Who wants to fly at SAA? [Archive]

Gerund

8th Jun 2003, 20:40

I have heard through the grapevine that it is black people only. Well, maybe coloured people too. Perhaps also people who are not that coloured but, coloured enough. Now that's a thought. How do you know if you're black enough, or coloured enough, whatever that means? I mean, you think you are black but it turns out that your mother was black and your father was white and you picked up the black genes, and your brother picked up the white genes. Who gets the job?

Is there a bit on the interview form where they put a mark against how black you look? Is there a card they hold up against you? I am sure they don't ask you about the colour of your parents? That would be racist surely??

So, it must be a skin thing? So, if you have the wrong skin, no job.

What a sorry state of affairs!

B Sousa

8th Jun 2003, 23:39

Gerund, you may have a point there. Very similar to the FAA Instrument Card. Its Blue. When you hold it to the sky and it matches, its VFR, anything else requires an IFR Flight Plan.......
Where are We going with this???

Gunship

9th Jun 2003, 03:08

Greymatter at the bottom of the Doos Tassie's.

Let us get serious : Mate look somewhere else .. the country is doomed on reverse apartheid and the new SA will get people in as they wish untill it is like the rest of Africa .. and then give apartheid and white rule and colonialism as the answer to their greed !

Or listen to vandemr .. (see him online - but he is in READ ONLY mode) .. he knows he sits in cosy Europe.

Go and ask you local flying school what is the ratio of coloured students making the grade from ALL over Africa. (Where the CAN be washed if they are not up to standard !)

If you do not have the ability or quallity - stay away !

If you have - get selected like the new South Africa WAS just after the end of Apartheid when white / black / yellow and pienk was on EQUAL footing - now .. forget it - sorry mate - look in Europe or America if you want to fly airlines.

JollyGIII

9th Jun 2003, 20:12

Gunns...if you are finding grey matter at the bottom of your glass of tassies it means that the vineyard is distilling grapes with lead piping. This is not actually wine, but rather some thing more like a Colditz brew. There are certain well-known dangers associated with lead poisoning and I have absolutely no idea what they are. Acute impotence could be one of them. I suggest filtering your tassies throuh your socks. Although that might also have health implications. Life is so complicated.

Gunship

9th Jun 2003, 21:19

:O :p :O Ja good one boet ... good one ...

Listen you should get a job at Spoories with that run - away tongue :p

Serious : Some of you guys might have remembered Terry H .... he went to Spoories selction with a bangle(s) on ... He told us he did not make it because of the bangle.

Well how has things changed in 23 years ... yes Terry that was 23 years ago :o

JollyGIII

9th Jun 2003, 21:58

Gunns, this tongue has got me into trouble on occasion already - luckily no unwanted pregnancies though. ;)

I think it is appalling that (alleged?) drug smugglers and exam cheaters have deceived the SAA selection board and slithered their way into positions that other people would have gratefully accepted. I know what is particularly disheartening for pilot applicants is the lack of info or feedback on the hiring situation at SAA. I know that the airline is not obliged to give any, but it can have big financial implications for those that have undergone the full selection process, heard nothing, and are now faced with decisions about accepting training bonds and the like with their current employers or potential others. Maybe SAA should have a 'holding pool' of pilots who have passed the selection process and now simply have to await for a vacancy.

Like I said in my first posting, if you work for SAA and/or you are in the know, share it with us.

cpt hamna sheeda

10th Jun 2003, 14:41

So there is no chance for a dutchman with a CRJ100/700 rating and 1500hrs on type and Africa experience for a job with SAExpress??

Cheers

nomoneynowek

11th Jun 2003, 03:04

On the contrary, you have 2 chances...........zero and f:mad: all!!

Sorry, couldn't resist:p

cpt hamna sheeda

11th Jun 2003, 15:14

No worries, that's what i thought allready.

BAKELA

11th Jun 2003, 17:30

JG, read the "SA Airlink for sale" thread. Press your chances there (and good luck) but if I were you I would not go near SAX - read the threads on this forum about that outfit. I think there is too much uncertainty about where SAX will be positioned in a couple of months - remember that SAA shouts the odds there now. The stuff at the bottom of the Tassies relating to SAX is mud not even grey stuff.

JollyGIII

11th Jun 2003, 20:20

So has nobody got any thoughts on the SAA hiring issue? No rumours/facts/speculation? Anything at all????

Maybe nobody's interested. They just don't want to play anymore :( sob :(

BAKELA - I agree, things change often at SAX. One moment the RJs are being sold, next moment they are keeping them. A year ago there was talk of furloughing crew (did they in the end?), then I believe everyone got bonuses.

Hamna Sheeda - as far as I know there are no airlines in SA that employ non-SA citizens/residents. Are you from Holland? ;)

cpt hamna sheeda

11th Jun 2003, 23:40

Yep, a real dutch dutchman.....

126,7

11th Jun 2003, 23:54

Yep, a real dutch dutchman...

I suppose you dont get any dutcher than that.:}

saywhat

12th Jun 2003, 16:30

Seems that intakes have been suspended, on orders from the real CEO 'Thabo". Roumour has it that only previously disadvantaged real rich green fellows are allowed to join for now. Latest rumour in the coridores is that the selection board all resigned over the last intake for some or other reason. There are more rumours that there are a lot of retirements next year, and SAA will need more pilots than they can get through the affermative route, so perhaps some guys might get lucky.

I wish all those trying to get in all the best of luck, as that what you need. It is a great place to work, despite the politics and rumours.

linuxgal

13th Jun 2003, 02:48

There is a strong possibility of intakes this year, total 20 spread from Aug to Dec. The intakes will be from the industry in general, with perhaps 2 or 3 EE pilots.

There is a lot of discussion on this forum about affirmative action in SAA and aviation. I don't want to pee on anyone's battery but if you received free flying training through the SAAF in years gone by, when anyone who was not a not pale male could get knotted, then remember things have worked both ways. Also I can assure you that from the mixture of copilots I have had, that it is not dependent on your background as to your attitude and ability.

Affirmative action is a reality which won't go away and there is tremendous pressure on all business in SA at the moment. Some people in SAA are at least trying to make the transition managed as best it can be, and try and make sure that the standards are maintained. However, Flight Ops does not have the weight to refuse orders from Cabinet.

It's a big pendulum which has swung the other way for now, but will settle eventually. I feel great compassion for those who are waiting to get into SAA. As saywhat says, it's not perfect but still the finest place to work and worth the wait. Hang in there, think positive, and make the most of where you are at the moment.
Good luck.

flyboy6876

13th Jun 2003, 12:07

Affirmative action was not supposed to exclude anyone, but was meant to ensure that ALL people were given an equal opportunity at a position. However, what has actually occurred is not affirmative action - people are being excluded because of the colour of their skin, not because they do not have the qualifications. This is racism, and this time around its aimed at the whites.

Affirmative action has cost South Africa dearly in the last 8 or so years. There are a number of people I know who took redundancy - foor fairly good sums - so that non-whites could step into the positions. In many cases, these same redundant people have been hired back as contractors for ridiculous sums of money to do the job.

I cannot accept that an organisation will allow less qualified or able people to take responsible positions simply because they are black. This has happened in SA sport and in many businesses and the consequences are well known. This is the 21st Century and people should be aware of what they are doing and there should be no employement on the basis of skin colour etc.

And please don't tell me that the blacks have not had the opportunity of education etc. SA has now been run by the ANC for 9 years, which should mean that anyone of the age to look for a cadetship with SAA has had at least 9 years of education. Or is it simply that the education system is not working.

SAA is the same as any other company - they are following blatently racist requirements set by the government which is excluding people with the relevant qualifications from getting employment.

Sorry folks - I feel very strongly about affirmative action as it is so damaging - rant off now :ugh:

vrottels

13th Jun 2003, 14:12

flyboy6876

You said It so well, It brought tears to my eyes man.

But you know what, this Is because we can not stand together in this country and allow the goverment to carry on with what they want to do.

We should ask for sanctions against SA, due to racism!

This Is how the ANC used to apply leverage....and it worked!

Vrottels
:sad:

saywhat

15th Jun 2003, 15:07

In response to flyboy6876, Affermative Action is by it's very nature there to exclude some in order to try to as our government says level the playing foeld. I personally do not agree with the principle, as I feel that it is no more fair that what the previous government policy was.

The reality is however, that we in this country must accept the policy as it is being enforced, as nothing that we do will change the laws that have been written. I know that it is easy for me to say that, as I am employed by SAA, but the same applies to all organizations inside and outside flying. We still live in the greatest place with the greatest people, and are very fortunate in the flying fraternity that ALL pilots still need to have a pilots license.

I do feel for all those who are batteling to get in, but from my very limited experience, it seems that SAA will need more pilots that AA will be able to provide.

Hang in there and remember that there is at least no more age limit for joining.

One more point, if you are reading this, and you have not updated your CV, there is no time like the present.

Fly safe

AfricanSkies

19th Jun 2003, 23:32

What will happen if this twisted state of affairs is allowed to continue is that the entire system will be degraded.

If people are allowed to give jobs to their own choice of person without regard to qualification, eventually the structure of society will be warped and the quality of life for everybody within that society, no matter whether you're a rich boy from Lonehill or a poor boy from Alex, will become worse.

A job is not, contrary to the belief of many of our brethren, an end in which it is justifiable to langusih in ingnorance and apathy. It is an integral part of an operation which has to run well to be successful. And the company is a microcosm of the country. If most companies within the country are not efficient, the country as a whole is worth less. Unfortunately, the most important 'company' in a country, the civil service, which services the fabric of the country as a whole, is usually the first and worst affected.

The apathy of South African citizens, all of them, not just the whites, towards afficrmative action WILL result in South Africa sliding backwards into the African morass and becoming a more desperate place for all to live in.

Witness the cities in countries which the colonial powers abandoned decades ago. The broken traffic lights hang from bent poles at intersections where skinny policemen in ill-fitting uniforms disinterestedly wave clapped-out vehicles along from all directions amidst a cloud of smog and dust....there's no streetlights, intermittent electricity supplies and questionable water. Telephones work occasionally. Hospitals are understocked, understaffed and dirty. Foreign aid disappears.
There is no recourse to the law. Money paves the way. Might rules.

It is still stoppable at the stage South Africa finds itself in. But there is a critical point, and once that point is reached, the inexorable slide backward gathers speed. We will witness an industrial revolution in reverse.

What did Zimbabwe use for light before candles?

...electricity

makes you think, doesn't it?

Deanw

20th Jun 2003, 00:47

More like:

Makes you want to drink :E

B Sousa

20th Jun 2003, 03:05

Up above posting regarding the Pendulum. You folks cant in your wildest dreams believe that the new guys would not rob the piggy bank just to get even.....After so many years of not having any say.
Problem is they are having so much fun its gonna be some time before it even slows down. So if its twenty years or so most here looking for a job had better have found another career.
Time is what young pilots dont have a lot of.........

PAXboy

20th Jun 2003, 04:46

I think that B Sousa is right. We must recall that we are not just talking about 50 years of the Nats but the 300 odd years before that. I think that 25 years is the minimum before the pendulum will start to slow down (taken from '94).

Attitudes have to be bred out and new ones bred in - to all folks. During my last trip south, a relative of mine commented that he used to speak the wrong language (English, not Afrikaans) now his skin is the wrong colour. True but it is the way it is and Affirmative Action is set to continue for a whole score of reasons.

Will South Africa decline in the way that AfricanSkies puts forward? Personnally, I cannot see how it could do anything else. This is Africa and that is what Africa does to itself. Perhaps in another 100 years it will be different but the example of the last 100 years says it will not.

I used to think that the country could be the powerhouse of Africa that we all hoped when '94 happened. Now - I don't think so. For those of us that have lived through the change it is particularly painful but in another 25/50 years? They will say that it has always been 'this' way.

Warlock2000

20th Jun 2003, 15:17

...'if you received free flying training through the SAAF in years gone by..."

Just to set the record sraight, training in the SAAF was not for FREE. Unlike aspirant civilain pilots who can resit exams and take flight tests as many times as it takes (or they can afford) to pass, opportunities to continue a military pilot's course after failure were few. Further, pilots were (and probably still are) bound by a legal contract which was paid off by remaining in service for a certain number of years (much like a training bond in some airlines). Should the pilot decide to leave the SAAF before that time he would have to buy himself out!

I have no problem with people of any race or creed performing a job as long as they DESERVE the appointment to that postion, affirmative action is a load of bollocks and is driving a great country into the ground! To accept it is to fail.

George Tower

20th Jun 2003, 17:13

In addition to all the views and sentiments of previous posts, one thing must also be taken into account. Any black or coloured pilots will always bear the burden of being the beneficiaries of Affirmative Action and always having to answer the charge that their colour or their sex got them where they are.

There are many black and coloured elite sportsmen and women who are representing SA as of right - they are the best. The United Cricket Board acknowledged the credibilty problem that quotas produced and has dropped the policy much to the dismay of the ANC (particularly the Youth League - breeds confidence for the country's future:sad: ). Continuing the analogy of the top players today they are where they are not through quota's but if they are the beneficiary of any policy it is the development program which was organised by the sport itself not from central government. Providing opportunity where previosuly there has been none is laudable and necessary but filling any professional position in any organisation based on race or sex as opposed to merit is wrong.

supatiger

23rd Jun 2003, 15:38

Everyone wants to work for spoories, you have complete freedom to use 121.5 as your personal chat frequency.:ok:

BAKELA

24th Jun 2003, 18:25

Supatiger, Everyone wants to work for spoories
You must eat your weetbix bru and stop smoking them. :} :} I wouldn't touch them with a broken broomstick over a f:mad:d telephone line.:E

4granted

25th Jun 2003, 03:17

How are you doing?

What distro are you running?
Please send my regards to Jo down in Cape Town. Motherhood.....mmmm and flying now theres a thing.
All the best.
hb4g:cool:

supatiger

25th Jun 2003, 14:24

I suppose sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. I wouldn't work for spoories either.:yuk:

WildFrequency

26th Jun 2003, 01:37

I certain, very capable, young airline pilot (non AA candidate) has been invited by the great Ivory Tower to go for a "simulator checkride". Only has done interview, round one. He received the phonecall a few days back. This is not rumour but facts....now what is SAA up too :hmm: :hmm:

chrislikesblue

26th Jun 2003, 06:06

I have to admit that affirmative action as a policy is wrong in its definition because uses the word 'colour'.We live in the 21st century and the word 'colour' should be used only for things,not for people as people have no 'colour'.The result of affirmative action in a lot of companies might seem beneficial for some people but if affirmative action did not exist, it would be a lot more beneficial for some other people.Look at all the charter companies in Lanseria for example,do you see a lot of 'black 'people taking jobs?Look at all the other southafrican companies that operate out of South Africa and are operated by these 'afrikaans',do you see many black people working for those companies?That's why affirmative action exists,to keep a balance,I don't personally see anything wrong with that.

126,7

26th Jun 2003, 12:39

The charter companies at Lanseria run by those "afrikaans" folks are probably not forced by the government to take the person of colour rather than the pale version because they recruit pilots who already have a licence and not train cadetts from scratch.
Companies where the government holds shares in(ie. parastatels) have no such choice and they have to pay the extra cost of training somebody, otherwise the intake in staff of colour would be too low. I would personally take the best man/woman for the job regardless of colour, but based on achievements and school reports if no other achievements available. This would seem fair to me, and probably cheaper too, giving me the best possible candidate for the job.

Cardinal Puff

27th Jun 2003, 20:33

...are also playing the spoories game by taking their cadets on as crew. This leads to less jobs available for those of us who did it the hard way.

Blueliker, when you have to sit and wait out a jobless period with the qualifications needed to enter the company while a less skilled/qualified individual is handed the job on a plate because of his/her skin colour, that's just plain racism. I can see your next argument being that it's what was done in the past. Well, the answer to that is that two wrongs do NOT make a right and that the whole hair pulling excercise was supposed to rid South Africa of discrimination based on race, gender, age and a multitude of other factors.

AA is wrong!

George Tower

27th Jun 2003, 23:22

Looks like another wind-up merchant has returned to the forum - lecturing us on the merits of affirmative action.

SortieIII

28th Jun 2003, 14:59

Wild Frequency, I don't think there is anything sinister behind the sim-check! Rumour has it that this is now SOP.

skyvan

28th Jun 2003, 17:51

No rumour, the new recruitment policy requires a sim check of all shortlist pilots. Also, AA is taken into account during interview stage, but I have been told that the Simcheck is a pass/fail item, with no discussion entered into.

No, I don't know which sim it is, just that the sim checkers are very senior (i.e. close to retirement) to minimise any potential "indue influence"

It may not be perfect, but at least they are trying to be fair.