O'Connor Airlines pilot busted for drugs! [Archive]

Winstun

8th Jun 2003, 16:06

Fully aware of what methadone is, and of course not saying it is an acceptable or good thing for a pilot to be on. :rolleyes:
However............. this is a very rare one off case hyped by the media, and again, big deal! My point on behalf of the good fare paying pax is that there are hundreds of alcoholic airline pilots plying the skies everyday, and the probability of the public being taken out by one that has a heart attack, hangover, bad nights sleep, etc. are far greater. Yes, comparing alcohol to methadone is plain ignorant. Your ignorance. Methadone is a non-issue.:ooh:

Kaptin M

8th Jun 2003, 17:09

Winstun:Several hundred alcoholic airline pilots getting around the place

Alcoholism is a medical condition, Winstun.
I seriously doubt that YOU - of all people - would be privvy to any information to support your ridiculous statement.
If so - "for the wider audience" - and "on behalf of the good fare paying pax", state the source from where you gleaned this, along with other statistics that would have accompanied any such article.

At least "the good fare paying pax", pilots, and crew can feel safe whilst we see Winstun's posts here.

It means he's locked away on a computer and NOT near an aeroplane. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/shootingsoldier.gif

Winstun

8th Jun 2003, 17:52

It's not rocket science, Kaptin. The massive extent of alcoholism in Australian society is a matter of public record. And that includes pilots. :rolleyes:

FiveTanks?

8th Jun 2003, 21:15

Winston

You are really going to have to learn to box a bit smarter. The good Kaptin has easily nailed you several times now.

Being an amateur student of human nature myself, it does intrigue me why an obviously intelligent person, as you undoubtably are, would retreat so quickly to the type of argument one expects from an adolescent.

My personal view is that you are one of the previous protagonists (schlonger, xx et al), coming back for another hiding.

Perhaps I am wrong, and you are an individual new to the forum articulating your own frustations at life and the systems we endure. If this is the case I give you the same advice as I would give to my 25 yr old son. Learn to understand how things work!

Winstun

8th Jun 2003, 21:41

The good Kaptin has easily nailed you several times now. The ONLY constructive input of the Kaptin I have seen to date is his use of colored font. If this is the case I give you the same advice as I would give to my 25 yr old son. Still being daddy to a 25 year old does not compliment your parenting abilities. :rolleyes: Nothing constuctive to add to this topic? In this case, I give you the same advice I give to my dog. Sit, boy....:zzz:

Kaptin M

9th Jun 2003, 01:48

Let's cut to the chase, Winstun, :cool:

"State the source from where you gleaned this, along with other statistics that would have accompanied any such article", wrt alcoholism pertaining to airline pilots - as you touted in your earlier post.

You have now changed your story to "The massive extent of alcoholism in Australian society is a matter of public record."

Winstun = Dr Phil. Both unimportant non-entities!!
Both full of MIS-information, and public scaremongering!! :ok:

Chronic Snoozer

9th Jun 2003, 03:43

Winstun - is there a point to your inflammatory posts?

Its a rumour network, and rumour has it a pilot has been done for methadone use and flying without a medical. You say its no big deal. Fine. Keep that to yourself and start a topic on pilot alcoholism if you like.

Winstun

9th Jun 2003, 07:08

OK. My terminology might have been a little overboard. :O Please replace "alcoholic airline pilots" with "alcohol abusing airline pilots" in all of the above. However......... my point stands: alcohol abusing pilots plying the skies everyday, and the probability of the public being taken out by one that has a heart attack, hangover, bad nights sleep, etc. are far greater. Are the fare paying public now comforted by the correct definition? No. CS, alcohol issue raised to put the topic title in perspective. Methadone use rate by pilots is a non-issue to the good air traveller. :zzz:

Boney

9th Jun 2003, 08:01

Winstun

Methodone is a prescribed substitute for a heroin user. Sorry, not being a prude, but there is a big difference here.

SixStarAnsett

9th Jun 2003, 09:56

You know what's funny?

I think I smell 'bignoting' around here.

It must've started around.........hmm oct 2002?

Just my guess however.

SixStar :E

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bangin.gif

RaTa

9th Jun 2003, 10:07

I met a doctor once who considered anyone having more than twenty standard drinks a week to be an alcoholic.
I know plenty of people who drink this amount and not all of them fly, they are social drinkers and not dependant on grog (a drug). I doubt many would consider them to be alcoholics.
Now my point being is that if you are prescribed Methodone you are dependant on a drug. I reckon that the public whould take a much dimmer view of this than someone who could be classified as an alcoholic by having twenty standard drinks a week.
BTW sharing a bottle of wine with dinner four times a week and having a couple of stubbies on the other days will take you close to the limit, if not over!!!:(

Douglas Mcdonnell

9th Jun 2003, 10:38

Chrikey winstun I find it hard to believe you actually hold a licence with the crazy comments you have been making recently. I think you need to do some zip tie restraint time little matey!

one ball

9th Jun 2003, 11:50

Maybe win stun is establishing a name for herself with comments like the above and others. Trying to become another kaptin M or similar. No offence intended to kaptin M.

win stun sure seems to enjoy taking an inflammatory, opposite viewpoint to just about any commonly-held viewpoint that smells a little contentious. Seems to be more for the sake of it than conviction though because I can't see much point to win stun's ramblings at all. win stun tried to keep the hijacking thread alive with various angles, all with foundations in bull****e, to the extent of starting a new thread.

Just for a laugh...

win stun spouting "facts" and claiming they are official statistics. "...massive extent of alcoholism in Australian society is a matter of public record. And that includes pilots."

Define massive. Demonstrate the "pubic records'' validity.

"very rare one off case " On what report do you base this statement?

You sound like you've almost defined your opinion in your own mind but it hasn't quite solidified into a factually-based argument. This might be what's referred to as "going off half-cocked".

Not that I reckon I'm the yardstick, by any means, but if you want to be taken seriously then you will have to smarten up considerably. A few flaming, smart-arse comments from behind a thick hide are not enough to garner respect around here. On the other hand. maybe you just want to cause a stir and have a laugh with no interest in respect. Good luck to you, plenty of others do it.

__________________________________________________
In the land of the gelding the one-balled man is king

Winstun

9th Jun 2003, 14:57

Well, well. Some not unexpected agression. The first step in to dealing with alcohol abuse is to acknowledge YOU have a problem. Secondly, I am tired of this attacking of my good self and not keeping to the issues before us. But to oneball, "trying to become another Kaptin", are you friggin serious? Could not think of anything less appealing, less achieving.

I am not looking for respect. Just don't like a good story to get in the way of the truth.win stun spouting "facts" and claiming they are official statistics. "...massive extent of alcoholism in Australian society is a matter of public record. And that includes pilots." This is common public knowledge. Now, you have either not been to Australia or have your head up your ass.

Quote from the Australian Institute of Health & welfare 2000: Using conservative results, at least 7% of males and 4% of females were drinking at hazardous or harmful levels in Australia. The non-conservative estimate suggests that up to 14% of males and 8% of females may be drinking at hazardous or harmful levels. Australian poulation mathadone use: ever used: 0.5% recently used (last 12 months) 0.2%
Now, stating the obvious, pilots are a part of and reflection of the population. Alcohol abuse by airline pilots is common knowledge, if you want proof, walk into any crew port hotel bar or nightclub. I have firsthand knowledge of several pilots that have experienced many problems including alcoholism, depression, and suicide.

Boney, if you knew something about medicine, you would know that heroin is far less damaging to the the human brain and body. It is quite obvious the probability of both pilots up front on your flight being dependant on methadone is remote. The probability of both pilots being alcohol abusers (and the health effects that go with it) is far greater, and should be of more concern to the fare paying public. :mad:

FiveTanks?

9th Jun 2003, 17:59

Gidday Winston

I guess you never partake of the demon drink yourself, might slow down those well honed reflexes.
What do you think has caused your thought processes to lead you into a situation where, on a public forum frequented by your peers you are being vilified for your views and are seen, by and large as a clown?

As for the poor fellow from O'Connors, I feel for him. None of us know what his personal circumstances were that led to this, but I suspect he has had his medical revoked under the provisions of the CAR relating to the use of illicit drugs which requires a clinical diognosis. i.e it could have been a one off experience some considerable time prior to a urine test or indeed before he operated an aircraft. Bang! thats it for this bloke, the hoops that CASA medical branch would want him to jump through to resume commercial flying do not bear thinking about.

Methadone is generally dispensed in liquid form. An enemy could slip it into your 5th rum and coke at the xmas party, ring casa and tell them you are a drug fiend. Casa require you, under a number of regs to submit to a urine and hair test to see what drug metabolites are in your system (window approx 6 monthes).
You never know!

Master of the House

9th Jun 2003, 18:39

Well i know this is a rumour network but i don't think this guy had something slipped into a drink. He faces charges of flying while under the influence of methadone between June 12 and Jan 30, alleged he flew aircraft between those dates while taking the drug, flying planes while his medical was suspended between Jan 7 and Jan 30 this year, failing to surrender his licence when ordered between Mar 8 and 19 of this year. Also faces charges of making false statements to dishonestly influence a public official - an aviation medical examiner. On the rumour side of this appearently when O'Connors found out he when missing until recently when they found him and appeared in court. He was remanded on $500 bail to appear in August. I do think this is a bit more serious than breaking the 8 hour drinking rule.

Funny how it was on the national tv news but not on the local Mt Gambier news. Don't Scotts (who have a share in O'Connors) also run the Mt Gambier paper and tv news....hmmmm

Winstun

9th Jun 2003, 18:44

I do partake, and quite familiar with it's effects on various scales.What do you think has caused your thought processes to lead you into a situation where, on a public forum frequented by your peers you are being vilified for your views Many here are quite proud to point out other peoples shortfalls, and at the same time agitated and upset when I point out their own weaknesses. However I believe the wider viewers are appreciative that I keep these jokers in line and prevent much misinformation remaining unchallenged. I certainly feel for this poor fellow and his problem. Which will not be helped by headlines: ........busted for drugs!" :mad:
PS: with further information to hand, give him 20 years!

Kaptin M

9th Jun 2003, 18:45

Winstun, the data you are quoting, wrt the Australian population in general, is - as you have acknowledged - public knowledge.
However it's a far cry from the bs that you posted earlier on.

No-one would deny that there maybe some pilots who fall within the percentages provided by the AIHW.
But again you "Winstunise" these through envious eyes, with your own version, "Alcohol abuse by airline pilots is common knowledge.."
Is it, Winstun??!! Again, please give us all a link to the source of this "common knowledge".

Of course you CAN'T!!

I very much doubt that you, Winstun, have any actual flight experience, apart from being a passenger. The nonsense you post here on PPRuNe is precisely that - illogical, poorly thought out, and non-sense. Qualities NOT inherent in pilots.
The probability of both pilots being alcohol abusers (and the health effects that go with it) is far greater, and should be of more concern to the fare paying public.
There are plenty of "checks and balances" to which flight crew (not only pilots) are subject, by their employer and the Federal Government - but not least of all themselves!
If you Winstun, feel that there are improvements that can be made, let's hear of them from you here on this forum.
To date, you've yet to make a sensible suggestion - so here's your BIG chance.
Somehow, I think we shouldn't hold our breath waiting.

I have firsthand knowledge of several pilots that have experienced many problems including alcoholism, depression, and suicide. I must say, Winstun YOU do have that affect on people!!

Time for a drink. :cool:

BTW, I see that one of your covers was blown, Winstun. :{

Winstun

9th Jun 2003, 19:19

Winstun, the data you are quoting, wrt the Australian population in general, is - as you have acknowledged - public knowledge. It's the same data Kaptin. Not rocket science to realize airline pilots are a segment of the population.No-one would deny that there maybe some pilots who fall within the percentages provided by the AIHW. Exactly. More than you would care to admit. I am familiar firsthand with widespread alcohol abuse by airline pilots. My sources, if identified, would have their careers jepordized. I am quite sure many here are quite aware of the extent of this issue.illogical, poorly thought out, and non-sense. Qualities NOT inherent in pilots. Kaptin, you have repetitively displayed such qualities, and are you not an airline pilot? There are plenty of "checks and balances" to which flight crew (not only pilots) are subject, by their employer and the Federal Government - but not least of all themselves! I am not suggesting pilots are flying around drunk. Much of the problem is, which you may suffer from, is the AIHW identified only some 43% of the population did not realize when there was in fact alcohol abuse occuring. Just as many are not aware their obesity is a health issue. Please specify exactly what checks and balances? Improvements may occur with education and discussion which I am indulging here. I am not saying there is some significant problem here. But in context with, and versus the threat of methadone dependant pilots, I stand by all my previous comments and rest my case. :mad:

one ball

9th Jun 2003, 23:11

I... rest my case Good grief I thought I'd never read those words. Do you promise?

No really... do you?

__________________________________________________
In the land of the gelding the one-balled man is king

Planned Root

9th Jun 2003, 23:43

you would know that heroin is far less damaging to the the human brain and body.

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/jpshakehead.gif

Winstun

10th Jun 2003, 19:56

PR, The first part of that quote was "If you knew something about medicine", which you obviously do not. I am referring to uncut, measured dose heroin (which is purely refined opium). But don't take my word for it, ask any doc. From my field experience in medicine, I can tell you alcoholic organs are not a pretty sight.:mad:

Planned Root

10th Jun 2003, 20:21

I am referring to uncut, measured dose heroin (which is purely refined opium). But don't take my word for it, ask any doc. From my field experience in medicine, I can tell you alcoholic organs are not a pretty sight.

From my field experience, I can tell you from discovering a number of young deceased people from heroin overdoses (accidental from pure & uncut), over previous years who were sons, daughters, sisters, brothers etc of many loved ones was not a pretty sight. But don't take my word for it, visit your local mortuary.

So don't talk sh1t. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/bootyshake.gif

Ralph the Bong

10th Jun 2003, 20:51

In all fairness, Winstun has raised a valid point here. That is that alchohol abuse is a very serious issue and IS responsible for far more deaths, injuries, assaults, family problems ect than Smack, but it is legal. It IS true that pure heroin is less physically damaging than alchohol; it is that crap that dealers cut it with and the lifestyle that accompanies addiction that really f#$ks users up. A mate who is a Pharmacist told me that if alchohol were to be introduced as a new drug tomorrow, it would fail every test required by the Food and Drug Authority in the USA for release as a lawful product. Illicit drugs have the capacity to generate serious, far reaching social consequences, as does alchohol abuse. In any event, neither have a place in flight operations. I did hear a story, by the way, that Qantas had the largest sub-branch of AA in Australia (but I'll bet the AMA, the Legal Society or the the Aust. Journalists Association would run a close second). If that is true, then best wishes to those who had the guts to admit a problem and took steps to sort themselves out. Interestingly, the CAAV require 16hrs. "bottle to throttle" if "more than a small amount is consummed". By the way, research done by Prof James Reason showed that the consumption of 200mls of vodka led to a higher error rate (subjects asked to do pre-flight panel scan 12 hrs later) than when compared to a control group ( by memmory the mean number of errors was 7 versus 2).

Part of the implications of this have been overlooked by all. This is, how the hell did CASA and O'Connor A/L let someone fly without a medical cert. This is really serious breakdown of administrative process by both parties. :*

Kaptin M

10th Jun 2003, 23:13

Ralph, you've been drawing too deeply on that Bong!. A mate who is a Pharmacist told me that if alchohol were to be introduced as a new drug tomorrow, it would fail every test required by the Food and Drug Authority in the USA for release as a lawful product
Alcohol is used in many medicines today - allopathic and homeopathic - as a buffer, by the conventional and modern medical professionalists and pharmacists.
Certainly as a "stand alone" drug it might well "fail every test required by the Food and Drug Authority in the USA for release as a lawful product".
But then again so would morphine, which is LAWFULLY available by prescription!

And our multi-personality freek - Winstun - who WAS a pilot, now emerges as a practitioner of medicine: - "I am referring to uncut, measured dose heroin (which is purely refined opium). But don't take my word for it, ask any doc. From my field experience in medicine, I can tell you alcoholic organs are not a pretty sight."

Man, you are ONE fruitcake, :uhoh: Winstun!!:uhoh: :confused:

And so Winstun - to re-iterate my earlier question - what CONCRETE alternatives, or suggestions are you offering??

NONE, I suspect, as THAT would require some grey matter!! :ok:

Ralph the Bong

11th Jun 2003, 00:00

M, I imagine Morphine has passed FDA tests, otherwise it would not be available as a persrciption pharmacutical. Point taken regarding use of alchohol as a buffer; its use as such is certainly harmless. You and I probably know as much about FDA regs. as a Pharmacist knows about the CAOs. Given this, the statment regarding alchohol as a new drug stands and I do think he meant as a stand alone product for consumption. Anyway, The real question should now focus on what organisational failings exist that led to this guy being assigned flight duties given that he had no medical certificate.

xer

11th Jun 2003, 06:02

The original subject has been lost once again. Is this story true. I could see nothing on the Advertiser Web site or O'Conner news page. Facts would be nice.

FiveTanks?

11th Jun 2003, 07:36

Does anyone actually know that the fellow had earlier come to the attention of medical branch, and had his certificate revoked?

Obviously not a reasonable mea culpa, however CASA may be making a case that he, in effect invalidated his own medical certificate by reason of having consumed the methadone.

On the other hand, if his certificate was revoked because of illicit drug use and he blithely continued flying, the $500 bail seems a bit on the low side.

I have known a couple of blokes who have had medical certificates pulled due to heart trouble, and no their employers were not notified by CASA. Privacy rules I would guess. And the fact that it would be a pretty singular act of stupidity for them to continue flying.

Brudda

11th Jun 2003, 07:41

A few facts relayed from my friend, Winstun.
Winstun has been banned from this topic.
Reason for ban: 'Generally being obnoxious'
Oxford definition of obnoxious: (adj) nasty; very disagreeable.
Winstun believes the impartiality of the administrator has been corrupted by powerful interests.
He also requested I post this fact for the wellbeing of all:
The information officer for the National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, Paul Dillon, said experts had been aware for some time that alcohol and tobacco were the biggest cause of drug-related problems and costs. But there was a vast gap between the reality and public perception. "People really do perceive that illicit drugs are the major issue ... [and] they don't actually want to acknowledge that their drug of choice is really problematic," he said. "For most Australians those drugs will be legal drugs."

one ball

11th Jun 2003, 11:00

I... rest my case I knew it was too good to be true....freek - Winstun - who WAS a pilot, now emerges as a practitioner of medicine... Pilot? Doctor? We've all under-estimated win stun.

win stun is obviously some sort of Delta Force operator living his own private wet dream, like Chuck Norris or Rambo. You know, a hero of the oppressed who can do everything from fly a gunship to stitch up his own guts, not to mention take out a plane-load of terrorists one-handed without anyone even seeing his "moves." All at the same time.

Then cut to the bar scene with a chick under each arm.....

Kaptin M

11th Jun 2003, 11:17

ROTFL, one ball - betcha Winstun would agree as well....only difference is he would be serious (wouldn't he Brudda).

Winstun believes the impartiality of the administrator has been corrupted by powerful interests. - actually, Winstun, I believe there were high level talks held between President Bush, P.M. Howard, and Woomera, about "your good self".
I believe it was felt that you were revealing too many secrets of international sensitivity, therefore it was better to :mad: you.
Just a hunch.

Woomera

11th Jun 2003, 11:41

Winstun and others

As soon as I see that Black Chevy Suburban with dark tinted windows parked across the road, leave and the dude who lives next door stops talking into the sleeve of his suit jacket, I'll let Winsun back in. :D

Perhaps I should've used a different word to obnoxious but it was the best I could think of at the time.:{

Back to the original thread topic guys:uhoh:

flyboy6876

11th Jun 2003, 11:49

Seems to me that the argument over alchohol vs drugs really is a moot point.

It was stated earlier in the thread that the chap in question was being charged with flying whilst under the influence of methodone. Somewhere along the line, I seem to recall that the rules state that one shall not fly while using ANY drug. Therefore it seems logical to me that the chap is in the wrong. Now, if a pilot was flying under the influence of alchohol, (8hr rule?) then he would expect to be treated the same way.

To turn this thread into an argument about whether a person is a druggie or an alchoholic and a pilot at the same time seems to me to be a wee bit of the point.

But then again, I'm not a airline pilot who is so good at writing resumes that I can fit all my pertinent information on one page, including all of my medical qualifications and experience, so what would I know.:rolleyes:

TIMMEEEE

11th Jun 2003, 11:54

Winstun, I dont know what your medical experience consists of but from my limited medical experience to brand several hundred pilots as "alcoholics" is right over the top.

An alcoholic by medical definition is " a person who has developed a dependency on alcohol through abuse of the substance ".
Now Winstun the difference between those that indulge in alcohol (including myself with great delight) and those that require it in order to function is the deciding factor.
I may choose to have several drinks in a session (or more) and get ****-faced, but may not need it in order to function.

Now Winstun, medical diagnosis of a true alcoholic reveals alot more medical problems and these typically include:

Alcoholic ataxia (co-ordination problems),alcoholic dementia (not restricted to old people),dyspepsia (digestive disorders),hallucinosis,paralysis,psychosis and a whole swag more.
As an aviator Winstun I have flown with alot of pilots over the years and have had the occassional heavy night on the booze, but never was I in the position where either myself or the other pilot could not function effectively or exhibited any of the above symptoms.

In other words Winstun you are way out of line and your definition of an alcoholic seems somewhat tainted.

With regard to the methadone rumour,this can be quite dangerous as symptoms of methadone may include increase of blood pressure,arrythmia of the cardiovascular system,central nervous system excitation and plain old nausea.
Not something to be taking whilst operating an aircraft or exercising the privileges of your licence.

Brudda

11th Jun 2003, 12:12

I can vouch for Winstun's medical experience, which includes field surgery assistance during covert operations in Africa and South America during the late '80s.

Winstun is unable to respond to your comments and assertions as he is banned from this topic for not being in agreement with most of you (including the administrator and his powerful airline friends). He has therefore decided not to look at this topic as he is unable to make any useful input, and will not compromise his views by towing the line. Freedom of speech is something that he aspires to one day be available to ALL Australians.

Four Seven Eleven

11th Jun 2003, 12:23

(Winstun) has therefore decided not to look at this topic as he is unable to make any useful input
Never a truer word.......

In light of Winstun's previously mentioned skills as a multiple ATPL holder, covert assassin, medical practitioner, recruitment consultant and various other areas of expertise, perhaps it is time that he assumed the now vacant title of someone else with an equally tenuous grasp on reason:

President for Life Field Marshal Al Hadj Doctor Winstun Amin Bruda, VC, DSO, Lord of All the Beasts of the Earth and Fishes of the Sea, King of the Scots and Conqueror of the British Empire in Africa in General and Uganda in Particular

maximus

11th Jun 2003, 14:37

I sense a strong similarity between our Walter Mitty type friend Winstun and our newish contributor Brudda. His first post was in the Chopper forum and it was very similar to Winstun's style. He's been quiet ever since and now that our aviating, trained killer Doctor has been flicked, lo and behold Brudda speaks up.
Marbe I'm just a suspicious bastard
:confused: