View Full Version : Net Jets " Two captains Per Flight"

foundation digger
3rd Jun 2003, 07:13
Advert in the Weekend FT for......
The Marquis Private Jet Club
"Two Captains Per Flight"

Sounds like Fun

Can you imagine the atmosphere in the cockpit.

Or do all you Captains out there fancy this.

Capt Crash
3rd Jun 2003, 21:21
What it means is that all pilots do the P1 course in the flightSaftey sim training. That said, there are times when 2 captains fly together and because we are very nice people it works out just fine. Infact it is rather alot of fun flying with another captain (so I have been told).

As for laying off FOs, dunno about that but I do know they are interviewing next week!

4th Jun 2003, 04:20
On the corporate/biz jet it is quite common to fly 2 capts.

My previous company almost always did it.

It allows considerable flexibility down route and never had a 'command' tyoe problem because we all behaved like grown-ups.

foundation digger
4th Jun 2003, 05:50
So is the implication that "2 captains" are safer than the more conventional senario.

In a previous life HS 125 American operation "2 captains" were the norm and they mostly hated flying with each other.

4th Jun 2003, 06:04
Like it was mentioned.. it happens all the time in Corporate or small operators. It lets ops schedule with more flexibility etc..

If both parties in the cockpit act professionally, then this equates to a perfectly normal operation. Only "old-School" airline captains with a (fourth) chip on their shoulder would have a problem swapping seats and command on every leg.
(hence them generally being inappropriate for corp/bizjet jobs)

Besides, whats the difference between P1 and P2? The FO will do the exact same stuff albeit from the right seat, so they are,basically, "captains under training" and should be respected and treated as such.
Also if two people dont get along, then what diff does it make wheather or not they are P1/P1 or P1/P2? Some of us dont have the option of asking our shedulers to avoid pairing them up with certain crewmembers.

Very "un-newsworthy" this..

PS When we fly to captains, people ask and we tell them about the 250hr "wonder kids" flying the BIIIG jets..food for thought for the SLF

foundation digger
4th Jun 2003, 07:15
So its not news, now its Tuesday.

Is the intent of the advertisment in the FT magazine to suggest "2 captains" is a more desirable senario than the conventional airline one.

Flexibility is an understandable consideration in all operations, especially small corp operators, but FlexJets claims in the same advert to have 500 aircraft.

More than BA, Ryanair and Easyjet put together.

Thats a lot of captains to pay for.

4th Jun 2003, 07:27
From a stagecoach driver's viewpoint, two captains always need more careful cross monitoring - everything is delegated and nothing gets done!

4th Jun 2003, 09:08
Been there, done that for twenty seven years with nary a problem on the F-27, Hawker and Gulfstream.

4th Jun 2003, 22:41
I once jumpseated with Ryanair prior to 9/11 and was suprised to find two Captains on the flightdeck.

Was this due to surplus capacity - I didn't like to ask!


Amazon man
5th Jun 2003, 00:13
In my company and as I suspect many others the Captain is cross qualified for both seats, on every OPC/LPC I will have a right seat competency check.

It provides for some flexibility in crewing an aircraft at times when no FO is available due sickness etc.

When operating right seat we are non handling except in an emergency and in my experience flying with other Captains has never created any problems. I would like to think that ones professionalism is employed in these circumstances.

As for two Captains in corporate flying, because of the sort of client you are carrying on many occasions and because the sort of people hiring corporate jets can afford it, two Captains are perceived to have twice the experience.

Flap 5
5th Jun 2003, 16:24
Normally captains are not right seat checked so under UK regulations they don't fly together. The exception is with training captains who are right seat checked. So PFO probably was in the cockpit during checking or training.

Some other countries do things differently. I know SAS fly captains together without keeping them right seat checked. Having had to be in the right seat myself during someone elses left seat simulator training I know how confusing it is to find the correct overhead switches when you are not used to it!

I personally prefer to fly with another captain as it makes for a much more relaxed flight when you know you have an experienced pilot in the other seat.

foundation digger
5th Jun 2003, 17:33
F/o s are not inexperienced.

They all have different levels of experience.
In many cases due to seniority based promotion systems an F/O may have more command hours than the nominated commander.

All F/Os have demonstrated the necessary skills to continue the fight in the event of P1 incapacitation.

For you Net Jet Pilots how does your company delegate resposibility for customers and aircraft when away on an extended trip.

Or do you take it in turns.

When I flew "2 captains" in corp ops (small 6 aircraft operation) there was always an individual deligated with overall resposiblilty.

5th Jun 2003, 18:56
The last UK operator I flew for all captains were checked in the RHS as well for the odd occasion when there was no F/O available, when in the RHS the only duty we could perform was PNF but our SIM check included a T/O, visual circuit and a one engine inop. landing, the landing being the most relevant part to cope with an incapacitation.

6th Jun 2003, 04:40
What do they pay their Captain's at Netjets and are they married to their pager???:)

6th Jun 2003, 16:53
There is no intrinsic safety problem with two captains operating a flight, given certain conditions.

Provided that they are both equally experienced (recently) at operating in either seat, provided that one is very clearly designated as the commander, provided that the company's CRM courses are geared to this sort of situation.

I can see many benefits of having no "captains" or "first officers" in a company, just pilots.

In other operations, where there is a much more traditional seniority structure, where one guy is used to operating 90% of the time in the other seat, where CRM procedures have difficulty in handling either reverse or level authority gradients, there can be serious problems.

In one of my previous companies, we had a series of runway incursions. In every case there were two captains on the flight deck, one a training captain. The VC8 which landed gear-up at BFS a few years ago was two-captain crew.

As I say, there is nothing inherently wrong with having merely two "pilots" on the flight deck, if the whole ethos of the company is geared towards this. But there are significant dangers if it is not thoroughly thought through.

9th Jun 2003, 17:20
Flying with two captains is not only done in corporate world. Quite a few airline, fly the 'big' jets with two captains when in ultra long haul and with one extra crewmember.
Some use a 'cruise captain' (ie a F/O with extra training) but others use a 'full' captain as relief in cruise or a mixed of both systems depending on scheduling requirements.
In was the case in my previous airline as well.
It pose no problem other that the same 'incompatibilies' you can have with any person, whatever its qualification.
As captain-in-training, I suppose you were doing quite some hours 'under supervision', does that pose a problem to fly with an instructor on the right hand seat??

9th Jun 2003, 18:03
Hug Monster:

I was told that the Viscount that landed wheels-up at Belfast some years ago was on a base-training flight for a new captain upgrade?

Such a flight would surely not be possible without having a training captain in the right seat.

9th Jun 2003, 19:09

Correct, it was as you say. Hence my point.

The problem where it occurs of operating with two captains is one of unfamiliarity with the right-hand seat on the part of one of them, with CRM courses not geared to reverse or level authority gradients, etc. etc.

These problems are far less likely to occur when the company's operations are geared to using two captains, where one day I might be in the right seat and you in the left, the following day the other way round, the day after that you're in the right seat with someone else, etc. - in other words, operating with two pilots, both of whom are qualified and equally experienced and recent in either seat.

The BFS VC8 incident appeared to be one of lack of exercise of any authority - after completing the required circuits at City of Derry, there was no evidence on the CVR of any checks whatsoever being done on the short trip back to Belfast.

9th Jun 2003, 22:40
Is it also true that the first thing the trainee captain did when he got clear of the wreckage was call his wife and tell her not to spend any more money!

10th Jun 2003, 00:17
As a lowly PPL I'm curious about something here - regardless of the "rank" of the pilots, surely for a given leg one of them is P1 and one P2? So in effect, one is Captain and one is FO, regardless of pay and stripes.

Otherwise how is any responsibility allocated?

10th Jun 2003, 04:40
This reminds me of a story I once heard relating to a certain airline during the seventies that is now sadly no longer with us.

Apparently due staff shortages or a mistake by the rostering people, I forget which. Two captains had been scheduled to operate a short continental flight with an overnight stop and return sector.

A major arguement started between the two captains on discovering this as too who should sit in which seat, resulting in near fisticuffs.

Eventually the dispute was settled peacefully and the flight was carried out uneventfully.

However The Captain who had won the day and commanded the flight had a surprise in store the next day. The loser (pre-empting a similar situation occuring) had turned up for work having sewn an extra gold braid stripe on too his uniform overnight.


(N.B maybe more situable for jetblast but i thought it as valid

:ok: )

Max Angle
10th Jun 2003, 05:36
We fly with other Captains quite a bit in bmi at the moment. All Captains are right seat checked and operate as PNF when in the right seat unless they are trainers. It mainly helps at our lot because they are short of crews and also can't organise themselves (that's being very polite about it!).

Crowe, the distinction is really PF (Pilot flying) and PNF (Pilot not flying). The Captain is always P1 regardless of whose leg it is and the other guy flies as P1/US (under supervision) when it is their go and P2 when it is not.

Personally I find flying with other skippers a nice change, a chance to catch up with people you don't see that often as well as a chance to remind yourself how much nicer it is sitting in the left seat than the right.

12th Jun 2003, 05:17

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