Air Canada *COULD* be grounded this weekend

[admiral ackbar]

The bankruptcy judge gave AC an extension until saturday midnight to try to get an agreement with the pilots union.

AC already has agreements with the FA's, mechanics and ground crews. Looks like the pilots have the fate of the airline in their hands.

On the other hand, if this fails, I hope that the Canadian government doesn't try to bail out AC. They made enough of a mess when they forced AC to take-over Canadian and guarantee no job losses for a couple of years.

Sad times for a once proud national carrier.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/30/air_canada030530

[tsgas]

Life will go on even if AC fails. Looks like they wouldn't be the last of the former state airlines to fail.

[GK]

Time to say good bye?

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1052251698350&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

[Azure]

Hey GK

It says you registered Dec. 1969!!!

Man, for being around that long you sure don't say much. :p

[Airbubba]

>>Life will go on even if AC fails. Looks like they wouldn't be the last of the former state airlines to fail.

Like United a few months ago, Air Canada may be getting a severe reality check after being God's gift to aviation. I've been there, done that, a couple of times...

[SuperStreaker]

Something that concerns me (and I'm not involved in commercial aviation) but with the job market the way it is, where will the 3000+ pilots in the ACPA go, that's a heck of a lot of qualified and experianced pilots out of work vying for (what I can see) as too few positions.

Interesting how this plays out.

[HZ123]

A very good point, it is fine to be cavalier about the AC situ but many of our colleagues depend on its survival. The latest SARS outbreak could not have come at a worst time. Lets hope it works out.

[Tan]

Hmm AC is in a rather unique situation in that the Government has said that it will not let the National Carrier fail. But when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is, well we’ll see…

[MarkD]

If AC fails can other airlines take up the slack or is that bilateral permitting? For instance could BA put a bunch of 747s on the YYZ route to replace AC?

[Cpt. Underpants]

So Air Canada finally gets a taste of what it did with such gusto to

Worldways
Odyssey
CrownAir
Ports O' Call
Nationair
Holidair
Wardair
Canadian and
Canada 3000

There will be few tears shed by the thousands of pilots, F/A's, tecchies and families affected by AC's greed and avarice over the years. AC systematically put each and every one of its competitors out of business while offering little in its place apart from an overbearing arrogance and tired old cookie-chuckers.

What goes around, comes around. Enjoy the ride, boys.

[Flexable]

Underpant you need a good wash and reality check.
Most of the failed carriers listed were CHARTERS at a time when AC very few charters.
Wardair was bought by Cdn which later was bought by AC.
As for C3 they bought overprice cie.

[Tan]

MarkD

I don't believe so but it's pretty irrelevant as the Government will not let AC fail because of the political fall out. There will be some sort of "made in Canada" compromise in which no one will be happy. I'm told thats the sign of successful bargaining agreement, all parties believe that they got screwed.



Cpt. Underpants

Or should I call you Superhero as your profile suggests? Your juvenile comments are not very constructive perhaps we could replace them and you with a rock because that would be far more useful. Grow up...

Be safe out there..

[Flexable]

The main problen is scope of jets up to 110 seats which are presently flown by AC mainline.
ALPA Jazz (AC connectors) agreed with AC management to undercut all flying up to 75 seats and bid for up to 110 seats.
Those plane are now at AC mainline.

[North Shore]

MarkD,
That is probably what would happen if the worst comes to pass. Hopefully all parties concerned will get it together before that is necessary. The last thing that the Canadian industry needs is other countries coming in to take "our" pax. We would kiss any career advancement goodbye...

[MarkD]

North Shore

believe me when I say I don't want it to happen!

I fly BA so I need AC to keep the LHR-YYZ fares somewhat competitive, but my fiancee is flying AC over here in less than five weeks, already booked. And to think we were looking at US YYZ-PHL-SNN but she was leery of flying an American airline if she could avoid it!

I thought the bilateral might be similar to Ireland-US [if we don't fly, you don't fly]

[Cpt. Underpants]

So, when rational arguments fail, you resort to insults?

AC is NOT the holy grail or some other religious artifact, for Pete's sake! Stop talking about it in hushed tones...

It's an airline. Badly run, inadequate and inefficient. How many years of profit have AC ever posted? As long as AC pay it's skybags $65K a year and ramp rats earn more than it's pilots, it should never be bailed out by the Federal Government.

It's a different world out there, in case you haven't noticed. AC belongs in a museum, along with all the other failed Trudeau-esque icons of a failed socialist state.

[alapt]

Couldn't agree more with underpants. AC should be, or should have been closed a long time ago. Sorry for the ones that lose the jobs and houses, but that's pathetic management for you.
I feel for the ones that will be hurt, I have lived through four closureswhile in Canada......City Express, Quebec Air, Minerve Canada, and Nationair!! Ths sh*t never stops.
By the way, anybody know where I can get a job!!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck to all.

[Flexable]

The airline's restructuring plan involves retiring all Boeing 747s and Boeing 737s and ordering 85 smaller jets with between 70 and 110 seats.

"To put this in perspective, if Jazz is successful in capturing the 110-seat aircraft, then by 2009 -- using the company's projected fleet plan -- Jazz would have 219 aircraft and Air Canada mainline would be reduced to 132 aircraft," Rainer Bauer, chairman of the Air Canada Pilots Association, wrote in a letter sent to the 3,150 mainline pilots.

"To say this is unacceptable is, to say the least, an understatement."

But ACPA president Don Johnson said the union has already met the company's demands.

"The company has said they need $257-million. We met that target in our minds and if Air Canada wants to make a decision that they need to shut it down because they can't get something different then I guess they'll make that decision," Mr. Johnson said.

Welcome to the silly part of Air Canada's structuring. Everyone -- pilots, aircraft lessors, bondholders, baggage bashers -- knows the pilots' union, called the Air Canada Pilots Association, will make some sort of deal. Equally, everyone knows management's threat to slap the airline into liquidation, perhaps to emerge in vastly truncated form as a subsidiary of Air Canada's Jazz feeder division, is just that -- a threat. The federal government is unlikely to allow a liquidation, lessors don't want to park their aircraft in the Arizona desert, pilots want planes to fly and Air Canada CEO Robert Milton wants to keep his job (though God knows why). Compromises will be found, even if it means the judge, who warned this week of a "cratering" business because of the pilots' intransigence, has to slap some union cement heads around.

[Tan]

Cpt. Underpants

Pardon me I hadn't realized that your initial post was a rational factual argument. If you wish to arguer that the ground workers are overpaid in some unions I would have to agree. Besides that AC is an excellent company to work for, unfortunately the Government chose to meddle in the aviation scene so now its up to them to clean it up. After all it was their policies that helped create this mess.

No one is forcing you to live in Canada if you don't like it here move on...

[ECAM This]

I'm an A320 Captain (Senior - A scale), raised in Canada, but moved to the USA years ago because a few co-workers (Former Voyaguer Pilots to name a few) were hell-bent on destroying my career.

Most of those coworkers are now working for Air Canada.

Air Canada's pilots are a bunch of Prima Dona's who WILL sink the already flooded ship.

My heart goes out to those who will suffer (the rest of the team), because the pilots are a bunch of spoiled brats!

Oh, I'm also on my Airlines hiring commitee.

[Tan]

ECAM This

Gee with your attitude no wonder they ran you out of the country..

And thanks I don't need a job...:rolleyes:

[Cpt. Underpants]

Tan,

I guess that the very contract that made you "semi-retired" and AC an "excellent" employer are the very reasons it will fail. The "sick if required" clause of your contracts are stuff of legends.

I did leave and am now very happy in my present company. Thanks for your advice, but I figured it out a long time ago.

The government "meddling" in the past was all in favour of AC, but now that the cash coffers are empty, you'll have to face that big old nasty world out there. No more bailouts for you, I guess.

If you don't like what I have to say, you'll have to come up with something better than "if you don't like it, move on."

Just my toonies' worth.

[ColeFace]

Regarding Air Canada folding,

I've been in aviation in Canada (and Africa) for over 30 yrs now and the majority of people I know want Air Canada to be gone.

The reasons are all well known.

I did go for an interview with them once but got up and left befort it actually started. and no regrets.

[Airbubba]

>>I did go for an interview with them once but got up and left befort it actually started. and no regrets.

I could never pass the tests or take the cut in pay <g>...

_________________________________________________

Air Canada deadline up

UPDATED AT 12:07 AM EDT Sunday, Jun. 1, 2003

Canadian Press and Globe and Mail Update


Toronto — Talks between Air Canada and its pilot union are continuing through the night, past the court-imposed midnight deadline, Air Canada spokeswoman René Smith-Valade told Globe and Mail Update Sunday morning.

"Air Canada Jazz is on the way to becoming Canada's national low cost carrier," Nick Di Cintio, Chairman of the pilots association for Air Canada's discount line Jazz told a press scrum shortly after midnight.

The main pilots group, the Air Canada Pilots Association, negotiated separately, but the Jazz pilots have been brought into the discussions, CBC reported.

"I am sure we will be a viable company tomorrow. The pilots have too much to lose," Donna Saull, a flight attendant with Air Canada, told Globe and Mail Update as the clock ticked to midnight.

"The pilots will work very hard," she said. "If they sign, I'll be cheering. We, the people who keep the front lines open, hope the directors and vice-presidents give up as much of their lifestyle as they have asked us to give up."

Travellers are nervous about what happens if they can't resolve their differences.

"It's almost overwhelming, the number of calls that we're getting. And I'm sure every travel agency is the same," Richard Vanderlubbe, co-owner of Tripcentral.ca, said Saturday afternoon from Burlington, Ont.

"The real problem is, we don't know quite what to say - other than go to the airport and expect service as normal," Mr. Vanderlubbe said.

Air Canada's Rene Smith-Valade said the airline's operations were normal for a Saturday, although its call centres had received numerous inquiries from customers.

Air Canada has been operating under court-protection from its creditors since April 1, which means that none of its assets can be legally seized without court approval and the airline's suppliers, creditors and unions are obliged to continue business as usual while the company works on a long-term business plan.

Several deadlines for tentative labour contracts have passed but the Air Canada Pilots Association, representing more than 3,100 members, remains the only one of nine Air Canada unions without a tentative contract.

On Friday, Justice James Farley ordered the two sides back to the table and told them to have a deal by midnight Saturday night.

Justice Farley had warned that if they don't, he would hold a rare Sunday hearing at 8 a.m. to consider more drastic measures.

One possibility he would consider would be some sort of court order imposing a deal - although legal observers have said this would likely be challenged by the pilots union and probably other unions as well, since there's little or no precedent for such a move under Canadian law.

An even more daunting possibility would be for Air Canada to be petitioned into bankruptcy - meaning its assets may be seized and/or sold by creditors, its current board of directors and senior management would likely be ousted and there's a good chance the airline would stop operating.

Air Canada lawyer Sean Dunphy told reporters on Friday that "we'll keep flying until the court orders otherwise."

While he wouldn't say outright that bankruptcy was under consideration, he said there was no way for the airline - which owes more than $12-billion and is losing about $5-million a day - can successfully restructure unless it gets its labour costs in line with its revenues.

On Friday, Air Canada president and chief executive Robert Milton issued a message to the airline's employees, asking them "to be patient with each other."

"Our company's existence is not being challenged by the failures of our employees but rather we face a radically different marketplace than we faced when we came into being 65 years ago, or even a decade ago," Mr. Milton said.

"But, as we go forward, we need to do it together and so I would ask you today to be understanding of our pilots. They too want to come to an arrangement which will enable this airline to prosper."

Many people, including Air Canada employees and industry observers, have said in recent days they can't imagine there won't be a deal or that Canada's biggest airline would cease flying.

"It's so big that no one can even fathom what would happen if they did cease operations," Mr. Vanderlubbe said, adding his customers continued to book flights on Air Canada despite the uncertainty.

"At least, if they were going on strike as they have in the past, you would know at some point they would settle this thing and move on. But it's a real big question mark right now," Mr. Vanderlubbe said.

Another union representing pilots at the company's Jazz regional subsidiary, who fly mainly turboprop planes and small jets, reached a deal with the company last weekend.

However, a lawyer for the main pilots' union said a key sticking point in negotiations Friday was the company's plan to boost the size of Jazz, its regional subsidiary, and shrink the main fleet flown by his clients.

In particular, the larger Air Canada Pilots Association has balked at a plan to have all regional jets with up to 75 seats to be flown by Jazz pilots starting next April and for each of the two pilot unions to bid on who will fly new regional jets with 76 to 110 seats that the airline hopes to introduce in coming years.

Richard Jones, lawyer for the main pilots union, said his clients had submitted a proposal on Friday morning that would have found other ways for the ACPA pilots to reduce their costs by $250-million - just short of the amount Air Canada was seeking.

But Mr. Dunphy said the ACPA figures had been achieved through "imaginative accounting" and "they're not even close. They're less than a quarter of the way there."

The report by the court-appointed monitor assigned to the Air Canada restructuring said the concessions of the other unions and non-union employees, worth a total of $766-million a year, could be undone if the pilots union and Air Canada don't land an agreement.

[rwm]

I worked for Canadian before it was runover by AC. I worked for a company that maintained a/c for Canjet before AC ran them over. I used to work for another company that was a feeder to AC until they were runover by AC.

AC has been bailed out a few times since they started as a private company back in 1989 or was it 1990. They started with new a/c, an excelent infrastructure, and no debts. Then their poor management made them in need of a bailout. They never changed their habits, and needed another bailout.

They would run an empty plane at a loss just to try to run the competion out of buisness, and as Cpt. Underpants has posted, they have run a lot of companys out of buisness. Good by to AC and no more of my tax dollars are going to that white elephant.

Let some other airline start up and take over from AC and run the company the way it should be run. It wasn't the government that made AC what they are today, it was poor management at AC that made them what they are.

Don't get me wrong, the government didn't help much, and they did help to add to the problem, but AC's problems are deep rooted and have been around from day one.

[JW411]

Cpt.Underpants:

Be careful; the next phase in your ongoing rational discussion is when you get threatened with legal action. I am sure that this will truly terrify you as it did me!

[Tan]

JW411

At least Cpt.Underpants has balls something that you're lacking...

[Rollingthunder]

AC and the pilots have reached an agreement. No further details released at this time.

[millerscourt]

Ecam This You say you are a senior A320 Captain and on your Airline's hiring committee.

How come on the Middle East Forum you went to Doha for interview and simulator assessment if you are in such a senior position? I note your excuse for your somewhat dismal performance in the sim which was a little feeble for such an experienced A320 Captain surely.

No one in their right mind would consider joining QR unless they are unemployed

Are you sure you really are what you claim to be??.

[Tan]

rwm

Air Canada reaches tentative agreement with ACPA on labour cost realignment

MONTREAL, June 1 /CNW Telbec/ - Mr. Justice Warren Winkler of the Superior Court of Justice of Ontario announced that a tentative agreement on labour cost realignment has been reached between Air Canada and the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA) representing 3,150 mainline pilots. With this agreement Air Canada has now achieved its overall labour cost reduction target.

As a result, a hearing before Mr. Justice James Farley of the Superior Court of Justice of Ontario will not take place this morning. Further details will be released later today.

It's business as usual for Air Canada and customers may book with confidence.

[jammers]

Business as usual you say......you could be right .....take for instance the new can of worms that will be opened momentarily when all the "Brotherhood" ( AC Canadian And Jazz) try to sort out they're collective seniority within the tenative agreements reached under CCRA..........the reality is the truly unsafe cockpit enviroment which is now being born today under the direction of a board of directors that are true criminals masquerading as competent managers and liberal cronies........pitting one group against the other in true miltonroviniscuesk fashion........

If we run into such debts ar to be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and in our comforts, in our labours and in our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people like them must come to labour sixteen hours in the 24, and give the earnings of 15 of these to the government for they're debts and daily expenses;

And the 16th insufficient to afford us bread, we must live as they do now. on oatmeal and potatoes, with no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account. but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains around the necks of our fellow sufferers,

And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from one principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second, that second for a third, and so on 'til the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery. to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering.....

And the forehorse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that and in it's train wretchedness and oppression.........

[skidcanuck]

Air Canada, pilots' union reach deal

Canadian Press

TORONTO — Air Canada and its main pilots' union reached a six-year deal early Sunday that cuts wages and jobs and clears the way for Canada's dominant airline to restructure under bankruptcy protection.

"It's business as usual for Air Canada and customers may book with confidence," the Montreal airline said in a statement at about 3 a.m. EDT announcing the labour agreement.

Details were not revealed pending ratification by the pilots. But the Air Canada Pilots Association said the deal provides the airline "with a significant contribution" towards the $770 million in annual cost cuts it had been seeking to stay alive.

"It has been a long and arduous process," said Don Johnson, president of the pilots union, which represents 3,150 members.

"No one is happy with a situation where salaries will be cut, and jobs lost. However, our pilots realize the gravity of the situation and are willing to do what it takes to help build a new future for Air Canada."

The cost-cutting agreement means Air Canada now has long-term labour deals with all its unions that will help the battered airline restructure its operations and become profitable.

But while Sunday morning's deal has helped the airline overcome a major hurdle, Air Canada must still reach deals with creditors, bankers and other stakeholders to reduce its $12 billion debt, cut its fleet and streamline operations under a new business plan.

The agreement with its pilots was annnounced about three hours after a midnight Saturday night deadline imposed by a court overseeing Air Canada's restructuring under the federal Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act.

The deal also averted a special hearing planned for Sunday morning by James Farley, the Ontario judge responsible for the restructuring. Farley had ordered the rare Sunday hearing to consider whether to push Air Canada into bankruptcy if it couldn't settle with its pilots.

Air Canada said it would release further details of the agreement with its mainline pilots later Sunday.

Earlier, the airline finalized a separate cost-cutting deal with the pilots of its regional Jazz subsidiary -- an agreement that helps create a national low-cost carrier as part of Air Canada's business plan to restructure.

"We are ready to set up this new low-cost carrier from coast to coast," Nick Di Cintio, head of the union representing Air Canada Jazz pilots, said early Sunday morning at the downtown Toronto hotel where the talks were held under a media blackout.

"We'll be doing all the short- and medium-haul (routes) across Canada and transborder."

Di Cintio said the deal filed with the bankruptcy court at 12:02 a.m. Sunday provides $56.2 million in annual cost savings for Jazz and allows for the creation of a new low-cost domestic airline with 25 to 30 70-seat regional jets.

Air Canada Jazz, the regional carrier based in Halifax, employs about 4,000 people and runs the Air Canada-owned businesses formerly known as Air Nova, Air Ontario and AirBC.

Before Sunday's labour agreement, the Air Canada Pilots Association had been the only one of nine Air Canada unions without a cost-cutting deal with the Montreal-based carrier.

Earlier Saturday, an Air Canada spokeswoman said the company was hopeful it could reach a settlement with its pilots. The pilots are the airline's highest paid workers and are critical to the success of any cost-cutting efforts.

"All flights operated as scheduled (Saturday) and we're preparing for a normal day of operations (Sunday)," said Air Canada spokeswoman Rene Smith-Valade.

Air Canada has been operating under court-protection from its creditors since April 1 and had been seeking to cut its $3 billion annual wage bill by about 25 per cent to get its costs in line with falling revenues. Like other airlines, Air Canada has been hurt by the slump in global air travel in the wake of the September, 2001 terror attacks, the Iraq war and a weakening U.S. economy. The SARS outbreak also wiped out $125 million in Air Canada revenues in April alone.

Air Canada has developed a business plan to reduce the carrier's size, shrink its debt, increase efficiency and pare its workforce by more than 10,000 jobs in a bid to reverse losses of about $5 million a day.

"From day one, we have always said that Air Canada's pilots were committed to see our company emerge from the restructuring process as a stronger, more efficient airline, poised to be competitive in an increasingly difficult market," Johnson said in a statement early Sunday.

"This agreement demonstrates that commitment."

Some industry observers have also suggested the federal government could step in to prevent the demise of Canada's biggest airline, at one time a Crown corporation until it was privatized in the late 1980s.

Ottawa has been reluctant to consider direct aid to Air Canada, but has been looking at industry requests to reduce some taxes, security charges and other fees the air travel industry says raises the costs of its operations.

As it negotiated with its mainline pilots, a key sticking point in the talks, according to the pilots' lawyer Richard Jones, had been a company proposal to shift the main airline's smaller jets -- and the jobs that go with them -- to its Jazz subsidiary.

The Jazz pilots had reached a tentative settlement earlier this week that gives them an opportunity to bid on assignments for 85 new regional jets that Air Canada hopes to buy as a key part of its business plan.

Many people, including Air Canada employees and industry observers, had said in recent days they couldn't imagine there wouldn't be a deal with its pilots or that Canada's biggest airline would cease flying.

"It's so big that no one can even fathom what would happen if they did cease operations," Richard Vanderlubbe, co-owner of Tripcentral.ca, said Saturday afternoon from Hamilton.

"At least, if they were going on strike as they have in the past, you would know at some point they would settle this thing and move on. But it's a real big question mark right now," Vanderlubbe said.

[ECAM This]

ME forum was posted on behalf of a long-time freind, who is not in possession of a computer, and who is not able to secure a green card and work in the USA, otherwise I would certainly recommend his application.

He attended the interview after his company (C3) closed their doors and has since sent several further applications.

[aileron]

Jammers,

Not sure about your ramblings on about life in England, taxes etc.

I left Canada in 1993 in the hopes of clawing my way up the aviation ladder. Five years of effort in Canada hadnt gotten me very far.

Ten years of flying in the UK has left me with little to complain about. I was lucky enough to make B757 Captain before reaching my 31st birthday for example, and have worked for the same company for the last seven years. (profitable in each one)

My parents still live in Canada and we often discuss taxes, insurance costs etc. I dont have any complaints about the cost of living here in the UK. Remember I get paid in £ not CAD$. Dont even get me started on what taxes I pay, health care, education, etc etc as compared to Canada. Ive lived with both. If life was as bad as you think here in the UK, would I be here? I do have a choice after all.

I would suggest that flying in Canada isnt what it could be. Pilots working for nothing to secure their first job, paying for your own type rating, etc etc.

Your posting is misleading, paranoid and full of union yuk speak.

No regrets in the UK.

Time to get my daily bowl of oatmeal, oops its called porridge over here........:)

[rwm]

I too have had to goto other pastures to make a living in aviation. In Canada there is work only in selected citys, and much of what I do is seasonal. It is crazy that for the resposibility I have, I make less than other maintenance trades. The taxman takes any extra cash I earn in OT and that is the last I see of it. You say I should put cash into rrsp's and such? How can I when I have a family to suport, and almost all of the companys I have worked for have gone belly up, and left me with nothing but bills from moves and relocation expences.

[Idunno]

Aileron, that post by Jammers was in fact a quote from a speech made by Thomas Jefferson. As one of the founding fathers of the US I always found it fascinating that there was so much latent socialism in his views.

He was of course correct...then and now. The subjugation of the masses continues apace and only the French workers appear to have the guts to stand and fight it.

[aileron]

Idunno,

thanks for the correction...my ignorance shines through once again.

maybe I should try France next.

Cheers