Hidden Marketing - Data Collection

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To all my colleagues

I was somewhat unhappy to discover that Pprune is using the Avenue A, Inc SpyBot (http://www.avenuea.com) to collect commercial data not only on EVERYBODY that enters this forum but also, in addition, on every move that anyone makes to any other areas in the forum.

This is an invasion of privacy and should be the subject of a disclaimer on entry with an 'Opt out' button available should the member wish to be excluded.

The very least there should be is an explanation as to why this SpyBot is being employed and to what purpose this data is being collected/used.

[CBLong]

My immediate reaction to this sort of thing is "chill out, dude"! :)

But, keeping an open-mind, can someone explain to me why I should be worried about some "spybot" knowing what sites I look at? The web is an interactive beast by its very nature - it's driven by people actively requesting to look at certain pages, as opposed to passively receiving a broadcast. In what sense are "spybots" different from normal websites? What information do/can they gather that normal web server logs don't/can't gather?

Genuinely interested...

cbl.

[topcat450]

and does it just look at which sections of Pprune I look at ....or sites I may look at once no longer looking at Pprune, ie my whole internet history? :uhoh:

[Danny]

What a load of utter b@ll@cks! PPRuNe does not use any spyware. All PPRuNe uses is cookies so that next time you log in your computer will tell you which threads and posts are new since you last logged in.

Get a life and do a bit of research before you go around casting those sort of conspiracy theories. An advertiser may set their own cookie but as for using something that tracks where you have been on PPRuNe... :}

Like I need the extra bandwidth and server load of keeping track of what thread 35,000+ people a day are reading! :rolleyes: The product you have referred to is probably something one of the advertisers uses to track you if you visit their website and it will be able to verify that you came from PPRuNe but that's it.

Grow up and if you are going to post this kind of rubbish then at least do it in the Computers & Internet forum! :*

[qwerty2]

I raised this issue a few weeks ago and got no response.

If you've ever bought goods or services on the internet then this type of tracking cookie is capable of associating your name and address with the individual profile of your computer...you are personally tracked.

Plenty of websites will explain the process which was pioneered by DoubleClick in partnership with a number of Secure Internet Vendors.

LATER:
I can accept that PPrune itself doesn't do anything underhand but if the advertisers are setting this cookie then we need to think about it.

[shocka]

If you don't like it, go to a spyware removal site & download their program & run it. You will find a hundred or more spy cookies in your system, not to mention browser trojans.

I'm using Ad-aware 6 from Lavasoft & it works well. Removed 160 first time I ran it.

Best part is it's free.

[knackeredII]

Dare I say it Danny, I thought your reaction was a bit over the top. Me thinks maybe you are working a bit too hard. Sure he may have made a mistake but as you should be well aware yourself, security is a sensitive issue on the net these days amongst some groups. A simple explanation would have been fine, oi reckon!

[snooky]

I was amazed at how much spyware I'd picked up, but regularly clean it all out with Spybot Search and Destroy as described and available HERE (http://spybot.safer-networking.de/)

[CBLong]

None of you have yet said what you find objectionable about advertisers' tracking cookies. It seems the term 'spyware' is rather general, and includes everything from tracking cookies, which seem quite benign, to obviously intrusive things like keyloggers that email your activity to a remote machine.

shocka: when you say you had 160 'spywares' on your machine, do you mean you had 160 tracking cookies? Or do you mean that 160 separate bits of software had surreptitiously installed themselves on your machine?

One has to wonder whether the makers of 'spyware blockers' are playing the same game as the anti-virus people and talking up the threat to justify their own existence...

Out of interest - those of you who feel you have been the victims of a lot of 'spyware' - do you spend a lot of time surfing, randomly downloading MP3s etc, installing new bits of software, and so on? Do you use IE, or another browser?

[McD]

I too use Lavasoft's Ad-Aware -- great product. :ok:

And yes, CBLong, adware/spyware does truly exist, and in very annoying amounts. Here's a recent article which addresses the situation reasonably well: http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030505/5128667s.htm

I had my browser hijacked once (just like the guy in the first two paragraphs of the above article) which prompted me to explore Lavasoft and others who make anti-spyware products. Thankfully Ad-aware found the culprit and notified me, so that I could take appropriate action. It also found other adware files which had been installed.

It's amazing how many adware/spyware/etc. products are embedded in programs! My mother-in-law purchased (yes, purchased, not free- or share-ware) a simple card game program, and it installed some junk files (mostly adware) in addition to the program. However, if you tried to remove the embedded adware files (unrelated to the game itself), the game wouldn't work! How cheesy! :mad:

Again, Lavasoft's basic Ad-aware program, which I use, is free to the individual user, so don't interpret my post as an advertisement for them -- I'm just a very satisfied customer! One note, though; if you go to the Lavasoft website, it's a .de site, not a .com or .co.uk

Back to the original question raised at the beginning of this thread -- I can honestly state that PPRuNe has never been a source of any of the spyware or adware found on my computer, in any way, shape or form, and I've been PPRuNe-ing regularly for more than 5 years.

[Bo Lux]

None of you have yet said what you find objectionable about advertisers' tracking cookies.

Speaking generally (and in no way suggesting pprune employs spyware), what I find objectionable is that there is no opt out from this stuff. Were it any other medium tracking behaviour, it would probably require one.

How long until someone hijacks a spybot to deliver a virus payload - probably not directly, but via a transfered site? . . .and before anyone says "impossible", there are some around now in which a clean email arrives asking you to follow a link and that linked site delivers the payload.

BTW, I am another very satisfied AdAware (free) user and if anyone wants a free firewall, Zonealarm is pretty good too.

(I have nothing what so ever to do with these products, other than as a user.)

[shocka]

CB long : The program I use (Ad aware) detects what they call spy cookies that track where you go on the net & then the collecting agency sells that data to commercial interests who will then spam you with stuff they already know might interest you.


The Ad aware program also identifies the source of the cookie implants which include the following, " valueclick" " doudleclick"
"ezula" "gator" etc etc etc .

I recently updated to version 6 which found an additional 160
cookies & deleted them.

I visit a lot of motorbike sites & suddenly I got spammed from Harley Davidson !!!

Not any more.

[qwerty2]

I think Spybot beats AdAware these days and is a definate download. This is particularly effective dealing with Avenue Inc.

Also take a look at http://www.widerssecurity.net/spywareblaster.html
for another good freebie

And for payware look at Webroot's Spy Sweeper ; probably the best of the lot.
It does a marvellous job eradicating bad cookies and is far more effective than AdAware at locating spy/adware.

[redsnail]

Spammed by Harley Davidson? Gees, I'd burn my computer if that ever happened. :D

[OzPax1]

I work as a Network admin for the this network www.bgfl.org (http://www.bgfl.org) . We run volera (http://www.volera.com/) catching proxy servers. We can gain all sorts of user stats from these Volera servers. Amongst which are the sites most visited, and guess which sites are near the top....! Yup you guessed it, Valueclick and Gator...! :mad: :*

[Ausatco]

This matter has come up more than once before and Danny has patiently explained the situation. This is a reputable site. I reckon he has a right to be a little peeved. Maybe if the thread starter was a question rather than a shoot-from-the-hip accusation the reaction might have been a little different.

AA

[Golden Runways]

Ooooh, 1 of my fave subjects. Spybot is excellent. ad-aware 6 is a bit unstable. but then free is free. as always kaspesky anti virus, zone labs firewall. GRC (http://www.grc.com), check your firewall. at the least do shields up and leak test. loads of tests 4 windows users, esp XP users.

Mr OzPax1 Sir, could U expand upon the type of user stats and info you can gleam? is this info just from your on site cookies, or are U able 2 get info from eg doubleclick/gator etc? does the info just include where the user was referred from, or is it more extensive?

Thx.

have 2 say pprune has never showed in NE of my spyware checks. Internet cleanup has it checked as a protected cookie, that's all.

[OzPax1]

As we are a education network we collect & monitor both inbound and outbound traffic (as directed byBecta (http://www.becta.org.uk/index.cfm) ). The traffic I was refering too was the inbound HTTP traffic onto & through our network. We can also glean form this info what web clients are being used etc. All this is quite standard as even pprune collectsn this kind of browser clients stats (i.e. what browser your using and at what Reslotion etc).

If you want to know more, go to the link I provided, or do a seach of the net on the subject.

At the end of the day all well run large web sites & networks (as the one I work for and also pprune) collect this type of data so as to be able plan capacity for the future. Saying that, this very different to what Gator and the like do, which is trick you into downloading a small peice of software that actively monitors were you go and what you do on the web, and then 'pushes' 'targeted' ads at you.

[phnuff]

If you have an old version of IE and don’t want to upgrade to 6.0, Opera, etc, etc, etc, you can download a free add-on like CookieWall to manage your cookies

On my setup, I have 2 firewalls, use Opera 6 and 2 antivirus systems (paranoid - me??), all set up to reject cookies, but the damned spyware still gets through and I use AdAware every few days to clean up

Now who wants to talk about ActiveX?

Not me for one.



This matter has come up more than once before and Danny has patiently explained the situation.

Yep, absolutely no critism of Danny and the pprune site at all. Just those goddam ads (which presumably fund our little part iof the web).

[Golden Runways]

OzPax1 Sir,

Amongst which are the sites most visited, and guess which sites are near the top....! Yup you guessed it, Valueclick and Gator...!

this was the bit i was interested in, sorry my communication was ineffective. is this sites Ur visitors have been referred from, or sites they go on 2 visit from you? or does it tell U what other sites they have visited in their recent session?

ads R a pain. i guess they avoid subscriptions tho. what i find most annoying tho is a lack of respect for my privacy by spyware/spammers. i would never knowingly buy their "targeted" products because of their questionable selling ethics. (besides do i really need a bigger......errr hard drive?)

most of my internet purchases have been made after researching price/product/retailers reputation. a transparent privacy policy helps a whole lot. i am fairly sure most of the companies i deal with avoid these crappy tactics, which is Y they retain my custom. and i make an increasing amount of purchases on the web.

[fobotcso]

GR, may I with some deference to your skill at SMS brevity and with absolutely no criticism of the content of your posts, suggest that you do not need to compose your submissions in such a way that they have to be read two or three times to discover the meaning of the content.

Ordinarily we all use plain language here.

73s, fob. :O

[Golden Runways]

Mr fobotcso sir, your location speaks volumes! I must apologise in advance, for I am a recalcitrant, truculent, smart arse. I know and accept this, but just can't stop. Old dog/new tricks type scenario.

However you do fail to recognise the difference between SMS shorthand and AOL speak. Here is a link to a free translator, unfortunately it only goes from normal English to the rubbish I talk, and not the other way. It will provide you with a pertinent, and perspicacious insight as to what it all means.

click here (http://ssshotaru.homestead.com/files/aolertranslator.html)

Try cutting and pasting your own post!

Ok, so I will make more effort to speak proper....

Back on subject, I have yet to investigate the immunize function on spybot. I must have a look. It must be noteworthy that AOL 8.0 has an ad blocker built in. Also check out pop up stopper (http://www.panicware.com). It's free, like all my favourite software.

The most annoying thing about these crappy tactics is that they exist because some people must be taken in by them.

NEway. i 4lmost m4d3 it thru 2 the end without resorting 2 sms brevity!

[fobotcso]

GR, Ta! What will they think of next?

I do SMS a fair bit, but have no experience of AOL; what is it, some kind of compiler? :D

[Ausatco]

He, he, he ....

No, fob.

AOL is a virus. A worm. A Trojan. A backdoor banger.

1T SuX

AA

[Timothy]

I have been forwarded to this thread having posted a new and separate complaint about Avenue A in another place. I apologise that I do not follow the Computer/Internet Issues area normally, because PPRuNe is a way to get away from the bloody things.

I notice that the issue of SpyBot immunisation only raised its head towards the end of the discussion. I have used all the products mentioned...AdAware, ZoneAlarm, SpyBot....and, for me, SpyBot with immunisation enabled works best.

I have it set to tell me whenever it intercepts a known pest (this option can be switched off, but I like to know which sites have an ethos to infect me) and it pops up an Avenue A alert every time I move pages in PPRuNe.

Like everyone else, I can say that I have no connection with SpyBot, I simply think that it is excellent. It is free, but the authors suggest that you might like to make a donation if you appreciate the software.

I read Danny's outburst at the start of this thread and I must say that it has a touch of the Alastair Campbell's about it. There is no question that PPRuNe is resulting in Avenue A infection. This is either because:
a) It is deliberate and to PPRuNe's advantage
b) It is accidental and there is nothing PPRuNe can do about it
c) It is accidental and PPRuNe could stop it if it wanted.

Surely, at the very least, we should be told which of the above is the case, and Danny, who we know to be a moderate and reasonable person, can then explain why things must or should be left as they are.

That's certainly all I am asking for.

W

[stickyb]

I have just done a brief test of my own, and it does seem to confirm that I am getting cookies from Avenue A and Valueclick from Pprune.

Started with a machine that was clean according to Spybot, went online through 56k modem, only to Pprune. Visited a few forum pages, closed down the link and ran spybot again.

Lo and behold, it found Valueclick and Avenue A had appeared.

Mind you, if you system is open to them you can probably get them (and a lot worse) from many many other sites other than Pprune.

Cheers

[Timothy]

Mind you, if you system is open to them you can probably get them (and a lot worse) from many many other sites other than Pprune.

I am not quite sure how to take that.

Do you mean that it's my fault for leaving my system open? (actually, I am simply proving that my system is not open, which is why Avenue A is trapped every time I change pages.)

Or are you saying that because other sites are worse, it's OK for PPRuNe to be the way it is? (ie because there are domestic burglars, it's OK for me to nick a Mars Bar from Woollies)

Surely PPRuNe shows the very highest moral standards on almost every issue, so there is no comparison to Russian porn sites or MP3 rip sites where I would normally expect to see warnings?

W

[stickyb]

WCollins, sorry, did not mean to phrase it as any critiscm of you. Just a general warning that general surfing on an open machine cam get people all sorts of nasties.

[Timothy]

...and my apologies, on re-reading my response seems much more aggressive than I meant. The tone was supposed to be more a sort of muse than a rant ;)

W

[fobotcso]

StickyB, me too. I've read all this with some interest as I am theoretically behind two Firewalls. The first is (allegedly) included in the software of the D-Link ADSL Modem/Router and the second is ZoneAlarmPro.

When I accessed the Web "RAW", ie not through the Router, ZoneLarmPro would happily intercept over 500 attacks a day. Since changing my method of access to the Router on Broadband, ZoneAlarm has been silent!

So I've just got Spybot and tried to activate immunise but I've so far failed.

So, whenever I come to PPRuNe, I get Avenue A and Valuclick tracer cookies.

There's always something to keep us on our toes, is there not?