Any Pilots from 'The Battle of Britain' Film Out There?

[seafuryfan]

Virtually all of us have seen this 'Mother of all Flying Movies' more times than we care to remember.

I have never read of the experiences of the (then) RAF pilots who flew in the film.

Are there any who can share their memories, and tell us how they were picked, what was the work-up like, how did the filming go, and anything else?

[Aerohack]

If you can get hold of a copy of Leonard Mosley's book 'The Battle of Britain - the making of the film' published by Weidenfeld & Nicholson in 1969 it will answer many of your questions, except the present whereabouts of those who took part. John Hawke, who flew the B-25 camera-ship 'Psychedelic Monster', Grp Cpt Hamish Mahaddie, who gathered the aircraft together, and Viv Bellamy, who was one of the British pilots, are dead. Connie Edwards, who headed the team of Confederate Air Force pilots, is still alive. Viv Bellamy wrote an excellent account of what it was like to be a pilot on the movie which was published in 'Flying' magazine in the 1970s.

[treadigraph]

The is also a pair of books by - I think - Robert Rudhall about the filming - the first volume is text and photos, the second lots of photos he couldn't squeeze in the first!

As far as I can recall it does mention the RAF crew who were seconded to the unit.

Think I got my copies from Midland Counties.

[vintage ATCO]

The B25 camera ship was based at Luton for much of the UK filming. Hmmm, got a picture somewhere. . . . . :confused:

I organised many of the ATC clearances for the filming up the Thames estuary.


VA

[Wunper]

I recall the B25 died a slow death in the early/mid 70s at Shoreham near the site of the present day Transair shop, it was flown in By Jeff Hawke and abandoned there presumeably accrueing massive parking fees until it was moved I forget where to. It wasn't locked and as an interested teenager I was all over it like a rash.

Jeff Hawke sounded like the sort of character that is worthy of a book by itself.

Wunper

[reynoldsno1]

I met one of the pilots in the early 70's. Many of the aircraft could only be taxied, and some that did manage to get airborne were rapidly returned to terra firma along with some very pale faces. ISTR him telling me that in the Spitfire he had to take his hand off the throttle to raise the undercarriage? Apparently one airframe had an undercarriage problem, and a throttle friction nut loose, so subsequently there was a period of pilot-induced oscillation trying to sort out the undercart and keep the Merlin going... Of course, my mind might be making all this up now...

[treadigraph]

Some of the actors were taught to taxy the non-flyers to make the scrambles more creditable - someone apparently adjusted the brakes on one of the aircraft overnight which caught out Robert Shaw - result, one Spit Mk Addie standing on its nose!

I recall reading Neil William's description of his first flight in a Spitfire and changing hands on the stick to raise the gear; meanwhile the throttle friction nut backed of and the thorttle vibrated closed....! Now, there's a question - how come Neil Williams didn't get involved in the filming? Too busy? Not a serving RAF officer at the time? Nor Mr Hanna... two of our greatest Spitfire exponents...

The B-25 at Shoreham wasn't the one used for the BoB - that went back to the US where, after a rebuild, it still flies, while the Shoreham one which was used for filming here in the early 1970s is, I believe, the aircraft in the AAF Museum at Duxford.

Cheers

Treadders

[Tim Mills]

Very much a 'right place, right time' for selection to fly in the film. Someone, maybe Hamish Mahaddie, maybe 'their airships', decided that QFIs from Training Command should be the annointed ones; and I was one of the lucky ones. Ten of us, including the Wing Commander boss started, but a couple were posted during the filming, so we were eight strong for most of the time. In addition, the BofB Memorial Flight with their aircraft were involved, we didn' fly their aircraft, nor they ours.
To start with, for conversion flying, we had a Spit two seater, and two Mk 9s, all civil registered, and conversion consisted of a dual trip, with someone who had converted the day before in the back seat, then off on your own for a couple of general handling trips. The weather was pretty ordinary for most of the time, and I don't remember going above about 700' for the first two or three sorties.
A couple of us volunteered to fly the Hurricane, Hawkers 'Last of the Many', and a Canadian one found in a barn and resuscitated by a talented Canadian restorer.
The Spaniards had about a dozen pilots to fly their Spanish built ME109s, and another four or so for the HE111s also Spanish built.
We got on with them very well.
In all I got about 50 hours Spit, 30 Hurricane and 30 minutes 109, great experience, great people, including the film people. Wouldn't have missed it; long time ago now.
I agree with the remarks of Treadigraph about the Spitfire skills of Neil Williams and Ray Hannah, but I'm not sure that either of them had flown a Spit at the time, Neil was probably a test pilot either in the RAF or at Handley Page, and Ray may have started his long stint as leader of the Arrows.
I kept in touch with Viv Bellamy and Geof Hawke for some time afterwards, but I'm afraid I have no idea about the rest of the gang. It would be nice to contact them again.

[ShyTorque]

Tim Mills,

Please check your private messages, Thank you.

[treadigraph]

The RAF pilots were:

W/C George Elliot
S/L Mike Vickers
S/L S St J Homer
S/L D J Spink
S/L D W Mills (says D W in the book I'm looking at, Tim!)
F/L M R Merrett
F/L D J Curry
F/L R D Coles
F/L R B Lloyd
F/L J M Preece

[Tim Mills]

Thanks treadigraph; actually it is DH, so they got it half right! But I've been Tim since I can remember.
What book is that? I'd like to run it to earth here if any of the second hand bookshops have it.

[Tim Mills]

Thanks treadigraph. In fact my initials are DH, so they got it half right! But I've been Tim since I can remember. I wonder if any of the second hand bookshops out here have the book you referred to; can you give its name, I'd be interested in reading it after all these years.

[Mike Echo]

Tim
The book "Battle of Britain" by Robert J Rudhall is available on www.amazon.com. From the write up it looks to be the second book.

Are you the same Tim who used to fly DBAL, TOMI, and BGOP with FJC?

Mike Echo

[treadigraph]

Tim, Mike Echo is correct, there atre two volumes, one is narrative and pics, the other just pics. Published by Ramrod Publications.

Regards

Treadders (at home for once!)

[Tim Mills]

Thanks for the info Mike Echo and treadigraph. Yes, I was with FJC and flew those. We also had BCYF, before OP, and borrowed a French one, F-BSBU now and again, which caused chaos with the French controllers when,as was, and maybe still is, their wont,they spoke French to French registered aeroplanes
Then left FJC and flew VR-CDB, operated by Fields. Great days.

[Chimbu chuckles]

UMMM...Mr Mills...well.....SURELY having wetted our appetites you're not going to stop there???:D

Please...all the nitty gritty...there must be enough funny, interesting stories from those 80 odd hours to fill a few more substantial posts?

Brgds,
Chuckles:D

[Mike Echo]

Hi Tim
I've sent you a private message ref FJC memories as it's a bit off topic.

M.E.

[Tim Mills]

Well yes Chimbu chuckles, though hard to remember in detail, only the enjoyment of flying these aeroplanes, the excitement of quite large formations milling about behind the photo B25, Spits from one side, MEs from the other, and mixing it a bit for the 'sky full of aeroplanes' shots, then reforming to do it all over again, then the sun being in the wrong place so doing it again. This sort of thing went on for quite a few days.
Better fun were the more individual shots, normally from a chopper, of a Spit chasing an ME, or the other way round, one of them smoking from a smoke canister and pretending to be out of control, the other following to make sure, luckily not to the final plunge, models did that bit!
We also had one of the two seater Spits fitted with a camera in the front seat filming through the gunsight, and I flew quite a few trips from the back seat chasing Messerschmits and Heinkels, and operating the camera. I think one or two of those shots were used.
My only emergency, and only a small one, was in a Hurricane when some bright spark repaired a hydraulic line which routed along the left side of the cockpit, with a rubber tube insert. Since the hydraulic pressure for the U/C and flaps was fairly high (1500psi springs to mind) when I operated the U/C retract lever after take off, all that happened was that I was covered in hot hydraulic fluid. Luckily the U/C didn't move, there was nothing left to move it, it was all over me! No flaps, but no problem landing back on a grass strip, big thick wing, so slow landing speed, and pneumatic brakes, so could easily stop.
Because I was one of the Hurricane drivers, I missed out on the South of France by Spitfire, where they went in search of bright BofB weather, sadly lacking that year at home. But during that time we did a lot of taying at high speed in the taxi only Spits through special effects bomb bursts back at Duxford. Exciting if you like that sort of thing, but not quite the same!
My first Spit flight was end of April, my last, in a Hurricane, mid October, so the whole thing was nearly six months for us. Great experience, great bunch of people, lots of learning needed by us and the film people, must stop now and watch the video again!

[seafuryfan]

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread, particularly you super sleuths and of course to Tim. How amazing that with the small amount of RAF pilots selected to fly in the film that one of them should stumble across the thread! :D

Tim, if you would like to read a softback copy of the Mosely book on the making of the film I would be delighted to post it to you - send me a private message should you wish to do so. There are some references to the pilots flying the aircraft, so you may recognise some bits. An intruiging part of the book describes how an ex-Polish B of B pilot studying the rushes complained how the pilots did not seem to be really chucking the aircraft around. He was encouraged by the author to see Guy Hamilton about it. Judging by the scenes in the film (particularly the high rates of roll observed before pulling back on the stick) the cabs could not have given it more welly!

Thanks for the memories - if you have any more, we're all ears!

[Tim Mills]

Thanks seafuryfan, both for your remarks and offer. I've sent a private message saying 'yes please!'

The bit about not throwing the aircraft about enough is interesting. Naturally, since they were old, some of them not long off Gate Guard or museum place duties, we did tend to treat them fairly gently when we could. And the large formation shots were all done behind the B25, which could go quite fast, but also a couple of slow He 111, which went at 160 kts or so, so the milling about bits were fairly slow motion.

But it was not always like that; I remember a particular shot with five or six Spits in line astern following the B25 flown by Jeff Hawke and an American fellow whose name I don't remember. Jeff liked to throw his aircraft around a bit, and we all hung on behind him, so it developed into a tailchase. I was somewhere towards the back of this lot, possibly in a twoseater, and noticed that the odd wrinkle was appearing along the top surface of my wing with the G. Bit like a 747 at rotate for lift off. We didn't have G meters, so don't know how much we pulled, and no damage to the aircraft, and the one or two behind me would have been pulling more than me. But it certainly made me ease off a bit.

Also, I think we all knew a bit more about the dangers of rolling and pulling at the same time by then, so the roll then pull you referred to was the way to do it.

[seafuryfan]

I wonder if that's the great bit of footage that shows at least 3 Spits in line astern in a tight turn to port ("steer 2....3.....0...!!") viewed from the front (B25 tail position?) with a wonderful blue background? Pure gold.

Regards

[Tim Mills]

seafuryfan, I have been trying to send you a private message with address and so on, to take up your very kind offer, but it doesn't seem to go; at least not showing in sent messages.

Could you send me a private message, they seem to work, and if possible include you email address, so I can make contact from this end?

Must look at the video again to find that scene, and any others I can nail down as being me! I know the reluctant Squadron Commander of the Czech(?) section, who went straight on while his chaps peeled off to attack, was me! But I was allowed to follow them a second later, so all was not lost!

Thanks.

[Mr_Grubby]

TIM.

Have you seen the pictures posted on this Forum on Feb 4th. '03 ? BoB Pics.

If I was clever I would put a link but I'm just too dumb.

Regards,

Mr G.

[seafuryfan]

Tim,

I read your private message thanks, and sent one back in return. The books (including one on BofB photos) are on their way. Happy reading!

And as previous poster has mentioned, check out previous threads for photos. Tiger_mate submitted some not too long ago.

Robert Rudhall has been info'd of your posts so he may come knocking on your computer soon :D

[seafuryfan]

www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80526

(BofB pics)

[Ex Oggie]

Interesting thread. One of my old QFI's from about 20 years ago was involved in the radio controlled sequences for the film. I remember him telling me that they used to draw straws to see who would be allowed to push the button to 'blow up' the models when required. IIRC they were allowed to keep one model each after filming was completed, so some may still be around out there.

[CamelPilot]

There is! In a military memorabilia shop in Badshot Lea, near Farnham, Surrey.

A Ju87 hangs in a diving position in the window. He has been offered loadsa money for it but he will not sell it. Never understood why.

[Philip Whiteman]

... and for many years Doug Bianchi had one of the Heinkel 111 R/C models hanging from the roof of the PPS hangar at Booker.

I remember too the full-size dummy Hurricane someone else had at Booker. This was another ex-BoB replica, and - although it looked quite good from a distance - things like the canopy were a single sheet of perspex, with the frame marked out in painted masking tape. My brother Matthew and I climbed in one after another and played fighter pilots (we must have been 11 and 9 years old at the time).

Tony Bianchi now says that he regrets not making the owners an offer for the thing, before it dissapeared. I wonder what happened to it?

[treadigraph]

There was also a BoB R/C Heinkel in the Aces High hangar at North Weald a decade or so ago - also one of the full sized CASA 2-111s was there as well, the one from Southend... where has that one gone now?

[Mr_Grubby]

CamelPilot.

Badshot Lea is just down the road to me. Sounds like my kind of shop. But I have not heard of it.
More details ????

Clint.

[Tim Mills]

Thanks Mr G and seafuryfan for pointing me at those pictures. I remember some as posters at the time, and even one or two of them joining Jimi Hendrix and various Beatles on my sons wall! Hope he doesn't read this; I'm not sure he would admit to it!

As a postscript to the whole BofB film episode, I was given the 'onerous' task of ferrying Spitfire II, P7350, the only one still flying which had taken part in the actual Battle, from Bovingdon to it's new home with the BofB Memorial Flight, then based at Coltishall.

Since my day job was as a Squadron Commander in Flying Wing at the RAF College Cranwell, my boss, the CFI, suggested I take the pretty route, via Cranwell for lunch, so the budding Harrier and Phantom pilots could see a real aeroplane. Since it sounded a good idea, and the boss's suggestion could be taken as an order, this I did. But neither of us thought to tell Coltishall, or 11 Group, to whom the aeroplane now belonged, so they were both a bit worried by the non arrival of their new toy.

After lunch I set sail for Colt, in company with a Jet Provost which had to do the R/T, because I only had VHF in the Spit. Arriving at Colt, in amongst the Lightning circuit traffic, the JP announced our arrival, and getting a green very from the runway caravan, I did a normal fighter command run in and break. Downwind on a curved circuit, gear down, and start curved approach to keep the threshold in sight past the long nose. Ease on a trickle of power round finals before lowering flap. No trickle of power! Only a large three bladed prop gradually coming to a standstill! Luckily, it was a tight circuit, and by delaying flap selection I was easily able to make the runway.

I'm not sure the Lightnings, probably using as much fuel for one circuit as I had used for the whole trip, would have appreciated their only runway taken up by a dead Spitfire with the pilot frantically pushing it to the nearest exit! I was soon joined by the Colt OC Flying, an old friend, and together we shoved it off before anyone became too upset.

A carburettor fault was diagnosed as the cause of my embarassment, and that was my last ever flight in a Spitfire! Quite appropriate, really.

[treadigraph]

A couple of nights ago I had a couple of pints and a very nice meal at the Jackdaw at Denton, near Canterbury - memorable for its starring role in the Battle of Brtain film alongside a couple of unknown extras called Susannah York and Christopher Plummer...

It's in the Good Beer Guide, food is expensive but very good - and there is an excessively large mixed grill with 32oz of meat if you possess a suicidal appetite and an understanding bank manager!

Ms York and Mr Plummer sat in the windowto the right of the door - the garden area used to be the car park, and the two vaguely discernable gentlemen raising their glasses to the right of the door were ballast and Renault pilot respectively for our mission - I served as Nav and purchaser of the premier round...!

Tim Mills - have you recieved any messages from me?

Regards

Treadders

http://www.tpsconsult.co.uk/dump/jackdaw.jpg

[BEagle]

Tim,

Thanks for your excellent recollections. Do you by any chance recall wen you went via Cranwell to Colt? It's just that as a very junior Flt Cdt I was marching down towards the South Brick Lines one day in 1968 - or perhaps '69 - and an early model Spit accompanied by a JP was in the circuit at Cranwell South. By the way - David Curry was my Flt Cdr at the time!

[Tim Mills]

Treadigraph: I have just tried to reach you on your normal email address, but got return to sender! Private messages through pprune seem to be a bit hit and miss, but will try again over next couple of days. Sorry not to have been in contact sooner.

BEagle: Thanks for your comments; date was 5Nov68, so you were indeed marching down to South Brick Lines, but I didn't notice you! Will try a private message to see if our paths did cross either at the Towers or later.

Regards Tim

[treadigraph]

Tim: yes I've had a few problems with private messages too! I've sent you an email with both my e-addresses included.

We've now decided to return to the Jackdaw this coming Tuesday with empty stomachs and attend to the challenge of the 32oz mixed grill. I'm off to extend my mortgage and make a will... :eek:



Regards

Treadders

[Tim Mills]

Treadders, don't know what has happened to comms between our two great nations, but have not received emails, so will try private message again.
And another thing; stop making me homesick by pictures and descriptions of pubs and proper beer! I have an idea it was you on the Shuttleworth thread not long ago, extolling the virtues of another within easy reach of Old Warden with Greene Kings ale; made me wallow in nostalgia for long summer evenings, watching Shuttleworth displays, and a decent pint or three. May have to leap, well stagger, aboard great metal bird again before long, otherwise I may be too old to appreciate the finer things in life! But we do have the wine.

BEagle, I don't remember Dave Curry at Cranwell, I thought only one from each FTS was with the film. But he may have arrived after I left, or my memory is bad. I certainly remember him on the film, he was the other Hurricane pilot, and was the only one of us actually to appear in the film. A young, good looking extra, gazing out over an airfield, waiting to do battle!

Hoping for success with private mail!

Regards Tim

[treadigraph]

Tim, got your message, will respond a bit later on... It's either the beer or the difference in spatial orientation - or perhaps the two are related! Sorry to make you so nostalgic (but then, what is this forum for?!!), but perhaps I can redress the balance just a little...

Rather than flog down to Denton again on Tuesday (and risk a gluttony-induced heart attack), we went instead to the White Hart at Brasted, not far from Biggin Hill. You may recall that this was the pub frequently viisted by pilots from Biggin during the war and many of them signed a blackout board by the door. The original board, framed and glazed, is now preserved in a museum - I thought it was at the IWM, Lambeth, but I'm told it's actually at a museum at Shoreham.

But the sad news is that the pub is now owned by a family foody pub chain (rather than a brewery), offers a choice of just two bitters (Bass and Tetleys, not likely to thrill my CAMRA mates), formulaic food and, to my mind anyway, all that rather spoils the charm of this historic, rambling country pub. There is still Battle of Britain memorabilia in the pub, plus a replica of the signed board and its story - which does go some way to keep the atmosphere of the pub intact... However, we went elsewhere to eat...

Sat underneath the replica board actually, signatures I can remember off-hand are Bob Stanford-Tuck, Johnny Loudon, Johnny Kent, Pete Brothers, Sailor Malan, Brian Kingcome and the excellently nick-named "Bush" Bandidt... I know Peter Brothers is still with us, but I wonder how many of the other original signatories are? Great names, extraordinary people...

Sorry, going off topic a bit...!

Treadders

[RabbitLeader]

I just came across this topic after reading of it on the Key Publishing forums - took me a while to find it, anyway!

Fascinating stuff - if anyone else has BofB movies photos, I for one would love to see them.

[Saab Dastard]

Talking of Jeff Hawke and the B-25 photo ship, was that the same chap who filmed the documentary about bringing 4 B-25s from the US to Europe for (I think) the filming of Catch-22?

I think that several of the aircraft were owned by Dave Tallichet and had flown from California

It was called something like "B-25s do fly in the IMC" or something similar.

Great film - I still want to fly a B-25 more than any almost any other aircraft! Except possibly a B-29.

SD

[treadigraph]

Saab, indeed the same chap - there was some discussion on this forum some months ago about it... The programme was excellent!

[ozplane]

A bit late on this subject but there is a He111 model from the film at the Museum at Hawkinge, along with several of the fullsize Spitfire replicas. By the way I think you were a bit unfair on Susannah York to refer to her as an "extra". She was already a star due to films like Tom Jones and was the only female in the film to be on the acting credits. (She looks VERY different these days on Holby City)

[treadigraph]

Heh heh, I meant Susannah as an "extra" compared with the aeroplanes...! I think you'll find that Christopher Plummer was well-established by then as well, certainly following the Sound of Moo-sick. She was a cracker: I haven't seen here very recently but I reckon she's probably worn very well!

[airgage]

I believe that Mike Vickers (who flew MH434 in the film) and was responsible for me age 8 sitting in the aforesaid plane on the unit , age 8 (something I would like to repeat -HINT) went on to work at the flying school at Kidlington where co-incidentally and without realising it he was the instructor when I under took an experience flight (and it was an experience too!) Makes you think it is a small world one way or another......

[Mark22]

The film was 'Hanover Street' and based at Bovingdon.
I flew in the right hand seat on one massed take off mission with Jeff Hawke. Despite much banging and clattering from the Starboard engine he still pressed on, flames streaming behind the trailing edge!

Happy days.

Mark22

[RabbitLeader]

Susannah York in Holby City?? :eek:

[ozplane]

Yup Holby City it is. She plays the part of a hospital inspector but isn't in it every week. Watch out for the spikey hairstyle but you can't mistake those eyes!.
Back to the thread. On page 100 of the BofB, The Movie there is a picture of an He111 flying between the Tower and what is now Hangar 3. Is this genuine? I've heard tales of Ormond H-B doing this but a Heinkel?

[Mark22]

I have of copy of this He111 low flying shot and also another taken coming towards the camera, one engine shut down and trailing 'film' smoke. Certainly genuine in my view.

Mark22

[airgage]

As someone who spent that idyllic summer living in Duxford I can confirm that one or other "He111" spent a lot of time on one engine circling DX. Therefore a flyby wasn't as outrageous as it appears today. Also the airfield was relatively deserted ie no airliners tails sticking up!

Oh and the B25 was always running up its engines just after 8:00 at the end of the runway as I went off to school, very annoying that.

Bit of trivia for you. Look at the aerial shots of the main runway, notice about 400m painted white? Comes from when the same film unit filmed part of "The Billion Dollar Brain" with one Micheal Caine as the star (1966?) - not a lot of people know that (sorry).

Also in the widescreen corner of the Polish parchutist landing in a field sequence you can see the rear frame of the chateaux from earlier in the film as the two scenes where on adjacent sides of Grange Road...... must go and get my anorak cleaned.

[crusty scab]

G'day Seafuryfan,

During the eighties I spent some time with my grandfather-in-law, R.B.Lees DFC and Bar. In the thirties he took part in the 'pilots for planes' exchange programe between Australia and England.

He ended up with 72 squadron, but in August of 1940 he was serving as a wing commander with sector HQ in Tyneside. He requested leave to rejoin his 72sqn mates, and for his efforts he was rewarded by being shot down twice in one day during the B of B: after coming 'second' to a ME109 over Dungeness and subsequently covered in oil, he managed to land and have speedy repairs made to the Spitfire. He then rejoined the fight, but on recieving wounds to his leg he landed again saving the aircraft, and himself - he was one of the first people to benifit from penicilin.

I have watched the movie several (many) times. And having heard the stories first hand has given me a greater appreciation of the stress the 'few' were under.

R.B. had a video (an old movie copied to tape) that showed a bunch of 'kids' haming it up in front of a Spitfire, my father-in-law - R.A.Lees - can be seen as a young boy watching the 'kids' laughing and joking between sorties. At the end of the tape R.B. told me that all the pilots shown had been killed less than two weeks later.

He also told of the night flying during the B of B - something not clearly revealed in the movie I thought: "It never stopped you know" he once mentioned with a haunted voice.

Before his death he was interviewed on Australian TV. He was asked a question about doubt, something like, "But how did you keep going?" He answered in a way that was probably seen as pompus and perhaps racist by the audience: "Because we were British and they were German; we were better than them."

If there are any Ex-RAF drivers out there who knew RB - he retired to Australia as an Air Vice Marshall, or perhaps his son R.A (also no longer with us) - a former Lightning/Hunter driver, I would love to hear from you.

CS

[airgage]

Bit late but the Billion Dollar Brain film , responsible for the white painted section of DX runway is showing tnight, (Tues) |Bet you you can't recognie the airfield though!!!!