JSF v Typhoon

[MightyGem]

Last week's Ch4 documentary on the JSF competition (that Boeing was just too ugly to win), and recent comments in the press, suggest that the Typhoon could be threatened by the cheapness and versitilty of the JSF. Surely they're designed for two completely different missions?

[BillHicksRules]

Gem,

You are right. However the Typhoon mission is no longer relevant. Since it was designed to intercept the Soviet invasion of the UK and Europe.

Cheers

BHR

[Jackonicko]

BHR

You are wrong! The JSF is every bit as much a Cold War aeroplane as the Typhoon, resulting from the ancient JAST requirement. If anything, as a number-bulking low cost complement to the F-22, it's arguably even more solidly a 'child of the Cold War' now that smaller numbers of the most capable aircraft may be sufficient, without needing vast numbers of cheaper fighters to back them up.

But when the aircraft were designed is irrelevant.

Typhoon was designed to be able to reliably beat the threat most of the time, minimising allied losses while maximising damage to the enemy. The baseline enemy threat was an Su-27 which was assumed to have had X number of years further development, and which was generously credited with parity in weapons, radar etc. This means that Typhoon is still capable of meeting and beating any potential threat aircraft. That's got to be relevant even today.

Moreover, Typhoon was also designed to be able to operate easily from deployed forward airstrips with minimal support. Out of area capability was a key factor in the aircraft's design. Highly relevant for a post Cold War aircraft, too.

If Typhoon works as advertised, it will be superior to the JSF in every role, except in the F-117 replacement 'night one' Stealthy role.

[Green Flash]

"IF the Typhoon works as advertised" ...... deep down, do we know the answer?!:suspect:

[Jackonicko]

It's late. (So's the F-22, so's JSF). It's had a plethora of problems. (So has the F-22, so has JSF). Timescales still seem to be slipping to the right (As they are with the F-22, and with the JSF).

But while we were only too aware of the problems which caused some slippages in the past, I keep being reassured by people who ought to know that there are no major problems now, and I haven't been able to ferret out anything to contradict them.

Grounds for cautious optimism, perhaps?

[maxy101]

I hate to burst anybodies bubble, but typically the Europeans tend to be a generation behind in avionics and radar technology. Surely they´re more relevant factors nowadays ?

[SteadyNote]

Anyone who thinks EF will be superior to JSF is on another planet and, clearly, has not been keeping in touch.
If both EF and JSF perform as advertised (and I know whose advertising I would rather believe), JSF will knock spots off EF, especially in network-centric capability. Of course, this should not be a surprise, since JSF has at least a generation of design advantage!

[L J R]

similar conversation - different date...




Let's let the Brits buy the EF and the rest of the world but the JSF et al.


After all we have little choice in the matter.
.

[Jackonicko]

Anyone who cannot see the impact of the JSF's rigorous 'design to cost' philosophy is in a different galaxy, let alone 'on another planet'. JSF makes great sense if you can augment it with superior, higher cost assets like F-22, F-15E, etc, and if you have the infrastructure of offboard sensors, JSTARS, AWACS, RJ, etc. on which the aircraft will rely. And if you need large numbers, rather than high quality.

Moreover, the supposed European lag in avionics has clearly not been sufficient for Typhoon items to be selected for use on F-22.....

JSF obviously enjoys some advantages - all round RCS being one of them, as long as you're happy to keep all stores internal, thereby limiting yourself to two Winders and two JDAM class weapons. But in terms of combat persistance, BVR capability (factoring in frontal RCS, acceleration, sensor performance, etc.) it will not 'knock the spots' off Typhoon.

With regard to believing Lockmart's advertising - I think that C-130J, Merlin mission system, and F-22 experience shows that they are every bit as adept as BAE at painting rosy pictures.

JSF is not going to be the F-16 of the 21st Century - it's much more likely to be the F-104.

[MightyGem]

Jacko, are your initials BS by any chance?

[Jackonicko]

No, they're not. But Lockmart are the best BS merchants in the business.

[moggie]

Can anyone name a current/imminent fighter aircraft that is NOT a cold war hangover??

Surely if it can get airborne, do it's job and get home in one piece then it is a valid piece of kit.

[rivetjoint]

S.s.s.speaking of which since the F-22 has made the jump to now being an F/A-22 how does that change the picture? Obviously a lot more expensive but more desirable?

[BlueWolf]

Beggin' your pardon, Sirs, but....

Exactly what is a "Cold War Hangover"?

Could it be an ac built to counter a serious threat from a credible foe?

If no such foe or threat exists, then why build the ac at all? (see also: "The World According to Helen Clark")

If the ac is being built at all, and it is, then surely one must accept that the foe and the threat exist as they always did.

The Dragon in the East is waking from its slumber, good gentlefolk all, and the coming times will include far more more hot conflicts than cold. Bring on the cold war aeroplane; all capabilities included, no expense spared. F-15 variants L to Z inclusive, perhaps?

I have to agree with Jacko, about the JSF and the F-104, if not necessarily about the EF. Frankly I think the Pomgolians could build a better aeroplane without the interference of the continentals (you'd think they would have learned after the "MRCA") - but that's just the opinion of a confessed Pomophile.

Just a thought...

[ft]

Moggie,
yes. 4th generation, but not British nor American. :D

Cheers,
Fred

[smartman]

SteadyNote

Your inference that JSF is far and away superior to Typhoon in 'network-centric' capability reveals a wide gap in your understanding of each aircraft's capabilities - which Jacko has neatly filled. Throughout Typhoon's development, it has been commonplace in debates such as this to read of criticism founded on little or no detailed knowledge of the weapon system. Never really fathomed out why, other than there seems to be an enduring mind-set that if it isn't from the US, it won't cut the mustard. No problem with that when such assertions are based on accurately presented facts, and not unsupported statements founded on dogma, popularist jargon, or other irrelevant argument. I was often amazed (and sometimes saddened)in my previous life to be berated by a variety of people - who could then have known better - about supposed Eurofighter inadequacies. Happily, those who now find themselves in closer proximity to the product (either voluntarily or otherwise) seem to be far readier to sing its praises; oh c'mom,'c'mon- I DID say'voluntarily'!

Ah well, back to my cocoa and slippers. Listen to Jacko chaps - his impartial views are factual, accurate and perfectly balanced. They must be - he agrees with me.

[Huh??]

Let's let the Brits buy the EF and the rest of the world but the JSF et al.

Well, seems like the UK will have the best of both worlds by ordering both (albeit for different roles).