Crew Layovers: What We Already Knew

[ONTPax]

Not sure if this was already posted, but here's a somewhat interesting article that appeared in USA TODAY several days ago.

Crew confessions: How airline pros spend layovers

One layover can lead to a party in an exotic locale, the next a lonely night in a hotel room, they tell USA TODAY reporter Jayne Clark:

Remember when ...

Two British Airways pilots sit in the near-empty bar of a suburban Washington hotel, several hours into a 26-hour layover.

The younger pilot sips Corona from the bottle and talks of layovers spent bicycling in Redondo Beach, Calif., nature excursions in Cape Town, South Africa, and spectacular shopping in Sydney.

But after years of hopscotching around the world, "Nowhere's a new place anymore," he declares.

"Where have you been lately?" asks his older companion. "I have no idea," he replies.

Partying hearty

A hospitality suite in a Caracas, Venezuela, hotel, where a layover party is revving into warp speed. A female flight attendant is gyrating on the tabletop. A male pilot sticks a $5 bill in her belt. Somebody turns up the music, others join the dance and suddenly, it's the battle of the flight crew strippers.

Unfortunately, we can't tell you how the scene ends.

"Once it gets to that point, I know something freaky's going to happen and I don't want to be there when the bomb goes off," says Elliott Hester, our flight attendant informant.

Long, lonely night

A snowy night in Washington and flight attendant Bonnie Scott has just returned to her hotel from a solo dinner at a local restaurant. She's on a 16-hour layover — barely enough time to settle in for a good night's sleep.

"The most important thing in a hotel? The (television) remote control," she says.

And with that, she bids, "Good night."

Ah, the life of the flight crew on layover! Heady, hedonistic, potentially humiliating!

Or just plain boring and a little bit lonely.

Either way, it's a lifestyle that offers flexibility with free time in varied locales. Layovers can mean solitude unfettered by work concerns, where the biggest responsibility is remembering the location of the current hotel room.

There's a chance to explore new places. Or just sink into the comfy netherworld of a decent hotel, temporarily furloughed from the mundaneness of the at-home routine.

"Everyone just wants to have a good time on the layover," says Hester, an 18-year flight attendant and author of Plane Insanity: A Flight Attendant's Tales of Sex, Rage and Queasiness at 30,000 Feet. "And the underpinnings of the job support having a good time. You're away from home. The crew only knows each other. You've got 36 hours in Caracas, or wherever, and you're afraid to go out on your own. So what do you do? You get together and drink."

Besides, an airliner isn't the typical workplace environment. The rules are different. Professional reputations are less of an issue, Hester maintains.

And there's an intimacy superimposed on the relative anonymity of flying with constantly changing crewmates.

While the passengers are grousing about why the plane hasn't taken off yet, the cabin crew is in their jump seats trading personal stories, he says. That intimacy carries over to the layover.

But for every crazy night in some foreign locale with a captain sucking tequila "belly shots" off the navel of a prone flight attendant, there are many more nights spent popping a couple of Excedrin PMs and waiting for sleep.

"On 90% of the layovers, you're so tired and it's a short night. The hotel is out by the airport. Most of it's dull," says Rene Foss, a flight attendant since 1985 and creator of the musical revue and subsequent book Around the World in a Bad Mood! Confessions of a Flight Attendant.

Moreover, the financial woes of the major airlines have meant shorter layovers, more stays at airport hotels, rather than city-center lodgings, and scheduling variations that prevent crews from getting to know each other.

"There's nothing quite as depressing as being in an exciting city for 48 hours with nothing more than a McDonald's and a view of the runway," says James Wysong, a 15-year flight attendant and author of The Air Traveler's Survival Guide: The Plane Truth from 35,000 Feet, written under the pseudonym A. Frank Steward.

"Someone asks you what you did, and you answer, 'Well, there was CNN and Showtime.' "

Happily, that was not the case on a recent two-day layover in Buenos Aires. Wysong returned with a honey-colored tan and a stash of bargain-priced Argentine wine.

And although he met his wife, a former flight attendant turned pilot, on a layover in San Francisco — "The crew was going to a gay bar, and I said, 'You'll have to pretend to be my girlfriend.' It's the first and only pickup line I've used" — most layovers are not the ribald love fests that some might think.

"There is some key swapping that goes on. And the wild parties do happen," he says. "But it only takes one flight with a hellacious hangover to learn a lesson."

Indeed, Foss suspects the layovers of the 1950s and 1960s, when flight attendants were uniformly female and unmarried, were a lot bawdier than they are these days because of the more diverse mix of people.

On brief layovers, most of the crew does what's called the "slam-click"- shutting the hotel room door and locking it, she says.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/bonus/2003-05-20-layover.htm

As a passenger, I'd like to initiate a formal letter of complaint over the fact that I wasn't invited to the party in Caracas nor was I able to participate in the "body shots on the belly-button" drinking competition!

Come on! If you airlines really want to have an edge over the competition, this, perhaps is the way!!

ONTPax

[autoflight]

Except for the wild parties and naked women, the reports are spot on.

[ONTPax]

Except for the wild parties and naked women, the reports are spot on.

Hmmmm.... I wonder if New York Times reporter Jayson Blair is also doing some work for USA TODAY???

Or could it be that those parties have been taking place all along, but there's been a "technical glitch" on the invitation distribution system??

Hmmmm...best to believe that the former is the case! LOL!

:uhoh:

[BEagle]

So let's have a think about this...


Hassled by Security Hitlers, then locked into a little airborne box for hours on end, apart from brief visits to the lavatory. More security hassle, then taxi to the 'Slam Click' for minimum time on the ground layover (thanks to the bean counters) - room service, CNN and HBO then uncomfortable rest until breakfast, taxi, hassle, airborne box again.....

Must be a truly wonderful life......

I'm told it used to be turn up at the airport, greeted by the rest of the crew. Take-off, wander down the back, chat to the passengers, have a coffee and a chat with the stews, back to the front and land. Taxi to hotel, room party, day sightseeing, rest before flight. Repeat of outbound fun. And no yellow jackets, 'Is that a penknife', 'Take off your shoes'..........

Why does anyone bother these days?

[BOAC]

Taxi to hotel In BA we have to leave the a/c on stand:p

Not just yellow jackets, ' Is that a penknife', 'Take off your shoes'..........

- now it is ear defenders... what did you say?

Getting to like yellow actually - it matches the streak on my back , which leads me on to 'why' - I guess I like flying and am too old to face another ejection! There is still SOME enjoyment left, Beags, some satisfaction in a job as well done as you can.

Then I go to work:D

[Kaptin M]

"A female flight attendant is gyrating on the tabletop. A male pilot sticks a $5 bill in her belt. Somebody turns up the music, others join the dance and suddenly, it's the battle of the flight crew strippers.

And the following day the female F/A lodges a sexual harassment charge against the pilot, which ends up in divorce for the pilot and suspension from work!


"..for every crazy night in some foreign locale with a captain sucking tequila "belly shots" off the navel of a prone flight attendant.."
...there is a story of crew members being charged with sexual harassment and/or assault.

More so than previously - due to the increased anti-hijack measures - the technical crew have considerably less contact with the cabin crew during flight, hence making the chances of the crew getting together for outings (or "in"ings..as in "let's go to my room for drinks") greatly reduced.
Some would jealously say that that is a good thing, however I personally believe that the get-togethers gave everybody the opportunity to better know each other, and to work out who the stronger and weaker team members of the "team" were.

[stormcloud]

So now we really know why BA want to buy Virgin:D :ok:

[Wiley]

This comes from the (obviously?) unpublished memoirs of a getting-older-now airline pilot. It shows that some things remain the same for pilots whatever their description and whatever their time frame – particularly the way it illustrates that the airline pilots, as usual, missed out!

TITS MALONE

Moving about the Air Force, I discovered that every Squadron shared one common experience - they all followed that same elusive party around the world, but all were one day behind it. The word was always the same: “You should have been here last night. Tits Malone and ten other birds were in town. (Great rolling of eyes) It was just fantastic!” or “When do leave? In the morning? Ahh, that’s a shame, cos there’s this fantastic party on tomorrow night, and Tits Malone is going to be there, dead cert.”

I spent years flying around the world, twenty-four hours behind the most fantastic party imaginable, but never did manage to catch up with it - and I was not the only one to suffer this fate, for the unofficial Squadron motto was ‘You should have been here last night’.

Did I say I never caught up with it? Well, one night I almost did. My girlfriend, who was a flight attendant, would telephone me whenever she was overnighting in the port where I was based. Often she would bring the other three girls from her crew with her and there, instantly, would be the makings of a party. Four unspoken-for women in the Mess! On these nights my stocks with the desperates in the Mess would soar.

On one such night, a winter Friday, my Flight Commander was throwing a party for the boggies at his home. These nights were really semi-official. The boggies called them ‘PQs nights’, for Personal Qualities nights. The Flight Commander had to write an assessment of our social behaviour in our annual OER, or Officer Evaluation Report - the dreaded Form PP29. This form had over a hundred different boxes to be ticked on it, only one of which was about how we could fly an aeroplane, (the only reason most of us put up with the rest of the Service carry-on).

I suppose my boss’ system was nearly fool proof. He would have us around where we would get horribly drunk, probably leering at his young wife, (who was our age and drop dead beautiful), and saying God only knows what within his hearing. However, I think his system fell down because he got as drunk as the rest of us, and he couldn’t remember all that had been said either. His wife, I’m sure, was too much of a lady to remind him of what the boggies had said if any had overstepped the mark. I don’t know of any that did, but oh, how we all dreamed of it with that particular lady…

So we were to attend a PQ night that evening, when I got a call from my girlfriend. I asked the boss if he minded my bringing one to four young ladies along that night, and would you believe it, he didn’t mind. The troops, of course, were ecstatic.

At 8.30pm, having kept myself considerably more sober than the rest of the assembly, I excused myself to go to meet her flight. With four hosties and their bags crammed into my car, I drove them off to their hotel to get changed, and, (leaving two very pissed off airline pilots behind at the hotel – the shape of things to come!), by about 10.00pm, returned with my booty, one of whom was the exact twin of Elle MacPherson except in one - or was that two? - features, and in that (those?) department she was more like Dolly Parton. She was dressed in very tight white jeans and a stretch fabric shirt, unbuttoned to reveal almost all of the very considerable cleavage she owned. It was a truly spectacular sight, and even moreso because it was a mid-winter’s night. From memory, all four girls were dressed so lightly because they were originally to overnight in about twelve hundred miles closer to the equator, but their rosters had been changed. Whatever the reason, I remember no one among the males present was complaining. Four sets of nipples were very much to the fore – these were the wonderful days when the ‘no bra’ look was very much in vogue.

Now the party had been humming while I was away. As I opened the living room door and the four girls preceded me into the room, I had the whole scene in view. The boss was sitting in an easy chair, and one of the boggies was leaning over him, pouring him a beer. Seeing the look on the boss’ face as Elle MacPherson-Parton walked in, the pourer looked over his shoulder, gaped, and continued to pour the contents of the beer bottle all over the boss’ lap. Oblivious to the beer in his lap, the boss kept stuttering “T-t-t-tits!”. Reaction around the room was similar - and not particularly muted.

The boss had a black Labrador whose first owner had beaten it rather badly. The dog would cower if any stranger approached it. With its memory of beatings, it particularly did not like someone putting a hand out over its head to pat it. Every visitor thought that he could befriend the dog, but all had failed miserably.

But the dog was not at all dumb. Elle/Dolly’s attentions were accepted, at first shyly, but later with growing confidence. She was kneeling down, leaning forward to pat the dog - and this alone was quite an arresting sight. No man in the room was looking anyone else in the eye. Conversations went on, but every male eye in the room was on one - or was it two? - things. The dog, finding someone he felt he could trust, advanced slowly and gave Elle/Dolly a long, lingering lick starting just above the fourth button of her shirt, and continuing all the way up to her throat. The silence was sudden and absolute except for the collective swallow made by every male in the room. Finally it was too much for one the drunks. He rolled out of an easy chair onto all fours on the floor and proceeded to bay like a hound.

The party was a great success, and all the girls said they enjoyed themselves.

At work on Monday, the PQs night was the main topic of conversation, and the stories were already growing in the telling. The boss said that after twelve years in the service and always being twenty-four hours behind that elusive party, he had finally caught up with the mythical Tits Malone! He was satisfied. She actually did exist.

I got a good PP29 that year.

Needless to say, after joining the very same airline those four young ladies worked for a few years later, I never saw another party quite like that one. Well, not very often…

[flapsforty]

Nice story Wiley! ;)

Speedbrake and others, you are wondering about the current generation of airline crews.
And blaming the locked door.
Course it doesn't help, but with a bit of effort from both sides of the door, fun is still within easy reach.
But how do you operate?

Do you make the effort? Do you contribute to a good atmosphere in your crew? Do you do a walk around inside the AC when you board? So you get to know the FAs before expecting them to party with you?
Do you have a wee word with the Purser or CSD (or whatever the number one in the cabin is called in your mob) to coordinate plans while you're still in the air? So you can jointly come out with a good proposal on the crew bus? Knowing that you will arrive at destination long after all bars are closed, do you ever buy a few bottles of tax free wine to treat your crew? Do you ever stock up at Tesco's so you can treat your crew to a few nibbles? Do you carry a tin of peppermints/liquorice/chocolate in your flight bag to put on the pedestal for the FAs visiting the cockpit?

When the Captain and the Purser jointly announce that after such a tiring flight everyone needs to unwind and that all are invited to the Captain's/Purser's room for a quick free drink, I have never seen it fail yet.
The really tired ones leave after one polite drink, the rest stays, gets to know eachother, has a good time and is reminded of what makes life as airline crew such a hell of a lot of fun!

You need to put some effort into it yourself, before moaning about stuff that's not happening.
In our Mob all of the above regularly happens, both Pursers and Captains often make the effort to start the socialising off on the right foot.
And it works.
With the way our rosters are nowadays, it doesn't happen every trip. It doesn't need to.
But even on short haul, when a joint effort is made by Captain and Purser, we party.
http://youkette.chez.tiscali.fr/anniversaires/anniv028.gif

[Foreign Worker]

"do you ever buy a few bottles of tax free wine to treat your crew? Do you ever stock up at Tesco's so you can treat your crew to a few nibbles? Do you carry a tin of peppermints/liquorice/chocolate in your flight bag to put on the pedestal for the FAs visiting the cockpit?"

Is there some reason that cabin crew believe the pilots should be supporting them?
When all is said and done, almost everything that the flight attendants contribute to any parties has been knocked off from the ship`s supplies, :eek: and most everything brought to the cockpit during flight also comes from Company stock.

Surely a polite, "Please" and "Thank you" from those at the front end is enough recognition for letting cabin crew know that we appreciate the effort for doing the job for which they have been hired, and PAID to do.

Personally, flapsforty, I take affront at your message - I like many other pilots, have a family to support, and being expected to pander to the cabin crew by, "carry(ing) a tin of peppermints/liquorice/chocolate in your flight bag to put on the pedestal for the FAs visiting the cockpit.", to whom I have no personal (as opposed to professional) responsibility, is outside the bounds of decent expectations.

[Travelling Toolbox]

Wowser!!! :p :p

[rwm]

Foreign Worker, just keep that cheap pilot attitude up. Most have a familly to support, and I don't think what flapsforty was saying about spending a few bucks to bring the crew closer together is a bad idea. You probably are the typical cheap bastard that wines about how much tip to give a waitress at a resturaunt. You would never be welcome at my table you cheap pr!ck.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Boy, FW, I bet your CRM course was fun........ you're the sort of guy who wonders why he's on his own in the bar of an evening:8

[BEagle]

Good heavens, FW, what an astonishing attitude....

I'd certainly treat the cabin staff to the first round on a stop over if I were in the airline game - perhaps being paid nearly 3 times what they're paid might have some bearing on the matter. Just as I always used to put all the crew names into a hat and get the most junior member of the crew to pull out the winning name for the freebie 'captain's bottle' we used to get at the Gander duty-free shop. Never won it myself either!

But you're right about treating your colleagues to a few 'please' and 'thank you' s. So easy to take people for granted; if you're on the radio when a cup of coffee is offered, don't just wave it away dismissively. Make eye contact, point to your earpiece and smile, then hold up a finger (not the middle one!). Meaning "I'm busy just at the moment, but thanks for the offer - I'll be with you in just a moment"...

[Max Angle]

Somewhere there's a PARTY missing! The problem, on European shorthaul, is there is hardly ever time nowadays. Most of our layovers are little more than 12 hours, time for a beer, something to eat, and then bed. That said we do still have some nice evenings when everybody is up for it and we can get into town for a bit of a party. I often get the feeling (for more reasons than just the parties!) that I have come to the airline biz. about 20 years too late.

PS. Always try to buy the first round.

[Foreign Worker]

perhaps being paid nearly 3 times what they're paid might have some bearing on the matter.
I believe that is precisely the attitude that is behind the thinking of many cabin crew - "You can afford it."

We are not your benefactors, we are not your parents, and we owe you nothing except work-related respect.

I am more than happy to sit down over a meal, and buy a bottle of wine to share with you, as I do with other non-aviation colleagues - none of whom suggest that because I earn more than they, I should subsidise them.

There are many people in this world who earn a small fraction of the salary (and get none of the benefits) of cabin crew.
How many cabin crew have bought peppermints/liquorice/chocolates, or thought of spending a few bucks on the cleaning staff? After all, you are earning far in excess of them.

Perhaps it's a case, ONTPax, of the pilots getting sick and tired of being rorted by some cabin crew when the bill comes.

[TightSlot]

:eek:

Foreign Worker over time on PPrune, I've read a lot of anti Cabin Crew posts, but in terms of raw malevolence, yours is in the major league.

Just for once, words fail me. I hope never to fly with you as Cabin Crew - I'll sure as hell know you if I do, since your attitude is off the graph.

[ebbr2]

it's just unbelievable. What is a small box of pepermint going to cost you? compare it with what you get back for it. A much more relax atmosphere, you give the feeling to the rest of your crew that you're not one of those a*****e captains. Even the co-pilot will feel the possibility to express his point of vieuw because everything is more relaxed. Yep, these guys very often have interesting things to say. And this is only during the flight...
After landing everybody will be in a much better mood and maybe think positive about the cockpit crew... they might even leave their room to have a chat with them. All that for a box of peppermint, I'd say, give me 10kg's of those but I'd go for the chocolates.
If you don't like the above, just continue like you do, I've seen 6000£/month (after tax) guys taking their can of coca-cola into a restaurant (can you believe that) and pouring it in their glas so that they didn't have to order one, no need to say how I felt :\. I've seen a guy sending back a waiter with a botlle of mineral water (same salary by the way) because he wanted the water of the tab. And I can tell you, this was in a country where I was using mineral water to brush my teeth.

[ONTPax]

Foreign Worker wrote:

Perhaps it's a case, ONTPax, of the pilots getting sick and tired of being rorted by some cabin crew when the bill comes.

Well, remember, I'm neither Flight Deck Crew NOR Cabin Crew. But, having worked in the industry at one time, and having many friends who are still in the industry with many interesting stories to tell, I do know that airline personnel know how to have a good time on their layovers on those now-rare occasions when their schedules will allow it. As has been mentioned here, the "bean counters" have now seen to it that long layovers are more and more of a rare event, as more productivity is squeezed out of the employee. Sadly. this is something that's certainly not unique to the airline industry.

I would think that on those rare occasions when an after-hours gathering of employees can be arranged, the haggling over who is expected to pay for what could be kept to a minimum. So what if the burden may sometimes fall a little more heavily to the Flight Deck Crew? Can you put a price tag on good morale and good relations between employees? I think not.

As Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along?"

And, fiction or not, as that USA TODAY article reported, if you pilots play your cards right, you might be treated to the flight attendant strippers competition or the body shots on the belly button drinkfest. Obviously, there are no guarantees in this world, but the investment you're sweating bullets over might
have a tremendous payoff!

And for any feminists who may be reading this, remember that I didn't write that article. I only passed it along. Please don't slay the messenger! :oh:

Last but not least....Flight Deck Crew can afford the mints and/or chocolates!

With that, I'll stand on the sidelines some more and watch the continuing fireworks show! :p

Your turn at bat, Foreign Worker!

[hkwannabe101]

Hello all. Wiley, great post :D

Not being flight deck crew (yet!!) nor cabin crew, I probably dont really have the right to comment here, but........

It would seem to me that a little bit of give and take from both sides would make the whole situation run a bit smoother when it comes to the relationship between those on either side of the locked door. Importantly, I believe that when people feel more relaxed with those that they are working with, then everything just works better.

I would like to think that one day, when I am flying, flight deck crew and cabin crew will see my name on a roster and think, yeah, this should be a good trip, professional pilot with a good attitude to those around him.

As opposed to those who see the names of pilots with your apparent attitude FW.

[CaptAirProx]

Feedback in my company suggests that crew morale with flightdeck can be in two forms. Be an a******e but pay for the nights drinks and food for the crew. In effect buy their respect.

Or do all the things that tell the crew whilst working with them that you respect them and they are free to express their feelings to you the captain at anytime. This works for me everytime and we all end up sharing the bill and drinks rounds to no ill effect on crew morale. And if we have had the sh*ttiest day I either buy them all an extra special round or somehow wangle the company credit crard into action to show my/companies appreciation for their efforts.

[COWPAT]

When I joined my airline many years ago, pilot salaries were generous and tax free, but the working relationship (and thus social life) with the cabin crew was not at all good.

12 years on and after degradation upon degradation to terms and conditions and a very unfavourable exchange rate, the working relationship with the cabin crew is generally first rate and some of the parties I have "observed" (...honest m'lud) have not been consistent with the highly conservative and moral standing of our host country.

Workers of the world unite?

[Eliason]

Hi FW!
Being just a "poor" cabincrew I once got into the habbit of buying in box of chocolate on layovers for the trip back. I usually hand them then out in briefing. The workers on the plane who happen to pass me are also offered one - be it cleaner, tech-crew, catering... Keep them happy - keep me safe - keep me happy ;)

On the other hand are you right. Pilots owe the crew nothing - and you can be sure - most of the cabincrew show up at the bar or restaurant not because they expect a free drink of meal - they show up because they want to have fun and a nice evening out. But it's your attitude on the flight before that determines how many of the crew will show up... Just in case you ever sit at the bar alone - think about that ;)

And ebbr2 - I'd also go for the chocolate :D:ok:

[eltel]

C'mon people! The Company pays for you to night stop in a forgein port, pays you well, gives you allowances, gives you a grade 1 hotel (we hope), lets you mix with lovely ladies-guys-guys who think they are ladies (who gives a damn) and you are moaning? We have one of the best jobs in the world in spite of recent restrictions. Be happy! If you think you can have a better life style elsewhere, go to it.

[SydGirl]

BEagle just wanted to say that I look forward to meeting you in the skies one day, your CRM is exemplary.

Oh, and if you like, I'll bring the mints AND pay for the first round. ;)

And ForeignWorker just FYI, the cleaning staff at the airline where I'm employed earn more than the cabin crew.

Sheesh.
SG
:O

[Foreign Worker]

The reply that probably best expresses my feelings, is that of CaptAirProx.

It would seem that as we continue, we are establishing a "Rewards Programme" that goes something like this:-
No material reward - expect minimal service on the flight deck, from the cabin crew;
Give them peppermints - and expect to get an improved flight deck service;
Give them chocolates - and the service will improve out of sight;
Buy them drinks after the flight - and expect the pleasure of the cc`s company;
Buy them dinner - and they`ll be eternally grateful (until the next trip).

Goodness knows what to expect if one were to give them chocolates, drinks AND dinner.

And to think that other earth-bound people only do it for money!

[Willit Run]

Fun on layovers, is directly proportional to the amount of respect given to each other. Now, the captain can start the ball rolling, but in the off chance, they push folks down the wrong side, the F/O or the Engineer(remember those) can direct things the right way. Forget the salary, the status, the ego's. Go out with the attitude your going to have fun, and make it happen!!!!
I just have an incredibly hard time with weenie's, who make this job so much harder than it has to be!!!!!!!!!!


Party on Garth!!

[MTOW]

Great post, Wiley. Got any more like that from your 'unpublished memoirs'?

[driftdown]

Fascinating post Wiley.


Foreign Worker, Good job most of the flight deck I have come across do not share your attiutude. Astounding

[Devils Advocate]

At some charter airlines the cabin crew earn a salary that is only a couple of £’s more per hour than the statutory minimum wage.

The cabin crew work bloomin’ hard, typically on their feet all day ( and sometimes all night ) all the while whilst shagbag and I - up at the pointy end - sit there on our big fat a_rses with little else to do but work out how long it takes for the cabin crew to nett what we do ( e.g. typically some Captains nett in one day what will take some of their cabin crew over one week ).

As a result of this there's nothing I find sadder than, when in a foreign port with the whole team out in some restaurant, knowing that when they’re looking at the menu it’s not so much at the appetising food that’s on offer, as at the price of it.

Accordingly I often make the suggestion that the cabin crew collectively pay for the drinks bill, whilst the flight crew cop for the food bill - albeit that I usually also bung in some extra for the drinks bill ( hic ! ) - and I always pay for the first round of drinks too - what happens after that depends on how well things are going.

Basically, there are no pockets in a shroud, enjoy it while you can !


Ps. Speaking of menu’s........ Many moons ago, my Mum ( with my Dad in tow ) was on a protest march through London in support of the ‘Equal Pay Act’ ( i.e. mostly about getting equal pay for women ).

It had been a long day and my Mum suggested that they both have a nice cup of tea in the nearby hotel ( it was on Park Lane – so :eek: thinks my Dad ).

In they go, the maitre’d seats them at a nice table and hands each of them a menu.

Dad looks at his menu, eyes the extortionate prices, and says “So what would you like ?”

Mum replies “Well I don’t really know, it’s just that my menu hasn’t got any prices on it ?!”

Nice one ! i.e. the man was expected to pay, so he gets the menu with prices, whereas the lady does not.

Of course that my father had spent a foot weary day slogging around London on behalf of equal pay for women, but that he was then expected to trump-up for the refreshments...... the irony of it was not lost on him ! :E

[Paterbrat]

We all enjoy some variety in our profession and all party would eventualy be as tiring as all clunk click is boring. Attitude has always been important and there will always be wowsers in cockpit and cabin.
It's pleasant to meet with positive attitudes and a willingness to get on and make the best of a situation and enjoy life, just as it is enevitable that we will all be faced with a sour attitude and a 'to hell with pleasantries' from time to time. We can only hope that we meet more with the former than the latter.
FW your attitude sucks, but then again you might just enjoy your own company.

[refplus20]

With someone like Foreign W@nker on your crew, would you really want him to come out with you after the flight as well?? :yuk:

[shocka]

I once spent a few days in Taipei with a Captain who was on two salary's. One was from his previous contracted but redundant job & the other his present job.

Every night was party night & being the generous bloke that he could afford to be, his bath was chockers full of grog every night
for 7 o'clock slurps ! No shortage of company but I don't remember what happened, someone said we had a ball !

[rwm]

When I used to work with an airline, we would have an annual sports tournament. Each base would put together a team, and we would meet to practice before the tournament. The teams were open to everyone withing the company from the cleaners to the management staff. One thing that I came to understand, was that the more you made, the less you were willing to chip in at the end of the night for any after snacks and booze. With a pilot taking this to extreme by picking up some of the tip left after the bill came, because the waitress should only get 10% tip.

I overnighted with this same bast@rd one night, and he was so cheap, he took all the little packs of coffee and sweetener from the hotel, and only ordered a cup of hot water in the resturaunt for breakfast. He only paid half of the meter on the taxi, no tip, and asked for the driver to add more to the reciept so he could get more reimbursed when we got home. He then took a couple extra meals from the galley when we got back to base. I had a chat with the F/A at the end of the flight, and she told me that she hated flying with him, because he was so cheap.

I have been luck in my career, that I have only run into a couple of people like this. Because what I have found is when you spend so much time away from home, anyone that you know is a welcome sight at the end of the day because you don't need to do as much to break the ice, and start a conversation. I feel that a little token gesture of a bought drink, a passed around mint, ect. goes so far toward comaradery, and morale.

I miss working for the airline back home, because it was a large family. Everyone would pass and say hi, and at the end of the day many would meet at a local pub for a pint, and relax before going home. There were many other higher paying jobs out there, but it was not about money that we all stuck with the sinking ship,(airline went bust) it was the comaradery we had together.

FW, I think you have missed the point here about morale and cameradery. You may not owe the crew anything, but you also won't be offered anything either, and when your ship sinks, nobody will pass you a lifevest either. And when I see you at the side of the road with a flat, I will pass you by like you probably do everyone else, and I will do it on purpose. Morale is a team effort, and your not on the team.

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

Foreign Worker's arguments have their place. I can thank them for a truly memorable night stop in one fantastic city, where FW (it must have been him) went and sat alone in his hotel room, and I went on the town with the entire cabin crew (all female, all under 30, all gorgeous).
Thanks again FW! :ok: I had a great time! :cool:

[newarksmells]

I'm not a pilot, but I feel i have a contribution here.

Because of the economy, I and none have of co-workers have received any type of raise in 3 years. I get paid more than they do. While I can't go around giving them bottles at their desk, I take them offsite once a month for our staff meetings and pay for food and drinks.

On top of that, if we're coming up to a major holiday and the shift is staffed by 2 people, one gets the day before and the other gets the day after the holiday off. All the other people get a day-off too as time and scheduling permits. This is with pay.

Finally, I have 2 BBQs a year where people can come swim, eat, laugh and drink and be happy.

What you're missing Foreign Worker is happy employees are good employees. I might not have the perfect management style, but i love the people I work with and anything I can do to make their life easier, better and more convenient, I will always do.

Nobodys' left in 3 years despite no pay raises.

Newark

[Foreign Worker]

That point, "happy employees are good employees " has not been missed by me newarksmells.
But why does there seem to be this compunction by some pilots to have the need to buy friendship?
And the converse by some cabin crew to feel that they can sell it? ("Give us candies, buy us drinks, take us out to dinner, or eat on your own")

I wonder if these same flight deck crews who are willing to throw their money around liberally when away from home, are as generous with their own family when they return.

If the cabin crew cannot afford to party on and support themselves financially, is this not a salary problem that needs to be addressed, perhaps by moving on to another job in which their champagne tastes can be better catered than the beer income they apparently receive.
It`s called, living within one's means - something that responsible adults must learn.

By all means I am not against crews having a fun time together, however when the bill comes I think it more than a little unreasonable for cabin crew to expect cockpit crew to pay more because they earn more.
Then again perhaps airline employees are socialists in the main.

refplus, please don't assume. Not ALL techies are males!

[AA717driver]

I'm from the school of thought that flying is still a fraternity--both cockpit and cabin crew belong. I always asked the cabin if they wanted to join us for a nightcap. In fact, if we were at the bar or pool, I would ask any other crews if they wanted to come over.

I never kept count of how much I spent or received. It all worked out in the end. This is the best route to good CRM--the airlines could save a hell of a lot of money on those stupid classes we are forced to attend during recurrent!

Cheers all!TC

[shocka]

Yeah, some blokes are pretty cheap. I flew with one codger who got his wife to cut his hair, he looked like Moe Howard.

Another lurk was nose wheel roulette, where the cabin crew were odds on to win except if one particular bloke was driving. He used to taxi up to the line at outports & get the ground engineer on the headset & ask him where HIS number was, then inch forward until it was at 6 o'clock, VOILA another winner !

Then he'd generously "donate" the bottle of wine that he "won"
to the room party that night

Cunning as a ****house rat:p

[Paterbrat]

Obviously a man who sticks to his convictions, and goes down with the sinking ship FW.
You are quite right nobody should have to pay for friendship, some people however call it sharing what they have. A convention common amongst humans and known to promote friendship and a feeling of wellbeing in both giver and recipient.
Some though, have been known to regard this as total foolishness, and even to mutter "Bah, humbug!"

[Travelling Toolbox]

Cabin crew injured as man attacks them attempting to access cockpit

QANTAS flight from Melbourne to Launceston (Tasmania) returns to Melbourne after declaring an emergency:

A male and female cabin crew were injured yesterday as they subdued a man intent on getting into the cockpit. Unconfiormed reports say the man was shouting "I want to bring the plane down!" as he stabbed the male FA in the back of the head and the female in the face.

Even with his injuries, the male FA fought off the man and wrestled him to the floor. Then with assistance, the attacker was placed in "restraints" and handed over to police on arrival back in Melbourne.

As far as I am concerned, I don't think even chocolates are enough for these two FA's. Good on them! :ok: :ok:

I hope the tech crew show their appreciation when the FA's are released from hospital.

I wonder who is watching your back for you FW?

By the way, the aircraft did not have the cockpit door hardened. :uhoh:

[Stearperson]

The airline industy has not been very good to me lately but in the few years that it was I certainly could not complain about the interaction between the cabin crews and us in the cockpit.
Most layovers were of the boring short night type but there were plenty of good ones with generous and giving people in more ways than one.
In the modern airline environment there is rarely time for a good time but when there is one can fortunately still be had.
Perhaps some of you Englishmen can explain to this Yank what exactly a Wowser is? I get the idea but the term is new to me.

FW: You sound like you deserve everthing you don't get on layovers.Thats OK I will be happy to take your share as well as mine.

Reading this thread makes me eager to get back my airline seat when the current market turns around.

Cheers, Stearperson

[Foreign Worker]

This thread is quite enlightening. It would appear apparent that most of the tech crew who have responded believe they have a pretty good chance with the cabin crew, if they can get them "in the mood", and that the cabin crew are happy to accomodate, provided they are bought out and buttered up first.

Little wonder aircrew have one of the highest rates of personal relationship failures of all work groups.
A party looking for somewhere to go, as long as someone else(whether it be the tech crew, or pax) is willing to foot the costs.

Peterbrat I concur with your sentiments, however we are not talking about sharing here. The sentiment of the majority would seem to favour the one with the highest salary support the others. Following this logic, any bill that comes during group outings should be divided directly proportional to incomes.
I have NEVER seen cabin crew do that between themselves - the most junior always pays the same as other cc's who are several years ahead incrementally.
Hypocritical then isn't it, that these same people who are advocating the Captain buy chocolates, and drinks to engender crew morale, do NOT do the same for those with whom they are in closer contact.

I don't see the problem with each crew member throwing the same set amount into the hat. Perhaps then, some cabin crew might not feel they have to offer their bodies, nor some tech crew feel they have made a potential "investment".

By the way Travelling Toolbox, I researched that story, and without taking anything away from the bravery exhibited by the 2 cc's, it would seem that it was 6 PASSENGERS who finally subdued the attacker.

I hope the FA's show the pax their appreciation when they are released from hospital.

A "man" who sticks to "his" convictions, Peterbrat?
Try again.

[3 Holer]

........speaking of "in the mood".
There was a Irishman, an Italian and an Aussie all enjoying a quite drink in the bar on a cruise ship. The Irishman pipes up and says "Aye, this not be a real good bar. My friend Murphy runs a real good bar in Dublin and for every three Guiness you buy, you get one FREE!"
The Italian then replies "Thatsa notta reala gooda bar. My frienda Luigi has a reala gooda bar in Roma. For every one vino you buy you getta onr FREE!"
The Aussie, not to be outplayed. "Yeah, well my Mate Macca runs a pub in Bouke and you get free beer, free food and at the end of the night you get laid for free!"
"Did that happen to you then ?" asks the Irishman.
"Nah" replies the Aussie. "It happened to me sister."

[Devils Advocate]

FW wrote: A "man" who sticks to "his" convictions..... ? Try again.

Reading between the lines it's all beginning to make a lot more sense, certainly so when put together with this recently obtained piccie of FW ;) :

http://www.mingers.com/photos/classic/m5.jpg

[Paterbrat]

Jeeez... I am sorry FW, my appologies. By the way you really should either lay off those choccies or share them out they are playing havoc with your smile, what was the occasion or had you just been given a raise.

[javelin]

Sounds like FW is similar to a couple of our Captains, who after a shared dinner and split bill casually ask if it's OK to put it on their credit card. They then trousers the tip in cash and pay the bill only ! Problem is, they get found out and get the 'special' from the grill on the way home ! If you piss off the back end, bring sandwiches and a flask, it's going to be a long night :ouch:

[jpsingh]

I think Foreign worker is just trying to get areaction of how stingy someone can get.Ofcourse, The Captain owes his crew a drink and I always carry the duty free stuff and even remember which of my youngsters drink what.

[BEagle]

Hey, Devil's Advocate - I know an ex-VC10 Flight Engineer who wouldn't think twice if that old bat said "Yes"!

Last I heard he was flying those old 727s which smoke so badly you'd think they were running on coal!

[refplus20]

Thanks FW, I think the penny has just dropped. Doesn't change a thing though.

BTW you're right. Never assume. My apologies. Assume does make a ASS out of U and ME. :\ :\ :\

[Devils Advocate]

Beagle - he's probably typical of most engineers ( g'awd bless'em ) who by way of advanced preparation ensures he doubles-up on the double-bagging protection, as well as making sure not to look at the mantelpiece whilst poking the fire ! :mad:

Mind you, have you ever noticed that, when down route, it's always the engineers who seem to know 'the most interesting venues' ;) - uhm, I feel a thread coming on....... :E

[ONTPax]

Foreign Worker wrote:

By all means I am not against crews having a fun time together, however when the bill comes I think it more than a little unreasonable for cabin crew to expect cockpit crew to pay more because they earn more.
Then again perhaps airline employees are socialists in the main.

If it's decided that one group should shoulder a little more of the burden because thay happen to earn more, it's certainly not the first and only application of this practice.

I believe the intra-island airlines in Hawaii charge lower airfares to the locals than they do to the mainland tourists.

I believe there's a two-tier money system in China where foreign tourists (who have lots of money) are charged more for the same goods and services than locals, who do not have quite so much money.

These are just two of many examples.

Is this fair? No. But who ever said life was fair?

"From each according to his ability, to each, according to his need."

K. Marx
CEO of MarxAir

[Fragman88]

Fw Misses two very important points in his posts.

The first is pure and simple mathematics. The Cabin Crew's allowances make up a far larger part of their total package, and thus blowing a big hole in them (very often to subsidise an unequal share of a bill) is not an experience they will wish to repeat too often.

Why should this social interaction be important? This is the second point.

FW may be a very fine pilot, but as all the Mice in the RHS, waitng, watching and learning on the way to becoming the Rat in the LHS, will find, there is a big difference between just a good pilot and a good commander. A good command course is about much more than teaching the left hand to fly. Welding a disparate group of individuals into a cohesive crew is a major part of the Captain's task, and whilst a round of drinks, or the odd bottle will not buy you respect, it may well be the social icebreaker which allows the Commander to create the mutual respect so essential to a good crew. My last airline had an unspoken policy of `First round is the Captain's for those who wish to attend'. This was pushed as one facet of command, and I found it highly effective- once they've attended, you can work on the teamwork. So all you chaps in the RHS, watch the good commanders and see how they do these things, it is very often not aboout having a good time, or fancying your chance with the Cabin Crew, but about Leadership. A small price to pay from a Captain's salary for such great benefits

[Foreign Worker]

Friendship, and respect, are earned - not bought.

Again I repeat my earlier question, How many of you pilots with families spend an equivalent amount on them when you return home?.
Very few methinks, unless it's to take them down to the nearest McDonalds so that you can scrimp enough away for your next night stop.

Let's be honest people, the money spent is looked at as an investment - short, medium, or longer term. Unfortunately the "investment" then evolves into having to divest oneself of previously gained acquisitons at the divorce settlement.

Many pilots who think themselves excellent practicioners of CRM might look at their own personal relationships with those who are financially dependent upon them, versus those who are "good time buddies" only.

[Whiskey Zulu]

The term nightstop or layover certainly brings back many happy memories for me.

'Delsy diners' were unheard of.

Order of the day, regardless of time of the day was a crew room party 15 mins after arrival at the hotel. Although attendance was not compulsory, the entire crew 11 C/C 2/3 pilots generally showed.

Seating was at a premium. 3 people on each bed, three on the chairs and the rest distributed equally between floor and furniture.

Once a few drinks had been consumed, the camaraderie and humour shared between so many people in such a relatively small space still brings a smile to my face.

Gradually, in various states of inebriation, people would retire to their own rooms to sleep it off. The party animals would continue until the booze, sleep depravation or a combination of both finally got the better of them.

As the cigarrette smoke gradually cleared, the advantage of holding the crew party in my room became clear. Any hostie interested in a bit of jiggery pokery, or too drunk to leave under own steam would still be there. Modesty aside, being a young, straight and good looking steward (well I was) my success rate in the drunken exchange of bodily fluids dept was exemplary. :ok:

Alas, it seems those days are gone. Marrying one of the above curtailed my enjoyment of such activities somewhat! but offered alternative life experiences, including kids, that I would not exchange.

Don't know why I've posted this. Just started and kept going. This thread brought back happy memories of happy days. In my day, in my airline, crews stuck together to eat, take trips out and party. The odd miserable prat like FW apart, our flight deck were generally an integral part of the crew activities and shared our sense of fun and good humour. They never had to dig their hands any deeper into their pockets than the rest of us. They weren't expected to and why should they?

We mostly live our lives according to our means don't we?

[AA717driver]

Whiskey Zulu--You posted it because it summs up the whole thread. That's what layovers are supposed to be like. Screw the jealous ground pounder management that are trying their best to steal the future of such layovers from those of us willing to embark on this career.TC

[B767300ER]

That VC10 F/E you spoke of...reminds me of an F/E I flew with on the DC-10 in the charters. His motto was:

"Beauty is only a light switch away"!