A question from an Aussie ATC about U.S. Class E

[CaptainMidnight]

We have a locally known identity here pushing for adoption of the U.S. airspace system in Australia. There is confusion about how class E airspace is managed in the U.S., and naturally we are reluctant to take one pilot's understanding of how it works against how it might really work.

The questions relate to an IFR flight departing an aerodrome to climb through overlying E into A, when VMC exists. Here are a couple of posts from the individual concerned:
Ferris, I am absolutely amazed in the way you and others do not understand how E airspace works when used correctly and to the highest level of safety. <snip> If E is used correctly when VMC exists, it should give an identical level of service to IFR pilots as Class G. Can’t any of you understand this simple fact? and:
Clamback and Hennessy have always climbed in the E whilst awaiting a clearance. They have changed their flight rules to VFR as they have climbed and told the air traffic controller of this when convenient. That surely is the correct procedure and CASA agrees. Clamback and Hennessy fly regularly in the United States and know how the system works.

Is this how it works? What if there is conflicting IFR traffic in E? (which is why an ATC here would decline a clearance to climb). I heard that in this scenario before an IFR can change to VFR and climb in E that 1) it is subject to ATC approval and 2) the conflicting aircraft (and there can be only one) must also agree. The procedure locally is being referred to as "IFR Pickup".

Sorry if this confusing - spare a thought for us ........

[MEI]

I will give this a shot without getting to wordy about it.

First off class E is controlled airspace. Now if your climbing in VMC then the controller will ask you if you can maintain visual seperation, if yes do it, if not he usually will still give you a clearance but if there's an airplane in the way they will give you some restriction. ie (level off, turn you, climb you higher).

If there is an airplane in the way you wouldn't know if you weren't visual and you better not be in the clouds without a clearance!!

The people in question may be referring to one of two things

1) taking off VMC into class E and picking up your clearance airborn( this isextremeluy common in general aviation)

2) getting what we call a "pop up" clearance. you maintain VFR and politely ask ATC for an IFR clearance. Have also done this a few times but would try to avoid it (just file, even if you never use it). It is nice to use the pop up if you've been flying along VFR you encounter some weather and just want to go IFR. They may or may not give it to you right away, depends on there work load and if someone brought in donuts that day!

hope that helps!!

[CaptainMidnight]

MEI

Thanks for the brief, that clarifies a few things.

I had a suspicion that in the event of conflicting traffic that is where there is a difference. The following is from one of our pubs.

IFR Pick-up - the new, additional procedure

A flight operating under the Instrument Flight Rules in Class G airspace, either in cruise or on climb after take-off, requires an ATC clearance if intending to proceed into Class E under the IFR. In this case a clearance must be obtained before entering
the Class E.

If ATC advise a clearance is not available, or the pilot anticipates a delay in availability, the pilot may request “IFR Pick-up” before reaching the Class E boundary. This tells ATC that the flight will proceed VFR, until an IFR clearance is available, and the pilot expects a Directed Traffic Information and Flight Information Service while operating VFR. This procedure is described in AIP SUP.

The request must be made prior to entering Class E airspace. Once this is done the flight must be operated in Visual Meteorological Conditions and must maintain radio contact with ATC so that the traffic information service can be maintained and the requested IFR clearance provided when available. LSALT,
position reporting and track maintenance requirements are the same as for an IFR flight. Without this compliance, the directed traffic information service cannot be provided.

When ATC are able to issue the IFR clearance, the flight will then resume IFR operations and will receive normal IFR services.
The reason ATC might refuse clearance to an IFR aircraft to climb & enter E is due to conflicting traffic, but with this procedure in VMC that aircraft can elect to continue the climb and thus ATC only has to provide traffic information, not separation to both aircraft. We are being told that the above procedure is exactly what happens over your way, and it has just been adopted as-is and implemented here.

[MEI]

ya, basically if its VFR anyone can be in there and you provide your own seperation until IFR.

It can add pucker factor , when its IFR conditions because class E generally (NOT AlWALYS) either at the surface, 700 agl or 1200 agl. You take off and level off a 500 or so in class G awaiting your IFR clearance, not a good idea if you don't know the area. Good way to find a granite cloud!

Another alternative is to get a clearance void time. This is where they give you a clearance, usually by phone because your out of radio contact, to be off by or otherwise its void. This works great out in the boonies, usually they will hold the airspace open for you , and there's usually very litttle IFR out there anyway.

Anyway, where there's a will there seems to be a way.
Interestingly enough you don't need an IFR clearance to fly in the clouds in Class G, your on your own though.

[CaptainMidnight]

Thanks for the info. The big difference with adopting the U.S. system here is our lack of radar coverage. It is in a belt to about 100nm inland along the east coast and down along the south, so we will have a lot of non-radar "E".

[Winstun]

there is no seperation for VFR aircraft in class D or E.
it's see and avoid my friend :ooh:

VFR aircaft are seperated from IFR in class B (not in Australia) and class C (Aust capital city airports) by any of the following:

visual seperation OR

500 feet vertical seperation OR

target resolution (no less than 2.4km lateral to > than light
turbojets in class B)

[Tinstaafl]

I can't see the problem. VFR a/c already climb/crz/descend at will in Class E airspace. An IFR a/c has always been able to change category to VFR, climb/crz/descend/whatever then, at a point convenient to the pilot, amend details to change category to IFR. How is that different to the 'IFR pickup' procedure?

If anything the IFR pickup is better because at least now the controller has a prior warning that this will be done and can arrange matters accordingly.

The sooner Oz goes American, the better. Ditch CASA & contract out to the FAA, but for christ's sake avoid UK/JAR-land... :sad:

[MEI]

The IFR pick up, or pop up as we call them in the states are easy enough but if ATC is busy, say in a class B situation, you may get an "UNABLE" reply. ATC really want to have the slip in front of them waiting for you when it's busy, just my .02 cents worth. (At least Seattle approach do).

Winstun, ya I was talking about if your IFR and IMC in that airspace. even if your IFR in VMC its see and avoid!