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Check 6
15th May 2003, 03:07
On May 14, 1948, British rule in Palestine came to an end, and the independent state of Israel was proclaimed at 12:01 the following day.

Ozzy
15th May 2003, 03:19
Did CSA Czech Airlines have a Tel Aviv to Prague service that day? Were there any pax?

Ozzy

Loki
15th May 2003, 04:02
Another country in the Middle East starting with the latter "I" which disobeys UN resolutions and has weapons of mass destruction.

Oooops, the septics like this one though.

Bern Oulli
15th May 2003, 04:08
And attacks its neighbours on a fairly regular basis. Not a danger to world peace though.

Wedge
15th May 2003, 04:39
Here we go. But the anniversary is better known for the year 1975, when Wedge was born!

Although through access to a time machine he managed to register on PPRuNe six years earlier in the year 1969 (see below!) :p

Loki
15th May 2003, 05:30
Thanks Wedge:

Actually it`s the first anniversary of yours truly meeting someone of great significance, unfortunately, the presence of a Mrs Loki means only a limited relationship.

West Coast
15th May 2003, 14:50
You limeys are still smarting about Israel 55 years later I see. A shame the UK has never been a friend to the jews to the extent it should have.

BarryMonday
15th May 2003, 15:13
Don't think you will find there is much real anti-jewish feeling in the UK. Certainly not amongst the older generation who have memories that go back to the 50s and 60s and were not brought up in an education system in the UK that has gone steadily left of centre for the last thirty years.

I think you will find that, with a few exceptions, the vocal anti-jewish lobby on PPRuNe are all quite young and have not yet had the opportunity to live and work in the Middle East, in any capacity that would enable them to form objective and balanced opinions.

Lee
15th May 2003, 17:31
Happy Birthday Israel and the "chosen people of God"

God bless Israel and her people.

Cheers,

Lee

Hilico
15th May 2003, 18:11
Related question, how old is the National Association of Zionist Israelis? (There is an abbreviation but I can't call it to mind just now.) I heard Sharon was a founder member.

And another thing - some posters seem to think that opposition to some Israeli actions constitutes anti-Semitism. It isn't.

Taildragger55
15th May 2003, 22:55
Neve mind Israel, think of the poor people caught in the middle.

Think of the UN seating arrangements: Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Israel.

Some poor Mick has to get caught in the flying insults and paper clips every time ther is a row.

Bubbette
15th May 2003, 23:44
Wow, what a bunch of anti-Semites here. Israel acts only in its self-defense, and you refer to its leader as a Nazi, and act as if its soldiers blow up discos, school buses, Passover celebrations instead of its citizens being the victims of ceaseless terror from before its independence. You should be ashamed of yourselves. But I guess ignorami don't possess that function do you?

Chaffers
16th May 2003, 00:13
Some people on here seem to think that hatred of all things Jewish isn't anti-semitism Hilico.

It is. ;)

Ozzy
16th May 2003, 00:20
Well I have worked with folks from Israel and been there many, many times. I think folks must differentiate between religion and behaviour. Religion is a belief that people are entitled to. Behaviour is something that can be criticised and compared. My experience is that that those from Israel need lessons in behaviour and manners. Not anti semetic, but a commentary on the attitude of the majority of fellow travellers.

Ozzy

Bubbette
16th May 2003, 00:27
If you are saying that individual Israelis can be rude when they travel, *that* I totally agree with!

Conky Joe
16th May 2003, 00:28
Bubbette - bless you and your upbringing to believe that anyone that disagrees with anything that Israel does is an anti-Semite. Please explain - what does that make my Jewish (and fiercely, I mean fiercely! proud of it) stepmother who is mortified at elements of Israel's self-defence/foreign policy.

CJ

flapsforty
16th May 2003, 00:32
I urge current and future contributors to this thread to have a quick read of the Jetblast Rules of Engagement (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83225) .

Judge your post against these simple rules before clicking the "submit" button.
It's pretty straightforward.


--------------------

flapsforty
Super ModBod

Bubbette
16th May 2003, 00:34
I'm reading flaps.
Conky, there are plenty of Jews who hate Jews. Woody Allen comes to mind as one. Moshe Arens' (former defense minister of Israel) brother, who was actively involved in planning terror attacks against Jews is another.

Thanks flaps for noting that the attackers of Israel refrain from their racist remarks.

Loki
16th May 2003, 02:25
West Coast:

How can we be "smarting" about Israel? The vote in the UN (which the UK abstained from) decreed that we should no longer have the mandate for the protection of Palestine.

Being good members of the UN (the UK has always paid its dues by the way), we withdrew. The rest is history.

To be anti Zionist cannot be anti semitic, since the Palestinians and other Arabs are also semitic.

Someone else said that the Israelis don`t go around blowing up discos and bars etc. Quite right, but they have been known to bulldoze peoples homes and steal land owned for generations by the inhabitants.

Oh, I forgot. Today is the birthday of the lord Buddha. May all beings (Palestinian, Israeli, whoever) be happy.

steamchicken
16th May 2003, 03:03
We couldn't get rid of the Palestine Mandate fast enough - we couldn't pay the bleedin' bill at the King David! (Oops - Begin's boys blew it up) Well, anyway, with three-quarters of the country under snow, no coal production due snow, no trains due no coal, even less fuel due no trains, the economy went to hell in a handcart and the Cabinet took several decisions of this magnitude in a great hurry. Why would we have wanted it anyway?

Flying Boat
16th May 2003, 03:03
I'm not Anti Jewish, just Anti Zionist.
I'm not Anti Muslim, just Anti Islamist Extremist.
I'm not Anti Christian, just Anti Right Wing Fanatic Christian.
I'm not Anti American, just Anti 'Everything the Americans do or support is right, everything else is wrong'.

What happened in Europe 60-70 years ago was unforgivable but to take the land of another people to placate the conscience of a nation that did not want to join the war, until pushed into it, was also unforgivable.

The terrorism in Israel today is unacceptable, all terrorism is unacceptable whether state sponsored or independent.

Why has the 'Western' world allowed the conflict to continue by turning a blind eye to the behaviour of one party?

Today we should think of the people that died in Europe before & during the 2nd world war. We should think of the thousands of people whose lives have been ruined between 1948 & now. We should think of the British soldiers & policemen that survived WW2, fighting the NAZIs and anti semitism only to be killed by zionist terrorists before 1948.

God bless Israel, God bless Palestine, God bless Europe, God bless America & God bless the victims on all sides.:sad:

Conky Joe
16th May 2003, 03:22
Allo Flaps, haven't bumped into you for a while! I've refreshed my recall of the Rules of Engagement. I don't think this counts as 'bashing', would be mortified to be that bigoted ... would, if pushed, accept a charge of 'gentle chiding' ...

Bubbette - to think that my stepmother hates Jews is hilarious, must get you on the invite list to Hannukah and Passover celebrations in her house!!

I'm a firm believer that a) there can be more than two camps - 'for us or against us' just doesn't leave room for reasoned argument - and that b) even the most valiant supporters of the State of Israel and its right to exist (include me and my stepmother in that one, she in particular as she has family there) may not always agree with some of its actions.

To simplify in the extreme but an analogy that I think works in this instance - disliking some of the things that my children do doesn't change my fundamental love for them. I think you'd be surprised by how many points we would probably agree on.

CJ

Bubbette
16th May 2003, 04:22
Wow, you people really need to educate yourselves about anti-Semitism (which means "Jew-hate" only, not Palestinian hate, not Arab hate, not Sumerian hate.)

Yes, disliking some things is fine--but do you and others vociferously dislike the Saudis? the Palestinians? The Rwandans? the Sierra Leonians? What about the Belgians? What else would one think when all people attack are the Israelis (most of whom are Jews). And I don't put Israel in the same category as *any* of those mentioned.

FB, that's funny, why would you be against the nationalist movement of the Jewish people if not for racism? Are you against patriotic Italians? Brits? Americans? And what land are you talking about exactly? There never was a "Palestine" ruled by "Palestinians" was there? Were Judea and Samaria ever ruled by "Palestinians"? Was Gaza? So what "illegalities" are you referring to?

Loki, you surely realize that the houses which are destroyed are a. empty (unless by accident some aren't ) and b. used by terrorists for smuggling, creating, planning bombing attacks against said discos. Why shouldn't Israel blow them up?

Flying Boat
16th May 2003, 04:44
Bubba-ette

It is obvious you are closer to the problem side than the solution side, so here it is in simple English from England, the country that gave its name to the language.

Palestine did exist, but as we all know history is written according to the view of the country involved, especially America.

I never mentioned illegalities, but you did so it is obvious to all that you know of some. TELL US!

You are against the 'patriotic' Germans of the late 1920s through to 1945, I am against a similar 'patriotic' mentality today, in Britain, Italy, America & Israel.
It seems to be on the increase in all the above countries, especially with right wing governments presently in power, using the excuse of 'God Willing it'!

It is obvious that you know as much about the world as Mr Bush before his election so I am ending our discussion now, it would be a waste of the earths valuable resources, but as an American you don't understand about that either.

FB:suspect: :E

Bubbette
16th May 2003, 04:52
Flying Boat, again, when did the country ruled by "Palestinians" exist? Who were its leaders? Where was it located? Inquiring minds want to know. The "illegalities" were mentioned by someone else, sorry.

Loki
16th May 2003, 05:05
Bubbette;

I`ve just looked the words up in my sons dictionary.

Semite: Member of a group of peoples who speak a semitic language such as the Jews and Arabs.

It derives from Latin, and means descendant of Shem, eldest of Noahs sons.

(Perhaps you have different dictionaries where you come from)


So, how am I anti semitic?

Bubbette
16th May 2003, 05:09
I don't think I said you were, but if you apply standards to a predominantly Jewish country, or Jewish leadership, or Jewish people that you don't apply to any other country etc., that would be the indiciator.

The Crimson Fruitbat
16th May 2003, 05:58
I'm not Anti Jewish, just Anti Zionist.
I'm not Anti Muslim, just Anti Islamist Extremist.
I'm not Anti Christian, just Anti Right Wing Fanatic Christian.
I'm not Anti American, just Anti 'Everything the Americans do or support is right, everything else is wrong'.

The Flying Boat's post just about covers it....Its called MODERATION and TOLERANCE and ANTI-EXTREMIST! (as in harmonious tolerance....family of man and all that)

The moderators run a tight ship and the ROE is strictly enforced, so why do people get earmarked as anti-semitic when their views are critical of Israel's current foreign policy NOT the followers of Judaism?

In tolerant nations its possible to pop down the local and have a pint with Qasim (Islamic), Benjamin (Jewish), Bob (Protestant), Peter (Catholic), Dmitri (Orthodox) and Graham (Atheist) without a mini WW3 blowing up and actually having a few laughs (we all have wives, kids, bad golf habits etc etc). If you work in aviation you probably share some space with these guys/girls as well...I work with people from Islamic, Jewish, Orthodox, Christian and various other non-specific religious backgrounds, its not an issue and no one gives a toss.

Powerful Zionists with intolerant views in Israel/USA and Right-wing Christians in DC are very much in the global minority but their bullsh!t can drag the planet into stupid little wars that can escalate into bigger and nastier campaigns.....why?

tony draper
16th May 2003, 06:20
Isreal has managed to fight its wars all by itself to date with a great deal of success,
Happy birthday Isreal, and may you have many more.

The Crimson Fruitbat
16th May 2003, 06:52
Isreal has managed to fight its wars all by itself to date

Not counting the tens of billions in "aid" she receives from the USA, nor the "shared" technology (with USA and South Africa) that gives her nuclear capability.

However, the IDF's tactical and strategic initiatives in '67 and '73 are a benchmark for military forces to emulate.

Without the powerbase on Wall St, Capitol Hill and in the White House that esteemed military capability would be somewhat diminished.

Unless she learns to live harmoniously with her neighbours (and her neighbours with her) she has a finite life expectancy IMHO.

tony draper
16th May 2003, 06:58
Ah you mean just like our last war in Europe, I seem to recal America payed a chunk for that one as well, including large amounts of cash for the rebuilding.

PA38
16th May 2003, 07:24
I can call my local elected leaders, I can call central government, I can ridicule the monarchy, but heaven help me if I dare to dare call someone who is different by virtue of their skin colour, or religion.

Something is badly wrong:uhoh:

Bubbette
16th May 2003, 07:29
Powerful Zionists with intolerant views in Israel/USA and Right-wing Christians in DC are very much in the global minority but their bullsh!t can drag the planet into stupid little wars that can escalate into bigger and nastier campaigns.....why?

Powerful Zionists? Don't you mean Jews who control the US? Nah, doesn't sound like Jew-hate to me, no, not at all.
Re Israel's neighbors, they are the ones whose schoolbooks teach destruction of the state of Israel, not vice versa.

Charlie Foxtrot India
16th May 2003, 18:29
Here is my favourite Israeli joke, (told to me by an Jewish Israeli)

One day two British archeologists diggin' around in Egypt find an ancient but very well preserved Mummy. They take it back to the British Museum, and try to find out who it was, how long ago it ruled Egypt, etc etc. No luck there. So they go to the States and ask all the leading experts there to help with their research. After a few years still they have no clue who the mummy was. Egyptologists and archeologists from all over the world try to identify the mummy, and still no luck, until an Israeli scientist says "I'll take it home to Israel and I bet we will know the identity and age of the mummy within a week!"

Two days later he calls the English archeologists, "His name is King Sillyegyptianname, and he died in 1000 BC"

"How did you find that out?" ask the British archeaologists.

"Easy, we handed him over to Mossad, and he confessed!" :cool:

Conky Joe
16th May 2003, 19:32
Bubbette

Yes, disliking some things is fine--but do you and others vociferously dislike the Saudis? the Palestinians? The Rwandans? the Sierra Leonians? What about the Belgians? What else would one think when all people attack are the Israelis (most of whom are Jews).

Scwheetheart - I am certainly 'vociferous' in my dislike of some of the things that are done in Israel's name, likewise Palestine. Much better to be vociferous (definition: vehement, clamorous) if it's something you believe in, especially if you can make a good argument. You are vociferous in your beliefs and and proud of it - and why not? And anyway, I think we're making progress - we agree that it's OK to dislike some things - this is good! :)

I don't 'vociferously' dislike all Israelis, (I don't know all of them! :p) and for the same reasons the same applies to the countries you listed - a quick refresher of their situations:


Saudi - a country attempting to balance an unwelcome presence of foreign workers, the benefits of the income generated, a fervent religious quarter and an unstable government - recipe for disaster. The Saudis in many ways would have been much better off if the West hadn't gone in to 'help' them with their oil; in no way excuses what nationals of that country have done of late but no oil, no expats - just happy little bedu.

The Rwandan people are suffereing horrendously in a civil war which the outside world really can't be arsed to do too much about.

Sierra Leone - ditto.

The Belgians - well, guilty of colonialism but not alone on that - they do make bl**dy good choc and are also, bless them, interminably boring by repute - possibly criminal offences but i can't be asked to work up any 'vociferous' opinion - you got me there.

And, well, the Palestinians - as we know, there are Palestinians that feel the only way they have to prove their point is to blow up innocent Israelis - families on both sides lose out and the governments, like stroppy children, can't be brought to the table - heartbreaking.


Interesting that you should mention the African countries (have to say I miss the point on Belgium) - and there are others out there too that are worthy of attention eg Tibet, Kashmir etc.

Feel aggrieved at anti-Israeli sentiment, certainly. But be bl**dy grateful that the country is so 'vociferously' defended as well. Sierra Leone and Rwanda, amongst others, would be thankful for 1/10th of the interest in their problems and international peace efforts that Israel/Palestine receive.

CJ

PS Possibly a bit naughty but hey, it's JB - I understand your feelings on Israel's right to exist are based in part on historical precedence - I'm not arguing that point and bearing it in mind - what's your position on the rights of the American Indians? :p

PPS Check 6 - you did a great job with the touch paper!!:p

Edited for grammar.

Alty Meter
17th May 2003, 06:59
Waste of time trying to have a sensible discussion about this topic. The usual suspect always accuses people who criticise Israeli government policy of being anti-semitic.
Since she's such an expert, maybe she can tell us how many Israelis have been killed by suicide bombers compared with how many Palestinians have been killed by invading Israeli forces in the past 12, 6 or 3 months?
Arafat and Sharon are both evil murderous [email protected] the world would be better off without IMHO.

Bubbette
17th May 2003, 08:27
As I said, to the extent that Israel gets criticized for acting in self defense, while no other country does sounds suspicious to me. And what is Israel invading exactly? Jordan? Egypt? I think not.

solotk
17th May 2003, 10:35
I'm actually amazed the thread is still here

Wino
17th May 2003, 13:37
Alty meter.

I do find it intestesting that you find it to be morally equivelent when Israel shoots and kills armed terrorists, and when palestinians blow up bombs in schools and targets women and children.

If you are asking how many women and children are, killed and injured by the Israeli's vs howmany are killed and injured by the Palestinians, then the Palestinians are not going to come out looking good at all.

Yes, you will find individual cases where women and children were killed in the crossfire by Israeli's but you won't find that wholesale slaughter that is carried out by the Palestinians.

Cheers
Wino

Nani
17th May 2003, 15:11
Yom Ha'atzmaut

Happy Birthday Israel.

And my favourite joke,

At an emergency meeting of the UN regarding another conflict in the Middle East, the floor was given to the Israeli Consul. The Israeli Consul began, "Ladies and gentlemen, before I commence with my speech, I wanted to relay an old story to all of you....

When Moses was leading the Jews out of Egypt he had to go through deserts, and prairies, and even more deserts....The people became thirsty and needed water. So Moses struck the side of a mountain with his cane and at the sight of that mountain a pond appeared with crystal clean, cool water. And the people rejoiced and drank to their hearts' content. Moses wished to cleanse his whole body, so he went over to the other side of the pond, took all of his clothes off, and dove into the cool waters. Only when Moses came out of the water he discovered that all his clothes had been stolen....And I have reasons to believe that the Palestinians stole his clothes."

Yasser Arafat, hearing this accusation, jumped out of his seat and screamed, "This is a travesty. It is widely known that there were no Palestinians there at the time!!!"

"And with that in mind" said the Israeli Consul, "let me begin my
speech...."

;)

AntiCrash
17th May 2003, 23:42
Happy 55th! May this year bring Shalom to all.

Loki
18th May 2003, 00:17
I`m quite prepared to wish anyone happiness, but I hope this anniversary will be the last under such intolerable and unjust conditions.

Completely optimistic and unrealistic, since the protagonists both have to display goodwill and be willing to compromise.

Grandpa
18th May 2003, 06:46
Not any difficulty to find which:

PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace for Israel!

For the grown-up on this thread, they can understand that this sincere whish is also adressed to Palestine.

For Iraq..............another long way to come.

bluskis
18th May 2003, 06:54
West Coast

It may have escaped your notice that England, nay Great Britain as it was then, had a Prime Minister called Disraeli in the 1800's,

When are the US of A going to elect a member of the faith instead of just having them skulking behind puppet presidents?

Synthetic
18th May 2003, 08:30
A curiosity. Watching the film 'The battle of Britain', at the end, amongst the roll of honour, the Israeli Air Force are included. I did not think that Israel was a state at the time. Anyone explain?

AntiCrash
18th May 2003, 09:59
And my friend Bluskis, Great Britain also had a fellow by the name of Alexander James Balfour! May God Bless him. :ok: