Fatigue in Pilots (Merged)

[Laurienz]

There have recently been concerns from pilots regarding Flight Time Limitations. I am currently conducting a study looking at FTL and fatigue in short haul pilots for my MSc project at Birmingham University and would appreciate your help by completing a brief questionnaire. (My student status can be authenticated by email to [email protected] ) My husband is an airline pilot so we are sensitive to and have some understanding of the concerns.

Please press HERE (http://web.bham.ac.uk/lxh296/) to go to the questionnaire.:ok:

[Laurienz]

Thanks to those pilots who have responded to my questionnaire on pilot fatigue (links on this forum under pilot fatigue). I am getting some interesting replies. A recurring theme is 'spirit' of CAP 371 being ignored, moving from early starts to late nights, being called at the end of stand by duties therefore not having sufficient rest, falling to sleep on drive home, transition from duties abroad to local flights and disruption to circadian rhythms.

One respondent wrote that people who write the fatigue management programmes should go on line for a week. Having spent time shadowing pilots on periods of duty and subjecting myself to the same conditions I would agree with that point.

Any anecdotal evidence of fatigue or comments about FTL's would be appreciated. Once completed, the results of this study will be available on line and eventually published in the aviation and occupational health journals.

For questionnaire go to
http://web.bham.ac.uk/lxh296/

Thanks

laurie

[porky pilot]

about time somebody looked into the abuse of FTL's that has become the norm in our industry.
Flying night freight I spent at least 50% of my time trying to keep at least one eye open then in the morning had the task of trying to drive home whilst knackered. (scaring myself at least 3 times per year)
Sleep during the day is not worth sleep at night so the credit system doesn't work.
Have a go at this survey - it didn't take long and lets hope some good comes out of it before they finally turn a skilled and responsible job into a bus driver. (although bus drivers have greater controls over the hours worked)

[porky pilot]

This is a good one, please help get fatigue out in the open.

P.P.

[redsnail]

Yep, I've filled it in.

[Laurienz]

Thanks to everyone so far who has responded to the questionnaire. It's looking good. I've had some really interesting and informative replies/comments. Will keep everyone informed of the results.

laurie:ok:

[BigRab]

I welcome anyone taking the time to carry out reserch on this subject. I would urge pilots to take a few moments to complete the survey.

It includes a comments section, my response to which I reproduce below:

The tiredness and fatigue problem can be more related to the time of the duties, and the changing of times of duties, e.g. from morning to evening or visa versa than the total amount of duty.

Humans are all different and some people can cope with early starts or nights than others.

I am not a mornings person and am finding a trend for earlier and earlier starts. Report times of 4.30 am local, requiring wake up at times from 3 am often mean that I have had only a few hours sleep (despite trying to go to bed early). The other day I feel asleep in the cruise (as pilot non handling at 11am). I often feel exhausted by lunch time and have had to make arrangements for rest accommodation local to the airport although my home is only 50 motorway miles away, a normal journey time of a hour; because I am too tired to safely drive home.

That being the case how wise is it to be legally in charge of an airliner with hundreds of peoples lives in my hands?

A system which allows pilots to have some choice in the selections of duties which best suits them, combined with sensible regulations (which take into account typical commuting times), would in my view be safer, better for health and domestic relations and has the potential to improve productivity.

I hope that it does not take a serious accident before the authorities take notice.

[PAXboy]

I hope that it does not take a serious accident before the authorities take notice. If I was to apply managerial behaviour in other business to this circumstance?

1) No action until people dead and it is PROVED that fatigue was major cause.
2) Pilot blamed for not managing their leisure time better to fit in with schedule (no matter how crazy that schedule might have been) "S/He knew their roster two weeks in advance and knew the rules - s/he should have adjusted the life of their spouse and children to suit us."
3) No one in ops is asked, "How do you take account of individuals when rostering?" Of course, if they did, the answer would be "Everyone is alike. They can all perform to the same degree at 05:00 or 17:00."
4) Each airline appoints someone with the title of "Fatigue Manager".
5) Job done, carry on as normal.

[Wig Wag]

PAXboy has a really good idea. Creating the position of fatigue manager would be an entirely appropriate measure given the scale of the problem and the risk to passengers.

A fatigue manager could have terms of reference to manage fatigue in an holistic way. This would go way beyond simply assuming that compliance with CAP 371 prevents fatigue. Many issues could be considered.

However, just imagine the howls of objection from the airlines. A fatigue manager would put a break on the one issue that the airlines do want to resolve - production. Resolving fatigue issues ultimately means paying for more pilots.

[PAXboy]

Wig Wag, Thanks for your comment. I think that the subject needs an enormous amount of attention. It is looks as if airlines no longer look at 'the big picture' as managers like to say.

Since each 'manager' is looking at an ever narrower area, as long as the criteria that they look at are met - no problem.

I am one who could easily work regular night shifts but am lousy at morning shifts. When I have to get up early (anything before 09:00!) I am well below my best. I have changed my lifestyle to suit the way my body operates. Others may not be able to do this.

By the way, as you probably guessed, the list of actions I set out - was entirely tongue-in-cheek. Mondern managers will never take action until forced to. It is cheaper to allow the mistakes to happen and then fix them - than to prevent the mistakes in the first place. This is standard across almost all industries now. The problem here is that people are more likely to die.

[Laurienz]

Many pilots have pointed out that the important aspect of fatigue is that we are all different - some people are 'morning' people and thus perform better for early morning starts whilst others are 'evening' people and prefer working late. With this in mind is there any mileage in self rostering? Would it be possible in this industry?

When i worked in an A and E dept on shifts we trialled this and were quite amazed at how well it worked. At the beginning of the month a blank roster was put on the wall and people filled in the gaps, fulfilling certain criteria on hours etc. It was surprising how the 'unpopular' shifts got covered as, for whatever reason there were always people who wanted to do weekends/nights/earlies etc. If there were certain shifts that wern't being covered, everyone had to take their fair share. It had its teething problems but on the whole everyone was really happy with it. can it work in aviation?

Alternatively is there not some computer programme that can follow the Ottawa shift system? ie: ensure that rotas go in a forward rotation and not dodge about. The body doesn't cope very well with constantly trying to adjust from nights to days and back.

I'm not knocking crewing as I know they have a really difficult job with minimum crew but are these ideas viable?

Laurie

PS Keep filling in the questionnaire - it will all help
http://web.bham.ac.uk/lxh296/ :ok:

[Wig Wag]

A couple of comments here:

For PAXboy;

>>It is cheaper to allow the mistakes to happen and then fix them - than to prevent the mistakes in the first place<<

Well, not really. Take the example of an airliner that is struck by a ground vehicle. The direct cost of repairs may run into several hundred thousand pounds. Then the airline has to lease in another aircraft to run the service. Then there are the litigation costs and the cost in man hours sorting out the problem.

Effect safety monitoring of such hazards actually SAVES money.

For Laurienz;

>>With this in mind is there any mileage in self rostering? Would it be possible in this industry?<<

I think it is a great idea. However, the obstacles are political. Airlines regards their pilots as a resource. They like total control over rostering issues as a way of maximising usage. A system which put the control of the roster in with the pilots will always be rejected by the industry however desirable it may be.

I like the sound of your MSc project. Keep up the good work.

[PAXboy]

WW. Certainly! I was making a generalisation! :uhoh: However, if the company skimps on saftey training for 20 years. Hires less skilled people and so on - if they have one such incident as you mention in 20 years?

I have NO IDEA what the figures are but, in commerce, I have seen people cut back on training, saftey and provision of new equipment of anything they can cut back on.

When it all goes wrong, some bloke rolls up his sleeves and fixes it by throwing money at the problem. He then gets praised for fixing a problem that he should not have allowed to happen!

The problem is that people do not get praised for nothing going wrong - they get praised for fixing 'situations'. It is one of the reasons that I left structured employment.

I realise that the airline biz has closer scrutiny and standards to follow but I'd lay a bet that they are all trying the same fiddles and cut backs as their mates in other industries!

[Wig Wag]

>>I realise that the airline biz has closer scrutiny and standards to follow but I'd lay a bet that they are all trying the same fiddles and cut backs as their mates in other industries!<<

You made me chuckle in to my tea, PAXboy. Of course that is what happens.

The type of incident I described is the tip of the iceberg of problems the ailline deals with. If you ever get close to a B737 on hte ramp you will see it is full of little dents and scratches. These are recorded in the damage control log. All these things cost money over the years but could be prevented by effective safety management systems.

The point is that spending money on safety is about the the avoidance off loss as opposed the the creation of profit. That is very hard for CEO's and others to comprehend.

Airline quality management is supposed to take care of this issue. However, it depends on whether the airline is prepared to employ the kind of strong minded individual who can take of the issues.

Often airlines employ safety personnel who they can manipulate and thus keep the cost down.

[PAXboy]

WW: ;) know the feeling. You are right about the nicks and nudges building up of course. It appears to be one of the main areas where the gaps are starting to show. Outsource the ramp work, cut back on saftey training, speed up the turn rounds, hire staff that are cheaper and Bingo!

From my field, (slightly off topic) here is an example of a purchasing manager taking two decions that saved money - on paper. These are from first hand experience when working in the brand new building built as HQ for a well known high street group.

1) On each floor, telecomms / IT cabinets needed for local service, feeding into the fibre back-bone down to the main server rooms. Purchasing manager decided not to enclose them in simple rooms to save money. Consequently, the people that sat near the cabinets had to put up with noise cooling fans every second of their day. These parts of the floors became lower productivity areas and they had to move photocopiers and filing to them as folks did not want to sit there. Waste of prime space that they have just paid for.

2) Same man rejects the telecomms departments choice of cabinets (You know the kind of thing - those big racks with plexiglass fronts and tons of winking led's in side). He chose ones that were cheaper. Cheaper because he found out that only occasionally did we need to access the rear of the cabinet. So he bought cabs that had a front DOOR but a rear PANEL. To remove, you needed a hex nut driver and to get six bolts out and back. Not every day but often and when needed - in a hurry.

So, he saved money on his budget and proved what a super guy he was to the company ... and reduced the effective working space on every floor and made us curse him every week.

That is what it takes to be a 'manager' these days. :hmm:

[Laurienz]

Many thanks for your replies. I have had some really interesting (although not unexpected) responses but the intensity of feelings regarding FTL's is quite marked.

I am aware that it may not be looked on too keenly by the CAA but I am determined that they will get a copy of the results as will BALPA and any other interested parties. At least it will be backed up by solid research rather than just anecdotal evidence so it can't be ignored quite so easily. The project has been accepted, in principle for publication by a peer review occupational health journal and will also be offered to flying mgazines at the appropriate time.

I am now collating the results with the study completed by August so will be able to post results Sept.

Thanks for encouragement and for everyone's help who has contributed.

Laurie:ok: