Self Funding? Take a look...

[skysoarer]

If, like me, you are also looking at self-funding options for your ATPL training then take a look at http://www.epst.co.uk

That is for European Pilot Selection and Training. They offer a complete scheme where they can test you to see if you are a suitable candidate or whether you may be wasting your time/money. You then go on to commence training at either BAe Systems Flight Training in Spain, or Wester Michigan University in the USA. Once you complete training at one of these establishments you then undergo advanced training (Jet Familiarization Course (JFC) inclusive of an MCC course) at The ATP Academy. They also help you to find a job if an airline like BA does not take you on soon after completion.

EPST can arrange finance for you through the ABN-AMRO bank; this is in the form of a loan that covers all costs including travel, accomodation and meals. All you need extra to this that to cover the selection process plus pocket money. If you choose to arrange your own finance, HSBC also offer a "Professional Studies Loan" that is designed around a CPL so is also ideal. I could find no details on their website, but ask in one of their branches and they will know what you mean.

The point worth noting with this arrangement is that no guarantee is required for the loan, so your parents need not worry about their house! Also, repayments for the loan begin once your first pilot salary has been received.

Please see the website above for further details. In my opinion, for self-funding people this is one of the most complete options out there due. All organisations used have a good reputation.

I hope this helps any of you out there. There are a wide range of options available for pilot training such as sponsorships and the like, aswell as modular courses. If you have any queries on what I have described either reply to this post, contact EPST or myself at [email protected] and I or they will try our best to answer.

[Slipslide]

Is my understanding of it correct?

Complete self funded but like a Career Development Loan (which you do not have to be until you get your first job)

Guaranteed job.

Is it ongoing?

cheers

[skysoarer]

It is a big loan, believe me. But equable to what you would pay at any good school.

A job is not guaranteed, but there is a contingency fund if you don't get a job after two years to help with the bank situation. I know not of a pilot graduating from any school in the south-west UK who has not got a job within half this time. But there is the risk. Make sure you have something to fall back on, such as a degree or HND, to help you to find alternative work if neccessary.

I highly recommend the website for EPST that describes the scheme. I am not a representative of EPST or in any way affiliated, like many others I'm simply looking at all options and this is part of what I have found out.

At the minute, the banking arrangements are a temporary arrangement until September. BUT, provided you can arrange the finance you are welcome to apply whenever. HSBC is another good bank for arranging very competitive finance.

Hope this helps. Oh, also if you see any Flight Training exhibitions on the cards go to them. Both West Mich. and BAe were at the Flyer exhibition earlier this year and are who put me in contact with EPST.

Good luck! What is your current situation? College, working, school even?

Regards

Graeme Scott
[email protected]

[Tarmach]

If its all funded by yourself why do you have to have 5 phases of interviews/tests before one is accepted entry? Yes I know its to screen the people who shouldn't be pilots out of the equation, but even so. where do you take these tests and what pass rates are achieved?

[skysoarer]

The testing isn't like that. They simply want to stop people who may have difficulty either completing the training or working in an airline environment from causing themselves more grief than is necessary. I have not sat the tests yet, I may not be suitable, but I would certainly want to know before any large amounts of money are spent and I have a large loan over my head.

Personally, I would highly recommend sitting tests like these while you still have time to explore other career options. Applying to airline sponsorships during uni gives you an idea of how far you could go, Gapan is another good provider of apptitude testing. EPST also offers these tests to anyone interested in finding out, you don't have to apply for training to sit them.

Since EPST is based in Amsterdam, the tests are arranged to be in a Hotel or similar venue and take a few hours to complete. I don't see how the pass rate matters, it depends on the quality and capability of those sitting them. If 50 grunts apply who don't know their up from their down, you're gonna end up with a 0% pass rate whatever. They will test your spacial awareness, mathematical ability; basically pilot related things as opposed to everything that the Morrisby tests do.

After doing the tests, provided you get a positive result, a medical is the next milestone to becoming a pilot.

A need to go now, I'll check this thread in the next few days. In the meantime check http://www.epst.co.uk as this will answer many questions + read all pages as all are useful.

Best regards

Graeme Scott
[email protected]

[BigTimeWannabe]

I like the sound of this scheme, especially with the ABN-AMRO loan that goes with it. When I first came across EUROPILOT a few months back there wasn't a loan facility like the one on offer now.

The way I see it their tests may be similar to BA's standards, because they set you up with a JET job after, and they will be doing this whilst you are training, so they need some evidence that you can make it. Also the tests can also act as part of the 'Business Plan' for the bank. ABN-AMRo wouldn't have agreed to such a loan without being promised a screening process inline with major airlines! Anyway that was my analysis, I personally am very interested, and will be making further enquiries. Unfortunately this company is based in Holland. They say on the website there will be an office opening in the UK, so I'll wait for that.

Cheers

BTW

[Final Destination]

I'm quite embarassed that I had never heard of this company until now. Checked it out and all I can say quality.
Great post guys. Cheers FD.

[skysoarer]

I found out about EPST at a Flyer exhibition earlier this year from a representative of West Michigan.

Some interesting stuff on your post BigTimeWannabe, but I'm pretty sure the job finding occurs mostly after training. Ok, some job scouts from airlines may turn up at the school every now and then to make recommendations to airlines.

Althrough based in Holland, the company does arrange the tests in UK venues such as hotels. So the location of them is irrelevant as all necessary stuff can be done in the UK.

Glad I could help, I'll keep checking this thread for a while.

Regards

Graeme Scott
[email protected]

[PFO]

I wrote to BA for their Cadetship last year and got a message on my answermachine because I was too old giving me the name of a lady at BA to call regarding DEP and, what at the time I thought she said was the "SFT" scheme - now on reflection maybe she said "EPST" scheme??!!!!

PFO

[BigTimeWannabe]

PFO,

They both sound right, cos SFT is a flight school in Bournemouth. And EPST is the thing we're talking about on this thread based in Holland.

I would call that lady again to clarify.

BTW

[KnightOnTheTownUK]

I have just looked at the epst website and the scheme does look very good.

However..

I would like to know what the repayment details are for this HUGE loan that would be taken out, ie repayment period, interest charged apr, penalty clauses etc.

Also the fact that the selection costs are very high worries me slightly. I mean just hyperthetically (spelling???) it would be a good money earner to allow a lot of candidates throught to stage 3 or 4, having charged them an awful lot of money to get there, and then tell them they have not been successful. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this is the case (or indeed what epst are doing) but I'd like to know what percentage are turned down after initial selection (having only invested minor sums)?? I'd be worried that even if they knew the candidate was unsuitable, they could let them through to the more pricey stages before giving them the boot.

Has anyone contacted BA to verify their connection with this scheme??

These are my concerns when thinking of applying to this scheme which appears to have no drawbacks apart from selection costs.


Any ideas anyone??

[skysoarer]

Knight;

I must admit, the thought has/does cross my mind. The scheme does seem extremely thorough and if you can afford the loan it seems a good choice.

I imagine the charges for each stage are similar to those Cabair charge for their phases for partial sponsorships, although they do say it is a non-profit charge in this case.

They do offer you the chance to sit the test scheme alone to satisfy curiosity, so do Gapan. Personally I would like to sit both at some point.

The only thing bothering me really at the moment is that loan; I know HSBC do a pretty reasonable deal similar to the AMRO thing and I have a leaflet detailing it in full. I'm still looking for stuff about the AMRO one. If in doubt I'll email EPST, I'm sure they know all the details.

EPST is an organisation after all, so they have to make some money after all. This is probably in the form of a fee airlines may pay after grabbing pilots within the scheme. Not sure... As for the test fees, with partial sponsorships especially, they seem to be pretty standard so I personally will just pay and get on with it. As for BA, their jobs site is down at the minute so I'll check later as I would like to email them.

Let me know what you think/find out.

Regards

Graeme Scott
[email protected]

[Vicious Squirrel]

Hi folks,

Hmmmmm, I might regret this.........

I think I must be getting very cynical in my old age, but they're asking for nearly six hundred quid for these tests, at the end of which they could very easily just tell you bugger off! Has anyone been through this experience already? Can anyone put a figure on the pass rate for these tests?

In reply to a similar concern Skysoarer stated:

'The testing isn't like that. They simply want to stop people who may have difficulty either completing the training or working in an airline environment from causing themselves more grief than is necessary. I have not sat the tests yet, I may not be suitable, but I would certainly want to know before any large amounts of money are spent and I have a large loan over my head.'

I don't accept that it costs six hundered quid and five stages of testing to find out whether or not you have the aptitude to fly. This sounds more as though they're looking for a very high level of aptitude (a la BA sponsorships) rather than folks 'who don't know their up from their down'!!!

I'm under the impression that the GAPAN tests are a pretty good indication of someones potential to become a pilot (if they're derived from RAF's own selection process then I'm not going to argue), yet these only cost £150.

So what gives? These tests are definately not simply to weed out those with poor aptitude, these appear (simply because of the description of the five stages, five!!!) to be of the kind that select the best.

So, has anyone done these tests? Has anyone trained with EPST? As Knight mentioned, has anyone contacted BA to verify the information on the website?

I've done some aptitudes already and know that I'm suited (if not particularly) to a career as a pilot, but I'm not willing to shell out £600 for the chance at a $88000 loan if I'm not going to meet what could be extremely high standards.

All IMHO of course.......

VS

[KnightOnTheTownUK]

SkySoarer

When you say it seems like a good scheme if you can afford the load, I mean who can afford a £60000 loan?? Like I said before I would like to know what the repayments would be. If EPST find you a job then great but you could still be crippled by the repayments to the loan for a large number of years after you qualify. I mean do the sums, a £50000 loan at 8.9% over 25 years is still £407.34 per month, then you've got a mortgage on top etc.. pretty daunting eh! What are the terms for the HSBC loan and could you get a big enough loan from them??
Then what if you don't get a job after qualifing?? Sorry to be so pessimistic but it is food for thought. I guess you'd have to try to put some capital in yourself to start with.

As for the selection tests, if you look on their website (well hidden) it does give details for the costs. Basically it is:

Compass test = £ 40.--
Phase 1 and 2 = £ 250.--
Phase 3 and 4 = £ 300.--
The costs for phase 3 and 4 will only be charged for candidates who pass phase 1 and 2 successfully.
The medical selection and cost is the candidates own responsibility.

Phase 4 and 5 are from what I gather medicals. So aswell as the £300 for 3 and 4 add £400 for phase 5 which is the Class one.

Quite pricey, no??

Anyway at the of the day if you get to fly a nice shiny jet I probably wouldn't be too gutted!

Let me know of any other info you get, like how long it takes to apply, is it too late for the september intake? And the BA connection, at what point do you interview/get recommended for BA??

Cheers

K

[PFO]

With regard to the message I got from BA - would imagine that she meant the "EPST" scheme as I cannot see any affiliation between BA and SFT - surely if they were setting up a scheme such as this they would push you in the direction of BAe or WMU?

Anyone got any ideas on this??

PFO

ps. from my rough calculations:

£60k over 5 years at say 9% p.a. is £1245 per month to repay! I would find out the costs if I were you............

[scroggs]

I would have thought that anyone prepared to take the risk of lending you $95,000 is entitled to assess what your liklihood of passing their course is!
I don't know anything about this particular scheme other than what I can gather from the website but, in the absence of more airline-sponsored schemes, this is likely to be the pattern of things to come. One of the perennial complaints that airlines have about recruits from the self-funded route is that there has been no selection for aptitude. This can result in a candidate who has managed to get an ATPL by dint of hard work and little talent - and, as such, has reached or exceeded their limit in aircraft. Unfortunately, that is only found out after much (extended) training in an expensive jet. EPTS's reputation with the airlones will depend on the quality of their output - they must ensure that their graduates are the best advert for their training scheme.
Of course, if the UK or JAA airlines got their act together and started a UK or European Airline Training School, with part or full government funding (as is the case for most professions), there would be no need for you to take on such a frightening financial commitment. You can be sure, though, that you'd undergo very stringent selection tests!
On that subject, how many of you are aware that the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN) offers aptitude testing at RAF Cranwell for considerably less than £600. If you are considering risking £50,000-plus of your own money on a flying career, don't you think it would be worth finding out what your chances of success are? GAPAN, I believe, have their own website. Check it out.

------------------
Scroggs
Wannabe Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[skysoarer]

Thanks scroggs... I think that summarises the situation pretty well without the need for my fingers falling off cause of all this typing!

You would think that, given the predicted pilot shortage in the next 5 years, the government would do something to entice more people into flying - but no, I can't see that on the election agenda...

I mentioned the Gapan tests on an earlier posting, however this seems to have slipped through the net. But these tests cover the ground gone over by epst's initial selection that can be done separately plus a bit more. I personally wouldn't knock either option, however Gapan run theirs on a regular basis in the UK while epst's are more sparse as they have no uk base (yet...).

Following the progress of this thread, the MD of Epst has updated the Financial link on the website to show more details about the loan involved. I worked out the repayments to be just under £400 realistically, not out of the question since a friend I know who works for the ex-Brymon is paying mid-£300's a month. That assumes a 6% IR over 15 years. I would like to know the real figures through...

This is my personal plan:
1: Get a degree or equivalent, if anything goes wrong you can/will get a job with this.
2: If you think there is anything seriously wrong with you which could fail a medical, find out if it will. Get advice from a doctor who can do Class 2's for an idea.
3: Attend flight training exhibitions, speak to school training staff. Speak to others who have self-funded, been sponsored, etc and get their point of view - they should have no axe to grind.
4: Not essential, but if you can try and get some flying experience. One ex-captain told me that he'd love to make it compulsary for every pilot to get some experience gliding as it forces you to plan ahead, i.e. one chance at landing or it'll sting a bit kind of thing. Universities/Colleges usually have an ATC/UAS you can join or there may be independant clubs like the one I'm in nearby.
5: If all is go in the health department, apply for airline sponsorships and sit their initial tests for the practice - for £50 its worth it. Gapan/EPST tests are also a very good idea. If you think you can, go all the way by all means but don't give up your degree to do so - you may need it in later years!
6: If the tests think you can do it, get that Class 1. Its £400 the first time at Gatwick, but only £80 for each successive renewal.
7: If you got that sponsorship place, go for it. Otherwise be applying to schemes/banks for finance/training. This is what this thread has been all about, scout around for various routes.

I may formalise this in the future and make it available on the web. Comments/suggestions are welcome. It makes sense to me anyway.

[Vicious Squirrel]

So now what? Do I go for the GAPAN test or the EPST?! (Not that I can afford either)!!!

DOH.........

VS

[RRtay]

One slight problem with all of this, borrow 95K with no job guarantee. The only jobs they help you find is as Second Officer for a monthly wage of £700 because that is the only way the airlines will accept these guys with no experience. Got this from the horses mouth both at Ryan and eJ.

[scroggs]

It looks like Atlantic's somewhat similar scheme is about to fold. I suspect that this is because there is insufficient demand from UK airlines for their graduates. EPTS's horizons are wider, but I'd keep a careful eye on their prospects.
The 'pilot shortage', that many of you are pinning your hopes on, is unlikely to be as dramatic as you hope. The real shortage, if there is one, is in jet-experienced, type-rated, multi-thousand hour commercial pilots. That's because there has been a fairly long period of expansion in the major airlines, which is continuing for now, but is likely to stall somewhat after this year in response the the global economic slow-down. There hasn't really been a similar expansion in the lines that feed the majors, other than in the low-cost sector. These guys, however, don't see themselves as steps on the piloting ladder, but as a career destination. They fly fairly serious equipment, and they are competing with the majors for high-time pilots.
My gut feeling is that the overall number of jobs at the bottom of the ladder hasn't changed much over the last few years, but that the career pyramid has fattened. That means that once you're in, you should have good prospects, but that it's as difficult to get on the bottom step as ever. The economic slowdown (let's hope it's not a recession) is not likely to improve that picture.

------------------
Scroggs
Wannabe Forum Moderator
[email protected]

[skysoarer]

To summerise, I enclose part of a reply I received from the MD of EPST. It details "the four (4) basic outcomes which can result of this scheme:
1. Student is successful with the BA's SSP selection after the training and go to BA.

2. Student is not selected or recommended for BA and is successful with the ATP Scheme and is placed via CTC.

3. Student fails during training and the cost is covered by contingency fund.

4. Student has not failed but has no job either by BA or ATP Scheme two years after completion and the contingency fund will pay also.

So what is the risk?"

The only one I see is if you fail the course due to Grosse Misconduct, in which case the contingency fund does not cover you. I'd still rather have a degree on my back through...

Thanks scroggs for the extra info regarding the immediate future, I'll certainly keep a tab on the situation.

Best regards

Graeme Scott
[email protected]

[skysoarer]

I do hope this information has been helpful to people. I can be contacted via the email address [email protected] . Alternatively, if you live in the West country and are bored come see our club at http://www.vowhgc.8m.com .

I'll continue to check this thread since I got an email from someone today so its still being looked at I guess.

Good luck to you all! Chocks away!

Graeme Scott

[Buggs]

I've not looked at their website in depth yet but would you still have to pay for their screening process if you'd already forked out for the GAPAN equivalent?

I guess with their contingency fund then you'd probably have to pass their tests to qualify. But its a thought.

[skysoarer]

As far as I know, you must sit EPST's tests in order to get on a course with them. Without these the contingency fund does not apply. Gapan's tests, to my knowledge, inform you if you have the mental ability to complete an ATPL course; EPST's tests go further in a similar manner to BA's.

But your right, it was worth a thought. Personally I'd like to sit both.

Regards

Graeme Scott
[email protected]