Smart Aquisition and the missing helis.

[Guzzle]

Smart aquisition, a marvellous thing I am told. I want to believe but choosing the lowest bidder (and choosing BAE for anything) can't be a smart thing to do. Cheap always means inadequate or (very) late or (way) over budget, However, my main thrust is this: where are the Wokka Mk3s we so cleverly purchased for x Sqn? And just what did DAAvn get so wrong to necessitate so many Apache Ds going straight into storage? Is anybody going to be held accountable for these fiascos or is the likely outcome going to be a cover up on the Wokkas and DAAvn raping Britmil for the extra funds he knew he would always need from the moment he 'proved' the AAC could afford Apache? I am quite sure that a NAO audit would consider these less than exemplary examples of being smart.:cool:

[Jackonicko]

The Wokka 3s are all over the shop. One was retained as GI airframe (because it wasn't practical to get it serviceable enough to give back) and one for trials at Boscombe. The remainder were given back to the US Army, having failed to gain a Military Aircraft Release.

The sight of Chinook 2s with huge Mk 3 style tanks may confuse some observers. The first time I saw one I swallowed my false teeth.

Delivered late, and reportedly already deteriorated after a long period in inadequate storage, there was reportedly little chance of the Mk 3s entering service except in the longer term, but by giving them back the RAF will get working aircraft to a later, higher standard in virtually the same REAL timeframe, and a small shed full of greenbacks..... allegedly!

[mutleyfour]

Jack, my jungle drums tell me a different tune.

ie; lets use the war as an ideal opportunity to reinvent our requirements for mk3 and start the ever rolling ball a-rolling again...

I could be wrong!

[Jackonicko]

I'm not saying you're wrong.

But apart from two aircraft, the Mk 3s were sitting unused and unuseable long before 'the War against Terror' (let alone the Iraqi op), and the Yanks asked for them back right at the start of the Afghan thing, or before.

And it's absolutely pukka that the thing was having huge problems in getting an MAR, I'm assured.

[mutleyfour]

Cant imagine the head shed of SF being too pleased with whatevers going on!

[Guzzle]

M4, I'm sure he isn't but the people who should be worried are those who agreed the aircraft specifications in the first place and who wrote the contract and signed it. Quite frankly it's appalling and in more honourable times resignations would have been forwarded. 8 aircraft incapable of doing anything?:suspect: I hope these clowns aren't still in the procurement game.
And as for the AAC and the Apaches, they won the battle to get them (and so many) on the basis that it was affordable, do-able and needed. It fact the AAC can't afford them; they can't get the training done; and why do we need 50-odd Longbows when the US Army uses 1 L'Bow with 4 A-models as a fighting unit. Not only that, these are supposed to replace tanks- yeah, right! How long can an Apache stay on station (and therefore hold ground)- 30mins? 1 hour? And what about a tank? Err, as long as it wants! And as we all saw in Gulf War2, the dear Apaches can get taken out by Farmer Giles :uhoh: Still, at least half of these awesome machines have been mothballed, so at least the suppliers will be chuffed. Heads should roll.

[Woff1965]

I recall reading that the MOD were unhappy with the Mk 3 due to problems with the FADEC and the US basically took them back and reconverted them to MH47E standard as the US special ops units had a shortage due to increased usage in Afghanistan and the "War on Terror".

One of the papers I read suggested that the MOD would then receive new Mk 3's later on. Hopefully when the avionics/engines had been sorted to MOD spec.

To be honest I don't know if this was just proposed and rejected or if it has/will happen.

[mutleyfour]

Guzzle,

There are very valid reasons to have the whole fleet at D spec. The FCR along with RFI make the aircraft much better equipped to carry out a lot of its seeking/targetting using passive means.

We cannot assume that just because there is a good FCR fitted that aircraft can just fly around the battle space chucking out large volumes of RF energy in order to cue other AH in the formation. It would be easy to eliminate the one threat (ie the lone oh58 or D model)and thus make the rest of the fleet blind electronically.

With regard to the storage at Shawbury, I dont know why, but I'm led to believe its due to the changeover of aircraft type as the first however many were not the full spec and they will be retro fitted at the end of the programme. this allowed the AAC to get there hands on a number of frames to get into gear with.

The tank replacement issue is alarming, Who said it was to replace the Tank?

And finally, the aircraft lost in GW2 were in my opinion (speculated on the rumours Ive heard) were down to poor planning and preperation for the one very well publicised mission. I understand that there were a number of other highly successful missions that followed after the hard lessons were learnt.

Its also worth noting that all the crews came home!

Hope this has gone some way to putting that side of your thread to bed.

[Guzzle]

Woff (Woff?!), trust me, the Yanks have not taken them back and currently they sit in serene repose in a dusty corner of a hangar in the home counties area. Make no mistake, the MOD is doing its utmost to sort the problem, but having got into this mess through poor budgeting and inappropriate team input, it is money that is the stumbling block. It's going to be a b****y expensive error to rectify- meanwhile we can all take a tax hike.
M4, I see where you are coming from but I don't buy into it fully. The AAC has virtually no EW experience on the battlefield, hence we surely based the initial conops of Apache on the lead nation- the USA. If so, why wasn't their conops employed? And why would all those Longbow radars reduce the RF sig? Surely the ES is just as lively with x number of radars working as with fewer radars but more secure, frequency-agile radios handing off target info in databursts? I think your argument (as mine was) is too simplistic, and you shouldn't believe everything you are told. The AAC, and DAAvn are still grappling with this beast- how to train on it, and fight with it, and this all after we've bought the ruddy thing!
Anyone else, especially you regimented aviators, got a view on this? :}