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keeders
8th May 2003, 19:00
Does anyone know any detail as regards the planned strike affecting France / French Airspace next week ?

Thanks,

Keeders

You splitter
8th May 2003, 22:25
Just received from AO Liason Cell at the CFMU.

quote
ATTN: AIRCRAFT OPERATORS CONCERNED WITH FRANCE

SUBJECT: PLANNED GENERAL STRIKE IN FRANCE 13 MAY 2003

There will be a civil service strike on Tuesday 13 MAY
that will include ATC, most probably between 04h00-20h00 UTC.
There is no official notam published yet as a last chance
meeting still has to take place before the end of this week.
As far as we know the strike will definitively take place.
This coming strike is expected to be similar to the previous
general French strike that took place last month on 03 April.
A minimum decree will be declared that will mean the standard
procedure of notification to your local offices in France of
flights that will be allowed to arrive and depart at French airports.
The overflights will be affected by a reduction in enroute capacity.
We suggest you to closely monitor the situation and to liaise
with your local handling agent for further information.
We also remind you the French Civil Aviation Administration web site
where usually you can see the minimum service flight list just before
the strike starts. http ://www.scta.aviation-civile.gouv.fr
We will advise you when the notam will be issued.

:rolleyes: :hmm:

Cheers
YS

Freeway
9th May 2003, 03:02
Tango routes for us all on Tue 13th me thinks!!

JJflyer
9th May 2003, 05:11
Anyone ever tried to count how many useless strikes french ATC has in a given year?

EMERALD1
9th May 2003, 15:23
Try living or earning a living here
ATC on a go-slow is just the tip of the iceberg

CentralFlow
11th May 2003, 20:33
For the minimum service list of approved flights these are published on www.dgac.fr
under Actualites-Greve le 13 Mai.
Compagnies francaises
Compagnies etrangeres
Note that this is a provisional/preliminary list.

Ludo
12th May 2003, 01:44
JJflyer
It's not an ATC strike it's a GENERAL strike and it's not useless since our retirement pensions are at stake.

JJflyer
12th May 2003, 05:37
Oh a GENERAL strike. That changes things. A high ranking strike like a GENERAL strike cannot in anyways be considered useless. I mean if it was a lieutenant strike or even worse a corporal strike now that would be a different thing.
I duly offer my apologises to the workers at the barricades defending the rights of the masses. And wouldnt it be great if all the other EU countries would pay for the GENERAL strike.
(Guarantee that they will try that one)

Furthermore I think it is a great idea to go on a GENERAL strike and stop all work alltogether. Yip lets fight for our pensions on the barricades rather than make money for the companies and governments that are supposed to pay for them... I have even a better idea ... Lets all just quit our jobs and teach those bastard a lesson. Surely unemployment is better... And hey all us unemployed can then join the highranking strike.


Cheers

JJ
:}

CapedCrewsAider
12th May 2003, 06:16
Ludo,

very logical, the taxpayer is not contributing enough to our pensions, lets disrupt private industry, screw the profitability of the people who pay us and they will be so grateful that they will pay even more tax to subsidise civil service pension funds.


Well thankyou very much, just what the struggling industries, and in particular aviation, of Europe needs right now.

No wonder the world loves the French so much. Selfless, self-sacrificing, moral, charitable folk that they are. Oh and isn't their pop music wonderful too.

Ludo
12th May 2003, 15:32
Yeah you're right, let's let the Gov cut on whatever they like and keep a low profile...:rolleyes:
No dear, we will fight for your pensions, and if you didn't have the guts to do it when it was the time, then accept the consequences. We at least will try with the right to strike our grandfathers won for us. And thanks for the solidarity, or is it jealousy?

qwertyuiop
12th May 2003, 18:11
Do we want to work our nuts off and retire on a very poor pension as seems to be the way in the uk? (unless you are a politician)

I wish the french luck in their attempt to uphold their future income and life style.

Land ASAP
12th May 2003, 18:41
"Oh and isn't their pop music wonderful too"

Actually, French music has come a long way whilst we push out the likes of 'Popstars' etc. Our 'Pop Music' is formulaic sh*t whereas the French culture ministry would not stomach its TV stations homogenising the music industry with a 'press the red button if you think Gareth is better looking' bollux.

I have to admire the beligerant gits sometimes (except when they're beligerant to me).

timzsta
12th May 2003, 20:17
Are the French authorities not bound by new legislation to compensate the airlines for the loss of revenue incured by the strikes? Isn't that the same legislation that the Brussells bearucrats, lead so admirably by the French, are using to ensure that those unscrupulous low cost airlines pay passengers compensation when flights have to be cancelled (for amongst other things, ATC strikes).

I am all for worker rights, I recently lost my job in a certain recent airline take over. But you French ATC's seem to go on strike every other month, a bit the tube drivers in London. And thats why we have no sumpathy for you, because every other month we have to deal with hourdes of screaming passengers, disruption to our schedules and rosters, because you lot are on strike again. You strike first, negotiate second, perhaps you should try it the other way round for once.

It his high time a few airlines fought back - ie decided not to pay the bill for their nav charges/landing fees until compensation has been payed.

Ludo
12th May 2003, 20:46
As I already said it is not an ATC strike, it is a GENERAL strike. And there is nothing to negotiate about. The Gov said it will change the pension rules but didn't ask our advice. So now we are giving it to them the only way possible.
Maybe timzsta if in your country there were more solidarity you wouldn't have lost your job during a takeover (sorry to hear that BTW).
But a strike has to be a nuisance, otherwise the Governments wouldn't try to avoid it by negotiating. Unfortunately the current French Gov decided to go on its way without giving a chance to the other parties. The idea behind it being to alienate the public sympathy from the strikers and maybe in the future try to limit the right to strike. Glad to see it is not working this far, and even the quietest Unions are calling their members.

Goforfun
12th May 2003, 20:49
57+ flights have been cancelled by easyJet on Tuesday.

The French live in the dark ages.........

Ozzy
12th May 2003, 22:50
Well, I'm having a good laugh at this thread, as Yogi Berra said "It's like deja vu all over again". To quote Ludo Unfortunately the current French Gov decided to go on its way without giving a chance to the other parties.
Sounds a bit like the approach Chirac adopted with respect to the UN Security Council. Only this time it aint being applauded by his fellow countrymen and women. Chortle, chortle, chortle.

Ozzy

timzsta
12th May 2003, 23:13
An excellent point Ozzy!!

My pension plans are to keep it all under my bed. That way no b&*ger is going to run off with it or change the T&C's a week before I retire.

norodnik
13th May 2003, 01:08
Actually Ludo, the UK pension system, as bad as it may be, is not in the red and people in this Country have been taught to make provision for their retirement.

The French and the Germans however have a bust Pension system that has to be reformed. You expect to work 35 hours, have loads of holiday and sick and still expect the state to keep you in clover.

But its useless complaining as the French never obey any of the EU rules anyway. Illegal grants, ignorance of cross border trade agreements, blockading of ports, illegal embargo on British Beef, etc etc. In a survey, the French broke more EU rules than any other country and then have the nerve to tell everyone else to tow the line.

We saw with the Iraq conflict what the French are made of (don't metnion illegal arm sales!!). Its no wonder their armed forces wear brown pants

bluskis
13th May 2003, 06:31
Is there any progress on the idea that the French ATC should control some of the S England airspace?

yggorf
13th May 2003, 06:40
Don't want to sound pedantic but it strikes me (wink wink nudge nudge) that the French speakers on this thread make less spelling mistakes than the English speakers...
Tells a lot about who is the more decadent, doesn't it?:p

unwiseowl
13th May 2003, 08:14
I suspect that many of you roast beefs criticising the frogs don't even know the details of what the French government is doing. I admire the frogs for standing up againt their government.

JJflyer
13th May 2003, 14:54
As a non native english speaker from a small nordic EU country I can assure you unwiseowl that I am informed what the French gov is trying to achieve. (one of the very few smart ideas they have probably ever had)

My feeling is that other EU contries and their tax payers will end up paying for the french jolly happy street madness... In addition to all the money they are getting in subsidies now.( France is one of the biggest takers of EU subsidies) More fun to take than give?

Me thinks it is about time to really rethink the whole EU concept and look if it is feasible to go down this road where French are trying to dominate and call the shots... I for one do not want to have any part in a French run EU... They try to run things same way they run things home... Boy will we have problems
I will be sure to raise this point with my MP... Strange how one goes from pro EU to Anti EU for actions of few nations and their elected leaders... ie citizens.

Happy strike day... Nice delays this morning out of STN:* Could not really call it an EASY experience.

Corrected for typos and form

fiftyfour
13th May 2003, 20:41
I had the impression that the strike must have started early. Yesterday late evening while over Bay of Biscay there were no met reports available from Brest or Nantes. The single ATC controller left on duty was operating quite a few frequencies at once, and he seemed pretty close to overload with the amount of R/T he had to handle. Presumably the 'night shift ' failed to turn up for work.

IFTB
14th May 2003, 00:21
Here we go again, another tread with opinions about France and its politics by people who watch Sky News and read The Sun to form their opinions and do not have a clue about the real details of the subject.
(Apologies to the likes of JJF)

On-On

bijave
14th May 2003, 00:59
I knew about some sort of Anglo-French rivalry, pr whatever you may call it...And knowing France extremely well, i've never come across such violent comments about the English as your comments about the French. They are far less nasty and biased as you guys are.

There are so many false statements in your comments I am overwhelmed.

Regarding France's behavior in the latest events, at least they didn't have to obey their good old master Uncle Sammy when told to go and have a sleep in the dog's house. WARD WARF ! Lay down ! WARF! Roll over ! WARF ! That's for the good of the planet because they're threatening everybody with their weapons of mass destruction ! WARF (Ouppss, finally, we have found none. God, have we been lied to ?)

If France si such a bad country full of bad people, why do so many Brits fly and live there ? There must some other place, nice enough not to have to bear those bas..ds ?..?

Back to aviation, sure, the French (especially civil servants) strike often. But they're not letting themselves shafted by authority as some of you at EZ for instance have just been. At least, they criticize, think and act, as opposed to others who can only afford usual blablas...

norodnik
14th May 2003, 00:59
IFTB, please enlighten us as to what the real details really are

and Bijave, did you live in the UK during the 70's ??

We got all this stuff out of our system 30 years ago when we finally realised that you cannot go on claiming ever increasing pay and benefits with no return. Where will the French Govt get the money from ???

Reality dawns eventually, and when it does, it won't be pretty.

bijave
14th May 2003, 01:08
And, JJFlyer, you don't realise how stupid your comments are.

France is one of the biggest takers of subsidies but is also one of the biggest givers (in fact, the 2nd biggest behind Germany) while England is a long, long way behind.

France does not absorb so much compared with countries such as Spain, Portugal or Greece and Irland back in time (yes !) in proportion with what they're giving away.

Please, try to know prior to talking, not the other way round. You will gain a lot in terms of credibility. Thank you.

norodnik, I'm not saying the French are right. What I'm saying is they have the guts to stand up against their government, unlike others... and that there's no need to be so violent in your comments. Who do the Brits think they are to decide whether the French are right or not to act against their government ? You don't even know what the whole story is about.

norodnik
14th May 2003, 01:48
Bijave, I'll make this the last post as we are somewhat off topic.

The UK is second behind Germany in what it gives to the EU.

Spain et al are less developed and so get higher returns, that is the point of the EU, to get everyone up to a similar standard.

In a democracy, of course demonstrations are allowed. As we found in the UK (and still do to some extent), they are sometimes the only way. However, and I do know, the French state is facing a financial crisis (as is Germany with Pensions) and one way or another, reforms will happen.

As you live in Germany, how come you know so much ? and us "Brits" do not ??? You assume too much

Wanula Dreaming
14th May 2003, 01:54
IFTB & bijave,

Let´s be honnest here. The France provides very little service, flexibility or quality for their services/work they ´offer.´ French ATC is a JOKE !! We all know it and we all laugh and complain about it. "I ehhh....., call ehhhh..... yu ehhhh,..... back....ehhhhh...." I recently talked to a colleague who had a real emergency over France and got ABSOLUTELY NO help from ATC. As a matter of fact, the subsequent confusion only added to their workload.

France is in a very simular situation as Germany is in today. In both countries totally outdated labour and pension laws, as well as a huge bureaucracy, have had the respective economies in a firm chokehold for decades while the rest of the world made money during the 1990´s economic boom.

Admiring the people for standing up against their governments ? Standing up against what exactly ? Against highly needed labour reforms so that more people can find work ? Standing up against highly needed social wellfare reforms so that the system will become affordable and foreign companies will invest in France and Germany ? Standing up against these measures and ´passing the buck´ to the next generation ?

National pride, arrogance, wishfull thinking and a deeply rooted fear of change/conservatism are the prime causes why these 2 countries can not hack it in the real world.

LTN man
14th May 2003, 02:17
This is just another example of the French disease. We sit on our Island looking across the channel at a nation in crisis. What is it about the French that they strike at the drop of a hat and cause travel chaos for us Brits. Thinking back over the last year or two we have had the dockers, ferrymen, Eurostar train drivers, ATC, ground staff and truckers on strike. Oh and lets not forget the fishermen barricading the ports and farmers blocking the roads.

It just gives the impression that if a Frenchman did a full days work it would kill him.

JW411
14th May 2003, 04:31
bijave:

In your postings you lead us to believe that standing up to authority is a hugely laudable aim and that we Brits simply don't know how to do it.

How come then that you and your countrymen ended up with that lovely creature Mr.H leading you?

You lot thought he was just the bee's knees and it took the Brits (in the beginning) and the Americans (two years later), not forgeting our other friends, to stop him from annihilating everyone in the world who disagreed with him.

Compared to him, Sadam Hussein was a Boy Scout! It should not be necessary but can I suggest that you go and read your history books before talking about the Brits and democracy.

Shanwick Shanwick
14th May 2003, 15:10
You have to admire the way the French won't just roll over and take whatever comes their way. Unlike the British who get shaffted at each and every turn by anyone who feels like doing the shaffting.

While we're on the subject, how much effect do you think this veto of French goods in the US is going to have on the French?
Absolutely B*gger all! The sun shines, the food's good, the wine's cheap and no-one gives a stuff about the US. (Not a personal view you understand.)

By the way, the latest series of "Popstars" just finished in France a few weeks ago with equally tallentless contestants.

bijave
14th May 2003, 18:23
JW411, your post is sickening and shows the level in general.

I'm off. No point discussing.

JJflyer
14th May 2003, 18:43
Bijave... French by any chance ???

As you casted a doubt in my mind that I might be wrong I had a look at the numbers on EU website... And I am sorry but you are quite Incorrect in your statement.

If anyone is interested on how much France takes in as farm subsidies have a look.

www.cer.org.uk/pdf/cerwp1.pdf

Cheers

JJ

bijave
14th May 2003, 21:42
By the way, I'm afraid YOU are wrong, UK's contribution to the EU budget is only 4th in 2003...

2003 budget contributions :

- Germany : 23%
- France : 17,5 %
- Italy : 13,5%
- UK : 13 %

For nearly the same number of inhabitants, that's lesser a burden per capita in favor of UK...Thank you very much.

kieran
15th May 2003, 01:59
Going back to where this topic began; the implications of the French general strike on Europe-wide air travel has highlighted the need for the 'single-sky' policy currentley being proposed by the EU. This is only one area the the policy would help impove the currenty convuluted airways over Europe. I know the UK will probably object, just for the sake of objecting, but the rest of us know its the best way forward.

rustle
15th May 2003, 02:07
Hey, kieran, welcome to PPRuNe :)

...the implications of the French general strike on Europe-wide air travel has highlighted the need for the 'single-sky' policy currentley being proposed by the EU.

You wanna explain how that works then :confused:

HTF does a(nother) strike by the french highlight anything of the kind?

Is it because under single-sky when the french are on strike the rest of Europe and UK could control their traffic for them?

Or do you feel some sort of misguided solidarity with the french public servants, and under single-sky it'd be one out - all out?

kieran
15th May 2003, 02:24
I'm not too sure of the actual details of why the French went on strike, most probably the usual; overworked and underpaid.

The single european sky policy is not as simple as it looks. One advantage to having such a policy will allow air traffic controllers trained in any EU country to work in another. This will enable staff shortages to be addressed.

Your theory on one-out all out is unviable, if you stop to consider the implications such action would have on safety and general europe wide travel. You might as well go shoot yourself in the foot rather then take this kind of action

rustle
15th May 2003, 03:01
The single european sky policy is not as simple as it looks.

Is it not? Please, tell me more.

One advantage to having such a policy will allow air traffic controllers trained in any EU country to work in another. This will enable staff shortages to be addressed

Rather an idealistic view don't you think - or have you some reference sites demonstrating this level of co-operation within the (current) EU?

Your theory on one-out all out is unviable...

Not my theory ;)

JJflyer
15th May 2003, 03:31
Yip... well France takes a 5th that is 20% of all the farm subisidies so they take more than they give... I hate it when I am right.

As far as per capita payments are. We will pay 1 billion to EU in 2003. From a population of less than 5.5 million... well do the math.

kieran
16th May 2003, 01:09
rusle,

The single european sky policy is outlined in here:

http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/transport/air/single_sky/index_en.htm

If you have a look at the proposals here, you will see that it is not as simple as it looks.

There are plenty of examples which demonstrate the level of co-operation which you call "idealistic". Take university students. Students who are citizens of the EU are entitled to study in any university of the member states, provided they meet the entrance requriements, obviously. The EU brought us the Joint Aviation Authorities and now once trained to these standards, you are entitled to work in any EU country.

If the theory on one-out, all out is not yours, whose it then?

salzkorn
17th May 2003, 04:07
I would just like to say that... all those bloody Brits spitting at the face of French people make me puke !!!

French ATC is a joke ??? well... YOU are a joke !!

excuse me for being rude, but it really gets on my nerves, and when I read this, I lose my temper !!

Who has the most important delays ?? WHO ??? I'm asking YOU !!

So please, stop giving us lessons, look at you dirty face in the bathroom mirror before going to work in your Mini...

As is written above, French people are far less violent in their words about British people than the British about the French...

So please, stop looking at your belly button. I think that driving on the left side of the road, drinking tea and eating green jelly detroys your brains, guys...

And before saying we are not able to speak English... try to learn French first, and then we'll discuss...

Many thanks to the German guy trying to have positive words about French people...

cheers

Ozzy
17th May 2003, 04:22
I hope your strike went really, really well salzkorn. Did the Germans come out in sympathy too?:rolleyes:

Ozzy

salzkorn
17th May 2003, 04:28
I didn't go on strike... I was working in a simulator

and for personnaly knowing German people, I have the impression that they are far more open-minded than British people...

bijave
18th May 2003, 03:47
JJFlyer said :" Yip... well France takes a 5th that is 20% of all the farm subisidies so they take more than they give... I hate it when I am right.

As far as per capita payments are. We will pay 1 billion to EU in 2003. From a population of less than 5.5 million... well do the math."

JJFlyer, do you think farm subsidies are everything in the bloody Europe ? Do you think they're the only type of expenses ? How much money does your country absorb for its own types of needs ?

Hey, prof, what do you know about EU's budget ? Where's your PHD ?

"I hate it when I am right." Are you really that kind of person ? Are you really that kind of (so you think) of "smart-ass" who believes he's it ! ??? Do you keep the prints in your face from knuckles from your First Officers or your captains for being so boastful ? Or do you simply keep your mouth usually shut and suddenly discharge all that long accumulated hatred about the French on this forum ?

"I hate it when I am right." Do you say that to everybody you're arguing with ? Gosh, I don't want to be in anybody's presence who could ressemble you.

Grandpa
18th May 2003, 06:30
Reform!

Which kind of reform?

Work longer, pay more taxes, get less when you retire?

At the same period that you see unemployment growing, working conditions lower and profits increase for financial community all around the world.

All that is not a french problem, it is world wide.

The strike's only goal in France is to prevent the salarymen to be the victims of the "reform".

If it succeeds, the money needed to balance retirement funds will come also from the boss pockets.

Unions are defending the interests of the workers, French AND Europeans.

JJflyer
19th May 2003, 04:48
Auch... pretty rough language. Think I hit a nerve there.


On another note:
My experiences with French ATC have been very good and I have never had problems in that regard. So I would not really call them useless. Strikes are a totally separate issue, well in my books.

Salzkorn. The German guy is actually French.

Grüssi aus Spanien und am morgen abend aus Lappland.

JJ

IFTB
19th May 2003, 16:24
I agree with Salzkorn about his opinion of German people being far more open than the British and about the irritation about French bashing. During the (and not yet finished) firemens strike I did not see any French PPRuNers having a go at the Brits in the way it is going on in this tread.
Having a go for a joke is one thing and should not be objected against by anyone. This here is going a bit too far.
Every country has its own problems rooted far deeper than outsiders (often) know. To start this sort of rant agains a nation is typical British IMHO.
I suggest that those who are in a more stable mind than the rant posters in this tread leave this subject alone and let the rest get on and roll in their mud.

Before you ask, I am Dutch, live in France and have lived in the UK for many years. In addition I have worked together with Germans for over 10 years.

IFTB