So it was Kemble

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

...I mean the airport that TOT was at when he had that run-in with the farmer-in-the-hat which spawned that...er, "spirited" discussion in another thread.

I should have known. It sounded familiar. Lovely country over there. Nice airport. I once flew a 206B there (Warren Aviation?), G-Bravo Papa-something. And I flew gliders at the nearby Cotswold Gliding Club. I look forward to going back.

But what a noise-sensitive area! Runway 31 is not even supposed to be used except by request. I always took that to mean that the pilot had to request it; curious that the tower assigned it to you. If I recall, A-429 runs right along the airport boundary. And there are buildings on the southeast side of the road just to the right of the final, a farm just under the extended centerline, and some big buildings on the airport property just to the left (south) of the runway. Not a great situation.

But the threshold for runway 31 is displaced about 175 metres, ensuring that arriving aircraft will have some altitude as they cross the road. So the question becomes: Where were you shooting your approach for, TOT? The start of the pavement or the displaced threshold? If the latter, then you were still probably about 200 metres (600 feet) out on finals when you saw that irate farmer.

200 metres and 75 feet. Let's say 70 feet since you probably weren't going to actually touch down on the runway but come to a hover, eh? My calculations put you at a 6 degree approach angle. Double a plank's slide, but still awfully shallow for a heli.

I humbly submit that, given the extreme noise-sensitive nature of the area, you might have held a trifle more altitude as you approached the field. Even holding 100' until you crossed the road would've only required a descent angle of about 11 degrees. Well within the capabilities of your 269A, I'm sure. Even shooting slightly beyond the numbers would've worked too.

Oh, if it wasn't Kemble then I take it all back.

But it was, wasn't it?

Okay PF#1, that wasn't bad. We'll give you ONE more chance. But you're on probation. You better brush up on your butt-kissing skills. Old Man Rotor and TC may never speak to you again! And please don't upset GLSNightPilot. You know how cranky he gets right after he wakes up when he's working.

[ppheli]

Kemble is well known for complaints - they average 10 each weekend apparently. So some clever-clogs decided to put the PFA rally there for the next five years. Wonder how many complaints they can rack up in four July days??

[John Eacott]

P#1,

First sign of madness, talking to yourself
Second sign of madness, PPruning answers to yourself

Haven't chuckled so much for ages, winding up those poor blighters on the other thread. Do you pull the wings off flies for amusement, too?


:D :D :D :cool:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

John Eacott:Do you pull the wings off flies for amusement, too?No, John. The fly doesn't know any better. It just *is*. Helicopter pilots on the other hand...

[Thomas coupling]

Nice one Danny...now you'll have to re-invent yourself and wait for another ambush...............................
Let's see if it is spotted earlier this time:p

[Old Man Rotor]

Can't really come to grips with the motivation of the sand pit owner.............

Perhaps he just did'nt measure up and had to go play with gadgets that did'nt have rotors..............

And Heliplot was Compliant to his detremeant............

Then again....their both whinging POMS.

And for the fence sitters that have now crawled out and waving the flag.......wonderful!!!....what a jolly good show, hey what.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Old Man Rotor:Can't really come to grips with the motivation of the sand pit owner.............

Perhaps he just did'nt measure up and had to go play with gadgets that did'nt have rotors..............

And Heliplot was Compliant to his detremeant............

Then again....their both whinging POMS.

And for the fence sitters that have now crawled out and waving the flag.......wonderful!!!....what a jolly good show, hey what.Excuse me, but does anybody understand a word of that? I would say that OMR isn't making any sense, but that would be redundant. Maybe the phrase is "making less sense than usual." I do detect some anger or indignation there, but it's really incoherent. (What pray tell is "whinging"?) OMR, get some therapy, dude.

Thomas coupling:Nice one Danny...now you'll have to re-invent yourself and wait for another ambush...............................
Let's see if it is spotted earlier this timeStill wrong. Here's the deal- Sorry to disappoint some of you but I am not Danny, nor am I Heliport or any of the other PPRuNe moderators. I am a 50-something helicopter pilot living in the U.S. for now. I have very little tolerance for self-righteous pilots with over-inflated egos who think they know everything.

All of my comments were dead-serious with one exception. The text in blue was *not* added by the Mods. It was me poking a little fun at myself by making it look like I was p*ssing them off. Fortunately, the moderators have a wonderful sense of humour (unlike many of you lot).

Dammit PF#1, now you've let the cat out of the bag. -Ed.

See? Easy! Most of you are on such high alert for "wind-up merchants" that it's easy to set you off.

What happened was that my message got overshadowed by my "attitude." Many other pilots said basically the same things I did (I will not bother to reprint the quotes) without any derogatory or contrary comments from the peanut gallery. What was funny was reading Crab's diatribe against approaches that infringe on the shaded area of the H-V in TOT's "Missile Thrown at Helicopter" thread while admitting that it's not all that bad in another thread! I believe my kids' reaction to that would be "WTF??" It was at that point that I realized that if PF#1 said the sky was blue, somebody (OMR, TC or Crab, most likely) would say otherwise just on principle. Bl**dy losers, if you ask me. But you didn't, so strike that remark.

I make no claim about being a Test Pilot or anything else. All I've ever been is a line pilot who's been around the block a time or two and who still gets his jollies when his hands are on the controls. There are legions like me all over the world. For the most part, we go about our jobs quietly, letting the loudmouths make fools of themselves. But sometimes we just have to speak up. And deep down in your hearts, whether you want to admit it or not, you know I'm right about TOT: he was TOO DAMN SHALLOW.

And let's be clear. TOT tacked up his little post and then virtually disappeared. Even Heliport tried to get him to elaborate to no avail. I guess TOT didn't want to answer any questions or provide any further details because he realized that his position was tenuous. We pilots tend to think that it could never be us who made the mistake. "*ME??* Screw up? No way! I have 5000+ hours!! I have 120 years of experience!!! You don't know what you're talking about!"

People ask questions of me. I answer them as completely as I can. If you review the "Missile" thread (seven pages!!) you'll see that to be true. But when others make claims that seem outrageous, I posed some legitimate questions of my own and they got ignored. For example, this cranky "GLSNightPilot" who claims to have over twenty years experience flying offshore but doesn't believe that any single-engine helicopter can haul six passengers offshore because he somehow hasn't heard of the Bell 206L-4 or 407.

There is this pervasive "I've never done it that way so it must be wrong," or "I've never heard of that so it must be wrong," attitude in this industry. It's laughable. Some of you people get wound up pretty tightly!

Now enough of this mess. You all can stand around, clapping each other on the back, telling each other how wonderful you all are, and how you ran off that nutjob PF#1 (nee FlareDammit) and what a w*nker he was and how he didn't know anything about flying, that lousy, stinking POM wind-up merchant.

Yeah. Have fun, lads. I've got real work to do.

[Red Wine]

Did you crap the bed again...??....its early in the US.....

Looking for breaky, a teet to suck on you wooss........

Get a life and a job...........real men go and work in the morning..................wimps and blowhards ...and I forgot the unemployable...what a joke.

Even Uncle Sam can't seem to use you now................even for cannon fodder.........must have been all those prof checks you screwed up.......use by dates are such a limitation for losers.....but you old joker are used to that.....how wonderful to really know your a clucks with a chip.....what a loser.

Get real dork.....down to the welfare office.....claim your welfare and back to the cybercafe.

I am going to have a beer, which I can pay for.....enjoy your forced retirement......old Wrinkly Prune.....

[MightyGem]

He does go on doesn't he...and on, and on, and on........:8

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Red Whine and Mighty Chump- if you have nothing substantive to contribute to the thread, please stay off the channel. You're more than welcome to respond in context, but your "nyah, nyah, nyah" attitudes betray your lack of maturity. Any thoughts on the actual subject of the thread? I thought not. At least my posts stay on-topic.

I go "on and on and on" because I have an attention span longer than that of a teenager, I can hold a conversation (in more than one language) for more than a minute, and I can focus on more than one thing at a time. I put thought into things, and don't like "sound-bite" responses.

More than can be said for some of you. Much more.

[Old Man Rotor]

Not a problem.........If you care to ask intelligent thought provoking questions or make uselful accurate statements, then we will do our best to get you what you need.

Just seems your just a little lacking in Intellectual thoughts....thats all.


Going to lay in the sun with a beer now....skin cancer is curable......your not.

[Heliport]

http://www.3cats.com/helicopter/Cat28.gif

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

OMR:If you care to ask intelligent thought provoking questions or make uselful accurate statements, then we will do our best to get you what you need.In the first place, you're not the forum moderator, nor teacher, nor hall monitor even, nor do you hold any other position of authority here (or anywhere else that I can determine). You don't have to "get" me anything. I'm not your student. This is not some Greek forum where highly-revered elders sit around dispensing their wisdom to the young. And if any of you think it is, you're mistaken. Check your egos at the door, boys. None of you is Plato.

Narcissus, maybe...

In the second place, I *did* ask some "thought provoking" questions which people chose to ignore. Everybody simply assumed that TOT was already making a steep, "fly neighborly" approach to the runway when that farmer joyfully tossed his hat in the air. ...Everybody but me, that is. I wondered just how far out TOT really was on finals, which would have a direct effect on how steep or shallow his approach was. Everybody just assumed that TOT's assertion of "100 metres to run" was accurate. ...Everybody but me.

Heliport eventually asked TOT to provide more information, but the request was spurned.

So I started digging in my memory for airports in the U.K. that I've been to with a runway configuration similar to that described by TOT. The only one that really came to mind was the old RAF base at Kemble.

I recalled that Kemble is a very noise-sensitive area. So I did a little homework. Runway 31 is not an active nor preferred runway; it can only be used by request due to that very noise-sensitivity. Runway 31 is 1000 metres long, and the LDA (landing distance available) is 823 metres. This means that the "threshold" is 177m from the beginning of the pavement. Extending "outbound" (to the southeast) from the runway is a grassy area, and then a road, and then the chicken farm that TOT referred to.

If TOT was at Kemble, and if his position report was accurate (verified by the gesturing farmer below him), and if he was at 75 feet, then he really had about 200 metres to go to the threshold. 200 metres = 600 feet. Using our table of tangents, this equates to an approach angle of just 6 degrees.

While it is true that TOT was approaching at an angle steeper than that of a "standard" ILS approach, runway 31 at Kemble is not so equipped. In fact, at 1000 metres in length not many large aircraft will be using it. Small airplanes do not make much noise on final. Helicopters, as I've noted before, make as much noise on final as they do on departure- maybe more if you include the added blade slap associated with approach.

Just because we are making our landing to a runway does not require that we make shallow, airplane-like approaches. In fact, it may be very inadvisable to do so. I cannot believe that TOT was unaware of how noise-sensitive the area around Kemble is. Nor do I think that this was TOT's first visit to the airport. But even if it was, he should have familiarized himself with the area beforehand.

I believe TOT could have stayed higher and come in steeper. This would not have put his little 269A at perilous risk, and would possibly have avoided the farmer's wrath. Gee, I think I've been saying that from the beginning.

[Thomas coupling]

Pprune N0#1 fan:

Sarcasm aside:

Calm down, for just a little while in your very experienced life...

It's not what you are saying, it's the condescending way you say it. You make out that you are above everyone. You don't know anything about the people behind these 'handles'.
I would hazard a guess that several are better people than you. They have seen more done more experienced more But you have chosen to ignore this and have deliberated over this thread [and unfortunately most other threads where Pprune/Flare dammit, is involved], as if you were God's gift to helicopter flying.

You might be a very solid, professional pilot when it comes to 'hands on', but your "bedside manner" leaves us no choice but to ostracise you....now and forever, I'm afraid.

It must be very cold out there for you...

I hope you'll look to yourself while you still can, in retirement, and try to understand where this bitter twisted outlook first took hold. It is the first step to addressing your shortcomings and repairing your damaged personality.

If you do choose to change your handle again...make it a fresh start, let bygones be bygones.


Good luck in your retirement.

[whoateallthepies]

#1
I must say how much I have enjoyed your rambling rants on this and other threads. Please keep them coming. Now you can add me to your targets of vitriol as I would like to point out something you have said:-

"I have very little tolerance for self-righteous pilots with over-inflated egos who think they know everything"

In which case, how do you live with yourself?

Looking forward to your Yah Boo Sucks response with enthusiasm!

[Ascend Charlie]

And what will Flare/Fan call himself / herself when the next appearance is made? Pear Flan? Prune Jammit?
The Modulators should provide a prize for the first spotting, or run a competition for the best new name.

A limit of four words, so names like "Got-My-Head-So-Far-Up-My-@ss-That_Getting-A-Chewing-Out-Has-A-Whole-New-Meaning" would not be eligible.:D

[rotordk]

Well, he inspired me to start posting my ateistisk views on several religious forums !
Thanks PPF#1

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

You jokers must be under some incredible misconception that I am "going underground" only to resurface soon under a diff handle. Maybe you're under the mistaken impression that I've been banned or some such nonsense. Or that maybe I'll be so shamed about being ostracized by the resident egomaniacs that I'll tuck my tail between my legs and run from this forum like a scared puppydog.

Do the initials "KMA*" mean anything to you?

(*Kiss My Arse)

whoateallthepies wondered:I must say how much I have enjoyed your rambling rants on this and other threads. Please keep them coming. Now you can add me to your targets of vitriol as I would like to point out something you have said:-

"I have very little tolerance for self-righteous pilots with over-inflated egos who think they know everything"

In which case, how do you live with yourself?

Looking forward to your Yah Boo Sucks response with enthusiasm!

Hey Who, I don't mind a personal jab like that. You're welcome to your opinion and viewpoint. I have no beef with you however, because what you did *not* do was spout off some inaccurate, misleading or inane information on How To Fly a Helicopter, like some of these other w*nkers do.

Maybe I'm not the most "politically correct" poster here. But for the record, I don't have an overinflated ego, nor do I think I know everything. Thirty years in this business and I'm still learning! I do sometimes get self-righteous, because I am opinionated. But see, here's the key- I recognize this character trait in myself, and I guard against it and the others.

How do I live with myself? By looking myself in the mirror every morning and objectively asking myself if I'm really trying to do the right thing at all times. And praying for that ability at night.

Some might argue that I'm the most egotistical know-it-all to ever post on PPRuNe. And that would probably be those who would take a statement of mine like "I prefer steep approaches" and interpret it to mean that I do nothing but vertical descents every landing, every time, everywhere.

Imbeciles!

One of my more vocal critics (both in front of and behind the scenes), Old Man Rotor actually promised (threatened?) to follow me around, adding a disclaimer to all of my posts, warning unsuspecting and impressionable R-22 pilots not to listen to me because I post dangerous techniques (what a screaming ****). He even emailed the Moderators and formally requested that they ban me (what a baby). Then I just read in another (related) thread that OMR admitted that he hasn't flown single-engine helos in a long time. Moreover, he implied that he doesn't have much SE experience at all! Imagine that! (I could have told you that even without his little bit of self-disclosure.) I submit that perhaps the R-22 pilots shouldn't be listening to OMR! Maybe I should supply such a warning to all of *his* posts!

whoateallthepies, I appreciate that you enjoy my rantings...for whatever reason. If they make you think a little about various techniques and the different situations you might apply them in, that's all I could hope for.

Let's not forget who started this argy-bargy: TOT. He came on here and posted a whiny, sanctimonious complaint about a farmer throwing a "missile" (hat) at him while he was buzzing a chicken farm at 75 feet. He made a special point of mentioning that both he and his stick-buddy were "5000+" pilots (although that fact was irrelevant and gratuitous). I guess he was to cement in our minds that it couldn't possibly have been anything to do with his obviously perfect performance as a pilot. Further, I guess he expected 100% support and commiseration.

But digging a little deeper into it, we find some troubling questions arise...questions that TOT has been unwilling to answer for some reason, even when prodded by the Moderator. So let's ask again! Hey TOT, WAS IT KEMBLE OR WASN'T IT?? Enquiring minds want to know!

I don't take anything at face value. Neither should you, Who.

[tacks]

Sorry, I missed the beginning of this *missile-battle*- Kemble, is this the name of the farmer-bloke? :ouch:

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

tacks asked:Sorry, I missed the beginning of this *missile-battle*- Kemble, is this the name of the farmer-bloke?Our story so far: A poster named TOT was landing his Hu-269A to the threshold of a runway (31) at an unspecified airport before being cleared to cross the active runway (27). He claims that he was 100 metres out on finals at 75 feet as he passed over a chicken farm with some structures on it. As he did, a farmer came out of one of the structures and tossed his hat at the helicopter. TOT solicited feedback.

Some of us believed that based on TOT's own description of the event, he was simply too low and should have flown a steeper approach. Others assumed that TOT was "steep enough" and it was the stupid farmer who was irrationally p*ssed that a helicopter was buzzing his farm.

Obviously, it's hard to comment on a situation with such scant information. We all wanted more; the moderator (Heliport) even asked for more. TOT, for whatever reason, did not provide it.

I didn't recall too many airports in the U.K. with such a runway configuration. One that I knew of was the old RAF base at Kemble (although runway 27 is now runway 28). It seems plausible and likely to me that the incident TOT referred to occured at Kemble. I have on this forum repeatedly asked TOT to confirm or deny it.

So far there has been only silence from him. Maybe we'll never know.

[Blue Rotor Ronin]

Does the P in Pprune number two fan stand for petulance or poo?
Hell's teeth you go on, like a runaway soppy camel with it's d**k on fire, with only a paddlin' pool to ditch in. Try to throw your toys out of the cot as opposed to the whole cot out of the window. :E

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Blue Rotor Ronin carped:Does the P in Pprune number two fan stand for petulance or poo?
Hell's teeth you go on, like a runaway soppy camel with it's d**k on fire, with only a paddlin' pool to ditch in. Try to throw your toys out of the cot as opposed to the whole cot out of the window.If you don't know what PPRuNe stands for, please click on the homepage or email a request to one of the moderators.

As far as I know, nobody is forcing you to click on this thread. If you don't want to read my posts, I've got a simple suggestion: DON'T!

Hang on, I've got another suggestion: Shut the **** up.

[Thomas coupling]

Pprunee, word of advice, try not to bite.......:)

[rotordk]

PPF# wrote :
We're not a highly educated mob. Get over it.

I agree :-)

Just for the record, here is the link
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70305

[Thomas coupling]

You what????:confused:

[rotordk]

Surely must be a sign of true enlightment and insight on his own behalf !!

Sooo.....I agree with his statement !

;-)

[James Roc]

Tell me I'm crazy but I think consideration for the people living in and around airports/airfields has got to be top priority period. My instructor tells me that I take this to extreme but in an attempt to keep the noise to a minimum on the approach I will endeavour to gentle swing the arse of my R44 in the opposite direction of the houses/farmyard that are in the vicinity of the landing area so as the noisy exhaust is at no time pointing in their direction.Even if this means ending up still moving in ground effect facing the opposite direction, i.e. in reverse, well to me it's worth it! A near miss with a Cessna back-taxiing up the runway one day hasn't hindered my resolve as I think the noise abatement benefits speak for themselves.I'm considering super gluing a mirror to the left side of my chopper so as to aid the lack of visibility upon approaching the landing area...

Views welcome...

James

[rwm]

James Roc, as was stated in the other thread about flying backwards, you are not crazy, just stupid, and you should never fly helicopters where there are other people around. I can't believe your instructor hasn't quit.

When Darwin catches up with you, I hope I'm not around.