V- Bombers.

[Noah Zark.]

Years ago, when Vulcans were still in front line service, in the high altitude nuclear strike role, finished in anti-flash white, I recall seeing them flying overhead at what seamt to be a great altitude. The wonderful sight of the white triangle, contrailing all over the place.
All that was ever released about their service ceiling was "50,000+ft."
Can any ex-Vulcan crews tell us what height they really flew at?
And the same of Victors?

[BEagle]

The highest I ever saw in a Vulcan was 52000 ft during fighter affiliation with a pair of F4s (who lost!). But you had to be fairly light to get that high; with a 'bucket of sun' and 98%+16K fuel you'd probably expect 43000-45000 to start with.

The altitude was limited by crew oxygen regulators; the Mk 17 wuouldn't provide sufficient overpressure in the event of explosive decompression above 45000 ft whereas the Mk 21 would. However, to take advantage of the 50mm Hg overpressure available from the Mk 21, you needed to wear both a pressure jerkin and g suit - not much fun for everyday training but used occasionally in the Vulcan SR2 (later termed the B2(MRR)) for certain mission requirements. Without the PJ, you would go pop at 50mm Hg, so the maximum level wasn't as high with the Mk 21 sans PJ than it was with the Mk 17 regulator.

So really the captian shouldn't have taken us up to 52000 - we'd have probably gone hypoxic if the Vulcan had decompressed. But they never did - and besides, we beat the F4s quite comfortably. They couldn't get a decent snap up Sparrow shot due to our manoeuvrability and with only the AIM 9 G hadn't a hope of getting a 'winder shot off either; if they had, then the IRDs would probably have seduced it in any case!

[Dan Winterland]

The Victor in tanker service was limited to 49,000' due to the oxygen regulators fitted. I flew it up to that alt several times without a problem. Also the tanker had underwing stores, a slightly shorter wingpsan (117') and the ailerons were uprigged a few degrees which reduced lift.

The bomber had no oxy restrictions as it was fitted with a pressure breathing system which enabled the use of 'pressure jerkins' - a cut off pressure suit which then allowed the aircraft above 50,000' according to the RAF regulations. It also had a 120' wingspan, no refuelling pods and on a strike mission profile, the underwing tanks would have been jettisoned when empty. I gather it could reach 63,000' during the strike profile.

There was also a lighter strategic reconnaissance version which was lighter and had a 123' wingspan which could allegedly reach 67,000'.

[moggie]

BEagle - I see that Airbus/UK MoD are supposed to be looking at producing a bomber version of one of their products.

Any thoughts that dusting off the Vulcan jigs (I know - they were probably destroyed), bunging in new engines, new avionics and fitting bang seats for the rear crew might be more effective?

Imagine what that piece of kit could do!!

[oxford blue]

I've been up to FL560 in a Vulcan about 3 hours into the trip (We did have pressure jerkins and G-pants on). There was still a positive rate of climb but it was slow. However, I had no doubt that the aircraft would have gone higher if we'd been prepared just to sit there and wait for it to happen.

The Mk2s with 300 engines were supposed to go up to 60,000 feet. I never knew anyone who took one that high, but I'm sure that, with sufficient patience, it would have got there.

BEagle is right. Fighters had no chance in high level fighter affiliation. He's talking F4s. Imagine what is was like seeing off F104s with their little wings. Once, we had 4 F104s against us simultaneously for half an hour, ie, 4 v 1. At the end of it, for once, they were honest enough to send us a combat report in which they admitted that not one of them had been able to get a single firing solution in 30 minutes of continuous effort.

[tony draper]

Ah! but things would have been different if yer had Mr Wholigan on your tail.
;)

[FEBA]

For all you vulcanologists out there. I took the boys to Newark air museum last bank holiday. In pride of place at the front of the musem is Vulcan XM594. You can have a shufty inside for 50p, why did they make the flight deck smaller than a mini?? Anyway if you want to check your logs books and have flown this beast, get in touch with the museum. It's XM594 40th birthday this summer and they're having a bit of a do. Cheers
Feba

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I used to do a lot of motor race marshalling and we had our fire training days at RAe Farnborough. The training took place on the far side of the runway in the ‘fire ground’. They set cars up for us to practice on, but there were always aircraft waiting to be burnt for the benefit of the airport fire services. One year there was a Vulcan in the queue and, during the lunch break, I managed to sneak aboard for a peek and was amazed how small and cramped the crew accommodation was. There were also loads of shreds of 8mm film on the bonfire which seemed to show the early trials of the Vulcan. All long gone now – some people have no souls :mad:

My son has got a bang seat from a Victor in his militaria collection and (when he’s not looking!) I sometimes sit in it and wonder what it was like to fly these great aircraft. Those of you who have been there and done it are very lucky people.

[BOAC]

At the end of it, for once, they were honest enough to send us a combat report in which they admitted that not one of them had been able to get a single firing solution in 30 minutes of continuous effort.

Seconded - the Lightning faired as badly. One blink and the damn thing was head on to you again! - mind you 30 minutes of continuous effort

Dream on!

[newswatcher]

What a pity they didn't proceed with the addition of a rocket motor for additional altitude, as discussed during the 50s.:{

A similar exercise resulted in the Canberra (WK163), built by A.V. Roe at Woodford in 1954 as a 'B2' variant, being fitted with two Napier Double Scorpion Rocket Motors. On 28 August 1957, the aircraft broke the world altitude record by flying to 70,310 feet (Mike Randrup and Walter Shirley (don't call me Shirley!)).
:ooh:

[soddim]

I can confirm how difficult it was to take on the Vulcan - even in the Lightning. I once scissored with a Vulcan at 45000ft-ish and had to take advantage of his lack of vision to get a shot and that was against an opening target. Two well-flown Vulcans at night using ECM were nigh-on impossible.

However, before we get too carried away with how wonderful the Vulcan was, there would be few who would voluntarily act as target for a live firing F4!

[Noah Zark.]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. I thoroughly agree with the last line of Biggles' post. Lucky guys.
I too was priveliged ( as a civvie) to get a look round the inside of a Vulcan cockpit, it was so small you had to go outside to change your mind!
As a yoof, I occasionally used to get to lean on the fence at R.A.F. Finningley, about 25 miles from my domiciliary edifice, and watch the Vulcans and Valiants stationed there perform.
I don't know what squadrons they were part of, but I think I am right in saying that they were O.C.U.'s.
Ah, the good old days!

[Dr Jekyll]

After the Vulcan was retired was any consideration given to converting a few Victors back to bomber configuration for use in the event of a Falklands type campaign?

It always seemed a bit of a waste during the first gulf war to see 3 Tornados on a high altitude bombing mission, accompanied by a Victor to refuel them, 3 Buccaneers to carry the laser equipment, plus another Victor to refuel the Buccs.

Couldn't the 2 Victors (or even 1 Victor) do the same job on their own?

[Noah Zark.]

Interesting thought, Dr. Jek. Especially when you remember the Victor's lifting capability of 35 one-thousand pounders, even if they were the new smart concrete bombs.

[FEBA]

15.9 tonnes is that all. Blimey a Lanc could nearly match that (not quite as fast though)!!!

[Dan Winterland]

Er, don't think so. (Don spotters hat) Usual load for a Lanc was 12,000lbs, max about 16000lbs. Modified Lancs carried the 22,000lb Grand Slams.

[MadsDad]

Opposite type of thing to the 'how high will they go' and I'm not sure if this should be on the 'low flying' thread but since it was a Vulcan involved I'll put it here.

Lot of years ago, about 25 (so it must have been at the end of the Vulcans flying career), I was up on the North Yorks moors with a friend, recceing for a rally we were going to compete in. We were on a moorland road near a village called Cockayne (honest), which is about 10 miles west of Fylingdales. We had parked up for a leg stretch on one of the moorland roads, with the road being on the west side of a valley, about 50 feet below the crest of the hill.

I was leaning on the car having a cigarette when the entire hillside suddenly appeared to 'rear up' above me and move towards me. A couple of seconds later we had a Vulcan about 100 feet above us, heading east - the movement had been this thing suddenly appearing above the hill. He can't have been more than 50 feet above the top of the hill. I always assumed he must have been doing a practice run on Fylingdales (certainly heading that way) but it was a superb sight.

[FEBA]

Dan, I was thinking of the 22000 lbs payload capability of the Lancaster. So the Vulcan doesn't look quite so impressive when compared especially when you consider that the Vulcan was subsonic (I think the Lanc was too).
The real question here is based on an observation in another thread regarding the number of aircraft required to support a GR4 bombing mission - inflight re fuellers target markers etc etc- surely a few dedicated bombers could do the job far more cost effectively?? Discuss....

[Art Field]

I think there is a slight difference between Lancaster sub sonic and Vulcan sub sonic having watched the Lanc go by recently, a superb but lingering sight. I do not think the Lanc would have made the round trip Ascension/Mount Pleasant (all of 3000 each way) although we did put up a fair number of tankers (around 14 I seem to remember) to get the Vulcans there and back.

[Noah Zark.]

As I recall, the Victor was the only one of the V-Bombers to actually go supersonic, although I cannot recall the circumstances.

[Biggus]

FEBA

The RAF is supposed to be getting a large "bomber" type aircraft, capable of flying for 10+ hours, with a respectable bomb load and the ability to self designate targets. It could provide long term weapons loiter capablity, with the option to re-task in the air with its extensive comms suite. It is supposed to be capable of dropping every airborne weapon in the Nato inventory. It is true that it would be very vulnerable to a hi tech air defence system, but I am sure it would come into its own in some of the asymmetric "wars" we fight these days, e.g Afghanistan and Iraq. Certain it could, in some situations, replace a apckage of 4 Tornadoes, tanker support, etc.

Oh yes, I forgot to tell you what it is called. It is the Nimrod MRA4!! The A stands for attack. Provided the RAF employs it with some vision (keeping the name Nimrod was a mistake in my opinion), and the maritime boys don't just treat it like the old Nimrod, and the Tornado guys don't play "turf wars" to try and keep it out, it provides some great possibilities. Just a pity it won't be here for another 5/6/7/8/10/never* years!

* delete as applicable!

[Zoom]

Re Vulcan v F-4 - been there, done it, missed it most times, save for the occasional, unconvincing guns snapshot. 'Yeah, Fox 3 that time, thanks very much, time for a photo, gotta go now, byeeee.' Hmmmm. It was all about timing, and I didn't have it!

You probably know that Bruntingthorpe, Leics has a Vulcan and a Victor, as well as a Buccaneer, Lightning, Jaguar, JP, L-29 and others. I think that all but the Vulcan do regular taxi runs for the paying public. The Vulcan is the one that some keen bods are trying to get flyworthy, and they are looking for financial donations (and possibly aircrew one day!). Worth a visit, especially if you crave a whiff of Avtur and a battering of the eardrums.

[RFCC]

I remember the Crew Drill Trainer (XA 917 at Marham) having a plaque attached to record its supersonic achievement.

'On 1st June 1957 it became the largest aircraft to break the sound barrier on a test flight from Gaydon. Johnny Allam put her into a shallow dive at 40,000 ft and clocked up 675mph, which represented Mach 1.02. The Victor was quite stable throughout, giving observer Paul Langston little sensation of what was going on; he landed with distinction of being the first man to break the sound barrier going backwards!' (Acknowledgement to Andrew Brookes' fine book on the Victor)

[BEagle]

Not sure about supersonic - but I once did M0.97+ in a Vulcan B2!

For some reason we were transiting at FL450 instead of the usual FL410. ATC delayed our descent and, as Watt-the-Plot had cocked up our timing yet again, we needed a rapid descent to make the LL entry point at the right time. 'No problem', thought I, 'clost the throttles, smack the airbrakes out to 'high drag' and then accelerate against the drag to kill the height'. So I did - forgetting 2 important things. Not only was the IMN corresponding to the normal IAS higher up there, but I'd forgotten about the pronounced nose-down trim change which happened about 7 seconds after selecting airbrakes to mid drag. So as I chased the IAS, the IMN had already risen to 0.9 or so - and then the thing pitched forward as the a/b trim change bit... Vulcan chums will remember that Auto Mach Trim starts to apply more and more up elevon at high IMN just to maintain the pitch attitude, so as IMN increases, there's not much control column movement left for dive recovery if you're stupid enough to have got yourself pointing firmly downnwards at high IMN! M0.93 came and went, so did M0.95. I had the control column pretty well all the way back and yet the IMN was still increasing.....I stopped looking at M0.97! Fortunately the denser air began to win and I regained rather more control of the plunging monster at around FL300....

It was definitely a 'rapid descent' - but I nearly boomed Bawtry (HQ 1 (Bomber) Group at that time) in the process.....

I guess my experience on that day illustrates why people write Pilots' Notes and SOPs!!

[FEBA]

Thank you biggus.
So whilst our colleagues from over the water attack targets with B1's etc you would advocate we do the same with a comet! Ummm. Maybe we could attack a bit of shipping on the way back!
Beagle
I have a colleague at work who confirms that the vulcan was subsonic.

[Grob Driver]

For what it's worth, I think we should use Concorde as our next 'big bomber'.

[moggie]

As BEagle will attest, even the "humble" VC10 is certified M0.925 on the flat (with the cb on the high speed warning horn pulled) - and would do more if we didn't obey the rules.

As the test pilots at Boscombe found out, if you deploy full speedbrake at high altitude/Mach number in contravention of the Pilot's Notes then the resultant tuck under will send you trans-sonic before you get the chance to recover. BAe had fun repairing the damage to the fin on that tanker!

[BEagle]

Weren't they actually trying to do 2 test points at the same time in contravention of their test schedule?

The first time I recovered from the high IMN run on a full VC10 flight test, the co-pilot extended the speedbrakes rather quickly. The resulting pitch forces were quite surprising! Thereafter I always used to demo it to new pilots in the simulator so that they knew what to expect.

The ancient '10 is only ever flown over 0.866 IMN on full flight tests nowadays - no more '$od the fuel burn - rig for silent running'....

[Biggus]

FEBA

Yes our friends from over the water attack targets using B1-s, but their navy attacks land targets using P-3s (thats a Lockheed Electra to you mate, even older than the Comet!!) with long range PGMs. So if you are going to start comparing them to us!!

There is another thread on here, "lrnp", where they talk about serious studies into launching PGMs from A-400s, C-17s, C-130s. The whole point is that if the weapon has most of the brains the launch aircraft used is largely irrelevant provided it has the necessary range, endurance, comms fit and ability to self-designate the weapons!

Some of the US B-52s are older than the Nimrods, take the piss out of them then. I told you vision was required!!

[G Fourbee]

Is there no end to Beagle's knowledge and experience? Just to set our minds at rest, suggest he puts his RAF Form 414 online and let us all judge accordingly!

[Dan Winterland]

The Victor Mk1 was quite capable of supersonic flight despite only having weedy Sapphire engines rated at 11000lbs on a good day. It was almost perfectly area ruled and would slip through transonic flight effortlessly. The Mk2 had Conways which meant a deeper wing section which spoilt the area ruling. As a consequence, you got quite marked Mach buffet from about .92. The MMO of the Mk1 was .98 wheras the Mk2 was .95.

The 4th developement airframe was officially flown supersonic during testing. The cockpit section was later employed as the crew emergency trainer at Marham. However, I have it on very good authority that a number of the Mk1s were flown supersonic by their crews 'just for the experience'.