View Full Version : LH to take over or merge with SR?????

6th May 2003, 23:25
Anybody have any more info on this possibility?

Dow Jones Business News
Swiss Air Surges On Merger, Takeover Hopes With Lufthansa
Tuesday May 6, 9:37 am ET

ZURICH -(Dow Jones)- Shares of troubled Swiss International Air Lines Tuesday soared almost 40% on hopes the flag carrier could join forces with German peer Deutsche Lufthansa AG .
Rumors that the companies could either merge or Lufthansa take over its unprofitable Swiss peer have been on the rise since late last month, when Swiss media reported the airlines were in joint talks.

However, while Swiss confirmed it was in talks with Lufthansa, it said they were part of the company's general and ongoing dialogue with other industry members.

Lufthansa declined comment on the content talks.

At 1320 GMT Swiss shares were up 57.5% at CHF7.65 in unusually high volume. The leap follows a 20% rise Monday, dealers said.

The dramatic increase in the share price had sparked renewed rumors of a merger, dealers said.

"The volume is rising. Where there's smoke there is fire," said one dealer.

Company Web Site:http://www.swiss.com

-By Goran Mijuk, Dow Jones Newswires; +41 1 211 70 14; [email protected]

7th May 2003, 00:24
We'll see after the General Assembly in Basel today I guess .... some more hard facts at least.

It would be the best that can happen.

The ex-Crossair-pilots have been f##**d at least twice by the company (Swiss - ex SR, now LX) after the presentation/launch of Swiss Express (SEX) and as long as the ex-Swissair-pilots do not realize they have 0-zeeeero-seniority and have absolutely NO saying in Swiss ..........

I cross the fingers and certainly hope the strike by the Crossair-pilots will go trough ........

blue belly
7th May 2003, 05:46
PPP- are you so stupid, not to realise that Crossair was saved 3, yes 3 times from bankruptcy by Swissair...Swissair airline always made money, its just the trash that they were carrying around so long that sent them tits up... Yes the managers in swissair made a lot of errors.
If the Crossair pilots go on strike, it's over fro everyone...Wake up! There is no money to be made with the regional operation as it is today!!!

Kerosene Kraut
7th May 2003, 16:29
Okay let's assume LH buying into Swiss even during these tricky times. What could they use it for? Take the swiss-premium pax to feed their long haul network (Asia+US) from the new MUC hub, which is so close to Zurich. Except for maybe a little crossair traffic remaining and some Geneva routes I can't see too much surviving. (Not blaming LH for this)
However wouldn't it be more attractive to socialize with BA and keep a little more than nothing?

7th May 2003, 16:42
Well, you mean, they went blue belly up, huh... ;)

And of course we are very grate ful for the masters to have saved us from demise sooo many times, that we are willing and thrilled go serve you in slavery until our last breath.

I am confident, that the court of arbitration will use his common and legal sense to see what is going on in our company. Have a chat with the Dat-guys, and you will then see how it could have turned out, with a management with fundamental knowledge of law and decency, without us having to go to court.

And if you say that if we former Crossair Pilots go on strike it will send it all into oblivion, then the management better move it... if they think it is worth it to save the overdimensioned Long-haul segment.

Just wanted to say this before this thread gets moved AGAIN from this page. I cannot see how all of you can stay so indifferent to how we are being mistreated by arbitrary decisions of our management. Of course, times are rough, but does that give the right to act illegally? And I know you Ex-Swissair guys felt let down as Swissair went bankrupt, but they just went out of business and did not breach a contract with you (Which does not prevent you from each taking 100'000 CHF out of the carcasse of Swissair, which leaves less for the creditors, and guess where they will be looking for the money once Swiss Express= Crossair has been split off? Will be hard to prove that the SWISS remainders are not Swissair!).

We will fight!

And moderatar, give me a hint where i can spill my bile next time.


7th May 2003, 18:07
How does it feel to change from hunter to game...
A couple of years ago , SR was hunting down every little airline to became a major in Europe. They didn't care about the mess they made on those french,belgian or portuguese airlines. They just wanted them as feeders. But now, they are on the other side...
This post as nothing against the workers of ex-SR but their management which inflicted so much suffering everywhere.:sad:

7th May 2003, 20:24
It's pretty pathetic to see this carry on with the company in such trouble. It's a bit like Nero fiddling while Rome burned...

There are so many people within the airline business that just haven't learned from the mistakes of others. There's no point bleating about what SR management did. They are long gone.

Don't hang around waiting for the White Knight. He ain't comin'...
The flight attendants that I saw on TV interviews seemed to have the right attitude (and I know that many of them are on the breadline too...). Many of them said that it wasn't a great situation, but if it meant keeping the company going they'd take a pay cut. The fact is, nowadays, with so many pilots out of work, you can't afford to be so militant in a country that has relatively little labour protection (in comparison with its European neighbours).

I've got a good buddy who was a first officer with AA. He just lost his job. Anyone fancy swapping places?

8th May 2003, 06:46
Snoopy is right. You ex-Crossair pilots can stop waiting for a White Knight. He is not going to come!

Yes Swissair is no more, BUT, you cannot possibly believe that all that money was put up by the good tax paying people of Switzerland so that you could reign supreme (ie have seniority) over the ex pilots of Swissair do you? Swissair was a recognized brand - worldwide. The politicians of Switzerland decided that this was not worth losing. Hence, the fiasco existing today called Swiss. But lets get one thing straight. It was NOT the pilots of Swissair, nor their salaries that put Swissair out of business, but incompetent management. In fact their Union, Aeropers, were known as a "company friendly" partner who were not adverse to making compromises in order to help out the company in times of trouble. Because of the huge debt and default thereof to other companies, a new company had to be created. Why they decided to use Crossair as a vehicle is open to discussion, but I am sure they were not thinking that the Crossair pilots were somehow going to become the senior partner in all this and be re-trained onto MD11 and Airbus to boot. Suter was kicked out of his own company and Swiss operates under another name than Crossair today. If it was still Crossair, why is that? Worst of all for you, even Andre Dose has abandoned you. Market forces are at work here and no matter what you do or say are going to prevail!

Will this new division of Swiss work? Time will tell, but I am not overly optimistic. Who is to blame? Everyone will have his own culprit, but it is a waste of time to rail against the Swissair part of the pilot corps. What their Union has achieved for them is merely what any union should achieve for its membership - the best deal available. Can you say the same of your own union, who decided to fight not only Aeropers but management too? Once again time will tell, but I would not hold my breath waiting if I was you!

8th May 2003, 12:09
You asked me for a hint as to where you can spill your bile:
go to David Bieli's front door and deposit it there. He and the absurdly named 'Swiss Pilots' are responsible for your miserable situation. The Dose made them a reasonable offer, which through their greed, jealousy and intransigence was rejected. You will now have to live with the consequences.
Do not expect the court of arbitration to decide in your favour. This is Switzerland, the land of collusion, fraternisation and compromise where grey men in grey suits ensure that the establishment prevails.
Oh, and by the way the payout from the Swissair reciever to most pilots will be more than the figure you mention. Don't forget that we were also shareholders (albeit reluctantly as bonuses were paid in the form of blocked shares) and that under Swiss law employees have first priority. You might care to remember this after your strike action has brought your part of the company to ruin.

8th May 2003, 13:37
Moderatar (cool name due to a typing error of mine)

could you please explain to me, what the good deal proposed by AD was? To sign the B-CLA, which would have put 700 of our Pilots at the end of the common seniority list and would have given the chance to downsize the loss-making long-haul right away? You are right, it would have been nice for the company and Aeropers in order to correct their mistakes without sheding one drop of their blood.
So I fully understand and support the actions of SWISS PILOTS, as they have - as well as Aeropers - protected the working places of their members. And I also support the Swiss Express, but only if all sh-fleet - this means the A320 as well - are included.

I am not envious of the ex-Swissair drivers, who are to snatch a small goodie on >100'000 CHF in addition to their pension fund of 3.6 mio CHF each. At the time I started with Crossair I had seen our salary list and I can live happily ever after with that. But I have also seen the clauses about seniority in my contract, and this will be important.

You probably do not know yet, but the court will rule in our favour. We do not need a knight in shining armour, thanks, we have a basel-based court of arbitration, that's quite enough.

And about the main topic of the tread: I allocate more intelligence to LH as to be willing to take over the entire Swiss. And Swiss will not let go of their slave-fleet to another competitor, as then they would even make bigger losses by loosing too many of their 58% transit pax. Feels like a bad déjà-vu!

8th May 2003, 14:23
I am not envious of the ex-Swissair drivers, who are to snatch a small goodie on >100'000 CHF in addition to their pension fund of 3.6 mio CHF each.

Well, Aviatrix69, give me those 3.6 mio pension and I give you my seniority, my job and all I get from bankrupt SR - nowhere near 100'000 CHF. Is that an offer? You really should stop to write such bullshit! I have no clue where your Mr. Bieli has such figures from.

Fact is, that the court of arbitration ruling won't change a thing. You will get a new contract with Swiss Express after one year of remaining validity of your GAV under OR333. That's after transition to the new company. If Swiss Express decides not to accept SPA as social partner you might even get a single work contract. If the corps goes on strike this might give Swiss a very good excuse to downsize further - say to about 20 - 30 regional aircraft in order to get a reasonable size in relation to the mainline... Ooops!

That's what happens when you go to full confrontation with your company without beeing backed by the rest of the workforce, the politics and economical reason! So go on complaining about Swiss, Aeropers, the PPRUNE moderators and the whole world but don't be surprised if you won't get any sympathy and will eventually loose you job in your course of action!

8th May 2003, 15:57
This was about LH taking over LX right? So how did this become yet again a bickering "oh I'm such a better pilot then you are 'cause I'm from SRAS" "... but you are an arrogant miserable little puck" threat?:\

So how about LH? Are they gonna put stickers on ex-ex-SR a/c sporting the "Luft Luft Luft" logo soon or what?:E

Kerosene Kraut
8th May 2003, 18:45
380, that might exactly point to the problem here. Violent battle within instead of competing on the market. Their product looks okay ( well, aside from being way too big), their cost not.
Sad to see it starting all over again.

8th May 2003, 23:24
You're sure right N380UA. Sorry for loosing my temper - I just cannot here this whining anymore...
Back to the topic: I don't see why LH should be interested in a takeover of SWISS. They have - as every other airline right now - to solve their problems first, before thinking about spending money for non-organic expansion. And of course SWISS will have to solve its problems too! Only a profitable airline is an attractive partner - be it in a merger or an alliance. Sadly SWISS is still far from this point and some people still don't see the urgence of the situation...

blue belly
9th May 2003, 15:03
Unfortuantely the Crossair guys will never get it....
Good luck all!

blue belly
11th May 2003, 18:34
Just was speaking with a friend of mine at the crew dispo, he told me a few interesting facts...
Come on you ex Crossair guys- if you dont turn up for work and they have to cancel flights, there will be no future for Swiss!! How can you expect people to fly with an airline where many flights have to be cancelled due to pilots sleeping in???? You are letting everyone in Swiss down, not to mention the whole country...
At least you could work professionally...

12th May 2003, 06:51
Yes of course blue belly, patriotism, the last and futile resort of the scoundrel.

Poor dispatch reliability within the SWISS regional fleet? Here we go again, blame it all on the ex-Crossair pilots. SWISS management practice and decisions obviously have no bearing whatsoever.

As for the comments "At least you could work professionally..." you just could not help yourself. I was not aware SWISS employed unprofessional pilots. Do you think by erroneously and mischievously dragging down the efforts of around a thousand ex-Crossair pilots to save SWISS in these extremely difficult and challenging times, that you will improve the survival chances of the company and the 800 plus ex-Swissair drivers!?

blue belly
12th May 2003, 19:05
I am sure they employ professionals, but the way they go about their job is very poor... sleeping in and so on... thats what i mean.

Thye are doing just fine at dragging themselves down!! I mean this was a very poor show last week in Basel with the coffin and dark sunglasses! I don't know whose idea that was, but zero points guys!!!