SAA's new recruitment agenda!!!

[beechbum]

:sad:
Rumour has it that SAA has amended it's agenda for pilot recruitment.Apparently a moratorium has been set, that for the next two years, only the 'previously disadvantaged' will be recruited to fill the cockpits of SAA's new fleet.Where does this leave the likes of myself who have aspired for many years to get there. Is it time to jump ship? Anyone care to comment?:ugh: :ugh:

[Skaz]

thats just typical, maybe not enough coke is getting through:\

first its' noooo, you need 60,000 hours PIC heavy jet" and now this crap, .... in the grand scheme of things, THEY SUCK :yuk:

[B Sousa]

Once the word hits the General Public. SAA will be flying with many empty seats. They will either have to get their act together or go under.

[Joop]

I don't think we have enought "previously disadvantage" to fill all the seats that need filling. Hopefully that will give "presentlly disadvantaged" some hope!

[flutter by]

Seeming SAA have this new procedure now, it sounds like most of us wants to work for SAA.

Just a question, how do u okes feel about Comair, Nationwide and Kulula...would it not be great to fly for them as well? I dunno just a question, I myself would like to fly for my national carrier as well, but with all this info were getting, basically telling us that if your not from the previously disadvantaged group we can basically go and stuff ourselves, dunno how do you okes feel about these other carriers, are they the same or would we stand a better chance in flying for them? Do the SAA pilots get the best paid?:sad:

just a though, use it don't use:8

[Skaz]

what SAA is saying to us all, is that were just not as equal as certain other people, basically were too white.
this is discrimination and if SAA sees its ass, I'll have a good chuckle about it.
I dont fly with them, cause they suck, and I dont particularly want to fly for them either, not if this is an indication of their attitude to the hard working pilots out there trying to make it up the 'corporate ladder' , just to hit a glass ceiling cause youre not an ex-freedom fighta:ok: (how'dyo get the middle finger up?)

[George Tower]

I have to agree that if indeed this rumour is true it is both sad and worrying. Affirmative action does nobody any good. Firstly the country will lose all it's valuable skilled professionals and secondly those previously disadvantaged okes that genuinely make the grade on merit will always have to carry the burden of never quite knowing whether they are truely there on merit.

When I think of the shambles that politicians have created in Rugby and Cricket, I try to console myself with the fact that it can't happen in aviation - surely not?

I'm sat here thinking about what could be done about it. I'm sure that 99% of pilots must agree that the policy of affirmative action is wrong. What would happen if senior pilots i.e. training captains refused to co-operate with this policy and didn't train pilots whom they thought had no been fairly selected? I'm sure acusations of racism would fly and the people concerned would lose their jobs but in theory at any rate it would render the governments policy unworkable as it will have to be through the senior white captains that they implement such a policy.

Is it possible that with strong organised opposition the industry can not go the same way as other parts of the country?

[BAKELA]

GT, I don't want to play devils advocate here, but from experience and judging how things have gone (and is still going) in other aviation organisations and structures, I don't think we have a hope in hell that organised opposition, or any other measure for that matter, will have any effect.

I don't want to mention names but the State departments and parastatals involved with aviation have demonstrated that the upkeep of standards mean nothing when it gets to the implementation of policies similar to this. If it's true, it's very, very sad indeed:sad:.

[goblin]

Hi there

Is there anybody out there who had second interviews at SAA late last year who had heard anything more from them?

Regards

[concordino]

I think this recent decision to apply affirmative action is reasonable provided SAA recruits direct entry pilots (white) from the private pilot training sector.
Think about it, most white candidates either have higher financial ranking or hold privileges to live overseas and to work there in many cases plus their educational backgrounds are usually more advanced due to their environment.
I speak from real life experience with SAA 6 and 7 courses in at BAE in Adelaide.
I think it is time to catch up with people who haven’t had a chance in the past and ideally the company’s racial distribution should be representative of the nations composition.
As for the previously disadvantaged pilots not being sure about their merit, just rest assured GT that they didn’t get to where they are until they met all the requirements and the standards.
I remember that when the cadet recruitment officer visited the courses in Adelaide, there were always cadets terminated and guess their backgrounds.
I know for sure that the guys that went through worked hard for what they are now.
Few thoughts
:cool:

[SortieIII]

I believe that those affected by the new AA employment policies at SAA are direct entry candidates, and not cadet route pilots. Rumour has it that many of those now being appointed have been previously turned down as unsuitable, but are now being appointed by "political pressure" applied from outside SAA!

Note with interest an article on NEWS24 website today regarding the training of SAAF pilots. Apparently similar "pressure" is being applied to pass pupils who have not met the required performance standards.

Sad & worrying, if it's true.

[AfricanSkies]

concordino, the government of this country changed nearly a decade ago . White kids who are applying to SAA now for cadetships were primary school kids then.

4HP, maybe you'll rev me for this (can't think why, just a knee-jerk guilty reaction at going to say something about race), but maybe its time to call a spade a spade. Most of the black pilots whom I encounter are presently advantaged in that they come from rich families, plus they are black. Show me some township boys whose parents live in a shack and I'll show you someone who isn't a pilot. Not only that, some of the ones who have made it are not exactly presenting shining examples to the rest of us.

There are some very capable blacks out there, not just in aviation. Its sad that the majority are giving the minority a bad name. If ten years after coming into government, and having complete power to alter things, blacks can't stand on their own two feet without intervention and political support, then its a poor show and reflects on their ability to actually do the job.

Obviously apartheid is alive and well in South Africa. Its very sad and if it doesn't change, this country is going the way of Zimbabwe and every other tinpot country in Africa, which will give the continent a 100% strike rate.

Wonder if one can bet at a bookies on this sort of thing?

[concordino]

AfricanSkies,

Are there pilots from previously disadvantaged groups graduating from the Private flying schools in SA?

In this case, SAA should recruit cadet courses with a racial composition equal to that of the nation. Although at the end of the course the racial representation will be altered due to many being terminated. That would be fair I think.
I know of a course that started out with more than a dozen and ended with 6 I think.

[SortieIII]

In this case, SAA should recruit cadet courses with a racial composition equal to that of the nation.

concordino, that is exactly what they have done from the inception of the scheme.

Most courses of this type have an attrition rate of about 40%.

[AfricanSkies]

concordino says... "In this case, SAA should recruit cadet courses with a racial composition equal to that of the nation. Although at the end of the course the racial representation will be altered due to many being terminated. That would be fair I think."

Rubbish.

1) Get race OUT of your mind for once, and recruit people. Stop counting 'theres so many whites and so many browns and so many yellows and so many pinks so everythings OK and nobody is offended'.

2) If you did recruit 50 candidates and and 40 washed out, what is the cost of the exercise going to be? And the cost of future exercises which blindly ignore experience? and the total cost of assessing and half-training and re-assessing 500 candidates in order to employ 50?

There is a tried and tested manner of executing processes such as selection; candidates untertake tests before too much is spent on them and if they fail, they are out. It doesn't matter what their background is, who their daddy is or what colour they are....if they do not make the grade they are out. Tried and tested in many airlines and airforces the world over, since they began. Now South Africa (Airforce and Airways both) sees fit to throw this experience to the wind and do its own thing...at its peril. Any fool can see it is more cost-intensive and foolish to lower selection standards, except the fools doing the selection, it seems.

[concordino]

Why does the race issue offend you?

The race card will always be there whether you like it or not, because it is a political issue. It is beyond you and me and neither one of us can change it. I would love to be in your world where people are just people and no politics...

Yes hire people the way you say it, that is if everyone was equal in all terms. Plus who said that they would select future pilots without assessments and tests?

It would be financially suicidal to recruit people without assessing them. SAA cadets in Adelaide had to do almost 1year of testing and assessments before they were sent over.
You should know that even with candidates passing tests and evaluations it doesn’t mean a 100% pass rate.

What is the point of a cadetship, when SAA could hire from hundreds if not thousands of qualified pilots out there and save the money you are talking about?
:rolleyes:

[AfricanSkies]

The race issue doesn't offend me, it just makes no sense to me. Its affirmative action which offends me.

You are right, it is a political thing, which is wrong. The point of a revolution is SA was to get rid of race in politics. Now the racial advantage/disadvantage has just been reversed. The politics are warped. Politics such as these make SAA recruit more cadets of one race than of another, deliberately (and unconstitutionally) and then when they couldn't take these cadets on, these same politics forced other companies to take these cadets on in place of other, currently disadvantaged, (ie. white), pilots who had worked their way up the hard way, on their own. These same warped politics keep airforce cadets on course despite the fact that they have been measured and found wanting.

Possibly you could point out where in this whole 'racially-equal' 'democracy' we live in affirmative action has a place, and by when, perhaps, will everybody be deemed 'equal enough' for artificial support on a racial basis to be terminated?

[concordino]

I think there is no democracy when powerful people’s interests interfere to make rules and regulations.
Politically speaking, affirmative action is usually a mean to get a society to spread opportunities evenly based on the distribution of different ethnicities.
AA exists even in countries where slavery has been abolished long ago. Take the US for example; AA is alive and happening in the University educational system...

I am against AA if that means lowering standards, and aviation is no field where one can afford to lower standards. For that matter SAA should make sure they are recruiting those who you mentioned before as ABLE individuals not just anybody.

Leaving the SAAF issue aside (I am not in a position to make any judgment on that), and in answer to your question, I don’t think a racially equal democracy could easily exist especially in the near term. But I think SAA should hire equally a number of the White pilots who have worked hard and self sponsored their training.

I heard of SAA giving some of the SA operators some graduating cadets (I know of a couple who went to Rossair), I think that these operators are under no obligation to take them but guess what is making them do it? It is politics and interests lots of people don’t know about.
Life is a bitch and we live in a cruel world, I could go on and on…:sad:

Good luck to all of you aspiring to become pilots with decent jobs, and if you don’t get a cadetship, it is not the end of the world just have contingency plans if the cadetship channel fails.
:cool:

[assymetric]

hi have recently worked in the great RSA (i am not a local). Racism is alive and well. Except now it is in reverse. Whites are discrimenated against because of their race. Blacks ,Indians, etc get preference even though they may have a lot less experience.
You tell me that is fair.

B4 you all start jumping up and down some of the best friends I had in the RSA were blacks and Indians

[kiron]

Well i must say that I agree with the AA policy to a degree . The line must be drawn at some point i guess .

When it comes down to the simplest of things such as motivation and a will to want to do something , you have to select those candidates with a PASSION .

I firmly believe that SAA have and still are recruiting cadets who never really had a passion for flying . I have a friend currently at SAA . He's never really wanted to be a pilot but saw the ad in the newspaper , applied , did testing for a year obviously bull****ed his way through the interviews and made it through .

He is a good guy though and now loves what hes doing !!

Anyway , the other point I'd like to make , being indian myself , is that people of colour are only recently(past 9yrs) being exposed to careers that were previously only for white people . So when an indian/black/coloured person see's and ad in the newspaper on becoming a pilot(free of charge) they'd be crazy if they didnt apply . I am only saying this because a career in aviation for a non-white person previously , was unheard off , unless you cleaned the toilets,swept the hangers or became a fuel bowser .

My dad has alwayz wanted to fly . Eversince i can remember hes always collected books , model aircraft and the like .

So back in the late 70's when he just finished school he thought that he could pursue his flying career . His only hope was the airforce cause his DAD worked in a clothing factory and earned the bare minimum . (so general aviation was out of the question) Obviously his dad never got a promotion after all his years of service ----- YOU KNOW WHY "????? you guessed right , cause he wasnt WHITE .....so my dad heard there was an intake at the airforce , but due to his COLOUR he never stood a chance .

I am sure that there were many like him !! BUt hey he holds no grudges and never feels any hatred . HE's proud though cause he paid for my Commercial Pilots Licence , and with me being only 20 I guess i am proud too . I applied to the cadet scheme but never made it to the end . (dont know why)....that didnt stop me cause I perserveared . And thats exactly what all you guys complaining out there are gonna do ...

[concordino]

Kiron,

Good post, I am glad you decided to still go for training even if the cadetship didn't work for you.

good luck
:cool:

[Warlock2000]

Back to the original question, "Is it time to jump ship?" - No, that time was about 4 - 5 years ago!
;)

Africanskies, agree 100% with what you say. Simply put, affirmative action IS racism! I wonder if in 10 years time only whites will be employed because they're from a previously disadvantaged group? I think NOT!
:ok:

[Skaz]

Warlock & AfricanSkies I agree with both of you.

Affirmative action is a discriminatory practice based on race and skincolour and NOT qualifications, ability & experience.

This will result in a situation where people do not want to fly with SAA because of a perception that the crews are not qualified. Bloody hell, I dont even fly with them! If for no other treason than to withold my few pennies outta the coffers that pay for these bullsh1t practices to be enforced.

I have no problem flying a flight crew member that is qualified, experienced and there because of his or her qualifications and skills..........not race and body odour.

I know Air Botch's crews spent ages at the school that has their contract, but the problem will be solved by throwing money at it till they go solo with 250hours and first venture into the GFA.

Bob Mugabe should apply as well, they'll make him 744 chief training captain I suppose:yuk: :ok:
(damn , still cant get the middle finger up:suspect: )

[George Tower]

The arguments made on behalf of affirmative action are weak and rely on emotive issues. I think some serious damage could be done to the SA economy because of it. It's interesting to hear half of the ANC government talking about affirmative action and at the same time other members of the Government are worrying about how to attract and retain skilled professionals the country so desperately needs.

I think that there has to be a better way other than quotas to provide equality of opportunity to all and make it work.

[Gunship]

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.:yuk:

[AfricanSkies]

I bet...that one would win a case against a company which practises affirmative action in the Constitutional Court. Now that would throw a spanner amongst the pigeons. Erm, the cat in the works. Barman! nog 'n rondte!

[Skaz]

Great idea:ok: :} .....till you wanna apply there for a job....doh:eek: :uhoh: :{ :ugh: :hmm: ....:ouch:

[Assweat]

How unfair things seem when the apartheid shoe is on the other foot. Yes the affirmative action policy is wrong/unfair, however so was the white government policy's of years gone by.

If you don't like it, leave. Remember many coloureds and blacks were forced to do this inorder to give their chidren and themselves the oppotunities that they were denied by the apartheid system. Why is it, that back then the general thought was good riddance. But now that it's happening to whites we call it a brain drain. How hypocritical.

Apart from death and taxes there is only one other thing in life that you can count on and thats CHANGE.

Remember one mans loss is another mans gain.

[El Peligroso]

"How unfair things seem when the apartheid shoe is on the other foot. Yes the affirmative action policy is wrong/unfair, however so was the white government policy's of years gone by."

...and your point is?
Oh sorry I get it, lets keep living in the past! :ok:

"If you don't like it, leave." -> I have.

KAK post! :yuk:

[4HolerPoler]

I get the feeling that the world (as we know it) will be a better place if I close this thread & allow it to quietly slip off the bottom of the page.

4HP