Cape Flying Services...south Africa

[sanjo69]

hello there

Did you have a bad experience at Cape Flying Services George or with its UK agent Mr Naunton Pugh ?

Please send me your stories, I have had a very bad experience and my advice to you if you are considering going there for any reason...think again ! because it is too good to be true.

Don't get stung like many others !!!


Interested in my story ? send me your email address

regards


Sandy

[4HolerPoler]

You're playing it very close to the line Sandy - especially for a 2nd post. Please email details of your experience and based on that we'll review as to the advisability of the continued presence of this thread. I'll leave it here, on the expectation that your email will be sent.

Thanks. 4HP

[south coast]

another person who has had an 'experience' at that place.
4 holer, i could name several names with the same story about that place, all friends, and i was also there and witnessed what happened to others as well as myself....


be careful when considering this school!

[sanjo69]

4 holer

Many thanks for the response to the query

I am sure that given the time there will be a lot of people "who will come out of the woodwork" about this school

My objectives are two fold, firstly, warning about this school and hopefully this is the platform to air these concerns, people to be careful when considering it for flight training and secondly if people are prepared to tell their "first hand" account of their story via email to me maybe we can stop this "burning" of well earned hard cash by people with an interest in furthering their aviation career, lets face it I just got burned for nearly £5000.00(3 weeks trip to South Africa and "training"), understanding and reasonable people would not be very happy about that.

my email address is [email protected]

feel free to email me and I will supply further details of my experiences or should it be aired on this forum

please advise

sandy

[Gunship]

Personnaly (AND I DID SAY PERSONALLY) I feel it must be aired on this thread. If it is against the rules 4HP I understand but surely we can all make up our own minds.

I am in the process off registering my son with a FLYING SCHOOL and I might change my mind about a few things.

Cheers and good luck,

Gunnss

[Skaz]

sanjo69 - mate, I've PM'ed you and no reply. Put your money where your mouth is or shut it

[CFI-CFS]

Hi
Rather than replying to Sandy's post, I suggest that anyone who wants to hear it "from the horses mouth" . should phone the following number SA 44 8769114. Its the phone located in our Club House and will be answered by the closest student.


Gerald Todd

[Gunship]

Lo Boys and gals ... yes your favourite is back ... :yuk:

No more mom and kids .. "...daddy give us as much attention as you give the computer .." ... eischh I miss SA already.

Ok where are we ... Sandy ... Sandy (thought you where female mate ) .. Ok I was at CFS and was VERY impressed !

I asked students about Sandy and I did not get a good response. I asked about the school and I got a very good response. So I am sure there are 2 sides to a story. CFI - CFS we have not met - sad we did not as we could have shared a few urgent thoughts but just to let you know after looking at most of the flying schools in the Cape I think I have chosen CFS to train my kid to PPL and possibly CPL.

So Sandy jump out of the closet mate ( I have mailed you and asked for your comments and had NO response) - about a month ago ....

Cheers and thanks for giving this thread some air 4HP :ok:

[sanjo69]

Cape Flying Services (Europe)

Firstly may I take this opportunity in thanking all those people who have taken the time to visit, add comments. Email and reply to this “thread” regarding the above flying school

It is quite clear there are a number of you who have a special interest in this “bad experience” of mine for whatever reason and I shall try to keep you informed as it develops. I am not a vindictive person and don’t wish to use this site to “throw mud” and falsely accuse anyone of any wrong doing.

This is a true and physical life experience of someone, not by “word or mouth”. Perhaps; I am an irrelevant person, who wanted to achieve his lifetime aviation goal of a PPL (A). This person could be you, your daughter, son, indeed, could be anyone out there right now! Remember the decisions you had to make when you where starting out when you wanted to learn how to fly! And you may be considering the options in how to achieve this goal for that person at this moment.

Naunton Pugh, based in the UK and by his own words”looks after the interest of the Cape Flying Services within the UK and Europe”, the school being based in George, South Africa sold myself an all inclusive residential package of a PPL course for £2895.00, that is, 25hours dual, 15 hours solo and a further 5 hours solo or simulator (as advertised). This price included essentially everything except medical and food during my visit to South Africa. The correspondence I have also indicate that the course “can” be completed “from scratch” within my allocated time in South Africa i.e.: 30th March till 18th April 2003 provided I get my head around the ground school subjects. I feverishly studied to get obtain as much knowledge, with the help of Trevor Thom books, part 1- 7, prior to departure.

Upon arrival in South Africa, I was escorted to my “crew house” accommodation (as not advertised) that happened to be a “student residence” an excuse need I say any more but a noisy, drugs infested block of flats that clearly was inappropriate for a person wishing to become a pilot. It was indicated that this residence was only intended to be used for “a few days”. Perhaps, a sign of an over subscribed flying school. Within a few days of arrival the school by their own admission indicated they had cancelled the lease upon “signing” realising it was obviously inappropriate and further added there would be alternative and more appropriate accommodation available around the 11th or 14th April. The so called PPL and CPL houses where overcrowded with students at different levels of training. Sometime around Thursday 10th April, I was offered a room at one of the crew houses and declined for legitimate reasons.

The main objective of the trip was to obtain the PPL licence, therefore, minor “political” issues was to be tolerated by myself. However, one of the major causes of concern was that(as advertised)” for every 1 hour flying you will spend around 3 hours on ground school” I attended at most 3 hours ground school for the duration of my time there. As ground school for PPL was just non existent. My availability for lectures was without question.

Mr Gerald Todd, the Chief Flying Instructor, was seen on the first day and last day of my trip, hardly an advert for a personalised structured course (as advertised) Mr Todd on the last day of my trip infuriated me by his comments relating to Naunton Pugh, financial reconciliation and seemed to distance himself from the agent. I quickly realised that any “quibble” I had with any aspect of the course needed to be directed to Naunton Pugh, the agent, the person who sold the course.

The actual flying instruction at the school was carried out by dedicated, loyal and hardworking professional instructors; indeed, by far the day to day running of the school is carried out by the instructors without any apparent input by “senior management” Unfortunately, my course was structured to “hour building” than “working to complete the PPL” I achieved solo status with a total of 33.5 hours dual and 1.6 hours solo, an achievement, however, far short of my target of completion with PPL licence and hours paid in advance to CFS. Mr Todd sings praise to this achievement but tends to forget that the 3 week period was to actually complete the course (as advertised). It is clear that there is a serious communication problem between Mr Todd and his agent relating to what is sold and what is actually provided or just that Mr Todd and Naunton Pugh thinks that “we are all a few cards short of a full deck” you decide!!!

There was a serious aviation incident that took place within the first ten days there that severely affected my ability to accept that this was a professional school with integrity. The aircraft serviceability is questionable, as I have personally experienced during my time, 4 breakdowns with my own trainer aircraft, arguably due to poor maintenance resulting in lost flying time.

To date the agent owes myself money for flying hours not taken (9.9 hours), overcharge on the invoice (£100.00), point blank refuses to discuss any issue raised in two detailed letters sent to him (22nd April: with “no constructive comment” and 2 May 2003: commented, “I have spoken to Gerald Todd, go ahead with anything you wish, we will defend very vigorously and you’ll lose”) and now threatens me with legal action (19th May 2003) for “libel and defamatory comments” , demanding an unreserved apology for comments made on this very website. Strangely, in this day of high level customer service focus, I have yet to receive a phone call from Naunton Pugh or Gerald Todd to discuss and sort out this matter of my dissatisfaction with the school and all relevant dealings since my return to the UK on 20th April 2003. I will refuse to back down; the facts are here and in my documentary proof. I am now suing Naunton Pugh for the full cost of my trip to South Africa, around £5000.00. These comments form just part of the main correspondence that has been sent to Naunton Pugh at Cape Flying Services (Europe) and Gerald Todd at Cape Flying Services, George, South Africa. The completion cost of my PPL will be around £2000.00 in the UK

The conclusion quite simply:
FACT, advertised ground school…answer non existent……WHY?
FACT, accommodation of poor quality and inappropriate…answer over subscribed flying school and not as advertised……WHY?
FACT, integrity of school…answer, compromised by handling of aircraft incident…..WHY?
FACT, aircraft serviceability…..answer, compromised
FACT, senior management problem handling….answer you decide!!!....WHY?
FACT, “the very best flight training you can get” (as advertised) …answer…… I am sure, most others are much better in South Africa.

So, my personal advice to you, if you are thinking about going to (worthwhile) South Africa for any kind of aviation experience, be extraordinarily vigilant, before you consider this school and includes dealings with Naunton Pugh (he either doesn’t know this is happening or condones it !)

It is highly unlikely that any further comment is forthcoming from me until the legal issue of full refund has been dealt with.


Thank You


Sandy Young

[4HolerPoler]

Thanks for putting your full story on the thread Sandy. Good post. Needless to say, I'm sure that Cape Flying Services will have their own version of events. And in that, they are more than welcome to post their version here; in fact I would encourage it. Your move to introduce legal proceedings does complicate the issue somewhat but in the interest of maintaining freedom of speech and allowing your post to act as an advice to other PPRuNers I have no problem keeping this thread going.

4HP

[Gunship]

Oh no guys ... why me .... :{

W H Y M E

Ok ... I received both your PM's ... guys seriously I do not want to be the Horse Thief here.

My suggestion (it has worked before) asked Francois Marais and the Huey Story ...

Sandy has made his point.
CFI CFS make your point on this forum - believe me it works !

Sandy will answer you back and you will answer him back and we will chirp in between and it might take 100 posts but I think you guys can sort things out before f...n lawyers make money out of one of you !

Sandy you are an elderly gentleman (see I was there) ;) and I am sure you do not need this cr@p in your life.

CFS has a name to protect and we can be judges and jury for you guys (I / ? we ) love it and have done this MANY times before ...

Shall we give it a try ?

Please ... :hmm:


PS: Sandy I clicked on your e-mail link the previous time and requested more info.
I did it again today - let us see if you get my mail.

CFI - Please mail me with all your details please as I have the task now of getting 6 oke's :} through you / 43 / whoever to PPL stage.

Cheers,

Gunnssss (Judge and Jury) :ouch:

[CFI-CFS]

I am not interested in holding a public debate on this forum. I have it on e-mail from Sandy that he would have been happy if he recieved the Bps 350 non refundable deposit back from Naunton Pugh. With afidavits from my staff and people on the same course, if Sandy wants to take this to court, Naunton Pugh will go in heavaly armed... The results of the claim will be posted here.

Sandy spent 15 days with Cape Flying Services, sucessfuly completed three exams and flew 36 odd hours, mostly dual. He was offered alternative accommodation, and even then we would have been happy to refund him the R35 per day he was paying for it. There are a number of very good places to stay in George.
The "serious incident" was a aircraft that went off the side of the runway onto the grass verge, there was no damage... At all! The relavent authorities where notified, however I was advised by the CAA that no incident report needed filing. The aircraft was flown back to George and the student has been given more dual instruction.

Regardless of whatever I write on this forum, like Sandy's post, it could be fact or fiction, as such, people who would like to find out the truth, should phone the number I posted above.

Gerald Todd

[NorthSouth]

No desire to get into the particulars of this one but here are one or two points for any of you out there thinking of embarking on flying training:

1. Any school which can give you 36 hours flying in 15 days is doing VERY well.

2. If you've never flown before, there is NO way ANYONE, least of all you, can predict how long it will take you to get a licence. Just because some people may have achieved a PPL in minimum hours in three weeks it doesn't mean you can. If you are determined to go abroad for only three weeks then do yourself a favour and take at least a couple of hours dual instruction at home before you go. It will give you some idea of your chances of completing in such a short time. At worst, it might show that you are NEVER capable of getting a licence. My view is that if it takes you more than 25 hours on a full-time course to go solo then you ought to think very hard about whether it's worth your while continuing.

3. How many times do people have to say this? DO NOT PAY THE FULL COURSE FEE UP FRONT!! Booking deposit, yes - and you should expect this to be non-refundable - but there is no need for companies to require full payment before you even get there.

[B Sousa]

I cant let Guns butt in here all by himself. besides he said there may, in the Future, going to be a Guns Junior as a Pilot........What is the world coming too.
Sounds like some unhappy folks at a Pilot Mill. Certainly two sides that will never agree. Sitting back I have seen a lot of folks who want to go from zero to ATP in a long weekend. It wont happen anytime soon. This guy is a zero timer and did 36 hours in 15 days. Thats a lot of time...In my non instructor mind a bit too much for one to really get any benefit other than Logged time. But his goal was to get this done ASAP.
I certainly think if he had taken a breather for a day or so and talked it over he would have walked out the door with a License instead of pissed off.
Accomodations?? Do you expect the Ritz?? Wait till one gets a job. Hell in Alaska I lived in a sod roofed hut for a while and that was WITH a license.
Im betting its a school atmosphere with a bunch of folks from different lifestyles....Not too distant from the Military where your all thrown in one basket and the ones who can handle it come out the other end as Pilots....
Total Immersion is sometimes the best way. You just have to go with the flow a bit more. Anyone can learn how to fly, I just prefer to fly with those who can deal with the stress.....
My Two Cents.

[sanjo69]

Hello to all,

Many thanks for your comments and time taken to respond to this post.

Perhaps, a minority of you are missing the point here?

This complaint is not directed at Cape Flying Services George, but, Mr Naunton Pugh, trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe). This is probably the accepted NORMAL PRACTICE (answers some points) within this type of flying school or maybe even throughout Africa or even the world, who knows?

Yes, it was quite correct that my experience was essentially based from a virgin prospective (guys, remember what these are!) that I could be duped into thinking that an experienced UK based aviation agent/ expert of a reputable flying school based in South Africa could persuade an inexperienced virgin potential pilot into thinking that a PPL could be obtained within 3 weeks. These are the facts, no question about it; the documents are available for perusal. Let’s face it; will you accept some kind of advice from one kind of professional source or another in our lives, answer, YES, what is different about aviation issues?

I as guided by the agent who is based in Cambridge, UK, that is, Mr Naunton Pugh, who incidentally happens to be the editor for International Flight Training News, probably and more than likely more involved in aviation than it appears to be, i.e., IFTNEWS.COM. Surprisingly enough, promotes this school for aviation training, well let’s face it, as a virgin pilot, it was very convincing.

Based on the facts that was provided I studied my ground school prior to my departure to South Africa expecting to achieve my PPL within my time period of 30th March till 17th April (at least 18 days available flying time), a very achievable goal, as per supplied literature.

To date, Mr Pugh, the UK based Agent has refused to discuss any issue raised either on this forum, correspondence (60 pages) or anything else for that matter. Mr Todd (CFI-CFS) at Cape Flying Services George does not appear in the equation as the full package was discussed, negotiated and executed by Mr Pugh, who is based in the UK;

Does he operate on his own or with Cape Flying Services George blessing, who knows?

Nobody expects that an aviation license could be justifiably issued over a weekend of training and indeed any one who thinks so, perhaps, should be committed to one of those special places. As an aviation enthusiast it is reasonable to assume that the process of learning doesn’t stop, even, when a PPL is issued. The package as sold by Mr Pugh was inclusive of a reasonable amount of costs in pursuit of an achievable PPL within the period of availability.

To answer the comments of NorthSouth
1. I agree, 36 hours flying time from any school in 15 days is good, but only, as an hour building exercise. I was and available to fly in George for almost 18 days not for an “hour building exercise” but as a structured AND personal course to complete the PPL as was stated in the contract with CFS (Europe), from scratch that is Mr Pugh. This course was for at least 45 hours flying time over my period at CFS in George to complete the PPL.

2. The important issue to understand that Mr Pugh sold a course to be completed within the specified period, he is the professional with all the knowledge and experience of this school, aviation and it’s practical issues, I was being guided by a so called professional. I could have been told it takes infinity to achieve the goal of a PPL, I quite honestly did not know, I was advised by Mr Pugh and for all intense purposes was totally blind to the fact. My naive ness may astound you but the issue was very convincing. I am not normally duped into this sort of situation at all. It is reasonable to say that Mr Pugh was fully in control of the situation. My PPL will require about 12- 15 hours flying time to complete in the UK, at a cost of about £2000.00, includes exams, medical etc, etc. This additional time was not available whilst I was in South Africa and no doubting my ability this PPL would have been achievable with some hard work and availability of an additional 7 days or so. Bear in mind that the course was supposedly structured to meet my needs for completion within the specified period of availability as per the contract and to which Mr Pugh was fully aware.

With respect to exceeding 25 hours dual training prior to solo status is concerned and the concept that achieving PPL status may not be achievable is total and absolute nonsense. No doubt, many top quality pilots achieve this status in excess of this limit and therefore become safer and more competent pilots, in particular, in my case, over 40 years old. This is a proven fact to my understanding.

Whilst I don’t have an issue with any instructor in particular, the issue of this school’s structure should surely be taken into consideration with respect of student ability. That is, non existent lectures, poor quality aircraft and accommodation, over subscription of students and perhaps more importantly, a totally non existent customer service policy.


3. I am not exactly qualified to give potential pilots advice, but, I agree, with hindsight, extreme care should be taken before entering to any agreement and that extreme caution, in particular when this school is concerned and any dealings with Mr Pugh, should be exercised PRIOR to handing over any money prior to services being provided. In this case the original demand for money was pure coincidence that is amounted to the same as the deposit and upon further investigation an overcharge on the invoice was found.

I agree the policy of pay as you fly should be insisted. To my understanding and to my further investigation upon my arrival back in the UK it is an accepted practice to pay as you fly within the UK.


Many thanks for B Sousa comments and in response


4. I was in George for at least and available to fly 18 days in total.

5. The reason I am not (politely) happy with Mr Pugh (Cape Flying Services (Europe) the UK based agent for Cape Flying Services based in George is that he was fully aware of my availability to be in South Africa. I was under no illusion that a lot of hard work was required, indeed, as stressed by Mr Pugh the only reason, other than the gods, for my failure to achieve a PPL within the time period was my lack of ground school preparation other than this, my course would be structured to meet my needs. This was his advertised words. Strangely, all the response and defence comes from Cape Flying Services South Africa. This maybe the normal practice of this school and its UK agent.


6. With respect, there is going with the flow and drowning in the “rip off” culture and I am afraid to say the latter prevails. The course was paid in £ sterling in the UK and discussion in SA Rand at the school. To be informed by the school “principal” that the course fee was undercharged by the agent is totally unacceptable and at best insulting. I am trying hard to accept that SA people are decent folk and that aviation folk are of a calibre to be respected. If I wanted to or was expected to live in an igloo, mud hut or reside in my motor vehicle for 18 days then at least I would have expected to have been told this at the beginning. A hostel based in the “old days” of South Africa was not expected by myself and NOT EVEN by the principles of the school.

Having spent at least 12 good years of my life living in South Africa I did not expect the absolute failure of this school to meet my expectations in all it’s advertised departments. The school and it’s UK based agent, Mr Pugh has not realised the damage it has caused to South African aviation and it’s training facilities. Lets face it when you expect a level of service you are very disappointed in failure, likewise, I am with Mr Pugh.

I am not exactly impressed with the Cape Flying Service School, in particular, nor do I winge about every little thing that really winds me up but what I am really hacked off about is the package that was sold to me and no doubt many others by Mr Pugh, it’s UK agent. Needless to say, Mr Pugh can expect a summons through his letter box as I am suing him for the full amount of my South African trip, a total of about £5000.00.

I have also an independent “observation” report from a fellow student who attended the course at the same time and fully confirms the events in my claim. The complaint is not what was received but what was sold, the difference is enormous.

So perhaps, according to Mr Pugh, until we meet in the High Court.(UK highest court)

Regards

Sandy

[bluesafrica]

Dear Sandy,
I think that you were mislead by Mr Plugh or by yourself to believe that you could do your PPL in 18 days. I think that it is practically impossible for any older than 18 year old youngster to learn up the required skills for PPL level in less than 6 weeks, MINIMUM. Unfortunately, older we get more difficult it will be to learn new tricks...and sometimes very difficult to accept...
I suggest that you accept that you were not able to learn fast enough and make a new trip with more time and enjoy the proper training without this kind of unrealistic time limits.
When I did my initial training we were using 4 months for the first 50 hours and I was 17! Sure sounded like there was lot of time wasted but it gave a good base for my future as a pilot. However, we were all able to solo under 10 hours!

Take your time and enjoy aviation and don´t waste your time and money in court rooms.
Best Regards,
Blues
:ok:

[sanjo69]

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT


As of 17th July 2003, Mr Naunton Pugh trading as, Cape Flying Services (Europe) the UK Cambridge based authorised Europe agent of Cape Flying Services based in George South Africa has been issued a Court Default Judgment in the Blackburn County Court UK (BB 301870 REFERS)

This successful claim for damages, included, the full costs of my course and travel expenses, resulting from my South African trip in April 2003, to attend a PPL course at CFS George. The course package was sold by Mr Pugh and was clearly provided not as advertised and was therefore misrepresented. The result of this action is that Mr Pugh is now personally responsible for this debt and until it is at least paid he may have great difficulty in obtaining future personal credit arrangements.

To my understanding Mr Pugh collects a so called “spotter commission” from the school when the student confirms the booking and then it appears he, as in my case, takes no further interest, irrespective what problems occur. The commission payment which is defined as a “non refundable deposit” in the course information is supplied by Mr Pugh. This practise is obviously wrong and unacceptable. Mr Pugh obviously has no method of verification what services are actually provided at the school or he merely condones whatever happens at the school by just collecting his commission and then rubs his hands of his responsibility.

Mr Pugh, indeed, as an experienced person within the aviation industry, should know better. Simply, he is the editor of the flight training magazine IFTNEWS.COM where he actively promotes aviation training worldwide, including this school. He is also known within the UK for various other aviation activities.

Arguably, moving on with my life will be easier once the full costs are received, however, further media coverage will continue to highlight this sort of unacceptable misrepresentation within the aviation industry and to help unsuspecting future aviation students from future parting with their hard earned money in the pursuit of their aviation dream.

Quite simply my advice to all prospective students:

DISCUSS, NEGOTIATE AND CONFIRM EVERY DETAIL WITH THE SCHOOL PRIOR TO SIGNING ANY CONTRACT.

DON’T PAY LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY UPFRONT, INSIST “PAY AS YOU FLY”

KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO GET FOR YOUR MONEY!

Regards and Best Wishes


Sandy Young

These comments are posted in the guest book of the Cape Flying Services website (www.flightschool.co.za) as I believe that it is in the public interest to take note and be aware of the situation. More than likely senior management of CFS will not want you to see them and may remove them when they become aware of the posting.

The posting of these comments or future reposting will be dated.

:ouch:

[Goffel]

Congrats Sandy for starting something and actually finishing it.

I have also had some training done by CFS about 15 years back,but can only say good things as they went out of their way to help me as another school that I was at went down the tubes.

For that I say thank you Gerald and Chancey (instruct then).

Yes,a lot of us do get burnt by either a school or an operater and then we moan blue murder,but yet none of us have the gannonies to do something about it.

Sandy has.

How many times have we bitched about salaries,and there is none of us who can say we have not done that as the salaries for pilots as professional people are disgustingly low,no matter how many hours one has.
But yet we still carry on flying for the same companies as we all know that some 2000 hrs youngster will do the job for half the money.

Sandy,you winged as you felt you had a reason,went ahead and won your case.
For that I salute you.(I think they call it principles).:E

[CFI-CFS]

Well I am suprised. I know for a fact that as I write Naunton Pugh has no knowledge of this and I cant help but notice that he wasnt given the opportunity to represent himself. Its a pity that Sandy didnt try take us on, this evil use of the legal system to have somone else pay for your flight training should not be allowed. We have the facts on hand and the people who were involved. Naunton Pugh, sitting on the other side of the World, markets us in good faith and does not lie, given his position he cant afford to. Cape Flying Services could not have done more for Sandy in the time given. I suported Naunton Pugh in his decision not to refund Sandy's non refundable deposit, he had no right to it. Now because of my belief in the legal system and in whats right and wrong, it seems an injustice may have been done.

Today Sandy continues to harass Cape Flying Services by trying to add his nasty post onto our students web site www.commercialpilot.org He contacted the SACAA, who supports us as a highly reputable flying school that has been operating in excess of 25 years, and has used this medium to try and discredit us. Its time Cape Flying Services got involved :(

I promise you Goffel this man should not be congratulated.

Gerald Todd

[Goffel]

Hi Gerald.

No I am not congratulating Sandy on his win over CFS,but over his beliefs.

I know that sounds double dutch,but as I said before I can only say good things about CFS as you helped me out when a certain school went loop de loop.(or the money went into the wrong pocket as the aeroplane was sold?).

What I am trying to put across is that so many of us bitch like stuffed hens but never do anything about it.

Whether Sandy was wrong or right is not an issue in what I am trying to say,but that he followed his beliefs,where so many of us bitch and do nothing about.

When I stayed in the digs,we had a double story house with a swimming pool and we were all transported to and from the house to the airport.(and for some of us dronkies from the train to home).
We also had a lot of ground school lectures and for some of the doff okes even extra lessons at no extra cost was provided at the house.
And you organised a lift to and from George to CT and back every w/e.(for free).

So you see I cannot say anything wrong about CFS.

It is unfortunate that Sandy is having a fight with your school or should I say one of your British agents and not one of the schools that actually deserve the fight.

Thanks.

[sanjo69]

CFI- CFS

It would be very easy to lose composure and fall into the points scoring scenario, but I think I have a little more intelligence and respect for this forum than to fall for the obvious temptation, however, I understand there may be a need to clarify certain points.

Naunton Pugh, Cape Flying Services including yourself or any other person you think may have had a vested interest has had more than enough time since my departure from South Africa in April this year to address any issue, justified or not and to deal with such issues in an appropriate and civilised manner. Indeed, I have in my possession a document dossier of about 60 pages of information, facts, correspondence, newspaper articles and other material relating to this whole sad affair.

The points of my case at this stage are not really relevant as you and Naunton Pugh clearly emphasised through the correspondence of one line responses to my comprehensive letters in April and May of this year. These letters have clearly put my points across but I was merely brushed aside as irrelevant. My personal meeting with you prior to leaving South Africa indicated a clear and dismissive attitude from yourself. Every reasonable effort was made by me to resolve the issue, through you personally and Naunton Pugh, as the person issuing the contract. Needless to say, all these efforts were made prior bringing this issue into the public domain.

Naunton Pugh was issued a warning on 26th June this year by the County Court that I wish to recover damages from him. He was sent the 60 page dossier and also given until 12th July 2003 to respond by issuing his defence. This date passed without a defence being entered and he was further issued a Default Judgment on 17th July 2003. He is/ was fully aware of the situation and was given the chance to come to court and argue his case; likewise I would have had the same opportunity. He chose to ignore the papers sent to him. This is the legal system in the UK that gives rights to persons who believe that they have been wronged by a person/ company who has supplied sub standard goods or services. My contract is with Naunton Pugh and thus my legal redress is with him, your authorised agent. Indeed, if the legal opportunities were with Cape Flying Services in George I would have without a shadow of doubt and using your words “taken you on” within the South African legal framework. Your terminology of the “evil use of the legal system” is at best insulting and derogatory to any civilised state.

We both live in a democracy where freedom of speech is upheld within the law. I chose; believe me, as a last resort the available legal system to redress the balance and for whatever arguable reason. Naunton Pugh had the chance to argue his point and did not choose to. I feel I have been treated unfairly by your organization and will use whatever legal means available to me to highlight this treatment and help to prevent further unsuspecting people from being unfairly treated, either by your organization or any other. Any issue I have mentioned in any media is not nasty, slanderous or libel but fact, including the Court Judgment against Naunton Pugh. It is not reasonable human behaviour to just accept that they have been wronged and just get on with it. I know there are other people out there who have had a great and worthwhile visit to your set up, however, there are other people just like me, but at least, I put my words to actions such as my strength of conviction. No doubt, over the past few months you have been putting your house in order, this is a positive situation arguably perhaps due to this issue being aired in open forums like this one.

[silverknapper]

Nice one sandy

I have seen a few people treated in a bad way by a flying school in SA, this should act as an inspiration to them. All too often people are promised the impossible to get them over to a school far away, only to find out it is impossible. And to be honest your situation was ludicrous, to be told you could get a PPL in 18 days beggars belief, I seem to remember the George weather being a bit unpredictable into the bargain. This agent obviously only cared about his commision. And to think he holds a 'respected' position in the flight training media. I sincerely hope this ruins him, it may make other 'agents' think twice before making wild promises.

[George Tower]

I just hope that a lot of prospective students read this public airing of dirty linen and then decide SA isn't the place for them. Its the nature of the world that these kind of disputes will occur in life and what saddens me at the end of the day is that the only winner is usually some shark of lawyer.


SA on the whole is a great place to learn to fly, the people are generally friendly and professional. CFS has been in business for years and you simply don't survive for years (as a private company) by shafting your clients. In Sandy's case may be CFS didn't quite perform to par but lets not tar flight training in SA with a negative brush.

I think George is on the whole a pretty decent environment to learn to fly. The town itself is dead if it's a party atmosphere you're looking for, but you've got Knysna and Plett to make up for it. It's not as windy as PE or as congested as CT. I'll admit that George has it's own weather (which has seen me spend a few unplanned nights in Oudtshoorn) but apart from that it's a decent place to learn to fly.

[prospector]

Sandy With your amount of life experience behind you I would have to believe that you were the author of your own problems. Surely no one could believe that getting any licence in such a short time span must be wishful thinking. An aptitude test would surely have been appropriate before committing that amount of funding up front. And taking 25 hours to solo would surely have shown up in any aptitude test that this was not a wise move.

Prospector

[Flying Bean]

I have been following this thread with interest.
As a resident of both UK and RSA I must take exception of the phrase "evil use of the legal sytem". In both countries the system is not perfect, but in UK it is a hell of a lot more perfect than in RSA.
I have no idea of who is actually right or wrong in this case, but Sandy seems to have followed the the legal grievance pathway correctly.
Pugh appears to be a high profile figure so I don't see how he could "have no knowledge of this" and not put a defence up in court. A default judgement was granted.

Finally I must agree with Goffel & Guns. To all you Wannabees- RSA is a great place to start your flying. 80% of the pilots I employ have moved through the flying schools in RSA. Don't be put off by this (relatively minor) spat, but do do your homework before parting with cash.:ok:

[whiskeyfour]

Shame on you George Tower for your slanderous comments on George being a dead town. Don't you know about the army ladies? Or what about the Herolds Bay Hotel? Well it was lively 15 years ago....:}

[CFI-CFS]

Last Monday the Court threw out the above Judgment, as it was obtained illegally.

[exjet]

Ok, so who won?

[CFI-CFS]

No one yet, however, regardless of what the Court rules, Cape Flying Services will have gained nothing by this.

Gerald Todd

[sanjo69]

I am surprised to see Mr Todd continuing to degrade the UK Court Sytem.

Let me explain the facts, On Monday 29th September 2003, Mr Pugh, the agent for CFS in the UK was sucessful in having the judgment set aside based on a technical "date of issue" point, it was not because it was issued illegally or that he doesnt have a case to answer but more perhaps a sign that the UK court system is more fairer contrary to some beliefs.

The full hearing is due to take place at the end of this month where both parties will be given the opportunity to present its case and leave the judge to make his final decision on the matter. Obviously this hearing will be time consuming, expensive and totally unecessary as in my opinion and to a greater extent very clear ( as day and night) that CFS (Europe) owes me money. The question is just how much!

As is well documented on this thread within this website this action had become necessary due to inability or willingness of Mr Pugh, either as an individual or joint with CFS, irrespective, and to resolve the matter.

As a further gesture of reconcilliation, Friday, Last week I have presented a fair and reasonable offer to Mr Pugh's lawyer, to resolve this issue thus preventing an expensive court hearing.

I am still awaiting a response from them, however, this case is still very much ongoing and very unfortunate for all concerned and at the end of it, to which I hope Mr Todd realises, there will be no winners !

regards

Sandy Young

[gary pols]

Stay away of Gerald Todd, unless you can agree with him to '' Pay as you Fly ''. Don't pay CFS, or any other Flightschool for this matter, more than 2000 Rand in advance !!

If you pay him ( or them ) more, he (or they) got you by the balls (male students only !!), which will hurt you 9 out of 10 times !!
I could not continue my Flight Training with CFS because my (positive !!!!!!) account balance got below 16.000 Rand !!!!!!

Together with this very disapointing experience and all kind of ''promises'' of co-piloting some Cargo Albatross........(.being a white guy with a Eurppean Passport........YEAH SURE..do you believe it ???????? ......... yeah, me idiot, I did then.
WE ALL TRY TO MAKE OUR DREAMS COME TRUE......RIGHT !! I decided to lick my ( financial)wounds and leave beautiful South Africa ( this is 1995 by the way..!!).. heading for Flight Safety Academy, Vero Beach, Florida, USA.

At this time I'am flying Corperate in the States, can't beat a Lear at 410 !!

Just wanted to share my experience with all of you who have to make a mayor discision in their young lives, which at the end of the day, might turn out to be a very important one!!
Says who ......??? A now 47 year old horses mouth out of an old CFS stable.

Gerald, I hope Sally and the kids are in good health, because besides of the fact that I think you should change your financial management(like I told you when I left) we had our good moments at the campfire !!!!
Please give them my regards !!

Take care everyone, Fly Safe ..!!

Gary Pols

[sanjo69]

Gary.........thanks for the time and effort to comment on this thread

it was very, very tempting but I decided to leave it !

However, it is very unfortunate that whilst there are many problems ocurring within the Flight training enviroment so few people have the gaul to expose it.

There are many people who have freely without prompting expressed personal dissatisfaction at his particular flying school.

In particular, when I was there and for whatever reason and you all know who you are !! I wish to say to them don't just talk or winge about it ! Do something about it ! I did and will see this through to it's right and correct conclusion, allbeit, it takes time, money and above all, patience.

Don't let the people concerned believe that they are untouchable and any better than you and me, the law is there in whatever country you reside, to protect you from enduring these sorts of practices, use the law!! Don't be a coward and keep quiet or simply walk away!!!

Point made ?

[sanjo69]

CFS COURT CASE UPDATE

Important information

It has been some time since the last posting on the saga so I thought I would give you an update on the current state of affairs relating to my court proceedings against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe). This matter does have and has created an enormous amount of public interest, no more so than by just the shear number of hits on this thread.

A full hearing of this matter took place at Cambridge County Court on 25th March 2004, nearly one year on since my visit to Cape Flying Services in George South Africa to undertake my PPL course.

This hearing was set to last 4 hours and it had taken nearly four hours to just establish who the contract was actually with and after resulting from careful and painstakingly perusal of all documents supplied by Mr Pugh. Bearing in mind that Mr Pugh has argued throughout and vigorously that the contract was not with him but with Gerald Todd in South Africa, that is, Cape Flying Services George CC. Fundamentally and most importantly the judge agreed with me, as I have always said, that the contract was indeed with Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not with South Africa and issued a “liability” judgment against the defendant.

So what does this mean: quite simply that any breach of contract, damages and costs possibly awarded to me at a later hearing will be borne solely by the defendant, Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not Cape Flying Services George CC. The details of this case are well documented and needless to say that there is a strong case for him to answer at the forthcoming hearing.

Also this judgment is important as it sets a precedent for all other students who booked their courses through the defendant, being based in Europe, in particular, UK based students and who may feel that they have a case against him that it is not necessary to travel back to South Africa and pursue their case in a South African court but they can pursue him in a European court for redress. It will also serve a warning to himself that he is responsible for ensuring that the services he advertises is in fact provided when he “sub contracts” it to Cape Flying Services George CC, irrespective of his business relationship with South Africa.

I have calculated that I have made at least 8 proposals to settle this matter without any counter offer from the defendant, he has colluded with Gerald Todd, concocted and continues to make serious personal and abusive attacks throughout this case that quite simply strikes at the heart of the integrity or professionalism of both the school and him. These stinging and slanderous comments will be made available to the court in due course to highlight the downright obstructive and venomous attitude. This case did not need to be pursued in the UK courts or in any court for that matter as it should have been dealt with long time ago. Both the defendant and Gerald Todd have forced me into this and I will see it through to its correct conclusion.

I will keep the forum up to date with the outcome.


Thank you,

Sandy Young

[Irish-guy27.5]

Congratulations Sandy
Well done for standing up for your rights as any self respecting human being would.Obviously the judge saw through the scam also.

[sam6]

sandy
im also worried that there are bad schools but nobody recognises that they are bad
maybe standards are so low here that they just cant see what is wrong
This is Africa and it is more African than before. Good in some ways but not for this school who are not keeping standards high level.
Aviation is a tricky business and standards have to be the same all over this world and cant drop like CFS has.
Very Good Luck to you.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I don't think this sam character and Sandy are the same bloke. Sandy sounds like a reasonable oke who took a bit of strain as opposed to sam who sounds like an uneducated child.

Spotcha around boet....

[sam6]

No childs here funny man

[sanjo69]

Many thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to this , as i understand, an important thread.

Some of the comments have been constructive whilst some others remain quite frankly, unecessary. I am not going to get into a long speech about the case but to say it is ongoing and will be pursued to it's rightful conclusion, sooner rather than later!

I will endevour to continue to give a full and objective update of the case to the forum as i am sure that there is some interesting relevant points still to be made regarding this matter


Regards

Sandy

[George Tower]

Sandy

As a fellow Mancunian I'm sure you're familiar with Coronation Street (for our colonial cousins that's a long running soap-opera set in Manchester). I'm sure Betty was referring to you when she utterred the words "more front than Blackpool!":mad:

I cannot comment on the allegations you have made against CFS and their agent in the UK, but I think the way that you have used this forum, and in light of what CFS actually did for you in the short time you were there is actually making you look like a pretty spoilt brat.

I believe that any one who expects to complete a PPL in a month is skating on thin ice. Not that it is not possible as that's what I did mine in, but it requires excellent weather, and no maintenance issues. As an aside don't you think these aircraft we train in are quite amazing. Designed in the 50s the majority are extremely reliable despite the fact that they are regularly "abused" on a daily basis.

Given that you have less than two hours solo to over thirty dual hours I would venture that you are not the next Chuck Yaeger. There is no disgrace in this but you have to be realistic in your expectations. I would be surprised if you polished the lot off in a fortnight.

I have no interest whatsoever in CFS but I feel that this negative publicity they are getting is a bit unfair. Having been in business myself I can safely say that they must be doing something right if they have been around all the years they have. For all you sceptics out there that is something to remember.

Sandy if it is your aim to fly predominantly in the UK then might I suggest not bothering with SA. It seems that you don't have the time to take and that doing any PPL rushed is not the best way forward. Why not train in the UK and do the whole thing at your leisure at say the Lancashire Aero Club at Barton.

To reduce the cost and bear in mind the Rand Pound exchange isn't as good as it was (may be that's why you want CFS to give you so much free), you might want to consider buying a share in an aircraft. Before you think I'm mad I was offered a 1/20 share in an IFR equipped Cessna 150 for £1300. Running costs were £40 per hour. Given that you could sell your share and not incur a loss this might be the way to go. Plus should you plan to fly in the UK you wont have to waste more money getting used to the airspace and RT differences.

Regards

GT

[CFI-CFS]

Neither Cape Flying Services or Naunton Pugh will be bullied into paying moneys we feel not due. Mr. Young has the legal system to protect him if he has a legitimate claim. Should the Court decide that we where in error in holding back the £350 ( non refundable deposit paid to Naunton Pugh ) and award it, then I could understand Mr. Young making a post.
I have attached the following for your perusal, here he acknowledges the damage his posts have done and tries to use PRUNNE as a lever to have us settle.

Mr Sandy Young :

A “posting” will be placed on the PPRUNE website under the “cape flying Services” heading indicating that all parties have agreed to settle the matter to mutual satisfaction or similar, the existing detailed problem comments can be deleted if required.

My experiences in South Africa and at Cape Flying Services still remain relatively pleasant as I have made some good friends and experienced the solo flying experience. It would be a great shame and should be unnecessary to tarnish these memories irrespective of the reasons. The contract issue and all its legalities would be discussed at a future date should this matter proceed further, if it is deemed necessary. It would also be potentially economically damaging for Cape Flying Services, George and Cape Flying Services (Europe)

In conclusion, I therefore, request that within 7 days of this letter £350.00, be paid to myself otherwise I will have no other option but to pursue this claim and seek the possibility of claiming the total refund of this course, damages, legal and other costs. No other correspondence will be entered into.


Total package for 25 hours dual, 15 hours solo and further 5 hours solo/ simulator with all inclusive package of £2895

Hours cost relative to package
25 hours dual = £1737.00 equals= £69.48/ hour
15 hours solo = £ 868.50 equals= £57.90/ hour
5 hours solo/ simulator= £ 289.50 equals=£57.90/ hour

Hours used

33.5 hours dual @ £69.48/ hour = £2327.58
1.6 hours solo @ £57.90/ hour = £ 92.64
total = £2420.22
Package price inclusive total = £2895.00
Difference total= £ 474.78


Paid by Cape Flying Services (SA Rand cheque @ R12/£1= R 1497.36) = £124.78

Balance owed to AW YOUNG = = £350.00





While his breakdown is totally wrong, and doesn’t acknowledge any expenses like books, CAA fees, Insurance, accommodation, lectures..etc. He does acknowledge that Cape Flying Services refunded him £124.78. We did this despite the fact that he booked for a whole course, and the allocated Instructor and aircraft where underutilized due to his leaving early. On numerous occasions Mr. Young has warned people not to pay up front, by all means one can do this, but don’t expect a school to commit to anything more than that which you paid. We committed to the hours Mr. Young paid for and despite his claim, worked very hard to give him 35.1 hours of flight training in 15 days……hardly a SCAM. On the Terms and Conditions form, signed by Mr. Young it states clearly that a £350.00 deposit is non refundable.



Mr Sandy Young :


My objectives are two fold, firstly, warning about this school and hopefully this is the platform to air these concerns, people to be careful when considering it for flight training and secondly if people are prepared to tell their "first hand" account of their story via email to me maybe we can stop this "burning" of well earned hard cash by people with an interest in furthering their aviation career, lets face it I just got burned for nearly £5000.00(3 weeks trip to South Africa and "training"), understanding and reasonable people would not be very happy about that.


The actual flying instruction at the school was carried out by dedicated, loyal and hardworking professional instructors.

I agree, 36 hours flying time from any school in 15 days is good, but only, as an hour building exercise. I was and available to fly in George for almost 18 days not for an “hour building exercise” but as a structured AND personal course to complete the PPL as was stated in the contract with CFS (Europe), from scratch that is Mr. Pugh. This course was for at least 45 hours flying time over my period at CFS in George to complete the PPL.



An “hour building exercise” ?? And then he post’s this :



Mr Sandy Young :

Give this Guy a Job !, he is worth it !
Dean was my instructor in George. Despite my many problems with the school and its UK based agent, I can certainly recommend Dean as a 1st class instructor.

He gets on well with his students, professional, has a great sense of humour (really, I know this is unusual for an instructor !), very experienced and above all gets the job done !!

He is certainly worth an interview with a first class company and no doubt will be a great asset to YOU !!!

Any personal references are welcomed, just PM or email me


Regards

sandy Young



I had no intention of posting a response to Sandy Young, however his posts have been damaging to Cape Flying Services, Naunton Pugh and myself. He claims to have tried to come to a settlement….here is an example.




Mr Sandy Young :

Dear Sirs
You are no doubt aware of the pending hearing to issue summary Judgment, in January 2004.
It is my intention to take this matter “all the way” due to the failed response to my many issues, however, it has always been an objective to reach some kind of resolution, if possible, at some stage, to avoid costly and time consuming court action. There is only one side of the parties willing to make any kind of proposal to resolve the problem and this is rather sad taking all the circumstances into consideration, I have already submitted a proposal to Naunton that was rejected.
Even at this late stage in the proceedings my door is open to a solution and I truly believe that a there is surely a workable solution to the benefit of all parties and this email is sent not as a “wind up” but perhaps an opportunity for us all to finally move on from this.
Bearing in mind that my student SA PPL expires in 6th April 2004, have 3 exams i.e. Nav, Met and Airframes to complete with around 15- 17 flying hours being required to finally complete the SA PPL. I would anticipate that the course could be completed in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days if you include the weekends. To complete the SA PPL has always been my objective when considering the trip in the first place to South Africa back in April 2003.
My proposal to resolve the issue is that you provide the following:
1. Return airline trip from Manchester to George with an acceptable route during perhaps Feb/ March 2004
2. Bed, breakfast an evening meal accommodation at an acceptable location for around 14 nights in George.
3. No more than 17 hours flying time, irrespective of solo or dual with perhaps JLF and all other costs associated with flying the aircraft for the purposes of completing the course any other flying hours required will be paid for by me at an agreed rate.
4. Providing any ground school or any other assistance that is normally required to assist me in completing the course including transport to the airfield and town as appropriate.
5. Completing the 3 remaining exams: Nav. Met and Airframes
6. £300 or R3000 cash to cover other costs that may occur during the trip payable upon acceptance.
The acceptance of this proposal and its agreed implementation will end all legal proceedings and action against you. Strange as it may sound I do not harbour any resentful feelings about returning to George, I will be there to do a job by completing the course and will assure you that this is my only intention.
I would be grateful for your comments as soon as possible.

Yours faithfully

Sandy Young


Come back and fly with us ???

After the last Court case ( Jan 2004 ), he said he would settle for this :

Mr Sandy Young :

The FINANCIAL proposal is NOT NEGOTIABLE AND FINAL quite simply-

• The full refund of £350 for flying hours not taken, as indicated in the diagram shown on item 4.
• The full refund of £100 overcharge as stated on the invoice.
• The full refund of £180 costs incurred for court proceedings and action taken within the UK.

Total: £630


I apologize for “hanging out our dirty washing” it’s pathetic and this is not the medium through which any legal reconciliation is likely to be met. Cape Flying Services will not refund on principal, and refuses to be blackmailed into doing so, no matter how paltry the sum.


Gerald Todd

[Gunship]

I apologize for “hanging out our dirty washing” it’s pathetic and this is not the medium through which any legal reconciliation is likely to be met. Cape Flying Services will not refund on principal, and refuses to be blackmailed into doing so, no matter how paltry the sum.


Gerald Todd

Gerald,

I see it as cleaning Sandy's dirty washing. :p

It is clear from these posts that he is the one loosing face. (Sorry if you lost business - but I am sure the "normal man" can see through this bichering - did I say bitching ? :uhoh:

Sandy, sorry mate this is not a personal attack but the ONLY posts you have ever made is too shoot down CFS (and so quite a lot of other 's too that posts ONE or two - never to be heard of again) .. we call them trolls ...

You have thrown the dirty washing - Gerald according to me has made his point - now can you post something that we can LEARN from your flying experiences ... uhmm I pressume you are a qualified CPL 4 holer at least by now - seeing that you have so much "bean counting experience" ...

Come on Sandy call it quits .. I will stick you for a pi55 up in London one day and you can tell me all these war stories while I look at the go - go girls :D

Have a good one now ..

Nag ou GROTE,

Gunsss

[Stassiebal]

Gunsss, give me a shout when you go for that pi55-up and I'll join you!

Deán

[Gunship]

LOL :D

I will Dean ! I need to clear this malaria - infected 115 kg again :D

[sanjo69]

I am not going to get drawn into personal "pont scoring" on this thread or matter.

The court has ruled that Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) is RESPONSIBLE for the contract and thus FULLY RESPONSIBLE for ensuring that the services and or goods as ADVERTISED as provided are to a standard as ADVERTISED.

This is I have stated my point all along and all concerned including Mr Todd and Mr Pugh are fully aware. For whatever justification or merit they both have ensured that this matter needed to be taken to test within the judicial system, here in the UK.

This point alone, argued without compromise, has enormous public interest within the UK/ SA training system, there are others out there who have suffered similiar circumstances and this court ruling enables them and future students "booking" through Mr Pugh to have the confidence that He ( Mr Pugh) alone has the RESPONSIBILITY of ensuring that all is provided as advertised irrespective of the "business relationship" that exists between both Mr Todd in George South Africa and Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) based within the UK

I am not going to "stoop" low, respond or justify my actions to anyone, within this forum that includes Mr Todd, who arguably, and without doubt is selective on his document releases within this forum. There is a mountain of documents relating to this matter, that I have in my possession that will paint a different picture. This is not the place to "air the dirty washing"

I suppose the real issue here, as is documentated within this thread, is that no one is supposed to complain about the services, justified or not, that is supposed to have or is provided by this school "booked" through Cape Flying Services (Europe) but merely expected to curle up your toes and run away with your tail between your legs and let another financially expensive "bad experience" go unquestioned.

The impending court case will decide on the further merits of my case and the results will be posted as promised.


Regards


Sandy

[Rhodie]

Ok Sandy..

Youv'e made your "pont".

Gunnss has had an excellent experience, you haven't.

Time now to "curle up all toes in your possession" and leave well enough alone.

Gerald - as soon as my daughter decides if she wants to be an avat, uh an avito, an avetor, oh heck - as soon as she decides if she wants to be a pilot, she is coming to you... :ok:

Cheers

R

[Irish-guy27.5]

to everyone reading this.
If your new to aviation then stay the hell away from cape flying services.Sandys experiences are all to familiar to a lot of people out there sadly they wont be aware of this forum.
I cant actually say that I have met anyone who has had a good experience there.

[Jacobest]

Hi Irish-guy27.5

My name is Jacobest. Pleased to meet you
Now that you have met me, you can say that you have, in fact, met someone who has had a good experience at CFS.

Have a NICE day

[126,7]

Jaco, **Next Time is scraping the bottom of the barrel, even for the likes of you! If you want to insult somebody on a public forum, come up with something original. And with that I don't mean "have you found your mountain yet?"

Keep trying boet, you'll get it right some day!

[Jacobest]

OK F.U.N.S.A. (let me know when you worked it out):ok:

[126,7]

He he he
Tks for the amusing posts Jaco. I am reasonably sure you didn't mean FUNSA (http://www.funsa.com) with your above statement. CMC dude.

[Jacobest]

:= :p :D :O :} LOL:ok:

[Staller]

This is my first posting.

I too encounted an 'experience' with CFS, however I am in two minds as to whether I should 'let sleeping dogs lie' or air my dirty laundry in public.

I am so incensed to learn of other peoples misfortune I feel the truth will surface.

Any suggestions?

[4HolerPoler]

Here we go again.

Go ahead Staller, but please include as many details, indicating whether your beef was with CFS or with their UK representative.

I cannot allow this to develop into a CFS-bashing exercise but if you had a bad experience you are more than entitled to air it here. Just keep it factual and hold back on the emotions.

4HP

[Stephen Stark]

I have been reading with much concern the posts that have been put here about Cape Flying Services. I did my CPL with them and it is not at all what has been put here. This period of my life was not only challenging, but also one of the most entertaining and pleasant that I have experienced. Sure, every organisation (especially aviation) has its issues and problems, but on the whole the operation is smooth and well run. I found in my time there that it was the students that either had not paid or that did not have the natural pilot ability that were the first to moan. From the day that I started until the day that I finished, Cape Flying Services was always prepared to help me out in any way that they could to ensure that my flying was accommodated, and that I was happy.

Furthermore, I have not seen such coagulation among a group since I left. The morale was high; the crowd good, the quality of training was excellent. My PPL and Night Rating instructor is one of the most dedicated people that I flew with, and my Twin and Instrument Rating instructor (who is the CEO) became my mentor even outside of the aviation arena. I enjoyed it so much I landed up working there and still am to this day, bringing my affiliation with the team up to 3 years. Going so well it is with them, that I am now a Grade II instructor, and have no intentions of leaving in the near future. It is quite rare to find such fraternisation in the aviation environment these days, but at this place there was plenty. People from all over the world joined Cape Flying Services to achieve the common goal of obtaining a licence or building some hours. The instilled traditions added so much character to the eminence of life in George, and I hope that it will continue to prevail as a well-established quality Flight Training Organisation.

[bluesafrica]

There you see it! Every penny has two sides!
Good to hear something else for the change.
Blues:ok:

[NauntonPugh]

Alexander Webster Young has now heard three different judges in UK courts all tell him that his overall county court claim against Cape Flying Services/Naunton Pugh (UK & Europe agent) is fatuous, but he is still persisting in continuing with his action, which is now part-heard. It goes back to court on 9 June, unless he changes his mind.

The crux of the matter is this: For how many hours flight training did he pay, how many did he receive and if he did not receive the full number he paid for, why did he not receive them? The issue then moves on to this: if he is owed any money, how much and by whom?

All the three judges have told him that this is the only area of contention that will be judged upon.

The course he paid for was a 45-hour course. He flew around 33 hours, taking 32 hours to go solo (when the average pilot takes around 12 - 15 - shows just how good a student pilot he was). He knew he had only three weeks to do the flying and ground school (most PPL students at CFS go for four weeks) but yet he absented himself from CFS for the last two days he was supposed to be with them, going instead to Cape Town.

But he still has his original full claim, for something over Sterling £4,600, in place, claiming for such things as a return flight, car hire, sustenance, time taken off work etc, although in the original letter he wrote about it he states that, so long as he gets his deposit of Sterling £350 back, then he would settle for that. The sticking point there is that, unless a student fails the aviation medical, then the deposit is non-returnable.

These are the basic facts on which the judge will be making judgment.

Leaving aside all the spleen and invective Mr Young has posted on pprune, how would you judge the situation?

Naunton Pugh

[sanjo69]

I was and am really excited to see Mr Pugh's first "ever" response to this thread on Pprune!

I am not going to get into a slanging match, reduce myself to the level nor do I wish to with either Mr Pugh or Cape Flying Services George but to merely say that the case is going to be heard on the 29th June 2004, postponed from 9th June due to District Judge commitments.

Needless to say, the UK court, proper and without question, in it's process and procedure will decide who and what is at fault, if any! on that day. I say today with full honesty and integrity that the truth will prevail and I am quite confident that only Mr Pugh or and both Mr Todd will be the one's with the "egg on their face"

A very simple and indeed easily solvable problem has become an uncontrollable one, indeed, damaging to the "reputation" of the Cape Flying Services "company". However, whatever way you argue either on it's merits or whatever Mr Pugh is the only person responsible for any damages or costs for BREACH OF CONTRACT THAT HAS OR MAY HAVE BEEN OCCURRED.

On a more general point, I am happy to see fellow ppruners freely expressing and being allowed to express themselves within this thread as surely any constructive comment regarding this school's dealings whetherinside South Africa or in particular within Europe will only encourage potential students to think twice before booking or and ensuring that the school or it's agent(s) really provide the services or and goods they say they are going to as advertised. Indeed this can only benefit South African aviation in general as foreign provider of training for European students.

This is a "mantle" I will carry for the immediate future and encourage other past students who "had a bad experience" to express it in this forum and thread because this just does not open up a "can of worms" for CFS but , in a wider scale, will expose the failure and duty of care of other South African flying School's to provide above the norm quality training to unsuspecting European aviation students, because, we all want to be given the best chance when we start out!

Regards and Best wishes


Sandy Young

[prospector]

Watching this thread with much interest. It would appear that the flying schools must start out behind the eight ball. They have to take on anyone that has the money to commence training, as against The Air Force who normally run a considerable number of tests to ascertain a persons ability to successfully complete the training.

One would have thought that sanjo69 would have done a little, or preferably a lot, of research before committing his money up front. To expect, at his age, starting from scratch, to complete a PPL in three to four weeks is being optomistic in the extreme.

To take someone younger, with a demonstrated ability to absorb the required theory knowledge, and and a proven capacity to absorb the motor skills required in the time frame stated would be ambitious.

The time taken to go solo alone would point to a lack of natural ability, and make the time scale given to complete this task, gaining a PPL, as completely unrealistic, despite what the sales people advise.

Prospector

[bluesafrica]

Dear Sanjo69,

Are you still flying or was this course your only approach to aviation?
For me it sounds like you have put your self for a very tight schedule down in South Africa. It sure usually takes far longer than 3 weeks to complete PPL. Maybe enough for a "topgun" but most of us require much more time to learn necessary skills.
Don't give up, keep flying and smiling!
Blues

[CFI-CFS]

Sandy wants to continue flying, with Cape Flying Services !! There is a problem though, he wants this.

Mr Sandy Young :


Bearing in mind that my student SA PPL expires in 6th April 2004, have 3 exams i.e. Nav, Met and Airframes to complete with around 15- 17 flying hours being required to finally complete the SA PPL. I would anticipate that the course could be completed in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days if you include the weekends. To complete the SA PPL has always been my objective when considering the trip in the first place to South Africa back in April 2003.
My proposal to resolve the issue is that you provide the following:
1. Return airline trip from Manchester to George with an acceptable route during perhaps Feb/ March 2004
2. Bed, breakfast an evening meal accommodation at an acceptable location for around 14 nights in George.
3. No more than 17 hours flying time, irrespective of solo or dual with perhaps JLF and all other costs associated with flying the aircraft for the purposes of completing the course any other flying hours required will be paid for by me at an agreed rate.
4. Providing any ground school or any other assistance that is normally required to assist me in completing the course including transport to the airfield and town as appropriate.
5. Completing the 3 remaining exams: Nav. Met and Airframes
6. £300 or R3000 cash to cover other costs that may occur during the trip payable upon acceptance. The acceptance of this proposal and its agreed implementation will end all legal proceedings and action against you. Strange as it may sound I do not harbour any resentful feelings about returning to George, I will be there to do a job by completing the course and will assure you that this is my only intention.
I would be grateful for your comments as soon as possible.

Yours faithfully

Sandy Young



To be covered by the £350 deposit we believe he is not entitled to.

Gerald Todd

[bluesafrica]

Well, I can see that there are much bigger problems than time only.......
Maybe some of us should stick to fishing as a hobby.
Blues



:uhoh:

[prospector]

Sounds like his primary employment is as a Govt Spin Doctor,

Maybe a course in harsh reality would be in order before another trip to SA.

Prospector

[PPRuNe Towers]

prospector and blues africa,

I'm writing because I'm sure your posts have produced a lot of nodding heads at your apparently wise words. I'm also stepping up to bat because of what could appear to be the instinctive defence of a part of South African aviation.

Folks from abroad wanting to learn can only get information from magazines and websites. Have a look at what they are reading. The marketing spin is all they have to go on. They don't know any wise, experienced people, they don't even know PPRuNe exists or the information they can get here.

All the wise words don't mean a thing if you criticise the inexperienced customer but don't say a word about the crap put out by the schools and agents.

I think your respect for schools in general is undeserved. They are the ones knowingly building unrealistic expectations amongst foreign sales prospects. The training schools in Florida and now SA are getting a desperate reputation for their marketing claims, hidden costs and use of commission based agents.

Eventually, and I actually mean now, good schools end up suffering just as much as the bad ones. This will go on for as long as experienced pilots never challenge the honesty and integrity of the marketing by schools. You guys are the problem for accepting the claims of 3 week courses from a position of knowledge, just shrugging your shoulders and crying caveat emptor to the naive and enthusiastic.

You don't put up with bull**** from GA operators and airlines because it effects you or your colleagues - you hammer them with the reality. However, not one word ever from an African about the schools specious claims, hidden charges and unrealistic suggestions.

When every ad for non UK schools filling the back of the magazines competes with the one next to it by making totally unrealistic claims it is the schools' problem and not the punters. Any other argument is fatuous. You in SA are compounding the problem by supporting schools. Read their marketing material before the kneejerk defence of South African schools.

Rob Lloyd

[prospector]

Sorry PPRuNe Towers, but I dont see anything in my post backing the schools, what I see is a person who is obviously well educated, has the time to shop around and who still gets sucked in.

If he was a youngster with little world experience then I would perhaps feel that your admonition carried some weight.

Prospector

[CFI-CFS]

I agree that any school that guaranties any licence in any period of time should be avoided. Cape Flying Services does not guarantee a licence and our agent is a person of integrity who holds a position in the aviation world that cannot afford to be compromised by misrepresentation. Sandy Young signed the following “Terms and Conditions” form, before leaving the UK. It’s not long, in English and exactly the same sized print:

I, the undersigned, hereby accept this quotation, subject to these terms and conditions. Deposit(s) are enclosed.

The Student :

1. Will present himself/herself for lectures and flight training at all reasonable times.
2. Will obey all statutory and local flying rules and conduct himself/herself in the best traditions of aviation.
3. Understands that every effort will be made to complete training on time, but Cape Flying Services George CC will not be held responsible for circumstance causing delays beyond their control
4. Agrees that in the event of the Student terminating the training prematurely or in the event of the agreement being cancelled by Cape Flying Services, George CC by reason of misconduct or breach of agreement by the student, any refunds will be at the sole discretion of Cape Flying Services, George CC
5. Understands that while Cape Flying Services George CC cannot guarantee that the Student will pass the written exams and flight tests, the Student will be given every professional assistance to achieve these goals.
6. Deposit(s) are non-refundable except in a case of a Student being found medically unfit.
No variation of this agreement will be binding upon the Student or Cape Flying Services, George CC unless reduced in writing and signed by both parties

If you read this thread in full, it’s obvious that we did our very best to try and service our side of the contract. Even then and despite the fact that Mr Young left early and declined to fly with the booked aircraft and Instructor, we refunded him everything he asked for except the non refundable deposit.

We are not a flying club, we run flying courses from PPL to Commercial. The student makes a booking and we commit the aircraft and staff to service it. We have trained many, hundreds of students to Private Pilot standard inside four weeks. We probably would have managed to complete Sandy Young in four weeks, if given the chance……but then there is no guarantee.

Gerald Todd

[bluesafrica]

PPrune Towers,

In my mail I say that 3 weeks is too short! Even 4 weeks sounds somewhat unrealisticly short for older than 25 to learn necessary skills.
I have no idea who sold the course for Mr Young with an idea that he can complete PPL even in shorter time. Maybe possible for a topgun but not for the every man from the street.
As I said in my posting.

What comes for my comments after I read his demans I still stand behind them.
Blues

[PPRuNe Towers]

Gerold,

I'm having a go at the pro's letting schools in SA away with an easy ride - something they won't allow any other aspect of African aviation get away with.

However, if you want to quote stuff at me let's have a look at these aspects of your marketing.

"Cape Flying Services initiated the three week Private Pilot License course in South Africa"

That's from the very first page of your website - stop playing with the word guaranteed. Stop dancing around with, 'less than 4 weeks.' That's what the web sites fires straight off with. Three Weeks No if's no buts it says three weeks on the tin.

Next: What type and class of medical are people arriving back in the UK with? Your site glosses over that and we are presently having serious problems with folks arriving back in the UK with class 3 medicals and an ICAO licence. This is not kosher so why isn't your marketing material clear?

RT exam - what exactly are potential customers getting and is it usable in JAA countries?

The licence itself - what is it? Why doesn't it make it clear what the licence is in international law? The pros here have enough troubles with international licences, equivalancies and validations - why can't you tell punters what their licences are in the world generally and within the JAA context particularly? You wouldn't have those foreign based agents if you weren't aiming at foreign customers would you? If you have a UK agent you are selling to the UK. Why no information on what the licence is and what it can be used for in the UK and whether it can be used in Europe or whether it can be used to gain further ratings at home?

Or a JAA CPL.

Or an ATPL.

Or even an Instrument Rating because of our lousy wx.

Pricing? Why no straightforward pricing information - in fact no pricing information at all - not one whit. Is this to ensure force feeding them through the foreign, commission based agents and the territory they cover? In the English speaking world with cheap international calling, the internet and faxes what function do such agents serve? This information is simple, straightforward and basic - surely it is wasting the valuable time of your agents by not having the information on your website. Or is that the most important part of their sales pitch???

Conclusion - if you indeed are amongst the very best in SA but a punter can't get a price, the type of medical they get, the validity of the RT licence they receive, the type of PPL and its limitations in Europe from your marketing what hope is there?

Still, at least they know from the first page they can do a PPL in 3 weeks.

Sir, you and your agent doth protest too much. Course duration, medical, licence, RT licence and pricing - vaque, inaccurate or impossible to determine from your prime marketing material.

Sandy may not be everyone's cup of tea but sometimes it takes a pedantic and obstinate pain in the arse to get a bit of clarity in the seedy world of training because you are all at it.

Here's a marketing first - tell people the truth. Tell them the truth. We got 70+ thousand signed up and just as many independent readers by puncturing the crap. Why don't you take the time to match your personal reputation with what you put on your internet site and advertising. You might find you join the select superschools in the UK and the States whose advertising need only consist of a current phone number. Year after year, whatever the state of the market or exchange rate.

Rob Lloyd

[bluesafrica]

Well, I haven't seen CFS's advertisement. It is totally unrealistic to market a PPL course for 3 weeks. I agree with you that all marketing MUST be based for the facts and reality. Most countries you do need longer than that for the driving licence...

Secondly I agree that full information of licence validity and acceptance by authorities like JAA must be clearly printed out as well as total cost of such training.

I am sure that "normal marketing" can be very misleading. Same time I am surprised if adult individuals are buying in for such dream. One should obviously get more information from real requirements and expenses involved and not only to look cheapest possible deal!
Blues

PS. PPrune Tower, thanks for the eye opening...

[CFI-CFS]

Rob

The reason for posting our Terms and Conditions was to show that Sandy Young was not guaranteed a licence, however we did undertake to do our best to get him done within three to four weeks. Even Sandy Young, a below average student, having been with us and knowing that he needed longer than the norm, was confident that he could achieve 17 hours “in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days”… his words, not mine. We try and average two hours a day, and the students are at the school from 8am to 5pm everyday except Saturday afternoons and Sundays, if we have had a poor week, we work on Sundays to.

The problems with the South African Medical and the other issues you have mentioned regarding the licence we offer, I will take up with Naunton Pugh. He is at the leading edge of British flight training and has a sound knowledge of what is required and what not. No one, not one student has come back to me with any of the problems you mention. I realize that this doesn’t necessarily mean they are not there, however I have students flying in the UK with nothing more than a check ride after completing with us.

I will take a look at our web site, consider your suggestions, and if I feel that our clients would be better served by including any of the information you mention, it will be adjusted.

Gerald Todd

[Stephen Stark]

I am going to go even further and say that we have trained many pilots within that period, with some days of IMC. Imagine that, if an instructor gets a dedicated student who does have some sort of talent, he or she can complete in three weeks... Notwithstanding that, even more of them complete in four weeks, which is half the time that many would complete their course in. So why would something that we have done time and time again, with many pilots (up to and including the time of my affiliation) not be advertised on the main marketing medium, the website? Should it be that just because some people cannot complete in such time periods due to lack of talent and or dedication it should not be advertised? It is truely incredible that such information is being falsified in this medium by people who have no clue what we are about and have had no association with the flying school whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the CFI is so confident in his organisation that he even published on this site a telephone number that is accessed by our clientele, so it could be heard from the students themselves, yet this opportunity was surpassed.


Here's a marketing first - tell people the truth. Tell them the truth.


There you have it, from one who read all the marketing and had the time of my life.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Stephen,

Missing the point or attempted misdirection?

The pros here know all about licence, medical validity and rating issues as they move around the world.

They can look at the site themselves.

It specifically targets foriegn trainees. Trainees from Jar/Easa countries - err, and Nepal..... Single rules coverage for 400 million potential customers rather than SA's slightly smaller population.

It specifically avoids, ducks and glosses over every single issue facing a pilot moving between countries.

It avoids any mention of price, medical certificate standards and the renewal of the medical to maintain an SA licence from within another country.

It ignores validity of ratings, licence coverage, future ratings and extension of that licence in another country. Renewal and maintaining the validity of that licence to fly while on another continent is also studiously ignored on this site and those of other schools in SA.

It avoids the issues of what registration/flag a PPL can fly within their own country and differences/problems faced if they want to fly an aircraft into another neigbouring country.

In the UK context the most valuable safety progression for most PPL's is a basic intrument flying qualification. Why doesn't the website make clear whether this is a future possibility for a pilot training at Cape? Is a pilot actually prevented from gaining further safety based ratings to combat our weather?

This is an international site for pilots worldwide.

We are discussing a school specifically targeting Euro clients as do many others in SA.

The professional pilots here know exactly what I'm talking about - it's their bread and butter, each of them knowing someone who made a decision regarding licencing that blew up, very expensively, in their faces.

Marketing for South African schools is reliant on the stupid and naive.

Simple question Stephen - would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?

Yeah, I know. It must be so satisfying knowing you got the basic qualification for a lifelong hobby or even profession in three weeks. Still, as long as we've got the important stuff nailed down hey Stephen?

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[sanjo69]

Many thanks to all for the responses, including "Big G"

Let me make it quite clear from the outset, as I have always done, that this thread is NOT intended at Mr Todd, Cape Flying Services George or anyone associated with it in South Africa because the main point all along, correctly and rightly argued and indeed NOW assertained by a UK court is that Mr Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services ( Europe) is the ONLY person responsible for any contract that exists for the PPL course attended because he and I enterered into an agreement, notwithstanding, all the information was provided SOLELY by him in his own company headed literature, for him to provide certain services or goods, this, despite stubborn and unwarranted defence from Mr Pugh and indeed Mr Todd have defended until the "cows have come home", that South Africa is the only provider of the services or and goods.

Well, we can argue this point alone, but I will leave it for another day ( I promise) the assertion and perception is quite different from what is being explained within this thread.

To date, despite all the comments in this thread, let me remind you that the court case does not solely rest on the fact that despite it being well advertised by the "CFS Group" that a PPL can be obtiained within 3 weeks, this is not the case.

This is fundemental and vitally important for all readers as this is, as the other side may want you to believe, the main bone of contention ,as, my integrity, capabilities and reputation are in question. The spin from the other side is absolutely frightening and in all honesty they know the simple facts of this case, let me remind you just some of them, without predjudice, flying hours not taken but paid, accomodation not as described, ground school not as advertised, £100 overcharge on the invoice etc etc.

The other side want you to argue the case on "selective information" being made available within the public domain but as correctly and without bias the UK court system has now agreed that any failure or fault, irrespective, is and can now be handled within the UK, Readers, we dont have long to wait to know the outcome.

Interestingly and with deep concern, there are numerous questions remaining unanswered and not that I am prepared to discuss at this stage, more importantly, irrespective of the final result, indeed, I will post the result and explanation on this thread, with a full and frank explanation and if needed to be, post and unreserved apology to all concerned.

I will not bow to any kind of pressure to withdraw this thread because I believe that the thread is only going to be good for all concerned within the CFS flag, South African aviation and all potential aviation students visiting (the great and beautiful) country of South Africa, correctly pointed out to us by "G"

Regards

Sandy Young

[Stephen Stark]

Dear Rob

This is your little kingdom - I suppose you can pretty much say and do what you like.

Stephen

[PPRuNe Towers]

Stephen,

What I write isn't in itself significant. However, I have worked with pilots from SA and Zim for many years. The one thing you can never claim about them is shyness - holding back with their opinions. Compared to Brits they are brutally frank.

Therefore what is significant since I stepped in on this thread is the silence from the professional aviators and, even more importantly, the complete lack of rebutal from the entire SA training industry.

Am I making myself clear? - they haven't stepped up and said I'm spouting bollocks.

I'm guessing that they are hoping I'll simply go away and won't get around to mentioning the issue of type ratings. A foreigner, let's say trained on a Cessna 152, being sent home with an SA licence and having absolutely no idea that they have to be examined by an SA trained and qualified instructor/examiner before they can fly a 150, a Cherokee, a 172 or any other simple light aircraft in their own country. Extremely difficult in the UK and downright impossible in the majority of JAA countries. Additionally, the fact, and it is a fact, that they are not allowed to fly a British aircraft outside the UK with an SA licence seems to have completely bypassed the oxygen of publicity - or your schools' websites and adverts.

Hourbuilding? Couldn't recommend SA highly enough - absolutely outstanding and makes flogging around the skies of Forida clearly abject, mind numbing nonsense. Formal training courses - major problems though. The schools that face up and tell the truth are going to be the winners.

Therefore, I really would appreciate anyone in SA answering the question I posed Stephen - I mean it. I have made a series of allegations and, at the moment, your whole training industry are whistling, shuffling and staring at their shoes. so here it is again:

"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"

Regards to all,
rob

[Shandy]

Hi Guys,

Just to make it clear, I've only followed the last page of this thread, but I'm rather keen to reply to Rob's question. I have never had any dealings with Cape Flying Services, so no comment there.

However, when I decided I wanted to do this flying thing as my career, we shopped around. Shopping around is what everybody does in our industry.

When last did you hear a passenger say ... "I picked XXX Airline because they have a fantstic safety record?!?!" Unless your company is paying or your one of the mega wealthy, then you fly on price.

Getting back to the point, it never crossed our minds to go to another country, purely because it was much more expensive.

Why then do the European guys want to train in South Africa? Is it price based or because we have such a fantastic history of training?

If you can't get simple answers about your training from the flight school, or licence details from your local CAA, then find another school ... maybe one nearer home.

S.

[Jacobest]

It seems that a lot of people are having a problem with this three week course. All I can say is that not only is it possible, but doable. I did it(not blowing my own trumpet), not only that I also did my night rating at the same time. And the School, CAPE FLYING SERVICES.
If you focus and if you are really dedicated, anything is possible.
Gerald, maybe you must remove the three week thing from your advertising if people moan so much.:ok:

[CFI-CFS]

Rob

"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"

This is why we have an agent, not just any agent, but one that is in the know. Someone that has been to Cape Flying Services and is up to date with any changes regarding local rules. He can point a student towards a local flying school after completing with us, where to do a South African CAA recognized medical, flight renewal, visa applications and even organize student loans. He provides Cape Flying Services with a local persona and far more integrity than some web page ever could.

Now can you point me to a British Flying School’s web page that shows what I would require should I decide as a noobie, to do my licence in England and want to come back to South Africa?

Oh, and you do know that Sandy Young is a South African…..right ?

Gerald Todd

Jaco do me a favor, please copy your post to where I started a new thread.

I am also going to check your file
:} !!!!!

Best regards
Gerald

[Irv]

A foreigner, let's say trained on a Cessna 152, being sent home with an SA licence and having absolutely no idea that they have to be examined by an SA trained and qualified instructor/examiner before they can fly a 150, a Cherokee, a 172 or any other simple light aircraft in their own country.

Just to clarify - the new pilot could fly a 152 in the UK. (Someone managed to misunderstand that quote and got worried!)

One other actual existing problem at the UK end is that one or two UK rental organisations, used to dealing with JAA and FAA licences and 'SEP' legal classes actually convince the new PPL that they can do a type conversion for him/her, not realising that any future incident might have insurance problems when the SA CAA ask 'why was he flying a PA28? - of course, until an incident, everyone happy in ignorance!

[George Tower]

I just want to make another point but isn't the issue between CFS and their UK agent the subject of current legal proceedings. I find it most abnormal for a plaintiff to initiate a running commentry on all that is happening. I recall that a case was thrown out of court when a national newspaper made some unsubstantiated claims re. Leeds United footballers. I know that this is a civil action but even so views expressed here could prejudice the findings of a court.

If so what will happen if Sandy loses his claim for damages? Do Cape Flying Services not have grounds for any counter action given that this thread could be in effect tarnishing their reputation?

[ALGOA-SA]

"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"

This was the question posed by Rob in his posting above.

I work for a school in SA, other than CFS and have to agree that the answer would be no to the above. I would have to equally disagree that all schools do not answer such questions or give advice on the questions posed. All SA schools cannot be lumped together as doing the same.

Our website has a specific page dedicated to UK and Irish students, giving information on just such questions. All these students are also given contact names of past students who they are free to contact directly for information on their experiences training with us or on joining a club in the UK and further flying there. They are also, very importantly, put in touch with Irv Lee based at Popham in the UK, and directed to his website. Irv is in no way an agent for us nor does he receive any commission from us whatsoever. He is however an enormous font of knowledge for prospective students on the do's and don'ts of flying in SA and the UK.

Our courses can be structured so that a PPL (and CPL) can return to the UK with more than one type on his licence. Irv can do further type ratings for them, on their SA PPL, in G registered aircraft. He can also do their PPL renewals for them and there are doctors in the UK approved to do their SA medicals. They can thus continue to fly in the UK on their SA PPL for as long as they keep it valid. Negotiations are under way to get approval for SA PPLs to fly to France and if this is successful, it will hopefully be extended to other European countries.

All your questions asked above are answered either by us or Irv if the student contacts us or him. Prices are not included in the website purely because we do not have one specific option for a course eg a PPL can fly different types, have different accommodation etc. Detailed prices are supplied immediately on request by whatever means. We ask that 5 weeks be made available for PPL course completion, as 3 weeks is certainly not the norm. It is not possible to answer questions for all students from a number of countries on the website so students from countries other than the UK or Ireland are also given contact details or information when we have been able to obtain it, for the CAA equivalent in their own country to get advice on what they have to do on their return to their own country with an SA PPL.

By the way, we do not advertise in magazines and we are a non-profit Club with a proud history of training for almost 50 years.

[NauntonPugh]

Note to the moderator of this site:

Earlier this week I posed a non-inflamatory reply to Mr Young's libellous statements regarding his flight tuition at Cape Flying Services but this has not appeared on the site.

Is this a case of bias? Why should a response from the party being libelled not be admitted?

It is only fair that some sort of rational response to Mr Young's inaccurate rantings - many of which are figments of his imagination - should be allowed, so that anyone visiting the site can make up their own minds on the issue.

I therefore look forward to seeing my response posted on this site, as soon as possible.

Naunton Pugh

[4HolerPoler]

Mr. Pugh, if you click back to page 4 of this thread, you'll find your post in the middle of the page. This site strongly supports the equal submission of as many points-of-view as possible and your contribution is welcomed. The only reason that a post would be removed or altered is if it is clearly offensive or likely to bring the owner or administrator of this site into disrepute or negative legal action.

4HP

[Staller]

I said some time ago I had an experience with CFS.

Upon posting this it will reveal my identify to the parties involved.

It is my request however my identity remain private. Whether this request is adhered to be the 3rd parties is to be seen.

I will first post the factual data so that you can see the full picture. I will then follow up with my own interpretation of events.

Here is how it went,

CFS-STALLER email

We have worked out the following amount as being due:

3.5 Hours Dual Flying @ R664.00 p/hr.......................................
R 2324.00

19 Days accommodation in the Crew House @ R35.00 p/day....... R 665.00

Total amount due R 2989.00

Please pay this direct into our Account

Cape Flying Services, Embank, George, South Africa. Account no :
##########. Swift Code NEDSZAJJ. Sort Code: ########

Kind regards CFS-CFI

Staller-CFS

Dear CFS-CFI,

Firstly, I would like you thank you and your team (Mirana, Gerald M, and especially Dean) for your help in my achieving a PPL. Admittedly it was not as smooth as it could have been but the result was the same. I am in receipt of your email regarding the outstanding fees and would like to notify you that I have today paid into your account a sum equivalent to 2779 rand and not 2989 rand as you calculated. The reason being that according to my brochure I was entitled to Four weeks accommodation (28days), which meant I overstayed 13 nights and not 19 as you stated, therefore I deducted 6 (days) x 35rand totalling 210rand from your total, I trust this is adequate.

I would however, like to express my dismay at being additionally charged any amount after the problems encountered during my stay, you know as well as I that a PPL in FOUR weeks during the winter months in George with 2 available aircraft is by no means possible, had I been told this before I left I would have accommodated accordingly, time wise and financially. Time aside, I believe that had I been able to continue flying ZS-NRY throughout and not convert to ZS-JLF towards the end of the course I would have completed much closer if not on 45 hours as opposed to the 48.5, which I’m sure is still no disgrace.

I have paid you the extra charges as I realize that you will hold my papers and prevent me gaining the license but I am still disappointed overall by the way that they came about.

I hope very much to return to CFS before the year is out with £3000 to spend, could you tell me what would be my best options presuming that I had not progressed past my current PPL stage.

Yours Sincerely,

The reply to this was

" if you dont like it go elsewhere" or very similar wording.

Secondly,

STALLER-NP

Dear NP,

I write to you to confirm I have returned from George on Tuesday successfully completing my JAA PPL course, I had an excellent time if not slightly lengthy but never the less I managed to achieve what I had intended.

I do however have some feedback for you, most importantly from my point of view an issue of finances. If you can recall just prior to my departure in May I spoke to you over the telephone regarding my concern of carrying a large sum, namely the £2545 outstanding balance of the course upon my person to George. My specific question to you was asking if Cape Flying Services had facilities for a VISA CARD transaction at the school, namely a CCD (CREDIT CARD DEPOSIT) machine to which you most definitely replied yes, therefore under your advice I refrained from withdrawing any sum of money other than my personal allowance.

Upon arrival at George I was greeted by a representative of CFS and taken to the school to complete the necessary paperwork, of course, in this period I was approached about payment and produced my VISA card in preparation of payment, it was then I was told by Marana the secretary that they had never had such facilities to pay directly by any card, let alone VISA, the worldwide standard card issuer. I was then left with only option of payment, which was to visit a bank and withdraw the cash and pay CFS with cash, here are the figures listed below,

05th May 2002

Nedbank exchange rate of 14.89 RAND = £1 as confirmed

VISA card withdrawal of equivalent £2545 (course price of £2895 -£350 deposit to yourself) = 379000 RAND, PAID INTO THE ACCOUNT OF CAPE FLYING SERVICES.

Therefore, I had paid the complete balance of the course £2895.

However, upon checking my account a few days later, I see the 37900 RAND withdrawal has equated to £2628.48 which is the £2545 plus additional Nedbank charges of £78:53 and VISA fee of £4:95
TOTALLING £83:48 more than I should have paid.

It is not the fact that I believe you misled me that really concerns me, it is the fact that had you advised me with the REAL situation, I would have proceeded to travel with £2545 and therefore would have incurred no charges whatsoever as that was the outstanding balance due. I have consulted with GT who advises me to conclude this issue with you, I have also spoken with Barclays Bank Ltd, whom my account is with and have evidence to confirm these figures.

I believe that it be just and fair that you refund the overcharge of £83:48 as a matter of decency and goodwill.

I hope we can resolve this matter without further issue.

Yours Sincerely

To which no settlement was ever agreed, because it became a case of neither GT OR NP accepting the blame.

Your questions are welcome, no doubt they will be of mixed thoughts!

Staller:confused: :confused:

[Longdrop]

Staller

So you paid CFS what you where quoted using your Visa Card, then charged £83:48 for the use of this service, which you want CFS or NP to pay back…that right ?

[CFI-CFS]

Staller please e-mail me, perhaps we can still resolve things, on the face of it this seems so silly, though I can’t remember what made me so angry.
Gerald Todd

[Gunship]

Dear Mr Todd,

You succesfully gave 5 out of 6 students that we send to you a PPL.

We clearly told you only three will make it :\

Now I have to teach 5 to fly helicopters. They also say "goeie more" "hoe gaan dit " etc ...

They love pap and hate rice.

They want to go back for CPL's at their own cost.

I send you my invoice as soon as possible but it will be Le 1 000.000. 00

You can pay it in installments as at today's sexchange it will work out at $ 445.00 We also charge VAT here but because they brought pap with them and a Hustler mag for me - forget about that.

So you are a bad, sad person and we all hate you :p

[Gunship]

Oh and AO said you owe him $25 as he had side bets he will not make the course but you bad people passed him :} :} :}

Eischhh life is so bad ...

PS: How is the weather - we have serious thunderstorms now and our "poor" Alouette had a booster Pump failure - first one I have ever ehard of in 25 years.

Take care.

Vivaaaa CFS :E

Yes Naughty Naughtona and Sanjo they pay me to say this ... can I send you my banking details ??? :p

[CFI-CFS]

Hiya Gunns

Not going to post or probably even open this site again, unfortunately it provides a medium that can be abused by any individual to discredit whoever they like with very little, if any, recourse….even some twit that wants us to pay for an international credit card transaction. I won’t disclose his name, however the only reason I can think of as to why he may not want it mentioned, is that he ripped someone else that allowed him to fly into credit, and didn’t retain the paperwork.

I have a video of the course and a watch that belongs to one of the guys, together with AO and Philip’s licence, let me know via e-mail where I should send the stuff. Perhaps I should drop it at home, I have to pop by sometime soon…………..and scotch or two might be in order :E

Gerald

[Gunship]

Please do not leave us but if I where you I would also let the twits and twats post what they want and ignore them on an open forum.

I personally also think it has gone too far.

If a guy can not mail - phone you personally - let him fly away .. ;) Eischh that was nicely said :p

Good Luck with your great Flying School and I will mail you on your questions.

Cheers,

Gunnzzz (PS: God Willing : Home 30 June to 8 Aug ) ;)

[Staller]

posted 27th May 2004 21:53

"Staller please e-mail me, perhaps we can still resolve things, on the face of it this seems so silly, though I can’t remember what made me so angry.
Gerald Todd"

posted 29th May 2004 15:56 extract

"even some twit that wants us to pay for an international credit card transaction. I won’t disclose his name, however the only reason I can think of as to why he may not want it mentioned, is that he ripped someone else that allowed him to fly into credit, and didn’t retain the paperwork."

For all concerned my name is
Lee Gearing I have nothing to hide.

I believe Mr.Todd you have just shown your true backstabbing colours!!!!

A real life Jekyll and Hyde character!

:}

[sanjo69]

To Guns, with 1477 posts maybe it is expected that you should know better and expected to be impartial ( if you can) than to get drawn into the nuts and bolts of this particular topic or case!

There is a lot more going on with this (legal) case than has already been divulged to this forum or this thread, these matters, or certainly my side, will be fully presented to this forum when and only when the time is right and not before the legal case between myself and Mr Pugh has been concluded in due course and this case is due to be heard in Pterborough County Court on 29th June 2004.

Further, there is no legal argument or at least I can see no reason, for any party to use any comment placed within this forum to use to his advantage, other than for the good of South African aviation in general, in any legal matter either ongoing or potential future legal proceedings, either against, CFS South Africa or/ and Mr Pugh t/a CFS (Europe) as each case will be treated solely on it's own merits within the appropriate court as is the case for any democracy.

My case has or allegedly has it's own merits that will be argued upon when the time is right, irrespective of whatever comments used.

I am keenly watching, like others, with great interest the general agruments presented before this forum.


Regards,

Sandy

[Staller]

Hear Hear!
Well said

[Gunship]

To sanjo69 (with 27 posts) of which not ONE post has anything positive to do with flying .. If I had 27 posts (or 7 for that matter Staller) ... I would take a deep hard look at myself to what I have done for PPRUNE ... For you two ... sadly NOTHING !

So put your Posts where it counts (when someone can learn from it and not the negative derogative rubbish you dream up.

Staller .. me and Gerald Todd the same man ... you are a sick individuel to think that out :E

Come and show your face at the PPRUNE party and you can throw banter as you wish ... ask the 20 odd guys that I have met at the PPRUNE party who is Gunns and who is Gerald Todd ... shame ..

Cheers,

Case close (for me anyhow - and ignore mode on this thread).

[Staller]

I seriously think Gunship and CFI-CFS are one in the same!

By your very name, Attack seems your best defence.

[Rhodie]

Mr.
Do us a favour - do NOT think your failed renewal and time on a C150, plus a ride in a Dak qualifies you to make statements on other peoples characters.

Maybe you should take note of the "Gunss" and leave well enough alone..:ouch:

Gunss - the word "Troll" springs to mind... (again). :mad:

R

[George Tower]

A few more words spring to mind as well:mad:

Like I have said before I think this forum needs a thread where all the facts about training in South Africa are presented in an impartial fashion to prevent the knee jerk reactions most people will naturally be drawn into when reading some of the comments on here.

[4HolerPoler]

GT if this forum were to have a thread where impartial views on any subject were aired (just how you're going to ascertain or verify "impartial" I'm not too sure) then we'd be remiss in forgetting the true nature of this site - it's a rumour network and all views are welcome. Just don't take what you read as verbatim.

4HP

[sanjo69]

I had started writing a long response but decided after much thought to respond by using the following quote!

If I had placed only one thread on PPrune, ever, even just to highlight the problem with Cape Flying Services (Europe) and it's business "relationship" with Mr Todd in South Africa then I strongly consider that this posting within this forum would be regarded as a quality posting that is confirmed by some of the replies, notwithstanding, the amount of fellow ppruners who have visited it so far.


Regards

Sandy

[Staller]

Dear Rhodie and George Tower (are you really from the atc George???)

Spit your words out by all means!!

"Do us a favour - do NOT think your failed renewal and time on a C150, plus a ride in a Dak qualifies you to make statements on other peoples characters."

For your info my license is current and I am rated on several piston aircraft, nr, twin rt, and the DC3 rating to follow at some stage, with ATPL exams underway. I achieved this with a very reputable school in JHB.

Your absolutly right though, this doesnt qualify me to make statements on other peoples characters, it does however qualify me to share my opinions, which are being substanciated. I will keep my humble opinions of you to my self!!!


:ok:

troll
in Scandinavian folklore, an ugly manlike creature that lived in a cave or under a bridge.

Opinionated
Definition 1. having definite and unchangeable opinions, often seemingly on all subjects.

[Staller]

I have not spoken one word other than the truth on this forum and dont plan to either. Why should I, SA is my second home, family friends etc..

Sometimes, the truth hurts.:mad:

[Rhodie]

Staller,

Your last comment re Gunss is taking it too far.

If you want to play with the big boys, then act like one. Since you began the tirade, permit me a few truths:

For your info my license is current and I am rated on several piston aircraft, nr, twin rt, and the DC3 rating to follow at some stage, with ATPL exams underway. I achieved this with a very reputable school in JHB.

and

have not spoken one word other than the truth on this forum and dont plan to either. Why should I, SA is my second home, family friends etc..

I took the liberty of doing some checking, with the relevant authorities.

Point 1. Twin Rating - some people would be very interested to hear where you acquired this rating, as no record seems to exist..?
2. DC3 - ditto the above. I managed to find an instance where you are reflected as a non-flying crew on one flight.
3. ALTP - you do not appear to even have a comm. licence. I have never heard of a low time PPL going straight to ATP. Do you know the same guys who 'bought' theirs a few years back..?

as for your "other than the truth..." well, I think we have pretty well covered that now, dontcha think...?? :hmm:

One last point, - whilst SA is quite a lot bigger than your part of the world, the aviation community, like everywhere, is NOT.

You may find that Gunss has MANY more friends here, than you do or will have.

Thank you, and goodnight.

:mad:

[George Tower]

Staller

For the record I have no connection to ATC at George Airport - I do however have great cause to thankful for the service they have provided to me when I been flying to and from George. I also did my RT licence at FAGG hence my choice of nick.

Sandy has a rather fiesty bee in his bonnet and whether or not we agree with his method of going about resolving his grievance, he does feel genuinely upset and has tried not to get personal. You on the other hand have made yourself look like an ignorant fool. Being personally abusive about people who have a different opinion to yours only serves to denigrate your own character.

[Jetdriver]

Ok thats enough !

You all know the rules.

Cut out the personal abuse !
No use of real names unless they are in the public domain.

we are very leniant with regards to this forum as regards editorial control but that is a choice not a direction. Frankly there is no reason at all why this forum should not be treated in the same manner as any other. If some of you cannot exercise some self restraint in this regard I will be happy to do it for you.

This thread is clearly on a subject of some importance to its originator although he might be better advised to reserve his arguements for his upcoming court case rather than debating it here any more.