Airlink (NJS) BAe146 media report

[Double Asymmetric]

Hello all,
I watched with interest the ABC's 7:30 Report last night on the continuing issues of safety on the BAe146. I'm naturally suspicious of the media and would like some input/impressions from those who fly the aircraft - media beat up or are there genuine health concerns held by those who crew them? I am asking on behalf of a friend who is keen to take up employment on the aircraft.

Cheers in advance,
DA

:confused:

[RENURPP]

Unfortunately I was flying and missed the report.

I have personally had no fumes incident, none of the crew I have flown with have reported any ill effects of fumes, whilst flying on the same aircraft as myself.

Fumes are not restricted to 146's apparantly some Dash 8's recently have a fume problem of their own.

I understand that the 737 have a history as do Airbus ???????

CO in piston engine aircraft is probably more of an issue!!

Having said that, their are people who honestly believe the fumes are a concern and that alone should mean that it needs some investigation (as is ongoing) and preferably not by the media.

[Eastwest Loco]

The "gas chamber" stories have now been floating around for years.

One thing this debate has me wondering about is why there was never to my knowledge one single report of fumes in the cabin on any of the Eastwest 146-300 fleet.

Is is an AMD issue, or problems with the smaller -200 and 100 series only?

In no way am I saying it does not happen, but it always seems to be the smaller beasties.

Any opinions on that?

Best all

EWL

[Rich-Fine-Green]

I'm a bit suss about anything that comes out of the ABC of late.

Their coverage of the Iraq war made Al-Jazeera look Pro-American.

Every Iraqi atrocity was 'alleged'.

Every Allied atrocity was 'Fact'.




Then again the Fox coverage was scary;

I watced one Fox anchor state .....'why stop now, lets just keep rolling through to Damascus'.....

:ooh:

[Plane Speaker]

Being one of many worldwide whose mortgage is partly supported by 146 operations, I regularly browse the D & G forum for 146 news. Sadly, more often than not I read stories (and I use the word advisedly) regarding " the gaschamber" A couple of thoughts gentlemen............aviation world wide isn't great at the moment; we need to encourage people to fly as it keeps us in a job, not knock our products, and ............why does this issue seem to be more focussed in Aus than any other continent, country or indeed operator? Do NJS crew have callibrated noses? What percentage of fumes reported results in an engine or APU removal? With the utmost respect, how much of this is now so ingrained into you guys that it's now become second nature to sniff out smells?
In no way to I wish to compromise safe operation of the aircraft, however I do wonder if the Aus pilot population are just now over reacting to a managed and stable situation.
And "no" we don't get ABC on cable in Europe.

Edited for a couple of typos within seconds of posting!

[fruitloop]

EW loco,
Sorry to burst your bubble but all from EWI through to EWS had probs,some minor some major (three weeks in the shed having APU,both packs and all plumbing removed and cleaned,all the carpets,seats and galleys removed etc.etc)It wasn't pretty !!

Plane speaker,
It has been the best o/time generator ever built. As to aussies having good noses,ta. In your operations do you now use Mobil 291 as opposed to 2.(For the uninformed it has the same quality's with-out the aromatics,sort of like taking the onion smell out gas so no-one can detect it and/or grizzle with a possible law suit to follow).

[Eastwest Loco]

Fruitloop

Never knew that. I was however aware of leaky front bog problems across the fleet. Maybe that could be considered fumes in the cabin problems. The blue tide on climbout was not a pretty sight.

I was aware of problems with the Garrett??? APUs. Is this the same thing?

Best regards and thanks for the info.

Oh yes - and Plane speaker - the juniour jumbo is one of the finest aeroplanes I have ever had the pleasure of riding in - in Y class too in 96 seat config with EW. Felt as solid as the F28 or DC10 aound you, and landed wonderfully on the cantilever Comet undercarriage. I also loved the flap harmonic you could clearly hear from 2 miles away on a still DPO night while the girl was on downwind out of Sydney.

They were a dream to trim, but a b@stard to load due to the low entry locker doors.

EWL

[Sperm Bank]

I flew the chamber in Oz and Europe. Never had a problem in Europe in over 3 years. In Oz however there was the odd ocassion of smell/fumes. I don't think those little donks were designed for hot weather ops. We went to a few summer destinations in europe Italy/Spain/Portugal etc but 30 to 35 degrees is the worst case scenario. Not the 45 + degrees stuff you get down here. The ozzies have done an inordinate amount of testing and I guess to their credit have been pro-active at times with their response. Time will tell as to whether the concerns were justified.

[zlin77]

The East-west 300 fleet suffered continuing problems with oil fumes, sourced from both the engines and the APU, they were evident within 9 months of the types introduction into the fleet . So it would appear as though the fume problem is spread across all 146 variants. I believe the Fokker 100 and G IV used the same 150 series APU as the 146-300 and they too suffered from some fume ingestion problems.

[Eastwest Loco]

SB

Reports from the West of the wide brown land indicated the 300 series with a full load would hand in its resignation at FL250.

The girls were good serviceability wise for us in general as the LAMEs learned to get one step ahead of them, but terrible on keeping block time.

In a 3/2 config, the comfy punter sipping good Aussie champagne didn't seem to mind.

I think I would rather a fumes in cabin incident than an uncommanded rudder deployment on an aeroplane I was riding.

I am trying to think of one loss of airframe through structural or control failure, but cannot think of one. Please advise if anyone can correct that.

All in all a good beastie despite the warts. F28 Pilots who moved up to them considered them an airborne brick, but they did the job very nicely for the SLF.

Best all

EWL

[RENURPP]

I haven't re-read all the posts to check it hasn't already been said but the NJS 300 series are considerably different to the EW 300's.

The NJS passeneger 300's have 507 engines, the EW 300's 502's, the same as in the 100 + 200's.

Meaning the NJS 300's performance is much better.

[Eastwest Loco]

RENURPP

The EW 146's were a lovely thing to ride in but badly underpowered as they were running the 100-200 series donks.

Great out of Tassie, as we never really copped the high temps, excep HBA on rare occasion.

EWL

[Plane Speaker]

Mobil 291 is now removed as an approved lubricant by Honeywell as it does strange things inside the engine that at the moment can not be explained.
To my knowledge, there's never been a 146 or an RJ lost to a mechanical fault attributed to a design fault. All losses have been associted with human error. I'd welocome ay other views.
The 507 has same max power rating as the 502 however its T/O perf is better due to additional supercharger section. Allegedly the 507H is a better engine than the 507F. ("H" suffix indicates a hydromechanical fuel control unit, "F" suffix indicates FADEC control) in terms of reliability.
BAE has, in my view, taken a very proactive and open response to all the 146 issues in my view and have handled them head on, and well. Pitch oscillation springs to mind especially, with undoubtedly the hardest thing being an admittance of the problem.

[Repro]

With over 8,000 hours on the good old East-West beasties, I have never had a fumes problem, only when the FO farted.

I think the problem was mainly female related. Like when they turn on the ovens after being cleaned and thinking the smell is engine related.

They could do with higher rated engines , but the poms build bloody strong airframes with big bolts.

Not related to this forum, but I wish we could turn the clock back to pre 89, East-West was the best. Maybe they should have closed Ansett and kept East-West.

[Captain Custard]

Plane Speaker:

Almost right. While both engines put out a maximum of 7000lb of thrust, the 507 is rated to a higher temp than the 502 (because of the difference you describe), hence the 507 is much better in hot/high conditions, and hence the ability of the NJS -300s to thrash those gutless old Eenie Weeny bombs (onya EWL). Bit of a shame they didn't actually compete head to head: AN wimped out and put them all in NZ (nice and chully). They didn't help their own cause by absolutely thrashing them up and down the QLD coast in the early 90s trying to keep the sched: I'm sure that didn't do them (the donks) any good.

[fruitloop]

To Captain Custard,
Almost right.If you care to check the specs (including ISA specs)you will notice a very large difference between the 502 and 507 (in either E or H,different mod status)in available thrust with GA selected.
Repro
You have been either very lucky or the extra filters in the cockpit supply lines have masked the odours (including the melted rubber bands on the oven doors)Nothing like having the recirc pick-up three feet from the toilet and galley area.I agree with your last statement as to the fate of East-west regards the take-over by Ansett.
Plane Speaker
I also can,t recall any ploughing in (several had the misfortune of having the engines "roll-back"early in the piece including one in Aus (bloody good work by the crew to work that one out)how-ever a few have run out of runway (Including the "royal") After looking inside both motors there is a lot of "minor"differences beside the extra supercharging !
zlin77
Both the Garrett (100 or 150)and Sunstrand apu's have their own faults (I'm sure we can find a band-aid here)
Cheers

[Eastwest Loco]

Repro

Totally agree. As long as we could have ditched the An Management.

Miss the DPO turnarounds mate??

We were bloody quick!!

Best EWL

[Repro]

I miss the overnights to.

Yes, we had a terrific bunch of blokes that new their stuff and also new how to have a good time at work and play.

We made the good times possible.

[Eastwest Loco]

We did that Repro

Damned fine unit, and a great bunch of people. Still think DPO holds a world record for F28 turnaround. 7 mins 30 secs wheels stop to wheels roll. 44 and freight off, 54 and freight on. Billy Friend at the controls and number 2 turning through the turnaround. Made unloading and loading 5 and 6 very interesting.

Very much a can do Airline, even if HBA wouldnt believe she was airborne when we called. Beat curfew back into SYD by minutes.

Best all

EWL