Salary vs Training Costs

[Tosh McCaber]

I don’t know whether this is one for the Wannabes section, or Terms and Endearments- but here goes!

In light of other threads discussing that trainees are now spending as much as £65k (!) on ATPL training, it would be interesting to hear what typical commencing salaries are currently being paid to newly qualified pilots by their airline.

Can any newly/ recently qualified pilots, who have had to take on hefty loans to cover their training, let us know how they are coping in paying back their loans. On top of which will be mortgage or rent, and all the other living expenses.

That is, how much is salary versus outgoings? How are you coping?
:confused:

[RVR800]

Yikes..
£ 65,000
£ 914 month over 10 years
Impossible on a FI(R) wage of £10/hr
Also assumes APR 8.5% which would be unlikely

Try selling the house or getting a large redundancy cheque or contacting a rich relative

All the above have proved a hit

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Spent £16,700 on training. Current airline kicks off at £34,500 (take home about £2,200 a month).

No complaints from me :)

WWW

[George T]

WWW

£16,700 for all the flight training???

George T

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yep.

RAF Flying and 6th Form scholarship gets me a PPL.

UAS, flying friends for petrol money and the Air Training Corps Basic Glider Training (motor gliders) built my hours up to about 200 for free.

Became a weekend volunteer flying instructor with the Air Training Corps which built my hours up to about 400. Free flying plus expenses plus a military motor glider instructor rating.

Finished Uni and got a local desk job, lived with parents and studied PPSC in the evenings by correspondence for a year. Did exams and total cost £1,800. Quit job and went did an IMC, BCPL and FI rating for £6,200 in 7 weeks. FI rating was less than half price because the CAA granted an exemption based on my MMG instructor rating.

Immediately started work at local flying school in Spring 1999. Built up to 1000hrs then did Multi rating and IR in Nov1999 in 3 weeks for £6,800. Went to work for BAE in Jerez.

One year in Spain and then into a B737.

+ £6.2k
+ £6.8k
+ £1.8k
---------
= £14.8k
---------

The rest (£1.9k) is accounted for in accomodation, materials, travel and living expenses whilst away from home.

I kept a little book and entered everything I spent of my training as I knew one day it would be interesting to *know*.

This was all done prior to JAA implementation but the RAF still sponsors and the Air Training Corps is open to all still. I was also able to claim NVQ Tax Relief during training.

PPRuNe through its advice and helpful members saved me thousands. Which is a debt I am slowly trying to work off ;)

Good luck,

WWW

[clear prop!!!]

Very good WWW!

I think we all know that when you did things they were a LOT cheaper. Fact is to-days Wannabes are faced with the fact that:

There is no NVQ
There is no BCPL
There is a higher cost of ATPL ground school
The JAR exams are much more expensive etc etc

And we STILL hear from Scroggs that training has NEVER been cheaper!!!!!!! Sorry Scroggs but you are WRONG!, it was about 30% cheaper only 2 years ago!!!

I'm sorry current moderators, but things have moved on, and todays Wannabes are faced with a very very high cost of rising to your heights!

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]

[piperindian]

Its no more about flying, its just about money. I prefer the small aeroclubs or gliding clubs atmosphere to those JAR mega FTOs who are just there to su.ck your money by all means with false promises of interviews.
The worst is that the job market is pretty bad right now in Europe . So this 75k would in vain !!!!!!
Dont waste your time and money on a JAR ATPL. If i had to do it again , i would buy a 100% share for the same price in a small aeroplane and enjoy it evey week-end !

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Clear Prop, well as a JAA qualified Approved flying instructor only 6 months 'retired' to the airlines and as PPRuNe Moderator I have a pretty good insight into the current state of pilot training.

To be honest at the moment you've never had it so good.

a) Airlines are hiring low time pilots at a rate not seen for a decade

b) JAA Groundschool exams have been cut a lot of slack to get people through e.g. the veto of 'bad' questions, the lower pass mark and the lifting of the requirement to pass the modules in limited sittings.

c) Flight training is now better designed to get you through the flightests first time even if it is more expensive.

d) Total Integrated Course bills are lower now than ten years ago. Yes they are. BAe is £13k cheaper now than in 1991, SFT are cheaper than 8 years ago and CABAIR nee Seacoat are cheaper.

I concede though that it was slightly cheaper to go BCPL and Instruct like I did. However, without the RAF/ATC my bill would have been £9k higher which is pretty close to - say - the Multiflight ab intio to Frzn ATPL. Plus I was lucky and passed everything first time which you can't count on - I actually budgeted for £20k.

Oh and there was no PPRuNe in my day. Well until Danny invented it and I piped up as just about the first Wannabe! Look where that led!!

Good luck though,

WWW

[Tosh McCaber]

Thanks, WWW, for your comments and advice. Some of the various other replies somewhat stray from the point. My original question was really meant to ask recently qualified pilots how much of a burden the deadweight of £45000+ training costs are, in relation to their salary? :confused: :confused:

[mach78]

Don't want to disillusion you guys, but it's been about money for a long time now.

By the way, when it comes to totting up your costs, don't forget to take loss of potential earnings over your training period.I was lucky in that although my costs were high,I was able to keep my employment going-effectively being paid to become a professional pilot-which is more than many less fortunate were able to manage.

My own over training was a decade ago having only just lost out in the boom that began in the late eighties.There then came a period of complete stagnation-a completely different scenario from the current state of the industry-you lucky lot!

[clear prop!!!]

WWW

Firstly, thanks for your wishes of luck

Thankfully I am now well through the JAA system, as one of the early pioneers, as it were, and hve used up all the luck that anyone has the right to expect in life!

With respect, to suggest that those currently in the system have ‘never had it so good’ is naive and complete and utter crap!!

When both you and I started, some 20 odd % was deducted from our training costs thanks to NVQ… FACT… nowhere in the system has an equivalent amount been added back.

If I remember rightly, you did NOT initially qualify as a JAA instructor but did so under the old CAA and VASTLY cheaper route.

I doubt that flight training has changed one bit. FTO’s are still providing the same high quality of training as was the case in your day. So no savings there.

BAe may well have reduced their costs as a result of ‘leaving the country’, but OATS and indeed Cabair have increased their rates over the last few years. ..OH yes they have!

JAA cutting slack…I don’t think so!

There is now no way by which you can achieve a modular for anywhere near the £16 –£20K you talk about..and that is a fact. So lets not bring that into the equation in Tosh’s question ‘cos you won’t do it for less than £30K+.

Now, we all accept that you may have your ear to the ground etc etc, but lets not compare apples with oranges. Things are now much more expensive, even by your own figures!

If this sounds like a personal dig, it is not. In my early days I gained a lot of information and inspiration from your good self, and for that you have my thanks.

Fact is things have moved on. Whilst your old employers, BAe may be a better bet now for integrated, most here on a modular path, are very much at a financial disadvantage and that is an indisputable fact..

So Tosh,

Back to your question, £45k of debt is a burden for anyone, even on a salary of £100K+!!
It depends what you do and how quickly you get a well paying job.

I can tell you that even £16K of debt on an instructors salary is a HUGE burden…..but, do I grudge it…..not one bit!

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

With respect, to suggest that those currently in the system have ‘never had it so good’ is naive and complete and utter crap!!

No it isn't. Its easier to get a job now than at any time since 1989. Cor, I haven't been called naive for yonks.

When both you and I started, some 20 odd % was deducted from our training costs thanks to NVQ… FACT… nowhere in the system has an equivalent amount been added back.

23% but who is counting? All the figures I quoted were with NVQ VTR already taken off.

If I remember rightly, you did NOT initially qualify as a JAA instructor but did so under the old CAA and VASTLY cheaper route.

Yep - thought that was obvious. Obviously not. Not VASTLY cheaper. PPL and hours building are still the same price. CPL module is £5k more expensive than BCPL. FI rating is the same money. The exams are about £1,000 more expensive due to longer groundschool hours but that does at least make them easier.

I doubt that flight training has changed one bit. FTO’s are still providing the same high quality of training as was the case in your day. So no savings there.

No in my day there was far more rubbish training at commercial levels available - I experienced it first hand. At least with the JAA shake up even small schools now sing from an Approved syllabus and this is better overall in my professional opinion. Flight training is now better at getting you through the flightests as there are more hours in relevant sims with visuals and less burning pointless hours in the sky beacon bashing.

BAe may well have reduced their costs as a result of ‘leaving the country’, but OATS and indeed Cabair have increased their rates over the last few years. ..OH yes they have!

BAe were reducing charges throughout the latter part of the 90's compared with the early. Factor in 10 odd years of average wage increase and then take the course prices as a percentage. You'll find that in those REAL TERMS course prices at Cranfield and Bournemouth are less.

JAA cutting slack…I don’t think so!

Yes. Pass mark for ATPL lowered to 65%. You can pass the exams one at a time as slowly as you like - no pass in 3 sittings or go back to the start. Also the question bank of all questions will be available soon to one and all. Not a big point really.

There is now no way by which you can achieve a modular for anywhere near the £16 –£20K you talk about..and that is a fact. So lets not bring that into the equation in Tosh’s question ‘cos you won’t do it for less than £30K+.

You couldn't for £16k - £20k in my day either. Unless LIKE ME you got sponsorships and flew for free in HMG aircraft. I thought that was kind of implicit. Sorry. Never assume in aviation.

Now, we all accept that you may have your ear to the ground etc etc, but lets not compare apples with oranges. Things are now much more expensive, even by your own figures!

I never said they were. I said you've never had it so good. Which in employment terms you haven't. Things are more expensive. But not horrendously so. People still manage to go from zero to Frzn ATPL in £31,500 - I helped him do it. Under the good old days you would have struggled to do it for less than 90% of that figure. So I don't call that increase horrendous.

If this sounds like a personal dig, it is not. In my early days I gained a lot of information and inspiration from your good self, and for that you have my thanks.

No offence taken friend. I am skilled at reading posts in a neutral 'voice' - I've had lots of practice ;-) I hope my counter points will be taken in a similar manner. Congrats on 'making it' by the way.

Fact is things have moved on. Whilst your old employers, BAe may be a better bet now for integrated, most here on a modular path, are very much at a financial disadvantage and that is an indisputable fact..

I disagree.

So Tosh,

Back to your question, £45k of debt is a burden for anyone, even on a salary of £100K+!!
It depends what you do and how quickly you get a well paying job.

Agreed.

I can tell you that even £16K of debt on an instructors salary is a HUGE burden…..but, do I grudge it…..not one bit!

Still paying my small debt off - which will happen when Mum gets a flash new kitchen installed in the Spring.


WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

.

WWW

[Bluebaron]

i spent about 25,000 getting my licence and starting soon what an airline at 24,747 plus flight pay (about 6000). Still owe about 20,000! :rolleyes:

[BIG BLACK RAT]

WWW

Yes. Pass mark for ATPL lowered to 65%. You can pass the exams one at a time as slowly as you like - no pass in 3 sittings or go back to the start. Also the question bank of all questions will be available soon to one and all. Not a big point really.

Wow - is this true ?

Sorry - Ive not read about this before and seeing as I'm now the proud owner of some big Bristol GS folders....very interesting !

Please tell me more ! ! !

TOSH - Money - evil stuff. It seems that its not a problem for some to spend xxx £££'s and take a year out getting their ATPL. I wish I were in that boat but sadly not!

I dont think there is a simple way of paying back money....apart from wearing a pair of tights on your head at the local branch and having a Jag on tick over outside ! ! !

;)

[SuperTed]

WWW,

You must tell us more about this, please!!!!


'Pass mark for ATPL lowered to 65%. You can pass the exams one at a time as slowly as you like - no pass in 3 sittings or go back to the start. Also the question bank of all questions will be available soon to one and all.'

[scroggs]

Clear Prop,
I'm not aware of having said that training for commercial licences is cheaper now than it ever was. Perhaps you'd indicate where I have done so and I will gladly correct it. Howver, I have said that the employment market is better now than it has ever been, although I do believe that will change in the near future.
It is a fact that those going through the grind of obtaining licences will feel that they have it tougher than anyone before or since, and nothing I can say will alter that impression, however mistaken. But the number of professional pilot jobs available in the UK at the moment (and the US, Europe and the Far East. Not Australia)is higher than it's been since the armed forces were recruiting for the Korean War! There are vastly more wannabes than there used to be, so getting that first job may be as difficult as ever. That's the reality of it, I think.

[Alex Whittingham]

Not true I'm afraid. You get a maximum of six sittings at the exams and no paper can be taken more than four times or its back to the start. The pass mark is 75% with no negative marking.

Within these constraints you can, in theory, take the exams in dribs and drabs but you would be advised to take them in two modules which leaves two 'spare' sittings for resits on each module.

[clear prop!!!]

Well Scroggs, if I miss quoted you I hereby publicly apologise.

My quote was from a thread where ‘think’ I remember you stating that, not only have wannabes never had it so good, but the cost of training, in real terms, has never been cheaper. Now I may be wrong but I think that’s what you said. If not….sorry!

My point is, that for today’s wannabees it IS more expensive, and I don’t care what anyone says that is a fact.

Even the removal of NVQ alone at 23% added that amount on to the cost in one foul swoop. I can see nowhere that has reduced it’s prices by that amount, indeed most have increased their rates.

I hear what WWW says and can see where he is coming from, but the advent of JAA over the last few years means that in relevant living memory things are more expensive. Just look at the overall cost of the extended ground school (inc time and accommodation)as just one example

Yes the job market may be better, but tell some of the 1,000+hr instructors that I know that!

As an aside Scroggs, you say there are now more wannabes. I wonder if that is in fact the case. I have absolutely no reason to doubt you, but with 4 Forces and PPSC going to the wall, would that not indicate that there were fewer students looking for the services of ground schools? Supply and demand and all that. That is based on nothing concrete I hasten to add!

Now to go back to the main question of this thread. I doubt that you would be able to submit an equation that made the cost of training a sensible investment over a short period of time, but is that why we do it? No, if we did we would be certified!!! http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/biggrin2.gif

Again, if I have wrongly quoted our moderator,............ sorry!

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: clear prop!!! ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Alex - thanks for that correction, I knew I was talking about some time ago when the exams were a farce. I suspected they might have tightened up by now. It was only a side issue.

The facts are that you can still get a frozen ATPl CPL IR for £32k if you really realy try. Thats about 10 - 15% more than uunder the old BCPl route. Its not as drastic a rise as it could have been.

As for Integrated courses - well you could have gone to Prestwick in 1998 and paid £52k or Jerez in 2001 and pay £48k.

Foe those moaning about the job market you obviously do not remember the period 1991 - 1996. 1000hr instructors were lucky to being paid - never mind moaning nobody had asked them to fly their jet yet.

The irony is that with a slow down highly possible soon you might all be looking back at 2001 as being a bumper year...

Good luck to one and all,

WWW

[no sponsor]

Taking an objective standpoint, I think people should consider that the economies of Europe are slowing. Being a frequent traveller on BA (a Gold card member) I used to travel business everywhere, now our policy is to use economy or the cheap airlines. Many of my friends in other companies are being forced down the same route.

I don't know what they really means - that BA will have heavy losses of £65m this year? But the likes of GO, EZY, Buzz all have full aircraft?

What I do know is that confidence in the high spending industries such a Telcomms etc is at an all time low.

I think you have to think that if you start training today, then you'll be qualified to start line training in 13-16 months - just when the economies are either back in business or really suffering - and that will reflect in the airline recruitment. When BA stop recruiting, that has a knock-on to all the other smaller operators - whose experienced pilots don't move.