Smoke and mirrors. How should pilots cope with commercial presures?

[coning angel]

Top marks to Mac the Knife for spotting the 'deliberate mistake'. He even noticed the play on names. Go to the top of the class!


The point I was trying to make and feel very strongly about is that due to commercial pressures etc, people are going to be killed flying into wires even after being lectured constantly on the subject. ( I had just watched the Robinson safety video and decided a few days away from flying R22's might be nice!) It's one thing to say "I won't ever do that" but what if one day you are flying to take a couple of VIP's home and the weather closes in. etc etc. Look at the Harding incident in the twin squirrel a while back. A tragedy? Yes. Avoidable? Yes!

With the coming summer and (hopefully) increased amount of flying out there, we can all fly safe and not buckle to peer/commercial pressure "to get the job done"! Safe Flying.

[Heliport]

coning angel

Thank you for deleting your original thread and replacing it with a much better version. You raise an important issue.

I assume describing yourself as a teacher married to a pilot was part of the 'smoke and mirrors'. It might avoid the discussion being side-tracked if you say whether you're a professional pilot, PPL or non-aviator.

Heliport

[coning angel]

I am a teacher. I am married to a pilot and I also fly privately. I have a ppl(h) and ppl(a). I have a share in a small fixed wing a/c. I have a combined total time of approx. 150hours. No I don't consider myself an expert by any means. Ask me a question about history and that's different. Oh, and yes I do often trip over the aviation books scattered around the house.

Question for discussion could be...
What are the legal issues with flights in bad weather?
or
How can/should pilots cope with commercial pressures?


Mrs Angel
I've amended your suggested 'questions for discussion' for reasons which should be obvious.

If people think a pilot has done something wrong, it's open to them to discuss it with the pilot concerned. That way, if the facts are as they believe and the pilot did make an error of judgment, he can benefit from the opinions/wisdom of his fellow professionals. It seems to me that is a constructive approach.
It's difficult to see how the rest of us, who weren't in the helicopter and don't know what actually happened on a particular occasion, can offer any useful opinion about the alleged facts of a particular case.

Heliport

[Crashondeck]

This thread and its predecessor has got very complicated. However it seems to me that the true thread is very simple.

In the UK we have the 500 foot rule and as a result the operations manuals I have seen have a minimum operating height of 700 feet or so. In the UK that will keep you at least 500 ft from most of the HT power lines. To the non aviator, 500 ft seems quite a long way, particularly from objects that are notoriously hard to see.

It seems to me that our inter continental colleagues have little understanding of the helicopter industry here in the UK. We are highly regulated, with an helicopter unfriendly climate, flying passengers that think helicopters can go anywhere at any time and at the same time haunted by a vicious media that loves helicopter accidents.

Pilots who insist on pushing the limits frighten away customers and run the risk of having incidents. Incidents feed the media frenzy that puts more people off, so the CAA decides on increasing the regulations, forcing operating costs up..........

Maybe a little over dramatic but you get my drift.

It is important that pilots are made to consider the wider picture and their responsibilities to their passengers and industry.
Otherwise their employer and or the CAA might want to get involved.

[Heliport]

Crashondeck
Fair point about the issues becoming over-complicated.

___________________________________


I've now amended the title and edited some posts in the hope we can have a useful discussion about a well-known problem: Commercial pressures on pilots.



NB:
Please keep the discussion general: The value of threads such as this is that we should be able to exchange views, learn from each other and improve flight safety.

Please bear in mind that people employed by the CAA read PPRune.

The UK helicopter world is relatively small and rumours (especially if they are 'bad') travel fast. I am very anxious that the CAA should not not investigate any pilot/alleged incident as a result of something they learn from discussions in our Rotorheads 'Crew Room'.


Heliport

[Old Man Rotor]

Yes you have indeed editored [withdrawn totally] some posts.............

Well its your sandpit old boy......

Just hope teachers with a will to dob in pilots in total ignorance, can benefit these threads, more than aviators that had spent 40 years keeping aircraft the right way up.

Farewell and Good luck..............

[[email protected]]

As I said on my previous (deleted) post - if you have done nothing wrong then you should have nothing to fear from the CAA - if however, you are breaking the rules to please the customer then don't bleat if someone shops you. Yes I know losing your license means losing your livelihood but if your family were nearly taken out by a lorry driver who had exceeded his tachograph limits to get the job done would you just suggest that someone has a little chat with him or would you phone the police?
Our first responsibility as captain of the aircraft is for the safety of the aircraft, crew and passengers - NOT the balance sheet or the likely future business from rebookings....anyone care to argue that point?

[Heliport]

OMR
Although you expressed your views in rather blunt terms, I happen to sympathise with the points you made. There's alwasy a risk that people who don't have the qualifications/experience of professional pilots can easily misunderstand a situation. When it's all second-hand gossip, the dangers are even greater.
I hope your 'Farewell' doesn't mean you won't contribute further to the discussion. Non-aviators, and even low hours pilots, can learn a great deal from professional pilots with experience such as yours.

As I understand it, Mrs Angel wasn't even a passenger in the helicopter so it's not immediately clear to me why she is getting so involved. But, a discussion of the general principles/problems is acceptable which is why I have left that part.
The sole purpose of my editing was to move the discussion away from any particular allegation(s). I thought it was clear from my posts on this and the previous thread that I am very anxious to steer well clear of anything which might deliberately or inadvertently lead to any pilot getting into trouble as a result of something which appears on Rotorheads. By 'getting into trouble', I include even being investigated by the CAA.

If people wish to "dob in pilots" I can't stop them, but I can and will stop them using Rotorheads to do so.


Crab
I didn't delete your post. Mrs Angel deleted the previous thread which, as the originator, she was entitled to do.

Your suggestion that a pilot who's done nothing wrong has nothing to fear from a CAA investigation appears to overlook the anxiety the pilot suffers for months whilst that decision is made and, in all probability, the expense he incurs in obtaining specialist legal advice.


Heliport

[Old Man Rotor]

Ok....thats sort of fair...............however I feel your CG needs adjusting.
Pprunes strength lays in the old and the young that are willing to contribute in a positive and constructive way to our global industry.....and that includes dealing with operators, pilots, engineers and manufacturers in a way that gets the task done without involving the guys with the big stick....and in my view the teacher is waving a ignorant provocative big stick.

In my part of the world [and I bet a pint that its the same all over] we can deal with any wayward individual far more effectively than any man from the government can.....period. [But he/she has to be wayward.................and that is the teachers weakness...suggestion and innuendo does not make you guilty]


Crabby............I needed to take one chip out of my Hard Head when I left the Green Suits....and inserted another when I put on a Blue Suit, its called Commercial............

No its not a lower standard.........just a different way of looking at things....not everyone can make that transistion, and it was hard.

Please accept that Military [Para Military] and Commercial use the same aircraft but the thought patterns are not the same.

One is not right and the other wrong............just different.

[coning angel]

okay OMR. I'll just sit back and continue to read about these ongoing accidents. Another happened yesterday by the sounds of it but as i'm not an expert, i'll wait to hear the true cause of this helicopter FLYING INTO WIRES. How many more people are going to be injured or killed this year? Just hope it's never anyone I know!

[paco]

Without getting into the particulars of any particular accident, it's worth pointing out that wires are tricky beasts, and those seen on the way into a site can very often not be seen on the way out, especially against clear blue skies (not so much in bad weather as is commonly thought). People who fly around them regularly, like myself, don't actually look for wires, but the clues to their existence first. I would be careful about blaming pilots for wire strikes without knowing the whole circumstances of the flight.

However, the question of customer pressure has been something I have had to cope with all of my career, on both sides of the Atlantic - and you should see the tricks they try to pull over here - they know the flight manual very well, and your transient limits!

Pilots, and helicopter ones in particular, are in the curious position of being told they are in charge (see Annex 2 of the Chicago Convention), yet also being influenced largely by the uneducated, including customers and management. Nobody tells you that you must develop certain qualities on top of all those exams, one being the ability to say no. I was lucky to be saying no to Generals when I was but a mere corporal, in another life, but other people didn't and I hope I have the breadth of mind to realise that they don't have that experience and the world is not as black and white as some people in their ivory towers seem to realise.

It's not just pilots that should be on PDM/CRM courses, it's also management and customers, and *then* we might start reducing the accident rate! Funny how, if a fork lift driver says he can't take more than 8 barrels, people believe him, yet they always turn up with those extra couple of hundred pounds with a helicopter! Is there a reason why we seem to have no credibility and nobody listens? It's very frustrating.

The only thing I would like to say to fellow pilots faced with pressure is to point out that you are not just saying NO for yourself, but for the next guy, because that customer will have expectations based on the service *you* provide, or the weather you fly in.

Phil

[Old Man Rotor]

If we sat around long enough, I fully expected to hear you crow.....just earlier than I would have wished.

Wires and helicopters are ...............

Oh, I won't say anymore, as the last time I responded to your provocavtive ignorant and one sided crucifiction of a fellow pilot...the Moderator decided to remove me.

Horses for courses........and your not qualified to ride on this one.

Use these threads to learn from, not to preach from the darkside.

[ShyTorque]

Commercial pressure comes from a number of directions.

For example, on arrival at the aircraft, the customer sees the vacant seat and wants to put a fat friend in it. He doesn't understand about IFR fuel reserves and MAUM so when he is told, sorry but no, he thinks the pilot is an idiot.

Or, having been advised light baggage only, turns up with the world's largest suitcase. When the pilot points out that it has taken two people to lift it into the aircraft and it is too heavy, the customer thinks the pilot is just being pedantic and awkward.

The customer turns up and wants to change the destination to the back lawn of a large private house in the middle of a city ("It's OK, my friend's father owns it and he says we can land there). Pilot points out that CAA permission is required and a Rule 5.1 (c) exemption letter is required for a landing in a congested area, the customer thinks the pilot is a pedantic, awkward idiot.

On being told the weather is too bad for even IFR flight, (cloud on the deck and freezing temperatures at low level) the customer points out that the aircraft has radar and can therefore land anywhere in any conditions. Besides, he has just phoned a friend at the destination (a small field in the middle of nowhere) who said the weather is fine. He doesn't understand the requirement for a weather diversion airfield so he thinks the pilot is a stupid, awkward, pedantic idiot.

The customer turns up 2 hours late so it's dark now. He can't understand why the pilot thinks it's so difficult to land in an unlit and unmarked field in the dark. After all, he's been there himself (admittedly by day and ok, it was a couple of years back, but he's sure he can show the pilot where it is.....).

And there's an awful lot more...

The most difficult thing about this job is knowing when to say "NO!". Those that should have, often end up wishing they did have :rolleyes:

[Heliport]

OMR
I only removed your previous post because I'd removed that part of Coning Angel's post which was, as you say, a one sided crucixion of a fellow pilot which was unacceptable. There is no reason whatsoever to remove your last post which makes entirely acceptable comments about Coning Angel's continued 'the pilot is always wrong' attitudes.

Coning Angel
I considered deleting your post because it is outrageous to condemn the pilot in the Scottish helicopter crash without knowing the circumstances in which the helicopter hit the wires, what happened immediately before, what caused it to descend etc.
I've decided on balance to leave it so that readers of this thread can make their own assessment of how much weight to attach (if any) to your comments about pilots.
How many hours / how much experience do you have again?

Heliport

[Jack S.]

I've decided on balance to leave it so that readers of this thread can make their own assessment of how much weight to attach (if any) to your comments about pilots.
How many hours / how much experience do you have again?

Heliport, we are all pilots here some with a lot of experience some with only a bit.
Yet we should be open to everyone's opinion and treat this forum as such.
If someones ideas seems misinformed, one can try to give the member a different perspective. A lot of us come here to learn.
I am disappointed by your comment to coning angel, you, as a moderator should know better. The "You don't have a lot of hours, so you don't know sh!t" is a mentality I have ran into way to may times with "senior" pilots, it was sad to see you are actually one of them.
Jack..S.

[Heliport]

Jack S
It has been the policy of this forum since long before I became a Moderator that we don't allow posters to blame a pilot for a crash, or to suggest he/she was at fault, when the facts are not known. I entirely agree with that policy and will continue to implement it vigorously. For a professional pilot, the damage to his reputation and livelihood which can be caused by such allegations/innuendo can be enormous.

I think it's nothing short of disgraceful for anyone to suggest the pilot in the Scottish crash must have been flying dangerously when he hit the power cables when we have absolutely no idea of the circumstances in which it happened. eg The pilot may not have been able to see the wires when selecting a field for a forced landing, or not have been able to see them until it was too late.
You might wish to consider how you'd feel if you'd done nothing wrong and someone with no knowledge whatsoever about what actually happened was blaming you on a public forum.

If this had been a 'one off' I'd have dealt with it in the manner you suggest, but it wasn't. If you'd read Coning Angel's original post (now edited) which started this thread in which she criticised another pilot based on nothing but secondhand info, you'd know the clear implication of her most recent post was that the Scottish crash was caused by the pilot dodging power lines. In a now deleted post, another member did try to give her a different perspective, but she rejected it. I didn't, and don't, see any point in wasting my time trying where he failed.

If you read the 'Scottish helicopter crash' thread on this forum, you'll see I've made the same comment to one of our more experienced members.
I rarely express an opinion in debates. I make no apology for the opinion I have expressed on this occasion. You are, of course, entitled to disagree with me.

Heliport

[coning angel]

Heliport: "super moderator"?

After the initial post was edited/deleted and started in a more sensible vein, where do I actually lay blame on the pilot for the scottish accident? I can't see anywhere that I have said he was to blame. Maybe i'm missing something somewhere? Did the helicopter come into contact with the wires? Yes. End of discussion.

All I see now is a very one sided forum with moderators editing/deleting whichever posts they don't agree with.

As for asking about my hours/experience again just proves that you yourself are able to 'have a go' at people on here. Can't you practice what you preach?

I seem to have learned a lot from my short sortie into Rotorheads. That is that the helicopter industry seems to be a bit too eager to cover up it's own shortcomings!

[Sandy Toad]

Hey anybody know where the Teachers' Forum is?

I passed GCE History and have many hours sitting in desks, dual and solo. AND I'm married to a member of the Teaching fraternity. I am fed up with all these children failing their History Exams - its appalling. Why isn't it being stopped?

Modern Teachers - all personal opinions, NO FACTS! :rolleyes:

[SASless]

Wires and Helicopters....what a highly charged topic. Ah, sorry....simple fact of life as a helicopter pilot....you fly around in areas of wires....at heights that they exist in....and you will one day find yourself becoming a statistic. The blessed things can catch you faster than a suspicious wife....in an area you know like the back of your hand. Think not....try flying around in an area where loggers use the Hi-line method of logging. They can string a wire faster than pilots downing the first free pint at opening time. Ever see the alpine firewood haulling wires in Italy and other areas in the Alps.....mighty hard to see and thousands of feet above the ground. Cable car wires....some of them run into some very high places. Mobile balloon radars in the USA....used by the government to interdict the narcotics smugglers.....get a wee bit off course some very hazy day! The balloon is up there about 15,000 feet above cloud and there you are putzing along at a mere 3,000 with your head up and locked. Let your guard down and partake of some of that much maligned nap of the earth flying or seeing just how close you can come to the green bits when you think no one is looking......without having done your route recce first before getting into the trees. I guess we never have had an occasion to experience deteriorating weather....that is what I call wrongly guessing what the weather is going to be like when I get someplace....never happened to me...nope...not even once. (Yeah Right!)

Anyone of you outthere that thinks it will always happen to the other guy....and that you are immune from eating a set of wires....keep your insurance paid up. Your next of kin will thank you for it. I would like to see an honest poll of our members to see how many have ever undertaken a near-fatal closeup thread count of wires while flogging around in a helicopter.

I popped over a ridge near Homer, Alaska.....in the middle of absolutely no where.....at nought feet and max knots in a 500D....comfy as you would want.....to discover the only set of power lines in what must have had to be 300 nautical miles. I missed them by an unknown distance....had my eyes closed at the time (tensing for the impact...knowing I was dead!) and failing to cut the tail boom off after turning myself into a Soprano with the cyclic.....to come to the realization that complacency is very subtle in its onset. It sometimes leaves in a flash!

[Old Man Rotor]

Mrs or Mr Coning Angel [with plucked tailfeathers]....in his / her first posting which he / she deleted, [due to he / she realising that he / she was a total uneducated aviation dork] but more importantly he / she was willing if not suggesting that some pilot should be reported to the authority [CAA in that case] for doing something that she / he did not even witness.


When was your 500 episode.....don't tell the chalkie who's history......

Beware this individual is just fishing.......

[rotorboy]

Sasless,

Had mine (power line experience) awhile back . Made me leave my instructing/powerline job in the the flying motorcycle. My boss at the time had me flying powerlines in a r22. Not the smartest thing to be doing. was flying along wiht the lineman looking at insulators and the wind did a 180 and i started to settle. came about that close to eating it , was able to turn it into the wind away form the line, scared to death that the t/r was going to strike or get hung up. Never been so white in my life.

Then I went to reading gauges in a 61 yanking lumber. dont know which was safer. Guess it beats Nigeria, huh?

RB:ok:

[SASless]

That particular fright of a lifetime....wish it was the only one of that intensity....was in mid-September 1981.....at about the 5,000 hour level...three ATP's under my belt...two helicopter and one fixed wing....and a stint in Uncle Sam's vagabond air circus.