18th Jan 2002, 15:07
IN 27 YEARS AT BA I HAVE NEVER SEEN COMPULSARY REDUNDANCY USED, IS THIS THE THIN END OF THE WEDGE? <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">


<img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

HEADS UP EVERYONE COS IN FEBRUARY YOUR NEXT! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

18th Jan 2002, 18:21
Sad News indeed...
Best of Luck.

18th Jan 2002, 18:32
Is there no union to take care of insults like that!
One thing is cutting down operations and making them profitable in times like these, but there has got to be limits to how they can treat their employees, especially loyal one's that has put in a lot of years for the company.

It is despicable!

Good luck to you all!

18th Jan 2002, 18:49
Hovis,WELCOME to the real world.

Joyce Tick
18th Jan 2002, 18:52
Hang on a minute - is'nt that voluntary redundancy, an enhanced early pension or the chance of another job?

Sounds like a pretty fair offer all round - cosidering what's happened to aviation and what is happening to others.

Don't go blaming your employer - the guilty party is in cages in Guantanamo Bay.

18th Jan 2002, 18:56
What a comfort you are joyce! The mortgage people will be really happy with that explanation! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Joyce Tick
18th Jan 2002, 18:59
Spartacus - 5 times a day - you wouldn't be young ,strong and handsome as well by any chance?

Sir Kitt Braker
18th Jan 2002, 19:08
Hovis - don't understand.. you say voluntary severance in item 2, then go on to say you're out if you don't accept. Is it voluntary or not??

18th Jan 2002, 19:52
Can someone please confirm the voluntary redundancy pay offer the flight engineers were offered? I have heard that it was 4 weeks money per year of service, with the number of years uncapped. The engineers are being offered 3 weeks per year, up to a maximum of 18 years, as far as I`m aware. If this is true, someone with 35 years service stands to lose almost a whole years wages. Both groups of people are engineers, only one has the magical word "flight" in their title. Of course, I stand to be corrected on any of these points, as I`m only going on what I have been told.

Big Tudor
18th Jan 2002, 20:12

Not all the guilty parties are in Cuba. It is inconceivable to believe that all the post 9/11 redundancies / bankruptcies are purely down to that one event. A lot of companies (not just airlines) are loading bad news onto the back of events post 9/11.

18th Jan 2002, 21:00
Hovis-firstly I'm very sorry to hear the news for what its worth I dont think you will be the last to go through this .
If its of any help the following explanation of the terms you have been using might be of help.
Voluntry severance is what you get if you are under 50 and/or have less than 10 years service.It is what it says you volunteer to go and might get a small amount of cash-your pension is frozen.
Early retirement is what you get if you are over 50 and have more than 10 years service-your pension may be enhanced if your boss agrees ??
The pension isnt worth a lot unless youve been in it for 20 plus years.
BA will not talk about redundancy for many reasons not least of course it doesnt do the company image any good.
The pay offs that are being talked about are covered by law in that there is a minimum payoff calculated in weeks per years work.I think the UK minimum is 1 week per year of service so as long as BA pay at least that they are within the law.
As for relocation-I think that if the company require you to relocate then there is an allowance-in this case presumably they are saying it is you who wish to relocate,hope this has been of some help.

19th Jan 2002, 00:04
Sorry to hear the news Hovis. Get legal advice from the union to ensure what is on offer is within employment law (probably is)

Help from others unlikely especially BALPA! If it is of any consolation having been made redundant prior to joining BA it proved that if you have skills and experience you will pick something up.
Good Luck Bigpants
PS any engineering jobs at RAF Valley it has a civilian contractor looking after the jets I believe?

19th Jan 2002, 01:18
Hovis - so sorry to hear the axe is swinging at MAN - I'm one of the BFS Dispatchers axed in October and it don't feel good - I was only at BA 5 years and it hurt me - after 27 years it must be a real kick in the teeth - stick together as a group and fight for what you can - I feel as if BFS was allowed to fade away before our eyes. Anyone considering this more BA whingeing, imagine how you'd feel after 27 years........Good luck, Hovis.

19th Jan 2002, 01:35

sorry, can't confirm details of the various BA packages but to put this in context Mrs Stickshake has just been made redundant after 12 years with one of the 'big 5' accountancy firms. She gets 2 weeks pay per year of employment; this appears to be industry standard for chartered accountants although I can't say I know how this compares to other professions.

its terrible to hear what is happening to the manchester engineers but the package ain't as bad as many others are facing out there.



19th Jan 2002, 04:07

I am sorry for anybody faced with unpalatable choices, such as yours, but I must just correct one point.

The BA Flight Engineers, prior to 11/9, had a reasonable severance package. After 11/9 those still employed keeping the Classics in the air had the package on offer withdrawn.

It was reinstated after BALPA intervention and the pilots agreeing to some changes in working practises and withdrawal of some of their own benefits. It was, in reality, funded by their pilot colleagues.

Morally BA management's behaviour was questionable.

High Volt
19th Jan 2002, 04:21
Joyce Tick

People like you really scare me. I wish lobotomys weren't so successful.

[ 19 January 2002: Message edited by: High Volt ]</p>

basil fawlty
19th Jan 2002, 15:03
Very sad to hear this news.
The financial terms actually seem very good compared to other redundancy/severance packages.(usually no more than the legal minimum of one week per year)
I think that the disparity between the flight engineer and ground engineer "deals" is not at all fair, but as I have said before, aircraft engineers will never improve their pay, conditions, status etc. while they are represented by the same body that represents electricians, plumbers, assembly workers and such like.

19th Jan 2002, 20:09
Do not whatever you do , get involved with BALPA.
Use a reliable union, i suggest you lot join the TGWU as they have far more experience in this sort of situation than that other bunch of stargazers who will just take your money , and do NOTHING because they have a very cosy relationship with Airline management. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

19th Jan 2002, 20:36
This is a horrible surprise for the MAN people. But.....before getting too indignant, let's spare athought for the tens and hundreds of thousands who have just lost their jobs with a statutory package. One or one and a half weeks per year of service, capped at something like 240 per week.

So it's still crap, but there are some (and there will be more) doing a lot worse.

<img src="frown.gif" border="0">

speed check
20th Jan 2002, 15:56
M.Mouse you dont know what your talking about.Labotomy Yeh <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

20th Jan 2002, 18:20
OK speedcheck, I posted what I understood to be the facts. Perhaps rather than being gratuitously rude you would be good enough to share your interpretation of what happened?

Secret Squirrel
21st Jan 2002, 04:34
Sorry to hear that, Hovis, I really am.

Yes, it might well be me in Feb as I work from LGW on shorthaul. I may be mistaken but I was told that as from April all UK companies will have to comply with EU law and offer a minimum of 4 weeks statutory pay for every year worked. This is probably why they are making the offer now rather than later. Can anyone verify or dispel this tidbit of information?

21st Jan 2002, 15:55
I am one of the many @ MAN. Letter landed today. It does only lay out those options. The biggest problem is the uncertainty. If the management had the balls to say "110 compulsary redundancies on 31st March", we could get on and work to that but they won't.

Another example of what we face, yes we have been offered jobs at CitiExpress around the country and on the IOM but because it is a BA subsidury, we don't get the severance, but because it is not British Airways Plc, we don't get relocation either, plus new contract date of joining and you have to leave the BA pension scheme for a money purchase scheme with CitiExpress.

Thin end of the wedge indeed.

Joyce Tick
21st Jan 2002, 16:08
Well Diablo - if enough people take the options you mention - then there wouldn't be any need for compulsories, would there? So why "come out" and say it if it's not necessarily true? We had the same problem recently and due to option takers, the number of forced redundancies was reduced by half.

Some wierdos (not necessarily you, Diablo)think that managers actually enjoy making people redundant - well I suppose it suits them to think that.

21st Jan 2002, 17:24
Diablo, Let me get this straight. Because your relocation would be to a Franchise i.e part of BA there is no relocation assistance. BUT with regard to all other aspects of employment such as date of joining, pension, contract etc it is considered NOT part of BA?! Is that what you are saying? Can it be legal to have things so blatently both ways?

Good luck to you.

21st Jan 2002, 23:11
Spot on Diesel. The crap we are being given is that because the BRAL and Brymon managers can't decide on a set of terms & conditions for the people who will form part of the merged operation (I think the change-over is end of March), they can't figure out what to do with any of us, and we have a lower priority. Also they are argueing the toss about who's budget any relocation would come out of. In the mean time we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

When Afghan airlines takes to the skies once more, I will be first in line with my C.V to get me as far from B.A. as possible.

Form an orderly que behind me. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

speed check
22nd Jan 2002, 00:41
M.Mouse maybe i was being a bit OTT but the facts are the pilots funded nothing it all.It all came from company funds and that is fact!.You make out that the B.A. pilot force are a giving bunch.If Balpa hadn't been so gready the classics would still be flying out of LGW today instead EAC will make a nice tidy profit and good luck to them. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Notso Fantastic
22nd Jan 2002, 01:07
Speed Check- you have an extraordinary nature! Without responding to insults, I will just state the facts:. . The BA pilot workforce agreed to fund the BA F/Es increased severance package above the new standard reduced package to the previously agreed arrangement cancelled subsequent to 9/11. . BALPA has not been greEdy! Considering we have taken the standard 2 year pay packages for umpteen years, along with all other staff, and have accepted BA's shenanigans with Scope and other agreements (Classic/777 bunks to name but two), I would say BALPA has been very co-operative.. . This is not the thread for you to air your prejudices. This BA pilot offers the personnel involved sympathy and best wishes.

22nd Jan 2002, 05:54
Secret Squirrel

I am not aware of EU directive on increasing minimum redundancy payments to that level and no doubt the CBI will fight such a bill to the death, however, government minimum redundancy payments are to be increased from 240 per week to 250 per week to take into account a cost of living expense this comes into force on 01st Feb 2002.

23rd Jan 2002, 01:43
Thanks for all the concern gents no really, I have been on this site for a long time and every topic that is raised just desends into a bunch of you having a go at each other. I think I am correct in thinking Hovis started this thread to publicise the fact that for the first time in the history of BA, they are going to make people REDUNDANT. This is the thin end of the wedge, beware.

Any constructive help on our plight would be most appreciated, but if you want to slag each other off start a new thread or go to jetblast, that is why it exists.

23rd Jan 2002, 17:50
First of all, to all that offered sympathy, I thank you.. .For those that were er...shall we say a bit tactless, You asked for contempt, you got it!

To straighten a few things out, There are approx 100 staff at MAN now in possesion of "the letter".. .The jobs on offer number about 20, that leaves about 80 with no option but to take the severance.. .That is Compulsary in all but name.

If it is true that the pilots, through BALPA, funded the FEs better offer, then why have the company refused to negotiate a similar deal with the engineers through the AEEU/MSF (now AMICUS)?

There are other departments,(tug drivers, dispatchers, check in etc), working O/T at MAN that obviously require more personel, again this is "not for negotiation".


It takes years to train a licensed engineer, (longer than a pilot?) and almost as long to train an unlicensed technician, but a matter of weeks/months to train in these other areas. Surely it makes sense to hang on to the people that you have invested a lot of money in ready for the upturn.. .This in no way demeans the jobs of others it is just a fact.

The company are trying to have their cake and eat it when you consider the situation regarding relocation.. .If it is within the BA group surely it qualifies for the relocation package as stipulated in the employment guide.. .If it is not within the BA group then the severance package must apply, which way is it?

The handfull of jobs at BHX are a JOB SWAP with no relocation, I know some in the south think that "up north is just up north" but relocating to BHX will cost!!. .There are engineers willing to go, whether it be Fraggle Rock, BHX or GLA but they just cannot afford it. Negative equity still exists in many areas, I cannot sell up buy a new house on a lower wage and still be paying off what I owe from the last place. It is economics, nothing more.. .The same applies to jobs at LHR, but we are not even being offered those!. .Similarly, the job swap option is only available at BHX, Why?

As for the unpaid leave, part time working etc that was offered to everyone in the company post 11/9 that has been ruled out for all at BA MAN Engineering.


The staff at MAN are not being beligerent, pig headed or bloody minded.. .They are just fed up with being treated like provincial yokels "who do not understand"(words of IR manager Karen E at a recent meeting at MAN).

By the way, The original announcement that the MAN hangar was to close and that a total of 120 were surplus was made on 5TH September 2001.

Spleen vented, thank you!. . <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: HOVIS ]</p>

GE 90
24th Jan 2002, 00:17
We seem to be suffering from Accountancy overload. It may be the way things are happening outside the industry but why should that be how it is done inside. If we lose any more engineering experience (like MAN) we will not be able to keep the aircraft in the air. . .The way BA treated the Cityflier engineers that were coming over caused many of them to seek employment elsewhere. Now we have the situation of 14 days to change an engine. That is because we lost 5 engineers. Not many as a percentage of total engineers at LGW but that is how accountants see us. . .Now that you have seen what can happen to engineers what will happen to pilots. After all we have a requirement for X pilots so who cares what they can fly?

25th Jan 2002, 02:00
Who can feel anything less than outrage at what our colleagues in MAN are having to endure. It seems to me that, even though this would seem to be a case of departmental mismanagement, the writing is on the wall for the rest of us. The "Wet one" and his accolyte "the Peeved" will surely fall after this debacle!. . . .HOVIS--Whatever the Flight Engineers secured as a severance is entirely incidental to your predicament. If their pilot colleagues financed an enhanced severance then so be it. End of story. Remember, that as a licensed aircraft engineer you are probably more valuable in the job market than a flight Engineer. They will struggle to find work in the long term but you, god willing , will be ideally placed come the inevitable upturn.. .Support from BALPA? BALPA looks after IT'S membership and rightly so. Flight crews pay a premium for representation (1% of basic) and get the appropriate representation. Perhaps we all get the representation we deserve!. .Finally, to those employment law experts who SEEM to have all the info on compulsory redundancy payments--Is not the weekly wage figure quoted a MAXIMUM as opposed to a MINIMUM?

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: screwdriver ]

[ 25 January 2002: Message edited by: screwdriver ]</p>

25th Jan 2002, 19:12
DIABLO/HOVIS regretably this is not the first time that compulsary redundancy has been used.

26th Jan 2002, 19:55
WHAT BOLT. Er.. I think you will find it is. Within BA there has never been compulsary redundancies, that is why many have accepted an inferior pay packet in exchange for job security!!!. .Part of the problem in trying to sort out a predicament such as the one at MAN is that there is no precedent and therefore policy is being made on the hoof with the consequencies as already mentioned.

If you can give an example of compulsary at BA in any dept please do and I will publicly stand corrected.

Banzai Chap
28th Jan 2002, 00:40

Good luck, i wouldn't go to BHX if i where you.. .Don't forget BA is in the process of shafting BA Staff at BHX as well with the merger of BAR into BRAL. This means in effect that they will be offered T+C's on BRAL rates not BAR. This is. .not against any BRAL Pilots but i'm sure they'd get the hump if they got merged into Airline X with less generous T+C's. . .Its cust another accounting exercise against what was a dedicated workforce.

basil fawlty
28th Jan 2002, 05:30
screwdriver,. .E/O's will struggle to find work will they?. .Let me tell you that I'm still an employed flight engineer, but the time will inevitably come in the not too distant future when I shall have to find alternative employment. I will NOT have the benefit of a 100k+ severence package. Many F/E's will not find flying jobs again, but I understand that Tescos recruit on an on-going basis, plenty of work around if you look for it! Are you saying that the ex BA F/E's shouldn't have to go out and do an "ordinary" job like millions of other people? I hope I don't, but I am prepared to do so if I need to.

29th Jan 2002, 00:25
HOVIS-in the summer of 1990 two men were instructed to attend a meeting at which they were told the manning levels had been changed and that they were no longer required. Neither were given any prior warning of the purpose of the interview. Both men had 25 years service and approx 7 years left to normal retirement. They were told that because of their age redeployment would not be an option. Both were then taken to the next office where their severance packages awaited them. I know of other similar cases .

31st Jan 2002, 17:24
What bolt. .That is still not exactly compulsary redundancy in the eyes of the law.. .If they were offered a severance package then they signed a declaration to the effect that they left employment "of their own free will".. .IE they volunteered to leave.

By the way, If they had 25 years service then back in those days an uncapped severance would be very nice indeed! . .I would certainly go now if I was offered the same arrangements.

Thanks for the gen anyway!

1st Feb 2002, 01:07
Basil Faulty. .I should have said that all F/Es will struggle to find work as F/Es in the future. Good luck when the time comes. Did they really get 100+K.

basil fawlty
1st Feb 2002, 02:17
Screwdriver,. .Yes, even the most junior F/E at BA has 20 odd years with the company. most of the rest around the 30 mark. 4 weeks salary per year, uncapped....I bet most of them had their pension contributions made up too. I'm not against this in principle, these guys have given their whole working lives to one company, but the MAN guys are getting very little in comparison and that stinks. The rest of us? well we're going to be out in the wilderness one day soon with a package worth a fraction of that. C'est la vie! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

1st Feb 2002, 13:35

You have hit the nail on the head there, thank you for the support.

The good news, if you can call it that, is that the cut off date has moved back to 22nd February.

The offers have not been improved but at least the blokes involved will, by then, have more info to make a decision.

Thanks for all your comments.

[ 01 February 2002: Message edited by: HOVIS ]</p>

1st Feb 2002, 15:46
Hovis, unfortunately, this is not the first time people have been made redundant by BA. In Sept 1982, all of the Engineering Apprentices were given Dear John letters as their services were not needed.. .This also happened to the Apprentices finishing in March 83 and Sept 83.. .This was done for purely financial reasons, as they did not offer a job contract and so didnt have to pay redundancy monies. . .I know because I was one of them, fully trained but with 'no experiance' as the job market saw it. A catch 22 situation.. .Good luck to anyone out there who will soon be without a job, keep in touch with the company though as they do seem to be fairly good at taking people back when times get better.. .(Often as a consultant, doing your old jod for twice the dosh!)

1st Feb 2002, 16:02
SIDEWINDER. .Hey! watch this "man of vision" at the Helm of BA he signed off on a CRJ deal and sent Ansett Australia into bankruptcy.

Ali Crom
1st Feb 2002, 19:20
British Airways plots new flight plan. .Mid-February Investor Day update promises changes . . . .By Emily Church, CBS.MarketWatch.com. .Last Update: 10:40 AM ET Jan. 31, 2002

[quote] Future Size and Shape is also the make-or-break moment for Rod Eddington, the straight-talking Australian who replaced the urbane and ultimately isolated Bob Ayling two years ago.

Eddington has restored shattered staff morale despite job cuts and brought bold thinking to bear in abandoning routes like politically important Belfast, Northern Ireland where it lost millions every year.


See, someone thinks he's doing a good job. She obviously didn't speak to any of the Engineers when she wrote about the alledged "restored shattered staff morale".

1st Feb 2002, 21:35
Feetwet,. .If I remember rightly all the apprentii at the time were redeployed throughout the airline, some became stewards others worked up in revenue accounts, some became cleaners and baggage handlers! . .This was only a temporary thing and most (but by no means all), came back into engineering within 2 or 3 years.

Whether or not you can call that compulsory or not can be debated all night but at least they had the chance to be redeployed THROUGHOUT the company! Which is not the case at MAN.

I get your drift though - thanks.

2nd Feb 2002, 00:24
Banzai Chap, BAR are'nt being merged into BRAL. BA bought BRAL and merged them with Brymon to form BA CitiExpress. Post 11 Sep BA decided to lump BAR into CitiExpress and we went from profit to loss in a heartbeat!

2nd Feb 2002, 04:41

And your point exactly is?

2nd Feb 2002, 16:18
Just what I said-BAR are not part of BRAL, they are now part of CitiExpress, which is made up of the formerly profitable BRAL and Brymon!. .Clear enough?

Hand Solo
2nd Feb 2002, 22:21
At the risk of some gross thread creep here, I should like to point out that within BAR, BHX made a greater profit than the loss made at MAN, which in simple terms means the BAR group made a profit. BACE doesn't exist as a single entity yet, and BAR was only handed over to the 'BACE' management after Sept 11th, so if you're making a loss now don't blame us, it's your own fault!

Also, if your firm is so radically efficient would you care to explain why we have to park an A319 at EDI all day just to provide work for one of your Emb145s that would otherwise be redundant? Something to do with the management wanting to shift the cost of an unnecessary aircraft from BACE to BAR perhaps?

[ 02 February 2002: Message edited by: Hand Solo ]</p>

3rd Feb 2002, 02:05
OK but BACE not our idea. Lets look at who the managers in BACE are and you see the main players are BA/BAR. Facts are we(BRAL and Brymon)were profitable by ourselves until BAR was 'given'to us! No amount of BA spin and BS can change that but a BA management structure has.