Am I ignorant?FO wages and progress files

[thecoltster]

Hi

I've just started just the JAR ATPL's at a modular school on the south coast of England, and as I started at this stage the rest of the class have been together since starting their PPL. They've forked out alot of money to do the whole thing and they’re all really great guys but some of the things a couple of them say/believe surprises me, I get the impression that some of them believe that they're going to get a right hand seat to fill a desperate shortage in a Jet straight away and make lots of money? (e.g. one guy quoted £72,000 starting wage for a Ryanair FO??....surely not???-I tried to find out if this was a true figure....can anybody confirm?) and live happily ever after! Of course we all hope that this will be the case however I'm pretty sure a CPL IR MCC 230 hrs doesn't automatically mean your going to get a seat straight away.And that other avenues might have to be pursued before we get our hands on the thrust levers of a 777! I was surprised when somebody tried to tell me that the course they/we were on was integrated, and proceeded to tell me that as I'd started the ATPL's there I was obliged to do the rest with the school and that he only needed 70hrs P1 to get CPL issue, and that you can't do an IR on a single if you wished?? This is coming from someone who's spent thousands!What a load a CRAP!?? Or am I also being arrogant in assuming that I am right?

I'm not in this game for the £££ so wouldn't be overly fussed at an average wage through life but surely the figures I mentioned are more akin to a captain? Any ideas?

The school also has 'personal files' on all its students, does anyone know how personal they are and how often employers get in touch with the schools to use these as references?

If anyone could put me straight/correct me on any of the things mentioned I'd be grateful,

thanks

COLTSTER

[Pilot Pete]

Coltster

It would appear you have a much more realistic outlook on job prospects at the end of training. Point your associates in the direction of Pprune and get them to read the numerous threads that have appeared on the subject over the months.

As for Ryanair, yeah they do pay well and you may find a 'package' figure taking into account all sorts of benefits does look quite high, can't comment on your £70k figure, but I doubt you will get a rhs with them with 250hrs. As far as I am aware they still want a type rating with experience.

It is extremely tough to get employment of any sort after qualification, just look at the number of people who go and do an instructor rating after getting a CPL/IR issued with 250hrs.

Good luck

PP

[AMS]

Hi there,

I have a very clse MENTOR who currently is Captain for Ryanair, and I asked him this question, only to be told that as a newly qualified pilot..would not really become a FO he/she would become a Second F/O and then would have to do their own Type Rating and the MCC course to start earning approx 27-30K a year..this figure was approx.

Thanks

AMS

I can say on thing that Ryan Air Routes from LTN to DUB are cool ..and real hands On!!

[Genghis McCann]

AMS - An excellent reply. theColtster - I think you are probably about right. Your mates are sadly living in a fantasy world. It is true that some airlines take on 509ers (usually at great expense to the individual) but the reality is that what gets you jobs is hours, hours or hours. Every now and again BM and others pick up very low hours people as indeed do some of the regionals but only when they cannot get hold of higher qualified candidates. It is simply not true to say there are load of jet jobs out there and empty cockpits around the place. Many turboprop pilots are simply getting nowhere in their efforts to get onto jets and they are realistically ahead of your mates in the queue.

Just to give you some sense of perspective - I am a regional turboprop captain and like virtually everyone in my company have been applying for jobs over the winter. Ryanair have not offered anything to any of our pilots and easyJet have given 3 guys jobs. Bear in mind that every one of us have at least 1500 hours turbine and some are already captains. Apart from easyJet which looks like taking a lot of people, virtually no one is getting a sniff. The really depressing thing is that even our company are taking on Aussies, Kiwis, South Africans, Zimbabweans etc etc. They are turning up here with 3000 hours VFR somewhere and are getting jobs. I know a number of highly-qualified pilots (1500 hours +, MCC, multi-rating +IR) who are not getting a single interview anywhere with anyone. The instructor rating is a smart move but do not be fooled about tales of a land of milk and honey because it is not true.

For what it is worth though, I appeared out of training a few years ago with 270 hours and a turboprop company gave me a job straight away for which I was exceedingly grateful and lots of guys with more hours bleated and whined. So you may get lucky but be prepared for a few disappointments. Best of luck anyway.

[Going Around & Around]

At the risk of yet again sounding the "ooh aren't they great" siren, the IPA do produce a salary sheet for pilots and while it is probably not totally up to date or to the pound accurate, it will certainly give some of your mates with clouds for hair a better grasp on reality.
Looking through the most recent one I have, it seems that basic FO salary jet is in the region of 28 to 35k. Obviously add to this flight duty pay etc.
However, for your colleagues to be thinking of even this kind of money is a bit pie in the sky. Of the people I completed my ab-initio course with early last year, only about 2/3 have jobs and only 2 of those are flying jets! The basic turboprop salaries are roughly around 18 to 25k.
Don't kill me on these figures guys, they are very much a rough guide (I know there are always exceptions).

Basically, what I'm saying is, fine... most people, while training, want to get their hands on something big, shiny and glamorous that you fly with a Mach meter, but you are in a far better position if you are realistic and really concentrate your job hunting on the more likely options.

I'm sorry to say that jobs are few and far between for those of us with low hours (I'm still below 200) but they are there, I've just got one! Be persistent, lucky and don't only post CVs to the big boys BA, BM, Aer Lingus etc. By thinking about this you are already a step ahead of your overambitious mates. Although telling birds you'll be earning 70k in a year's time is more impressive!!
Additionally with so little previous experience, personally I believe that there's a lot to be said for flying something with more pilot input than a A/P on/off, heading, altitude selectors and config controls.
All being well, you have a good number of years to pursue that dream when your experience is more suited to the larger airlines' requirements. Number 1 - get your foot on the ladder!

All the best!

[thecoltster]

Thank you for your replies guys, it's really helped put things into perspective. It's good to hear that I'm not too far off the general scent, and that I'm not expecting too much too soon. I'm only a young gun of 21 so have plenty of time to work my way up by the looks of things!! It is good to hear that that there can in fact be a 'golden pot' at the end of the rainbow as long as I'm prepared to spend a while getting to it. I think I read your thread Pilot Pete about your new job-congrats! Go around's and Genghis experiences sound equally encouraging. I've got a little way to go still but plenty of time and determination, so lets wait and see!

Thanks again for your help and best of luck with your new jobs etc,


COLT

[This message has been edited by thecoltster (edited 14 February 2001).]