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View Full Version : bmi moves to Belfast Harbour


LabyrinthMan
1st Aug 2001, 20:53
just heard that bmi will announce tomorrow that they are moving their flights from BFS to BHD...

can't wait to see the A321 trying to get in/out of BHD! :eek:

chiglet
1st Aug 2001, 23:24
Nobody EVER believes me :(
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

SussexPSR
2nd Aug 2001, 00:56
JY used a Transaer A320 on LGW-BHD flights over the Christmas hols in 93...has to be parked on a distant stand (something to do with the jet blast damaging the then fragile terminal)

keepitlit
2nd Aug 2001, 02:21
"can't wait to see the A321 trying to get in/out of BHD!"
Boys boys boys how many times have i to tell you,performance on the bus going into BHD is not a problem.
I tell you what come over in october and i'll show you the perf. book

Read it and weep :p

Rgds K.I.L.

RT
2nd Aug 2001, 07:26
Also nice new A320 stand markings at the shiny new terminal at BHD-so no more remote parking. Co-incidence or what!

Jacksman
2nd Aug 2001, 11:03
Have fun BMI mates with BHD, despite having a brand new terminal they have not spent out on taxiways and a huge backtrack for 22 departure is still required. The runway is as rough as a badgers bum to say the very least and not drained well.
We on the CRJ at British European are very very careful here as there is no room for error.We rarely flex and on the occasions we do I often wonder if we could stop when the other seat calls V1.

Also the departures are very busy with a stop at 3000ft to stay below BFS traffic and a noise abatement procedure like BHX - designed not to fly over the wealthy folks houses!. The early track change after T/O from 04 is an example. The SID's date back to BHD's turboprop origins and neeed a change. That apart the ATC are very friendly and handling is very good - enjoy.

aviaraptor
2nd Aug 2001, 15:07
Never mind departures even with 04 up the lough and a tailwind. What about that nice short landing - hope the thrust reversers and brakes are good on the A321, and that the runway is always bare and dry. I seem to recall that JEA had a little mishap with a 146 there a while back on a wet runway. Hope the bmi boys don't land long - at least there's not a petrol station at the end of the runway as Southwest discovered at Burbank. The safety margin of error is surely reduced when you are used to having 2800 metres to play with and a CAT3b ILS as opposed to 1760m and an uncategorised/almost CAT 1 at BHD.

Copenhagen
2nd Aug 2001, 15:59
Announced on their website... its true...

Another pain in the side for JY... Thats another very profitable market they had all to themselves gone down the plug hole.

[ 02 August 2001: Message edited by: Copenhagen ]

Copenhagen
2nd Aug 2001, 16:03
bmi british midland announces major initiative for Northern Ireland travellers


bmi british midland has demonstrated its commitment to air travellers in Northern Ireland with the announcement of a major upgrading of facilities with the transfer of bmi services to Belfast City Airport. The move to the City Airport will also provide greater choice for travellers to London Heathrow from Belfast.

With the start of the carrier’s winter timetable on 28 October 2001, bmi customers will be able to take advantage of the new purpose built state-of-the art terminal facilities at Belfast City Airport. An investment programme over the coming years will see the development of additional facilities, including lounges, tailored specifically to meet the future needs of bmi travellers.

Austin Reid, chief executive officer, bmi british midland said:

"Air travel remains extremely competitive and we have for some time been looking at ways of upgrading and improving our services for our customers in and out of Northern Ireland.

“We believe that our move to Belfast City Airport will provide us with all of the opportunities we need to give travellers the highest levels of service. We will also now be able to offer the consumer a greater choice when flying to London Heathrow. The location of the airport and its proximity to where our customers originate gives it tremendous appeal, which we anticipate will also attract an even greater number of passengers to bmi. Motorways and public transport also make access to the airport extremely good.

"Nearly 70 percent of all of the passengers flying to Heathrow choose to fly with us, so it is vital that we take into account their future needs. The investment programme we are committing to, in partnership with the airport, will enable us to do just that. They will be able to enjoy the very best both on the ground and in the air."

All staff employed by bmi british midland at Belfast International Airport will be transferring to the airline's new home at Belfast City Airport, where work is set to commence in time for the transfer of services on 28 October 2001.

BavarianBoy
2nd Aug 2001, 18:35
As Copenhagen says.... OUCH for Jy /BE!! now let me think, travel in a shiny spacious 321 or a 20 yr old air france couloured 146...Hmmmmm!! BHD to LCY couldbe in trouble.
I guess the competition may wake BE up mind you (EXT that is )

Captain-Ireland
2nd Aug 2001, 20:42
I was down at BHD the other day. Seen the markings on the stands for the A320. First impression was NO WAY! How are they going to get A320's in and out of BHD without killing everyone in the process. You are right about the fragile terminal. I remember the days when BHD was just a one room shead with a couple of desks. Mind you that was only six months ago (heh) so so its been worse in the past. Good to see the new terminal up and running and a nice new website too. Someone's been spending money. I have just one question though. How come its not listed as a customs airport? Since they are doing international flights to CDG they must have customs no????

Captain-Ireland
2nd Aug 2001, 20:47
Oh yes and one other thing. How come we dont have a belfast city flying club yet??? Would be handy instead of trapsing out the newtownards or aldergrove all the time.. Possible investment opportunity there for any one with the cash to spend.

Happy Flying.

Jacksman
2nd Aug 2001, 21:21
Captain-Ireland says re BHD's new terminal - "someones been spending some money!"

- yes Bombardier of Canada who own the airport upgraded the place as part of the CRJ and Dash 8/200,300,400 deal paid for by good old British European, who this year awarded the staff a 0% payrise because they are skint!

note: Bombardier purchased the aerodrome from Shorts some years ago with a clause that no aircraft would ever be final assembled at that location after the last Tucanno flew the nest! - what ever happened to made in Great Britain?

Electric Sky
2nd Aug 2001, 22:01
bmi must have done their homework on this one so I don't think this constant reference to A321s into BHD is an issue. However, I do think it is a risk moving to an airport with such limited landing facilities. Aldergrove's CAT III sees a fair bit of use during the winter months.

ES ;)

Zeroflap
2nd Aug 2001, 22:26
I think the move is great news for everyone, except the greedy bu&&ers at TBI, the owners of BFS.
BFS has become nothing more than a shopping mall, with zig-zagging corridors forcing people through shops, and of course, with the expansion of the low cost operators, the whole Airport has become more like a Sunday market.
It's only a matter of time until BA relocate lock, stock and barrel to BHD and I am sure the runway and instrument facilities will be updated as required.
On the subject of low vis, rtemember that BHD sits at sea level where as BFS is 250ft up, at the bottom of a basin. Therefore BHD is much less affected over the winter months than BFS.

682ft AMSL
2nd Aug 2001, 22:31
I notice that the press release gave no details of EMA-BFS, which must surely be switching to BHD as a result? Also, no details of new MAN/LBA-BHD routes which you'd think would also have been mentioned -if they were happening?

Finally, it's interesting that the press release quotes that bmi's share of the BFS-LHR market as 70%. With this equating to over 700k pax per year, I can't imagine TBI are too chuffed about the move!

682

LTN man
3rd Aug 2001, 01:17
With BHD closing at 21.30 will BMI be cutting back on flights? :confused:

carlos vandango
3rd Aug 2001, 03:17
Yes they're reducing to 7 per day.

Gulf Babe
3rd Aug 2001, 06:52
I travel between LHR and BFS on ID90, I want to know, is BMI going to stop there BFS Fights :confused:

Patsy 001
3rd Aug 2001, 13:55
Seems like good news for BHD.

As to the debate regarding the ability of an airbus getting into the city, I would imagine it is something that has been carefully considered by BMI. There definitely is not the same margin for error at BHD

Jacksman, that is not entirely true - Bombardier purchased Short Brothers plc from the British government in the late 80's, with the airport being part of Shorts. Shorts is now a division of Bombardier Aerospace.

Captain Ireland - the flying club is a good idea and probably would be operationally feasible considering the UAS operated from there until it closed in the mid 90's (not sure exactly but I started UUJ in 1995 and was told that there would be no further intakes to the squadron).

Good Luck!

controller friendly
3rd Aug 2001, 14:25
G.B.
Yes,bmi are moving the whole operation to BHD ,so if you travel ID90 you no longer have the flexibility of the 2 airlines.
Good Luck :(

MaximumPete
3rd Aug 2001, 19:59
Is the greasy spoon still there?

kiwi1
4th Aug 2001, 12:12
Went there yesterday on lates, landed where I should for a change, and made the intersection, Tower says "Oh you're practicing for City then are you", fair comment I suppose. This then brought it all to our minds so we looked at the perf books (in a A320 yesterday) and it seemed all OK. R/W 1821m long (I believe that was the figure) so about 70m shorter than the x-vector at BFS, which is fine, but no mucking around searching for the nice touchdown, just plonk it down. Other couple of interesting "facts/statements" from some of the locals over there:

1. 60% or so of the pop. of NI, live within 15 miles of BHD, much more than within 15 miles of BFS.

2. The ILS is APPARENTLY having an upgrade to CATIIIA by late this yr, before winter.

Bus. pax should love it, much closer, but some of the staff aren't quite so sure, they are all very happily installed around BFS.

Cheers, Safe Flying
Kiwi1 :p :D

RT
4th Aug 2001, 13:31
Kiwi1
I`ve also heard the CAT III rumour from a reliable source.
Hope every one enjoys the kind Southerly winds blowing over the Holywood hills on a dark Winter`s night !

AffirmBrest
4th Aug 2001, 14:26
Suspect Belfast's popularity(?) as a training route will diminish somewhat...

MAN-BHD is in the pipeline, according to Austin Reid (makes sense I 'spose)

Cat 3 not likely till next yr - and then you know how long it takes for work like that to get finished. Anyway, in FG I'd prefer to have BFS as an alternate to BHD than the other way around!

More needed is a parallel taxiway - big backtrack = delay & pain ITA

Am more annoyed about loss of the Hilton at Templepatrick as the crew hotel - nice place..

Anne.Nonymous
4th Aug 2001, 14:31
TBI got too greedy charging bmi £9+ per passenger against £3 for Go and Greasy!
Glad to see they paid for it with a 14p fall in the share price today!
Reliably informed that only the B737 will have weight restriction out of BHD and that 320 can happily carry round trip LHR fuel plus a full load of pax out of BHD.
With Catlll in autumn it will be a good operation - just think of the savings on diversion fuel as BFS becomes the No.1 instead of GLA! :p

euroboy
4th Aug 2001, 19:26
Would bmi be eyeing up British European for a merger? They did this to Business Air started the EMA-EDI with a Fokker while Business Air used a SAAB then next thing we know we get British Midland Commuter.

controller friendly
4th Aug 2001, 20:36
Kiwi
Question,by x-vector at BFS do you mean the intersection?
Sorry for my ignorance but i'm only an ATCO!!
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

gul dukat
4th Aug 2001, 23:19
Hey Anne ! what makes you think that BFS would accept you in the event of not getting in to the Harbour? Rumours like that have already circulated ! windy ...too foggy ? BMI ? try dub or gla! From a scource high up as well !! :eek: Apron might be too full to accept you back except in an emergency
:D

[ 04 August 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]

Chirpy Pilot
4th Aug 2001, 23:49
Surprised by this announcement. Local residents I believe where assured that only turbo props and the 146 could use the City Airport due to noise restrictions. As I fly into BHD frequently and having lived 25 years close to there even with the opening of the new terminal surely there still is a problem with congestion. Is the Airbus and 737 quetier now than the 146 even with a reduced power setting

Busta Level
4th Aug 2001, 23:56
gul dukat : fine - quite happy to go to DUB (and give them our landing fees) instead if BFS is going to be that petty. Sums up the entire airport really. Pathetic attitude to take. :mad:

gul dukat
5th Aug 2001, 01:58
Busta ...yep! but what can say to 198 business guys who have a bus run back to Belfast? :rolleyes:

controller friendly
5th Aug 2001, 03:01
Busta
Whilst i don't agree with such pettiness on the grounds of safety,we'll not even start talking about attitudes here!
Stated earlier bmi are charged £9 per passenger while EZY & GOE a much smaller amount.If bmi got the same reduced service as the others then maybe they would have something really to moan about.
bmi have really thrown their toys outta the pram on this one.Why didn't they move last year?Would they be moving at all if there wasn't a big bright,shiny new terminal waiting for them,which incidentally,another airline,not doing so well at the minute, helped finance?
They were no longer the big fish at BFS & they are now moving somewhere were they will be!
I only hope it doesn't spell the end for BE, not that the powers at BHD would care now.
:( :( :(

Anne.Nonymous
5th Aug 2001, 03:48
bmi had been investing heavily in lounges, new offices etc at BFS and had, by far, the largest volume of pax and cargo out of BFS. They have been negotiating for more than a year for lower fees but to no avail. Its not a question of throwing toys out of pram but hard, logical business decision making. It was TBI who thought they could continue to screw bmi and are now realising what a mistake they have made - certainly their shareholders will be asking questions!
Those who know bmi from inside will also know that "shiny new terminals" mean little when it comes down to brass tacks. Look at bmi in MME or LBA!
My sympathy goes to the bmi employees who will have to struggle through the city traffic to get to BHD each day.

Propped Out
5th Aug 2001, 15:38
Why, whats happening with Bmi at LBA?

kiwi1
5th Aug 2001, 16:28
Controller Friendly, no/yes I meant the other Runway at BFS orientation north - south (approx), at 90 degrees to the 25/07 runway. Comments regarding no more training anymore are about right, BFS excellent for it, taught you about managing your speed and height after being sppon fed at LHR (well certainly taught me after I stuffed it up a few times, the normal high/fast :D ).

However on we go. Bit tired this a/noon, been to CFU last night, on a charter that left on-time, and got back within 5 mins of schedule, after 10 mins in the hold at BIG, that never ever happens to me, so quite pleased ! ;)

AffirmBrest
6th Aug 2001, 12:11
You got back from CFU just in time, mate - we got back 1hr late and I have slept for just about 24hrs..

Can you go fatigued on a day off?

If BFS will only accept us in emergencies then we will just have to jolly well declare one and let them worry about the paperwork - speshly since we'll only have 800kg of alternate fuel on board... :D

Can't use DUB as an alternate to BFS/BHD, or vice versa (I think)

[ 09 August 2001: Message edited by: AffirmBrest ]

Willie Eckerslike
8th Aug 2001, 20:07
Why all the fuss about the BHD R/W????

We're all Leeds veterans at bmi!

Phillipa Hole
8th Aug 2001, 21:05
BHD runway is in a terrible state with slippery concrete slabs left over from WW11! Hence the concern. If it rains in any great amount we aquaplane regardless of the given state of the runway. IT IS NASTY.

As far as the weather factor, I have been flying in and out of there several times a day for years and have only had to divert once, so low vis and cloud are not a problem, ask Controller Friendly she will tell you, although rather begrudgingly!!

If BE get its act together then the BMI move may actually assist the LCY route as any delay or tech problem on the bus may cause passengers to move to the LCY flight. BE is also placing a spare 146 in BHD with crews on standby.
I would like to think that this is good planning from EXT, but somehow I doubt it!!
:cool:

controller friendly
9th Aug 2001, 02:02
So much more i could say but i'd really be in danger of loosing my job!!
At least i don't mind making a fool of myself at parties/bbq's! :cool: :cool:

rhythm method
10th Aug 2001, 01:36
Controller Friendly! Ha! what a misnomer that is!

I'll be glad to go into BHD so as to not have to put up with your sarcy controlling comments in future! Believe the staff in radar and tower couldn't be more pleasant. Maybe you should move there and learn some of their radio manner!

:cool:

carlos vandango
10th Aug 2001, 02:26
When is a headwind not a headwind? Ans: when you're landing at BHD.
When is a runway 'slippery when wet?' Ans:when the BHD ATIS claims it is WET.
Good Luck BMI..you may need some by mid winter.

In the drink
10th Aug 2001, 16:16
rhythm method

Hey leave the BFS guys alone they got abuse from aircrew for years who didn’t even know they where Primary. As it was put to me by a retiring ATCO, four ears in the cockpit and two in the tower, it just means that the controller has to say everything twice.

When was the last time you visited ATC, any ATC unit? I think you’ll find it a little more than sitting on ones rear drinking coffee/tea and eating sodas (P in A, bless ya). I give them lots of respect, when the brown stuff hits N1 they get ya on the ground. I don’t think they get paid enough for the job…..

Yours
In the drink…
:p :p :p :p :p


P.S. Any parties coming up?

surface wind
11th Aug 2001, 00:38
No need for any ATCO at BFS to worry. You only have to look at the load factors on EZY and GOE to realise that BMI is yesterdays airline. They obviously can't compete with todays budget conscious businessman who doesn't want to fork out £300 rtn on a flight to LHR only to get stuck in the hold at BNN for about 30mins.

As for BHD they are loosing their British regional service to PF and PH cause they like wise can't compete with GOE. Who want to pay £240 rtn to Glasgow when they can pay around £60 rtn with GOE. The Scottish routes have been a rip off for years.

I also hear that Jea are stopping their SS route, and BRT will be pulling out of the GD route when GOE starts.

I think that leaves BMI their on their own and EZY with a load more pilots to pick up!!!!!

:D :D

Electric Sky
11th Aug 2001, 03:46
I think that everyone seems to be argueing either for or against bmi's decision. Well I am going to sit on the fence!! The facts are that bmi were getting charged something like £9 per passenger at BFS, yet Go and EZY were getting charged £3. Fair comment that bmi probably had an airbridge etc but for every A321 load (195 x £9) = £1755. If Go had an A321 they would be charged £585 per load. Today's airline industry is cut throat and I think that bmi were right to feel agrieved by this. However, as much as a move to BHD will hurt BFS, I just wonder if it will hurt bmi more?? Airlines such as Go and EZY are excellent for your average passenger as BA and bmi's fares sometimes border on ridiculous, but surely everyone should be playing on a level playing field.

ES ;)

Phillipa Hole
11th Aug 2001, 04:52
:p In the drink yes the controllers at BFS are generally very good but one or two are lousy, a certain watch springs to mind, lets face it the fact that they are still argueing with scotish is not a good reflection on their proffesionalisum.(sorry about the spelling but as a pilot I have just come back from the pub!!) ;) As you say the Sh.. does hit the N1 occasionally but guess who has to sorts it out first, guess who is the first at the scene of the accident. Dont try to slate RM, I'm sure like my self he has been predudiced against by BFS just because he is landing at BHD as opposed to BFS. :rolleyes:

keepitlit
11th Aug 2001, 14:47
Surface wind,
You sound perfectly balanced with a chip on each shoulder about bmi.
Can you not understand that the move was nothing to do with easy or go taking passengers,it was the relationship with BFS.

P.S. I'd rather fly test Pilot for Airfix than with easy. :D

surface wind
11th Aug 2001, 15:30
KeepItLit

Only balanced when not in the pub, chips, yes but only after 10 pints!!! :D

Phillipa Hole

Which Watch(s) are you talking about, as for Scottish everyone at BFS is just trying to protect their jobs

[ 11 August 2001: Message edited by: surface wind ]

controller friendly
11th Aug 2001, 23:32
In the drink

Thank you so much for jumping to my defence but i think you'll find that rm & ph are just trying to wind little old me up!!
U C they can always go the whole way when i'm on unless of course gorgeous should pitch up in the meantime! ;) ;)
Phillipa hole,if you wanna see how we get on with Scottish,you have the perfect opportunity this Thursday afternoon in the Crown.Beer,beer & more beer. :D :D everyone welcome!
And i think you'll find it's the guy's with the big hoses who get there first,i should know. ;) :rolleyes: ;)

[ 12 August 2001: Message edited by: controller friendly ]

keepitlit
12th Aug 2001, 18:15
Yeah baby(how you doin) ;)
Love to go on Thurs but on lates. :(

Rgds K.I.L.

idlereverse
13th Aug 2001, 15:07
:) KIL are you sure you are on lates? I thought you had an appointment with your mirror on Thursday afternoon? :D :D

keepitlit
13th Aug 2001, 16:20
Ah well you can only please some people some of the time!
What did i do to offend you idle?
Does I know your Julie Ahi!
Is it cause you've got no thrust and I can keepitlit. :D :D :D

Better to burn out than fade away :D

P.S Idle I love the way you hide behind your prunne idenity without an address or details.

[ 13 August 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]

deaf offender
14th Aug 2001, 00:48
On the same note as the BMI pullout to BHD, just heard that Sabena have binned their 3 x daily Brussels service from BFS, with effect from the start of the winter schedule.

Not surprised at the BMI move as TBI have become greedier & greedier recently, losing this particular battle with their own breed of arrogance.

They're hurting. Believe me.

The Sabena withdrawal will simply add salt to their wounds.

How ironic as well of course, that the current MD of BFS (Mr Albert Harrison) at one time held the same position at BHD ???

carlos vandango
14th Aug 2001, 20:31
The Sabena withdrawal has nothing to do wih TBI though..they are cutting 8 other routes at the same time.

Anne.Nonymous
15th Aug 2001, 01:14
See the other thread on this forum regarding the weakened TBI being bought out by a French company at a mere 90p / share! Does their money grabbing policy look so smart now?

controller friendly
15th Aug 2001, 18:59
Anne
As i don't personally work for TBI,i am by no means defending them,but as a business, surely they are not running airports for the fun of it, or just to provide the public with a service.
Also did the article on the other thread not state that Vinci had made an approach before bmi announced their move & they are still interested?
I notice with interest your bemoaning about another large airport owner a while back, i'll watch & see what you think about how Bombardier/Shorts run BHD.Needless to say you will definately need plenty of support & sheepskin there but do me a favour, don't take it out on ATC,it's not their fault.
Finally good luck to all you bmi guys & gals out there,i hope the move is everything you want it to be ;) ;)

camel trader
20th Aug 2001, 05:33
Lets hope we can all remain friends after all this childish bickering over which airport bmi operate from. Why are ATC so annoyed anyway as far as I know you are employed by the NATS.

RAFAT
21st Aug 2001, 08:49
I'd like to know as well!!! they seem very bitter about this for some reason. :confused:

keepitlit
21st Aug 2001, 14:41
I dont think friendly is bitter just correcting some points which others took up the wrong way! :rolleyes:
Respect to all AHI!!

P.S. Thrust idle I'm off to sit in front of the mirror to the rest of you that means lates.You are the weakest link goodbye :D :D :D

controller friendly
22nd Aug 2001, 02:25
Rafat
How nice to hear from you again and what a good day for you to reappear.....from what i heard from that one frequency i listen to (apparently)surface wind was 170 30 to 40kts & it's only August! :cool:
K.I.L.
Thanks for the post babe.
Apparently a bus did a spectacular go around on 17 today,may the force be with you ;)
Thinking of organising a local PPrune bash, what do ya think? :rolleyes:
If you've got another appointment with your mirror tomorrow,speak to you then :) :)

Electric Sky
22nd Aug 2001, 02:43
Controller Friendly

I think that ATC - pilot relationships are always very good.

PPrune is all about having opinions but I am surprised that you seem to have some very negative views towards bmi and their move to BHD. If it is right that you are employed by NATS, do you have a dislike to the company or is it just a genuine neutral view that you think bmi are making a commercial mistake?

ES ;)

controller friendly
22nd Aug 2001, 03:07
Electric Sky
As Keep It Lit has said i have no problems about bmi moving to BHD.
I do however,like yourself,wonder if it is the smartest move in the world.
Some people thought i had a problem when i was only stating what i knew was fact about what happens or certainly has happened in the past at BHD.While many bmi staff have gone to great pains to point out that the bus will have no problems on an 1829m runway, i personally for what it's worth think it does not leave much room for error.
Also as someone who once upon a time knelt on runway 22 at BHD with a plastic school issue ruler measuring snow....well what can i say.I also remember A JEA crew after getting a windshear report stating 'fog at LBA windshear at BHD,typical day then'
I have no problems with bmi in fact if i was ever going to Heathrow,they were always my first choice which now leads me on to my last point.It was stated i think by Kiwi that 60% of NI's population is within 15miles of BHD,first of all as BHD & BFS are only 12miles apart,then surely the same also stands for BFS.But the road structure in NI is horrendous to say the least & as BHD is for most the far side of Belfast,i think alot of people are just going to stick to the country roads & use BFS.
Unfortunately since bmi changed their corporate image they also seem to have forgotten that they too,once upon a time, were the one that was getting the cheap deal into BFS! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I think is is very sad that for a company who had such a long standing relationship with BFS that it has come to this
:( But,like you, i'm not so sure who will really suffer in the long term :confused:

[ 21 August 2001: Message edited by: controller friendly ]

keepitlit
22nd Aug 2001, 14:28
What was the cause of the go around on 17 for,I didint hear?
A BFS/BHD bash is a good idea,need good notice for the roster but I know a few up for that :D :D
Speak later got to go.(mirror time) :D

Rgds K.I.L. :D

rhythm method
22nd Aug 2001, 21:33
Controller Friendly,

YEE-HA! A bash in Belfast, let me know in advance so I can be sure I'm home.

Back to the original point of this thread, wouldn't really fancy trying to put a minibus onto BHD in the p*ssing rain and howling wind, and I could also see BA's figures start to recover once the move takes place. I know my usual taxi driver prefers to avoid the hassle of the Westlink, M3, and Sydenham carpark!!!

Speak to you soon kid! :cool:

:( ps what a bad result last night...still in mourning :rolleyes:

never_home
23rd Aug 2001, 02:13
Fascinating to hear about expansion of BHD!!!

I was with JEA until 1994. When I left to go to pastures greener, I sent in a voyage report about the state of the runway. Even then it could hardly handle the ever increasing thump of the 146. I can't imagine anyone took me seriously and upgraded the runway. After a couple of months of airbus landings ( which I seem to recall are double the weight of a 146) the runway will turn into a copy of the Thessalonika ramp - that is to say full of cracks and holes.

Anyone know if they've thought of that?

Electric Sky
23rd Aug 2001, 16:02
Controller Friendly

Fair points. I thought that you might have had some grievance with bmi but obviously that is not the case. The comment I agree with most is that it is very sad for both parties that it has come to this. Only time will tell if it is wise for bmi but my view is that although you state that BM once had it cheap at BFS as well, with competition so high today the company was left with little choice if they are being charged 3 times as much as some of their competitors. A slight bit more for the use of airbridges etc is acceptable but not to that extent. They did try to negotiate this with TBI but to no avail and I don't think that TBI ever expected bmi to pull out. I have worked it out and I think that an A321 can operate full from/to BHD but as many have said there is little margin for error and I wouldn't like to do it in a howling crosswind. :eek:

At least the cracks and holes in the runway allow for good drainage :D

ES ;)

The_Bean_Counter
23rd Aug 2001, 20:00
Did BMI get wind of a Ryanair arrival ?
http://www.unison.ie/business/stories.php3?ca=80&si=499738

keepitlit
24th Aug 2001, 00:44
Electric,
Just for info the A321 can take a Full Load out of BHD and enough fuel to get to Madrid or its just under 74 ton takeoff Mass with a flex of 45C
Me thinks thats a dame fine performance. :D

Rgds K.I.L.

P.S. Friendly whats the expected Block Alt on the new SIDs. ;)

carlos vandango
24th Aug 2001, 01:53
K.I.L I can appreciate your desire to operate from the wee airport being much closer to home but give it a month or two and you'll wish for the 2800 of proper tarmac up the road as opposed to 1800 of slippy concrete.

For Real. Aye.

keepitlit
24th Aug 2001, 16:12
Carlos,
Having worked out of BHD for 3 years knowing all the little problems I dont think they will change my mind. ;)
But I can see your point,looking at the A/C you fly :D

Rdgs K.I.L.

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]

[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]

aviaraptor
24th Aug 2001, 18:33
Never mind the performance criteria. what about the economics? I hear that the MOD are concerned about their many thousands of pax (soldiers and families) who currently use bmi having to use the less secure BHD. Perhaps we'll see a load more VC10s back at Aldergrove or perhaps easy will put some nice roundels on the fuse - OHMS.

Also another rumour going round is that two large NI corporate users have indicated to bmi that they aren't too chuffed about the move either. And finally, (allegedly) the travel trade have been told to restrict sales to less than 133 pax - so it's not likely to be a 'bus.

Now all that plus the fact bmi are only offering 7/8 of their existing capacity - it doesn't seem to stack up. Sir Michael must be sorely steamed - perhaps that's why the COO and the Service Director went (?).

dik dastardly
24th Aug 2001, 19:20
Word has it they downgraded from 321 to 320. Can't see a 737 being used..that really would set a cat amongst the pigeons especially with the LHR based guys that Join and Terminate.

keepitlit
25th Aug 2001, 02:45
Just a few pionts to add.

1."so it's not likely to be a 'bus".

Wrong,I have a copy of the program at hand and the 73 isnt on it.It will be used sometimes,when the bus is taken off for charters etc and the London rotation is still a 320.

2. I know of 2 146s....short field..."

Would you call 17 at BFS a REAL short field ?
Check out its distances avil!

3.As for the J/T people
We just go where the cards are delt and be grateful for the extra nights at home.
We still dont have the comfort of a base in BFS/BHD.That I can only dream of,in the mean time I'll just enjoy doing something that someone else is willing to give me money for. :D :D

allthenines
25th Aug 2001, 13:07
I know the figures look good for the Bus but even when you drive a 146 into the City on a crap night ........ :eek: I Know I've done it!

hopscotch
25th Aug 2001, 14:09
Keepitlit: glad to see you missing the point yet again! When barcode said “I know of at least 2 over-runs by 146s at BHD (and they're designed for REAL short fields)” I could see no implication that BHD was a short field, merely a statement of what the 146 was designed for and another statement of historically what had happened at BHD (the Capital 146 and the JEA 146).

However, as far as R/W 17 at Aldergrove is concerned, it is about the same length as 22/04 at City, but 17 is not normally used with the wind 90 degrees across the runway at 30 knots. The runway surfaces at Aldergrove are also of considerably higher quality than at City; I know where I would rather take my chances on a dark, wet night.

Finally, while we’re on the subject of crosswinds, a question: do the bmi First Officers have the same crosswind limit as the Captains?

keepitlit
25th Aug 2001, 14:29
Yes F/Os have a slightly reduced crosswind limit.

Guys,sorry I was only making a few comments about moving to BHD I didnt know it was a thread about superhero wannabees :D

Rgds K.I.L.

moleslayer
25th Aug 2001, 19:16
h-scotch: bmi F/O's X-wind Ldgs.

two-thirds of the max. allowable for the
prevailing conditions.

but of course it's Capt.s discretion!! :D

controller friendly
25th Aug 2001, 22:59
K.I.L.
As far as i'm aware,we will be climbing to 80 & scottish descending to 90.This is what some of our guys at the top have been trying to negotiate anyway.It's certainly an improvement from 6 & 7 which i believe was originally on the table,but nothing firm has been decided,i don't think that will happen til after the trial at the end of the year.
The departures won't actually be SID's but PDR's(Preferential Departure Routes)as apparently we would need another DME in NI before they can be classed as SID's.Mind you the amount of pilots who tell me they are departing on a standard LISBO departure..... there aint no such thing!
I believe we will be issuing clearances in the same way to BHD,though i may be wrong on that one,time will tell.
The whole point of this is to stop the crossover at the IOM when BFS are on 07 not progress as some may think! :confused:
If i hear anymore i will let you know ;)
Now i'm bored with this whole subject, what about that Belfast bash,i was thinking maybe October/November time,do you think anyone will be brave enough to show up :rolleyes:

[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: controller friendly ]

gul dukat
26th Aug 2001, 01:17
I'll come! KIL can buy me a beer ...rafat and I can discuss "Duffy 3.."and you and I can get smashed!! :D

controller friendly
26th Aug 2001, 03:12
Just for a change... :p :p

Not more toffee vodka! :cool: :cool:

keepitlit
26th Aug 2001, 03:28
i'll drink to that :D :D
Rgds K.I.L.

SPEEDBIRD5FP
26th Aug 2001, 20:45
DID U HERE THAT HEATHROW - BELFAST WILL BE TAKEN OFF AS A TRAINING ROUTE, GUESS WHY

Dr. Spin
27th Aug 2001, 02:20
A slight problem has come to light in the fact that the 320 has a max landing weight of about 54K into the Harbour on a wet, gusty day (more than 10kts gust)with the OEB in force for the ELACs. With a typical dry weight of 45K and 2 tons of fuel remaining on landing, this leaves room for only about 70 pax! :D

Max Angle
27th Aug 2001, 15:20
Dr Spin, thats good news indeed, perhaps they will put a 73 on it and leave us bus drivers to go somewhere warm and sunny like Madrid or Rome. As one of the people who is going to have to fly the new route I have to say I think our company has flipped it's lid. We must be bloody mad!.

keepitlit
27th Aug 2001, 15:32
Just use a 321 all the time :eek:

LondonGoodEvening
27th Aug 2001, 16:44
Right some of you I know quite well and some of you I don't know and to be quite honest, i'm not so impressed with you jumping on the BHD Bandwagon. Firstly, for all of us past and present the harbour airport is a demanding field at the best of times. It is this type of app and landing that for the most of us is the reason we enjoy operating the machines we drive so much. But on a dirty and wet night no matter what transport your looking out of for 22......you surely need your wits about you. Yes its true that the bus is a large transport that somehow won't look comfortable at the harbour. The facts speak, the figures are in, the 321 can respectfully carry its load in and out with a fine temperate flex thanks to those V25 engines. Furthermore to our debate, how many fine operators operated daily into Hong Kong's Kai Tak for decades without any major operating problems. And to add, thankfully our professional training and turbo experience boasts better odd's than that of some of our foreign conterparts. The real bitterness that shows here is that of some people feel that there lime light at the city is under review and understandably so and also their security...........

We're all on the same playing field whilst maybe on different teams.........
Lets get on with it... 22 at the city son! :cool: :cool: :cool:

aviaraptor
31st Aug 2001, 11:32
Interesting about Kai-Tak - look what they did there. They closed it down because it became - environmentally unacceptable and couldn't grow any further. Funny old thing thing Chep Lap Kok is built outside the town.

No matter how good you are surely, the margin for error is reduced when you there's only an un-categorised ILS, preferential (tailwind) 04 departures, numerous obstructions and a greasy old <1800m concrete runway. Size matters - 2800m and CAT3B must improve your chances on a grobbly night.

From the sentiment of the locals in down town Belfast they'd rather see "those big aeroplanes" out of town too - check out the recent editions of the Belfast Telegraph.

Doors to Automatic
31st Aug 2001, 18:08
Pardon my misunderstanding if there is one but isn't the runway at Belfast City the same length (give or take) as that at Aberdeen. The latter frequently handles aircraft up to A320/B757 size without (seemingly) any problem.

With this in mind what is the problem at BHD?

Deeko01
31st Aug 2001, 20:26
Doors to Automatic is very correct, I reckon this debate goes further than just BMI deciding to operate into BHD, like you say though there should be no problem with them operating in and out of BHD.

I worked there for 5 months and if there was one thing I reckon they could do to help all is to put parallel taxiways in because, what a pain in the arse it is if you are using 22 with a couple of inbounds having to vacate onto the GA parking area!

carlos vandango
31st Aug 2001, 21:23
Londongoodevening..
There is no bitterness shown from the drivers of the wee fat jet at BHD. BMI Can not threaten their job security any more than their own company already has. Most of them are trying to escape to the big airport or have already done so. As for performance..well that's all well and good but as you know when 22 is wet it can be as slippy as a oil slick in a vaseline factory.
Good luck.
ye will ye will ye will..ted

keepitlit
31st Aug 2001, 23:02
Carlos,
I hope all turns out well at BEA as I have some good friends there.

Good Luck

Rgds K.I.L.

Dougal did ya push the feckin button!! :D

high & fast
1st Sep 2001, 16:11
Latest rumour is that bmi are back in negotiations with TBI. A better deal has already been offered but it remains to be seen if bmi will accept and go back on their move to Belfast City.

keepitlit
1st Sep 2001, 20:15
Also heard this today :eek:

Rgds K.I.L.
:D

Dr. Spin
2nd Sep 2001, 23:44
___________.

gul dukat
3rd Sep 2001, 02:58
Heard that Ryanair were thinking of some twelve rotations to European destinations ? Lets have them !! BFS concerned about parking problems but big airbridge now free!! now ....About the GA!!

Bump_Thrust
3rd Sep 2001, 13:49
A local newspaper printed that Ryanair are in talks with BFS about starting up a Belfast - Brussles (Charleroi) to replace the Sabena service. Looks like low cost carriers could be the way to Europe from Belfast if this goes ahead. There are also rumours of EZY starting a service to Paris ORY when it sets up base there. That would be Paris, Amsterdam and Brussels all operated by the lost cost carriers!

Bono Vox
5th Sep 2001, 17:17
What wil happen all the locally based airbus crews now that bmi appear set to use b735s?

at least it means we can look forward to having Christmas day off.

camel trader
5th Sep 2001, 20:46
Who Knows? Just had it confirmed that it will be a 737-500 series on BHD all day. Looks good for any bmi 73 drivers who want to live in NI. As it's a change of airport the guys based their could be in the pooh. Oh dear. The futures bright, but not in Belfast!! :)

gul dukat
6th Sep 2001, 00:37
KIL!!! Does this mean that you have to travel a darn sight further now than the big airport to go to work ? will you have to move? can you fly a b737-500? Hope (sincerely )that you guys aren't about to be shafted as well ! Question for any Midl....sorry Bmi management out there.You now own a large lump of NATS ,your NATS controllers are sub contracted by TBI at BFS ,how come you are taking your business to NATS competitors? Is this a good way to show faith in your "staff"? :rolleyes:
Whilst I remember come the Christmas rush and Bmi usually have a flight about once an hour will the Harbour be able to park them all ?

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]

PPRuNe Towers
6th Sep 2001, 01:52
Sorry folks - hit the hundred on this one and time to close it. No problems if you want to create a Mark 11.