Still flying after Ansett & related stuff - Vol 2.

[Kaptin M]

Not a bad thread. even if some posters :O "let fly" at times :ouch:
It all adds to the spice tho'.

Clive, I enjoyed reading your last post on the other thread, and feel that it would be beneficial if you would copy & paste it again, on this one. It's been 14 years since "those days" in the Feds office at Brekky Creek where Clive often came bearing the weight of a young family and a heavily mortgaged house on his broad shoulders.
Without a doubt his strong religous faith helped his family immensely, and in spite of the financial position which weighed heavily on him, he stood by his moral principles while others with several freehold properties and a stosh in the bank did not.
For that Clive is to be COMMENDED.

Having worked back with the scabs, under a contract that threatened immediate dismissal for causing trouble (wrt the Dispute), I guess that it might be natural to assume that Clive may have been seen as a "scab sympathiser" by some - that is not my call.

[amos2]

When you were re-employed Clive, did you repay the money you had taken from the AFAPs welfare fund?

[Eastwest Loco]

Indeed Kap - an excellent thread with generally reasoned arguement, rather than bloodletting.

As to the comment regarding salaries of pilots compared to F/As, I do not ever dispute that what was said was very much correct.

Fact is that the pay scales were way out of whack with what the airlines were capable of producing at the time.

Yes - individual unions negotiated rates well above the station of the group of employees, and this caused more problems than it solved. There is no doubt the industry needed a serious restructure, which with the pertinent figures in front of us and a future path laid out, I am sure we would all have carefully embraced to find a logical level to keep everyone in work.

After Eenie Weenie was declared out of DPO (which I found out on the radio driving into Mooloolaba with Mrs Loco and the boys) I, having been transferred back to Traffic at DPO from Sales Manager Tas when that position went West in a restructure, cleared $2500.00 for my first fortnight there. It was insane, as were the hours.

We are all the victims of operational idiots and numerous lives have been changed forever by these lowlives, many of which one can still find in QF management.

Clive - thank you for an excellent and reasoned post. I have a feeling I may have met you somewhere back in the mists of time when aeroplanes had a white T or a big red A on the tail and all was right with the world, but cannot lock and load. Maybe buying Table Cape cheese on turnaround in the back room at TN Wynyard.

As for "sage" - I am not a rocket scientist Clive, just a very naughty load controller. Thank you for saying so. I have been called many things over the years but that is a first.

Best all - and thank you for at least opening the door a chink.

Amos - cool down please mate and best regards.

EWL

Ron Knight

[Clive]

As requested Kaptin......



posted 21st April 2003 03:07
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




A voice of Reason
Gentlemen,

Normally, like many posters to this thread have espoused, I prefer to steer clear of the “dead end street” of debate into the rights and wrongs of events leading up to the state of the aviation industry as we know it today. However in deference to EWL’s observation that many in this place may be experiencing an ebbing in the health sapping anger (on both sides) of years gone by, I would like to nurture this possibility by telling my story and making just a few comments/observations.

Firstly a declaration of interest – I am one of those described in this place as a member of the “dirty dozen”. I have never hidden behind an alias and have always used my real name when expressing my views here. Sadly that has effected my job prospects in this industry as I have been rejected at least once to my knowledge, since the demise of Ansett, on what I understand was on the basis of being a $cab sympathizer. I believe however that my position has given me a unique perspective in the entire sorry affair.

As a junior First Officer, at the time, the 18 months out of the only industry I was skilled in, and had ever known, in 89/90 was horrific to say the least. My survival was only secured through the generosity of colleagues (many whom I had never met) via the marriage/home/life saving concept of the welfare fund. The news, in late 1990, that AFAP court action had resulted in the interviewing of hundreds of those in a similar position to myself was more than exciting. But this joy soon became despair as most friends, and even my brother-in-law (who can attest to my reapplication date for the conspiracy theorists amongst us), were all gradually advised that they were unsuccessful. Why I was chosen I still don’t know to date… but as history shows, 12 (13 in fact) were, thankfully (or though many on this forum might say – sadly) I was one of them.

So after 18 months out of work, towing the union line, and keeping the faith, the joy of re-employment became a very difficult decision indeed. Contrary to Greybeard’s beliefs…..

“It doesn't matter when you went back, when you joined, all helped to allow the situation to develop to the current state of the Airline Industry in Australia.
I HOPE YOU ARE A PROUD LOT, YOU SURE DID WELL IN STUFFING UP AUSTRALIA.”

…… the only option for me was to leave the industry or accept the offer. The 18 months away from the flight deck made me all but unemployable overseas.

So where am I going with all this? Well the initial concept of “hatchet burying” was difficult indeed. Foe example one of the first Captains I flew with upon my return was from my original intake. My command (and I’m grateful for it – don’t get me wrong) came many many years later, but it did come contrary to my understanding of how I might be treated. Had I not got on with life, “laid my cards on the table and accepted my colleagues as mates again” as EWL so aptly put it, then I believe things would have been very different and I would either be out of the industry forever or in an early grave through stress related illness.

So I worked hard, accepted the new world order, gained my command and completed a couple of degrees as insurance against a similar episode. And yes a similar episode (although under vastly different conditions) has occurred. Thankfully I have work (in S.E. Asia) and am trying to get on with life - again.

For those I regard as mates most recently displaced by the dynamic nature of our industry I say this… the collapse of Ansett, and our lives with it, seems only days old even though it will soon be 2 years. Perhaps this will give an insight into why the “dispute” seems like yesterday to those most vocal on this forum. Particularly as many of us experience life away from home and family. The anger they express must surely be at least comprehensible as you feel anger towards Air New Zealand management, The Federal Govt., or Dixon (depending upon your theory of the collapse).

To those I have not had the pleasure knowing for many years, since the equally devastating event in our industry destroyed much of your lives, I understand your anger. But as poster after poster has said here… it does no good. I know you understand the desperation that has led to the suicides reported in this forum, and the life altering results these recent events enacted upon all stakeholders… not just the pilots. I also understand that to “kiss and make up” is nigh impossible. We must all agree this will not happen. What has happened has happened… what has been said has been said…. It’s too late to take it all back.

But it’s not too late for all to take a step back. Thank whichever higher being you believe in that you were not in the Sari Club having a drink a few short months ago, that you were not born into a loving family that found itself under a bomb in Kahbul, that you had not chosen a life as an accountant and been chosen to represent your company in its offices on the 95th floor of the World Trade Centre in late 2001, and that you are blessed with good health and hopefully a loving family.

I am lucky enough to find myself in such a position and I will continue to regard all those in Aviation as my mates (save some of those in management positions whose job description outstrips their abilities 10:1 and who make the “Peter Principle” look like HR policy). I suffer from bouts of anger and depression over the “what ifs” of this life, just as anyone would… if you don’t then check for a heartbeat.

I am sure I will receive opposition for the position life has dealt me and the way I view the situation, and it may again effect my future prospects, but I prefer to “direct my anger where it is due” (as the sage EWL has suggested). Sadly I think we all have vastly different views as to that direction, and who is due to receive it.

Good luck to all.

............................................................ ............................................


Amos,

Almost all of it.... Not directly to the fund itself, as I believe it was winding up, but I did assist 2 fellow collegues on a monthly basis for about a year after getting back. They are both now back on their feet I am pleased to report. All recorded in a diary if anyone is concerned. I felt it better that way.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

My questions to Clive:

Did you remain a member of the AFAP during your years in Anscab?

Did you join the APA, and if so why?

If your joined the APA, were you under pressure to do so?

Was the APA a closed shop?

Clive, I am afraid your post won’t wash with me, despite the attempted white wash.

You see Clive, unless you did remain an AFAP member, then you simply blended into Scab City and became one of them. Which tends to make the exercise of remaining unemployed for your 18 months a waste of time.

If you think 18 months was long, spare a thought for the guys who were unemployed for years, and some of whom never regained employment.

The welfare fund was there for your use, and you availed yourself of its benefit. Please don’t insult those of us who contributed to it by suggesting you directly assisted someone else, and preferred to excise your AFAP membership to fraternise with scabs.

For EWL:

Your proposition of guilt on Hawke et al, is misdirected.

As much as you attempt to hold a fence sitting position, nothing can assuage the fact it is the scabs who hold the greater guilt.

Then reason is really quite simple:

1. Had no one pilot scabbed, and the domestic aircraft been crewed by no one other than foreign scabs, the ACTU could not have sustained the onslaught of supporting such an untenable position in Australian industrial relations. There would have been a revolt by an increasing number of nervous members of the ACTU executive, and that was alluded to in Four Corners by none other than George Crawford. Hawke would have had no option but to dump Abeles, and the little Cherub, Kelty, would have had to use the olive branch he dragged out of his A*S* to come back to the AFAP.
2. Second, in that situation, the Australian public would not have stood for such a scenario, and even the controlled media would have had a lot to say about the situation.

Therefore the only guilt lies with each and every scab, those who ply the skies in Australia now with QF, and those who now flood the world market where no scab dared to tread until now.

Even now, those scabs are extremely nervous, despite what they bleat, and they know what they are, and will remain, forever.


Forgive the scabs?

Not a hope in hell!

[leftfrontside]

Well EWL I sure as hell didn't clear $2500 per fornight in '89 AND I was LFS with AN then AND a Training Capt as well. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Clive I don't know who you are BUT YOU ARE NOT A SCAB "IF" you joined or were involved in discussions AFTER about March '90.

Athough we may differ on perspective of events! :suspect:

[Eastwest Loco]

Sub Sonic - be sure of a few pertinent facts.

The ACTU were powerless, and could not do a thing as the weapons they had - Ie. the TWU as their former most valuable tool to get what they wanted was bleeding even harder than the pilots and wanted work, even if on foreign aeroplanes. The FCU (the ground staff union) was and still is incapable of any action of any great consequence as they are simply a revenue raising operation, and believe me, I have seen their disappearing acts before on more than one occasion.

The Australian travelling public was directed by media to see the stikers as the villains, and was in acceptance mode after about 4 weeks. The airlines would have happily populated the front 2 seats of each and every aeroplance with flyins and GA upgrades.

There would never have been a revolt of the common people, despite the vitriol copped by us groundies at the front line. Ask yourself the question, what in hell could they have done???

Admit it Sub Sonic - each and every one of you was on a thrashing to nothing the second you handed in your flight bag.

If none had gone back, the rebuild would have taken longer, but the airlines at that particular point were making less of a loss with static fleets than flying a full schedules.

As for Hawke not being a villian, where on earth were you over that time? East-West had deregulation delayed on them by Hawke to give the fat man time to buy us by stealth - Fat man buys the bodgies drug ridden daughter a Porsche as a present - hello??? Is a pattern developing here?

I suppose you are right though Sub, please never let me cloud blind hate with facts.

Even my local RSL Club allows and welcomes Japanese tourists to come in and have a drink and a chat, and they were certainly the most disonourable enemy in the last century.

It is time to get on with it.

EWL

leftfrontside

I will bet you did not put in a 153 hour fortnight at the same time either.

EWL

[leftfrontside]

Wrong again EWL "IT WAS A MERC for her 21st"

OK EWL but it was in the vicinity of 100hrs+ per fornight AND we were'nt standing around a coffee machine.

Please lets not get into that area as it's irrevelant as each occupation has a different perspective of where it begins and ends.

IN THE "OLD AN" WE ALL PULLED TOGETHER --------------- "EXCEPT THE F......................g SC$%^BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eastwest Loco]

That may have been another left - but a Porsche was handed over in the EW years.

Hell - either way, that sort of dodginess would not be copped today and the Bodgie has more blood on his hands than anyone othere than the Fat Man. God got one - so far.

I also note there was no comment re the 153 hours worked in a fortnight to clear $2500.00.Ever worked a 153 hour fortnight?

EWL

[amos2]

I'm truly sorry to have to say this EWl, because you strike me as a bloke who has seen the error of his ways and wishes to repent, but, you have been a scab supporter ever since 89' and now appear to wish to appease yourself to the other side of the argument!

But, you see, it doesn't work that way!

You either know where you stand or you don't!

You can't front up 14 yrs later and suck up to both sides because you happen to be going through an emotional period in your personal life!

[phnompenhkid]

The PPK hasn:t gone anywhere at all. Just trired of the same old $hit, and I did say this site didnt need me if that continued.

I suppose if Kaptin M was involved in negotiations, or signed and then withdrew/was rejected, then he is still a scab! If the logic applies one way, i.e., Clive was not involved in negotiations, therefore isnt, then the opposite must apply.

Good p@ost gaunty. i HAVE SAID IT MANY TIMES, THE $CABS WERE NOT THE ENMEMY. tHE LIKES OF ABELES AND HAWKE WERE, ALONG WITH THOSE WHO SIGNED, WERE REJECTED AND THEN BECAME PILLARS OF STRENGTH FOR THE CAUSE.

tHIS COMPUTER IS ROOTED THE SHIFT IS LOCKED. BACK LATER.

PHNOM PENH IS STILL A GREAT PLACE TO BE. THE BEER IS STILL SWEET AND THE LADIES STILL PRETTY.

[amos2]

...go away Kid!...you're out of your depth here!

[leftfrontside]

Right on Amos2 he's only a kid in short pants with ink wet on his licence.

PM for you "lfs"

[Eastwest Loco]

Amos. I have been here all the while. I have fought tooth and nail and rebuilt my personal life to a point where I have a reasonable future ahead if all goes well.

I have nothing whatsoever to repent about, and am not in one little way a scab supporter as you call it.

I had and have great mates on both sides of the dispute and treasure them as such, and have never for one second said that one was wrong or right.

There is no wrong or right in this instance, simply differences of opinion with major consequence. Who the hell would I be to judge choices of friends that affected their lives. It was and ever will be my place,or that of any person other than the one directly involved.

As for fronting up 14 years later, I think you will find my involvements stretch a tad further, and my contact with those on both sides has been fairly consistent.

I know exactly where I stand, and my choice is not to take sides. I was privvy to much information that was used against you at the time of the dispute and could not do a damned thing about it.

Please do not patronise me Amos. I will not stand for it.

I opened up and told all that I had a nervous meltdown after the strike, and redundancy and return to traffic duties followed by EW shutdown and a move to AN Adelaide in order to show that not only aircrew bled over this time and events and you throw that back in my face. How bloody dare you.

I will have you know that was in '91, and the use of it was as low an act as i have seen since the strike when EW kept flying ('89ers and non alike) and had wives phoned and threatened when hubbies left for work.

What I stand for Amos, is the aviation industry as a whole. It is where I grew up, it is bigger than all of us, including you believe it or not. We have lost it and need to get it back.

I will NOT cop cheap and ill informed shots.

EWL

[Kaptin M]

Bloody amazing how an "event" that happened 14 years ago still manages top billing and numerous encores, isn't it?!
I guess from that, EWL, you can see how much chance there is of the two sides ever reconciling their differences now. If there had been ANY chance at "building bridges", it was dashed by the Ansett Pilots' Association.
My guess is the "blacklist" that you saw would have been formulated by pilots, rather than management - management don't care WHO is doing the work, as long as it gets done.

PPScab, "..and I did say this site didnt need me if that continued."
What made you think that you were needed.........ANYWHERE?!?!?!!!!!

Edit: EWL you posted while I was typing, and then (I) had to make a quick dash to the monorail to take a mate and his lady on their way to catch a flight to Honolulu...lucky beggars!
Back to your last post, and one of your closing commentsWe have lost it and need to get it back.
It is gone. We can NEVER, EVER get back what we had.
As Father Time decrees, the clock cannot be turned back - not even for one second.
Be glad for the good times you were fortunate enough to have lived through, and the people you met, but forget about ever getting back what you (we) had.

It's gone.

[Eastwest Loco]

Point is well taken Kaptin.

Interesting how they turn on 3rd parties if the hate is strong enough. Sad that, as reasoning human beings such as yourself have found it in themselves to co-exist. Well done mate.

I have had nearly enough of this, and will pull my head in as the radical fringe is not worth the effort. I tried, and have enjoyed informed discussion with yourself and many others.

The attitude of some would make you wonder where one starts the obviously needed revision of the pshyc tests.

Best regards all.

Saving a personal attack, I will shut up over '89 as of now.

EWL

Oh - Kaptin - these docs were definitely from senior AN (and EW) management and not a pilot produced document.

Loco

[Not_Another_Pot]

Christ you lot, grow up!! It was years ago, long dead!

Frankly the "89" thing gives me the shi-ts and its passing on a bad karma to the new pilots.

Just drop it!

To tell the truth, I had a 6 month break from Prune for this reason!

/me waits for flaming!

NAP

[amos2]

Yeah, well, if you want to share hard luck stories with me EWL don't waste your time mate!

The stuff I know would leave you so far behind it wouldn't be funny!!

About time you and your lot got on with life and stopped trying to justify yourselves 14 yrs after the event!

And by the way, I'm not patronising you, I'm telling you the way it is! Get used to it!

I wouldn't waste my time flaming you N-A-P,

You're not worth it! ;)

[Sub-Sonic MB]

EWL

Let me express this in a manner even you can understand.

The progress of the dispute was dependent on one factor, and one factor alone - that no one scabbed.

It was the pilot membership of the AFAP which stated "fix the problem".

The AFAP did what it was charged by the membership to do.

It was known what Hawke would do.

It was known what Abeles would do.

It was known where Kelty lay his head.

It was also known that the ACTU would eventually twist and tell Kelty to tell Hawke to tell Abeles he would have to talk to the AFAP.

But it is as sure as the Pope is a Catholic that was dependent on no one scabbing.

Your imagination has run riot with your scenarios, and selling the Australian public opinion short is not terribly smart, as the ALP is wont to do.

I also suggest, that if you were indeed netting $2,500 in 1989 each fortnight, then you indeed mesmerised someone into thinking you had some value - what I cannot imagine.

[Eastwest Loco]

You are being patronising Amos, and there is one small difference.

I did get on with it - I am over it - It is no hard luck story at all if you knew the figures my Travel Agency is producing and has done through Sep 11 - Gulf War and SARS.

There were dark days indeed, as we all had and I could hate either or both sides of the dispute but do not.

My apologies for not fitting into your black and white plan, but that is something I never have of will do.

I am just fine, thank you for inquiring (backhandedly). I wasn't as many others that you discount in recollections of '89 anywhere near fine for a while. Many did not recover, and scant thought has been paid to the hundreds of family or partnership run hotels and associated tourist businesses that failed because of it.

Not patronising?? Bah!!

EWL

Sub Sonic

My God you are anally retentive. Quite simple - as I mentioned earlier the penalty rates/allowances in Traffic as well as every other section of the industry were excessive - THAT was the point.

As to not being worth the dollars?? Another idiot who has never worked with me. My crews were and always will be the best of the best.

Leave personal insults out of this place.

It is below you.

EWL

[Not_Another_Pot]

As posted by Amos2 I wouldn't waste my time flaming you N-A-P,

You're not worth it!

See, this is what I was on about!!

Grow up! I got over you lot, I bought my own plane! Sorry do you have one?

This is why I left Prune once and I may do it again!

But then, unlike the "89"ers, I have a good sense of humour!

NAP, who is happy!

[leftfrontside]

Hey EWL, always wondered where I was on those so called docs?

THOSE F.................g SCUM BAGS RANG AND BEGGED ME AT LEAST 3 TIMES TO COME BACK because I HAD SOMETHING THEY WANTED!

TCAPT A320 and they were desparate to get it in the air.

THAT'S WHY THERE WILL NEVER BE ANY RECONCILLIATION WITH SCABS.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:



forgot to add that when the AFAP said apply for your job back, March '90

"I got a letter telling me no positions avail watch the National Papers for any future positions"

Wish I still had it to post here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Bodgie, Scabs and Union A........H........s can all burn in hell after miserable deaths as far as I'm concerned!!!!!!!!!!

[Eastwest Loco]

Those docs passed through my hands, and should not have as I was technically well below the "need to know" category, but EW was very open management.

I see your point, and resorted to defending myself against personal attacks that are ill informed and uncalled for.

My part in attempting to pour oil on the water appears to have been akin to the Exxon Valdez, so I will give it away.

Best regards

EWL

[Sid Departure]

NAP, if you find this topic so distasteful, WHY do you keep reading it!

[amos2]

From NAP...I bought my own airplane, sorry do you have one?

Never ask a question, mate, unless you know the answer...you might end up with egg on your face...as you just have!!!

By the way NAP...professional pilots call aeroplanes aeroplanes, not planes...got that?...Good!

Back to the aero club for you perhaps? ;)

[Sub-Sonic MB]

"Sub Sonic

My God you are anally retentive. Quite simple - as I mentioned earlier the penalty rates/allowances in Traffic as well as every other section of the industry were excessive - THAT was the point.

As to not being worth the dollars?? Another idiot who has never worked with me. My crews were and always will be the best of the best.

Leave personal insults out of this place.

It is below you.

EWL"

I note the ego (of EWL) is higher than the Empire State.

Notwithstanding, I will lay London to a brick that your information is not as accurate as you wish to portray.

Also having been hit for six, you wish take the bat and go home.

I hope not EWL, as shooting down your ego is quite fun.

Further, there is noting in your posts which suggests anyting other than a gratitude to scabs for saving your job. A syndrome encouraged by the Fat Man, and set in stone by his minions.

[halfrhovsquared]

WOOMERA,

A while back you posted an effective ultamatim reference the 89 dispute.

Please close this one down.

For example that last post by AMOS2 is childish, and he/she is not the only one.

If the kiddies cannot be civil, take away the source of their angst.

They are wasting valuable server space.:mad:

[amos2]

For somebody who knows what the co-efficient of lift is, I would expect better than that! ;)

[Eastwest Loco]

Sub Sonic

I will NEVER take my bat and ball and go home. And as to ego, I have no problem there. I suggest you speak to any pilot on either side of the arguement who operated an F27, F28 or 146 through either Wynyard or Devonport when they were in my control and ask as to the efficiencey and professionalitiy of the turnaround.

Do not criticise what you have no knowledge of.

I am not and never have been an egotistical person. I treasure my mates Amos, and those mates have widely varied views. I have tried my best to bring them back together, and if one or two make contact again then I will be well pleased.

You have been a serial stirrer in here for a good while Amos.

I am proud of what I did in commercial aviation before retreating to Agency and still miss the razors edge of a small airline very much.

The Airline is more important than the individual in the best of all worlds.

I will not be maligned by idiots Amos.

You qualify.

I apologise to all other PPRuNers for the above outburst, but do not back down from it.

Amos shooting down my ego? Good luck finding a target mate, and try not to suffer injury from friendly fire.

Why is it one cannot even have a reasoned discussion with you?

Goodnight from an obviously genetically aberated, egotistical and manic depressive Loco.

EWL

Must be time for my medication


NURSE?????????????

[amos2]

Hmmm!...I get this strong feeling that I am being mis-maligned here!! ;)

[greybeard]

Clive,

I may have maligned you unintentionally, the so called 12/13 were actually what it was all about, GETTING OUR JOBS BACK.
You are not to whom I referred in my post, sorry!

You were a taker of a brave move considering the climate of the time, 4 were from Perth , one other turned it down, now in a better position with Dragon I think.

EWL, we made decisions, we cannot rewrite history, just try to stop the ******s of the past stuffing up the future.

[Woomera]

You guys are just going to have to try harder.

It would be very easy for me to lock this thread and go to zero tolerance on '89, but I don't believe that would solve any problems for either side and there is still some way yet to go.

Dammit - there seems to be a softening of the anger on both sides

I am ashamed at your treatment of YOUR friend EWL.

He has been a moderate and considerate poster was not a pilot therefore cant be vilified by either side, he was negatively affected in the same way us the rest of us by Abeles and Hawke, has been holding out his heart and a hand in the hope of some reconciliation and he cops a bucket.

amos2, pull your head in. You are entitled to feel any way you wish, just be careful at whom and how you aim.

As EWL says just keep talking it out and it will keep coming out.

I have seen some new stuff here that continues to reveal new issues or events from both sides.

Both sides have had to, or continue to bear their crosses.

Perhaps, just maybe, both sides will eventually get to understand where the other side is coming from.

That doesn't mean you have to rush into each others arms.:ugh:

Just talk about it with at least a soupcon of civility, you might just learn something about yourselves and each other and get to team up against the REAL enemy, who have wrecked both lots of lives by their criminal actions.

I am not an '89er or "hero" and have not flown for either, but I will say it again.

As an Australian citizen I have never been so sickened and ashamed of the abuse of the separation of powers, the suborning of the Constitution and the laws of the land, the placing of Australian passengers at such huge risk and the use of the military against our own citizens, regardless of the "rightness" or not of their cause.

This was Australia, which was supposed to be the land of the "fair go" and "looking after your mates", the land with which he was supposed to be having a love affair. :{:yuk:

His bawling performance whilst he announced the Tien an Men student amnesty wasn't for them, as most people thought, it was because he was just so totally overwhelmed by the weight of his own wonderfulness.:rolleyes:

We were all his and the fat mans victims one way or the other.

The '89ers have a right to be aggrieved, the others, like the '89ers have to live with their decision and the recent AN collapse.

You each chose your position at the time, calling each other names just doesn't achieve anything, vigorous discussion does.

We must make sure it never ever happens again.

It's up to you whether this thread gets locked and I go to zero tolerance.

I'll say it again, keep talking, but stop calling each other names and lay off the personal abuse. Period

[bonvol]

EWL, you are with a pretty tough crowd here. The way we saw the dispute is a bit like Dubya...you were either with us or you were agin us.

You had mates on both sides and still do by the sounds. I can understand your intentions to try and get some sort of remarriage happening for the good of mankind but it just can't happen. The Israelis will be building theme parks for the Palestinians before that happens.

Also, some of the blokes on the "other" side who are your mates were completely different animals in an aircraft. It even amazed me as to the Jekyll and Hyde nature some of them possessed. Ask around about the feathered variety and you will find some amazing (true)stories. Also, when you say how much it moved you when you marshalled in the first F28 post dispute that is like waving a very large red flag to a very large number of bulls.

And for the 89'ers who weren't in EWA let me say that EWL was one of those ground staff who always had boyish enthusiasm for the job and tirelessly did his best. He's understandably on the fence on this one but should probably just leave the field of combat to the main protagonists. It's easier on the blood pressure :D

[Kaptin M]

Win one......lose one.
14 years after, YOUR viewpoint is still obviously worth a lot, EWL.
In the interests of all concerned - not the least YOURSELF - your real (true) viewpoint has been challenged.

Perhaps more than a little unfair on a public forum, however you have decided to become an active participant, and thus come squarely and fairly (or vv ) into the limelight.

Do you sail with the wind whenever possible, or do you sometimes tack?
IMHO, I believe the second is a fair assessment of you, EWL.

EastWest Loco has consistently spoken his mind on the events of 1989 - not as a pilot, but as one who was DIRECTLY affected by our actions, and the actions forced upon us, the pilots.
That the "non-pilot" COULD have stood up at the time and said, "STOP, this just isn't right - this is NOT what being an Australian is all about" was apparently beyond the scope of most.
Those who did take that stand were likely to (also) lose their secure airline position(s), leaving them (and THEIR families) "on the streets".

And so let's not zero in on one individual, but rather look at how we/they "appear" as a group.
In my opinion (of course), nothing has really changed a great deal over the past 14 years - the scabs decided to be exactly that, and stuck to that "tag" to spite themselves, by not allowing the re-employment of pilots who can only be described as innocents - with the exception of The Dirty Dozen aka The 12 Disciples, of whom Clive was one. (and PPscab was NOT!!)

As bonvol says, EWL you are with a pretty tough crowd here.
...but we're an HONEST lot.
And I reckon YOU fit in pretty well!! :ok:

[Clive]

OH DEAR !!!

In the 4 years that I have been a user of PPRUNE (3 of those as a registered user) I have made only 27 posts (this the 28th). I normally reserve my diatribe for times when I think I might have comments of some use/interest.

Clearly I have failed as the 3 pages of posts since my comments were posted, just this morning, have predominately comprised of a litany of abuse and hatred directed at some undeserving souls. I will retire again to a position of interested observer and apologize to those that I have caused grief through my views and opinions.

[Kaptin M]

Don't take a back seat, Clive.
Be a man - and attempt to CLARIFY that which you feel needs clarification, in general terms.

Your opening/closing post was, in my opinion, one of the most insightful that has appeared on this topic.

Rather than desisting, back up your previous posts with further first-hand experiences.
Each of us has his own experience to recount - none of which is wrong, no matter how strong the opposing viewpoints!!

[Clive]

Yeah.... I know your right Kaptin.

I guess what I mean is that I certainly won't be drawn into the "name calling" and the "hurling of abuse", particularly at individuals.... deserving or not.

One thing my tertiary studies have given me is some pretty strong views on the love/hate relationship our industry has formed with most of us. Like marriage (on occasions), I would have to give serious consideration as to recommending this crazy lifestyle to by little boy, or not so little girl. Mind you, the subsonic's and lefthandside's of this world would not accept them in any event.

Cheers.

:D

[greybeard]

Woomera et all,

Thanks for your patience and continued support of a forum which is at best controversial and at its worse pure vitriol.

EWL has sent it along a slightly different track, Clive has dropped a different slant on the "13" which had slipped under my guard and I have PMed him on such.

We have probably spent a lot of our anger and vitriol in slightly the wrong direction according to many who were on the fringes, or late commers to the fray, however certain individuals who caused me and my family the angst reported many moons ago on this site are hard to forgert and impossible to forgive.

Their actions in their eagerness to be forgiven and be accepted into the International scene makes us wonder to their sincerity considering their well documented actions to exclude us in previous times.

So where are their true faces we ask?

Once severly bitten by our so called mates we are a wary lot and probably personally quite vindictive being only human after all.

Again, thankyou, keep us on track if you can, bin us if we step too far thats all we can ask and expect.

C YA

[Clive]

Thanks for the PM Greybeard, hope you got my reply.

Nobody can, or should try to, deny you your emotions (I hope I was not guilty of that). You are not alone in your occasional venting of them. I stand accused of the same from time to time(not on the Flight Deck thank heavens). I believe it is healthy (so we are told).

As I said in my PM.... I hope your slightly early retirement brings you happy days and at least some fond memories.

Enjoy.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Clive

It never ceases to amuse me that the only people in these fora who complain about name calling are those who happen to be scabs, or in your case, (bear in mind I have NOT accused you of being one), someone who flew with them.

I posed questions to you, and instead of responding, you accuse me of name calling, or hurling abuse.

There is a difference in stating facts about one's behaviour, such as scabbing, and the character deficiency associated with the condition, and name calling or hurling abuse.

I, in my few posts, state facts about character, and in the case of scabs, it is self evident except to those who hold that qualification.

In your case, I asked you a fairly simple question, did you remain a member of the AFAP, and you did not answer it, which leads me to the conclusion you cannot respond in the positive.

In which case, I suggest you not only let your fellow 89er's down, but embraced the morally bankrupt characters with whom you then flew.

Had you remained a member of the AFAP, even a closet one, I would have hailed you as a man of character.

It is of little value to you to simply sign off because you don't like any repsonse.

Be a man - don't run away because you didn't get responses which you thought would make everyone like you for the circumstance which surrounded you.

Let's face it, you might have 18 months of extreme difficulty, but enjoyed ten years of extreme wealth in terms of income, while many of your fellow 89er's had none.

[leftfrontside]

Clive.

Now I feel maligned:
If you go back and read one of my posts (I think in the prevoius 100+ thread) I referred to you and said "AS FAR AS I WAS CONCERNED ANYBODY WHO JOINED AFTER MARCH 90 (or what ever the date was around then) WAS OK BY ME except that if they had started negotiations prior to said date.

So pray tell how does that put me in with the hard liners? :confused:

[Z Force]

Sub-Sonic MB, were the AFAP party to the pilots contract after the dispute?

[leftfrontside]

May I suggest we suspend this thread tomorrow the 23rd AEST as a mark of respect for a departing Aviator who was involved. :ok:

[Woomera]

Done as of now and will be stickied to keep it up there for the same reason.

[Capt_Zoolander]

I don't bother looking in on this crap, much nowadays, but every now and then I do, and it really annoys me.

Firstly, I am one of the so called "dirty dozen", and I am proud to be one of them!

As a senior F/O, I had plenty of chances to "do the wrong thing". I chose to hang in "there", even in late December 1989, when I realised that some of our leaders had changed sides , I still stuck by my "guns". I knew we had lost but there was no way I would change sides. I was the guy that gave the "Fat Man" his knickname back in 1985. (just ask Jim)

During the "dispute" we were supposedly fighting for our jobs back. The AFAP asked me to resign, I "Resigned", they asked me, not to "scab", I did not SCAB. During the dispute when some of the senior AFAP figures tossed in the towel, we were told that "it was OK as they were working from the inside to fix the problem"

When the AFAP told us it was "OK" now to apply, I received the same response as everyone else, basically, "get stuffed!"

About a year later (after going through the same recruitment "B###Sh##" as an intake F/O), I was offered a postion in Melbourne
as an "intake F/O". I was stripped of any recognition of previous service.

I think you can, "get the idea".

I can't remember the exact date, but I think it was about six months or so are being "re-employed", that I decided to resign from the AFAP

This was a decision that I made myself with no pressure from anyone else.

I don't give a Sh**t, if some people here don't like it . I have a clear conscience do they? (you would be surprised at some of the stories I heard from the "Scabs" about who applied and when!)



:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Clive]

I know how you feel Zoolander.

Much to my better judgement I penned a reply to some who would consider me not a man. I intend to respect the sad day tomorrow but leave on a 4 day trip in the early AM so thought it best to beat curfew save being referred to as a lesser man again.... not that I'm overly concerned however.

Subsonic,

My apologies if you feel that I was referring to you when I talk of “name-calling” and “abuse”. This was a general reference to the 4 years of vitriol that I have witnessed here from time to time. Not necessarily from yourself, although I do sense anger that could lead you down that track… anger that I have previously indicated I fully understand. The use of your pseudonym was simply to suggest that you would be unaccepting of my children should they ignore my advice and enter the aviation industry. I feel justified in this suggestion because one of your previous posts indicated that my position “won’t wash with (you), despite the attempted white wash” and thus I assumed that in your eyes I am a scab and my family would be treated as such. I see in your later post that you clarify your stance and in fact do not accuse me of being a scab. Therefore I again apologize. Although I remain a little unsure of you intentions.

Leftfrontside,

As above - the reference to “name-calling” and “abuse hurling” was not aimed at you guys specifically, although I do feel that if you do not wish to be considered as a “hardliner” then your post on the second page of this thread could do with a little tweak. The reference related purely to chances my offspring may have in the future. Here I was probably out of line as I have gone back to the old thread and noted your temperance in relation to my position (not that this is what I was seeking from anyone as I shared my thoughts in public). Not easy to get things right when the thread is split in two. My apologies.

Subsonic (again),

The reason I did not answer your union related question was because I could see no relevance to my post (a fact that Zoolander would seem to agree), a post that called for considered reasoning from both camps. I accept you obviously see relevance so I will answer you.

Firstly I believe that freedom of association in Australia is protected in law. This is (partly at least) so that those of us unskilled in industrial relations can pay those who are to assist in these matters. This was why I joined the AFAP when I began an aviation career. The AFAP were a party to the pilot’s award until the disturbing events of 1989/90. Like most, I understand, I was not asked to resign membership from the organization following these events and I did not tender one. Therefore to this day I don’t really know what my membership status is. I assume that given no membership dues were requested, or paid, then one’s membership would be null and void. Upon re-employment in the industry I sought industrial representation via the party to the new award/contract, this being the APA. I cannot concur with your view that if I remained a financial member of the AFAP (given that they were not a party to the award/contract) this would have somehow kept me shielded from “scab city” as you call it. A subjective view, so I am willing to be corrected.

Finally, in relation to your request that I “be a man” and stay in this particular boxing ring, I say that if I were inclined to simply “sign off because I didn’t like any response” then I would have given up my 4 years of input (albeit meager in nature) long ago, as many others have over the years I might add. My reasoning behind signing off from this thread was because my belief that a voice of reason could contribute constructively by inciting a non-bellicose debate was dashed when indeed the opposite began to occur. Additionally, my intention was not to try and make “everyone like (me) for the circumstance (that) surrounded (me)”. I thought it best to declare my position prior to pontificating on matters pertinent to the time. In fact I was pretty sure my declaration would result in more angst than anything else, reasonably accurate in your case I guess.

I’m not running and hiding and I always intend to be here – often passive and when I feel the time is right – proactive, the way most use this forum I would have thought. But when I find myself yet again and the end of that “dead end street” I spoke of, I feel my time is better spent not feeding negativity but furthering my studies, keeping in touch with home, and… oh yeah…. working in this often rewarding, but more often frustrating, industry.


:confused:

[Kaptin M]

Zoolander, I am one of those who was accused of having applied and being rejected. Yes I did apply, however the application was in for less than 3 days before I withdrew it, in the company of the then Brisbane Branch chairman. The reply from the BNE RFM was, " We haven't received your application." Possibly because it was delivered to the Valley office, and not the airport.
A friend at the time, who was also on the BNE branch subsequently scabbed and later became a checkie on the A320, I understand, commented later, "If I'd known, I would have told you not to withdraw your application."
Yet the truth has been distorted to perhaps act as a salve for some of the scabs....."Whatisname and whoisface applied, but they rejected them."

As a collective group, the NON-credibility of the scabs' word is one that has been proven beyond doubt - phnompenhkid has refreshed the reputation with several of his posts on the D & G forum of late.

When you consider some of the types the companies were FORCED into accepting - Storm Boy, Captain Lightfingers, The Blind Man to name a few AN people - because of the dire shortage of applicants, and then accept that others of FAR better quality had applied but were rejected, goes against rational thinking - but makes a good story, and makes the scabs "feel better".
Think about it, and ask yourself how credible the tales are.

Anyway we look forward to hearing more about life as it was "on the inside" from you guys - The Dirty Dozen, or The 12 Disciples, as you became known.

[blat]

re: the above -

Sounds like someone's had 14 years to perfect his story.

Sounds a lot like someone's really full of ****e.

Sounds like someone's living in a dream world. You know, when an accomplished liar (read B.S. artist) starts to believe his own bullsh!t? It's a sad day...
...of FAR better quality...
Reminds me of that scene in "top Gun" when Ice chomps his teeth at Mav after that line about "who's the best pilot".

[Kaptin M]

Back to the top again.
Woomera is it possuible to incorporate Capt_Zoolander's thread with this one, please?

[phnompenhkid]

Good to see I rate a mention again KM. You`re so kind keeping my name up there in lights and it is appreciated.

Credibility? Non-credibility? Who cares.

My conscience is clear just as you say yours is, in spite of signing before the AFAP said it was OK to do so, and you fit the same mould where you have put me, and that is a scab. It doesn`t hurt me, not will it - ever, but it seems that you have difficulty accepting the tag.

Keep at it - I love the attention, and am flattered that you give me so much of it.

[leftfrontside]

SCAB maynot worry you PPK but then that is typical of all you lot couldn't give a "rats a...." about anyone but yourselves.

Whatever you say remember YOUR family will have to endure for generations that YOU WERE A SCAB just like the descendents of the Scab Miners in Australia from the '30's coal strike families have had to.

Can you live with that? :hmm:

[Aussierotor]

I think a lot of people live in the past world.
About the only union that you would be scabbed for life these days is the building industry.
Times have changed ,unions are on the way out,and in most companies you can still be a member of a union but it has no pulling power.
Ive been in mining for years when the union ruled the way,but now most mining companies are on workplace agreement------why--because they offered more money,a yearly salary etc.Sure they can be pricks but the ones that stayed in the union got no pay rises for years as they were on an old award.
All new starters must sign the workplace agreement and stay on it for 3 years---then they can join a union ,but the company will meet or better any wages they may get.Industrial action is a waste of time as their numbers wouldnt affect the operations.
And even a lot of the good old coal mines are going that way.
Was an easy decision for me as now i get paid for a years work and dont have to worry about a month or more without getting payed.

Im surprised the Ansett thing has lasted so long-------as for future sons being included in the scab name------get a life.
Theres a small minority that carry a grudge,die hard union men and i bet have a loverly english accent

[leftfrontside]

Aussierotor, with respect it's quite obvious that you have know understanding of the Aviation fraternity.

I suggest instead of posting you continue to read and learn, by the way I detested the Union (AFAP) objected to the exhorbitant fee rip off annually AND was vocal in my objection to events of '89.

The bottom line IT WAS A MATTER OF PRINCIPAL and an Aussie fair go, something that doyen of Labour and Unions that f@#$%K**g S$%#m A.......h.......e the Silver Bodgie and the Fat Man forgot.

:mad:

[Eastwest Loco]

bonvol and Kaptin M

I am well aware that I am with a tough and sometimes vitriolic crowd here, and you guys could not be where you are if you were any other way. In a perverse way, I enjoy it as it is a close as I can get to being back in a testosterone charged airport environment for now.

It is a hard fight to get where you are or were, and I would not wish to change one little thing about personalities, as if I could or would want to.

bonvol - I have broad shoulders as you will no doubt remember, and if I am not capable of copping it, I indeed should not be here.

As for the feathers flying mate, I am well aware of what you mean and have heard the tales. I speak as I find, but was disappointed to hear many years ago that the dark side of the force existed. Damned shame.

Kap - thank you for an endorsement I am not sure I have earned, but very much appreciate. That really caught me on the back foot, but in a very pleasant way. I do really care about this industry and as you would have gathered feel it is greater than the sum of all of us, as we are carrying the burden of those great people from the day of its inception until now.

The only other thing that I can add now is that a force divided is a force defeated.

I have learned many more details about a dark time in all of our histories through this forum, and am grateful for the knowledge as it makes any opinion I may form more valid through it's absorbtion. This combined from what I know makes the conspiracy againsts all of US even more evil.

Clive

What an intelligent and insightful gentleman.It was almost like having my uncle, the late Boomer Collins (Ex RAAF then TN) in the room again. Thank you for excellent input.

Lastly - Woomera

How bleeding tolerant are you, singularly or collectively. There has been a little bloodletting in this topic but you have allowed it to flow within reason and I am sure we all appreciate that and it is amazing how the good people in the forum have moderated. An interesting series of angst graphs could be produced.

Also, thank you for pausing proceedings for Billy Hobday's departure. That, and the fact it was requested by a member in the room speaks volumes for the participating parties and their real feelings for each other reaching beyond the hurt that was '89. Godspeed Bill.

There is hope for this industry while we all hold the dream.

I have never lost it, despite being redundant 3 times in the industry. If you are not with the one you love, love the one you're with good people.

Fly safely and to the absolute limit of your ability (God I wish I could) and enjoy every second.

Thank you all for endorsing a ground hog,and allowing me to participate.

Best regards all

EWL

Ron Knight

[bonvol]

EWL. Well said.

I'd give my left one (figuratively speaking) to be back flying EWD into Devonport for the quick turn around and into HBA. Then it would be into the Sheraton or the Casino, chase a few women, maybe even catch one and do it all again in a cupla days.

They were the days! . Old EWA was the best outfit you could have ever worked for. Ah.. nostalgia.

[Eastwest Loco]

Yes bonvol

Watching EWD or any of the girls approaching from the East North East with a setting sun ahead of her on a Summer's eve with 72 happy punters down back of EW75, and then watching the girl turning onto base and then final over town into the Easterly breeze was just the finest thing one could see from a baggage trolley with a cup of coffee in ones paw.

Those that have not frequented DPO would not understand, but trust us, DPO was one of the last bastions of the true industry that despached and flew DC3's and 4's. and Viscounts.

Mind you, Riggy pulling 300 knots on downwind in EWG was amazing, if a little disconcerting, but them was the days and that was Riggy.

I would indeed give my right one to be there to marshall you in and put the nosewheel right in the middle of the circle bonvol.

As long as we carry the culture of operations lost, such as East West, Ansett and indeed TAA/Australian with us in work ethic, the industry still has a chance and the young ones coming up behind us will have a culture to absorb and will be in awe of it.

The best of the best will try to emulate that, and there may be a tiny hope for this industry of ours into the future.

Best

EWL

[phnompenhkid]

leftfrontside,

no difficulty at all dude, or is that dud??

the only people who remember this ridiculous event are those who f#$%&d up their decision and now hate themselves for it. Can you live with that? Obviously not.

[Aussierotor]

Leftfrontside.
Your right ,if it was more than a week ago i definately would have forgotten the events at the time.
I will stick to group concerns but in the end im going to look after No1----me.
As for ruining relationships with friends i find that hard to understand.Yes you work as i do with many people,that you drink with ,go golfing etc ,but how many are true friends that you would associate with if you left your job.Maybe out of a 100 you would have 5 top mates.
Im a sheep ,been their and done that ,put my hand up for a strike not wanting one,wondering what so called mates(associates) would think.I was lucky never to get in a situation where it was go to work or not have a job..
Maybe im still off the beaten track,but a final decision is mine,its my life ,its my income.And as someone above mentioned there are a lot who wished they had gone the other way,and yes their are the die-hards i mentioned before who are union crazy.
Find me a place that excepts "principles" instead of cash and you have won me over

[amos2]

Yeah, well,interesting post, Ausierotor, or what ever...

Perhaps scumbag might be a more appropriate handle!!

...besides, with your rather limited qualifications, perhaps the Wannabees forum is more suitable for you!!

Get lost! ;)

[Sub-Sonic MB]

Clive

For you and Zoo, I make the point that neither you and he, nor the others who were re-employed after the cut-off date are scabs; provided you had not applied prior to that date.

What you then might have considered is the fact that you left behind colleagues who were not so fortunate, whether it be in regaining their rightful employment, or their inability to obtain work anywhere else through, dare I say, no fault of theirs.

The golden scabs, AGGIE, MADDOGGIE, et al, were of course going to treat you as new, and I don’t doubt you wished to keep your noses clean, just in case.

But really, it won’t wash that there was any reason to join the APA. You had a personal contract. And you will be hard pressed to convince anyone they would down tools to protect you if you ran foul of AGGIE or DORKERS. Or even that fool MADDOGGIE.

I think most of your AFAP colleagues would be very pleased for your return, for in your case, that is what it was. Not in the case of scabs. You were the only ones who actually got your jobs back, unlike the scabs, who bleat incessantly that “(Sob Sob – I was only taking my job back – Sob Sob!” They took yours and everyone else’s, and that is why when you regained yours, it was an altered state.

It would have placed you high in my eyes, and those of your AFAP colleagues, had you remained a member of the AFAP. Forget the award – totally meaningless in the context post ’89 – and you would have been more appropriately repaying the fund which supported you by assisting those members who had gained such benefits as you enjoyed on the day you originally joined.

That is what is meant by “being a man”.

In the context of your new salary benefit, it would have been money better spent. It seems the subs to the APA were a means for a junket for the MARMITES of the world.

[amos2]

yes...I think Sub Sonic has a point here!

Clives' "bona fides" are a little suspect!

Especially as he, on his own admittance, did not pay back the moneys he took from AFAP members prior to regaining his job!...many of whom were then out of work for extended periods of time!

Might I also say, from a position of authority, that he was not alone in this!

Poor show eh!?

[leftfrontside]

I'm not going to get in a slanging match with you PPK as you are quite obviously of an extremely low IQ base. I'll let you in into a confidence, The Fat Man only beat me by a year or so leaving anyway as I had had a enough of the outfit anyway, he only hastened the move AND I haven't looked back AND never for an instant in the last 13+ yrs have I regreted my decision.

I CAN LIVE WITH THAT.

A guy in another thread summed you up perfectly - gutter feeder.

There endeth the lessen no more banter will be entered into: :hmm:

[Spad]

I’m sorry, ‘Sub Sonic’, but I have to buy into this. Anyone who’s willing to take the time to troll through my posts in regard to 1989 will very quickly see that I’m no ‘hero’ worshipper. But to say that a pilot who had re-joined AN, whatever his circumstances, should have voluntarily forked out 1.5% of his salary - (or was it 1%? - I don’t remember) - to a union that couldn’t represent him is patently and utterly ridiculous.

‘Capt Zoolander’ and ‘Clive’, there will always be the few – the very few – who will hold extreme views on anyone who ‘slept with the dogs’ despite any evidence presented to them. The rest of us – the vast majority – are willing to abide by the March cut off date in categorizing what camp an individual stands in, even though most of us know of some who have ‘ducked beneath the wire’ by judicious memory lapses in just when they actually started or first applied.

The important thing is they know what they really did when the blowtorch was applied to our collective belly, and despite the loud protestations of some to the contrary, (like the ‘proudly’ heroic gentleman from Phonm Penh), it gnaws at them and I suspect it will continue to do so to the day they die.

[FarQ2]

Enjoy this thread from the sidelines. It's interesting how "The Dirty Dozen" or so there called and all the other lot who joined AN after March 1990 try to justify there positions.
Someone earlier here said that "quote" IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS YOU GET FLEAS- TRUE, but it is a condition.

It's called "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME"

Said my bit. :ok:

[mainwheel]

A few bitter gentlemen may remember me from Kuching one night in 1990. I said to you then that i had over a period of years resigned from both domestic airlines airlines in downunder and that once you write that letter, your ties are severed.
Isn't that what happened in 89??

[phnompenhkid]

mainwheel,

You can`t make it any simplet than that! Some just don`t hear it though.

Spad,

There are those, of Kaptin M`s ilk (to use his term) who do conveniently forget that they signed before the AFAP`s capitulation date.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

farQ2 the dirty dozen were sacrificial lambs. they were ONLY employed by the company to demonstrate no discrimination existed in the recruiting policies of both airlines after the WAR. TAA had employed five.

[Clive]

FARQ2,

I've re-read mine and Zoolander's posts and can't really see how we were trying to "justify" our position. I reckon Zoolander was doing the opposite... ie: "FarQ and I don't care what you think" (to paraphrase). And in my case I thought it best to declare my interest before waxing lyrical on such a hot topic, and trying to get both sides to see things from each others perspective.

Anyhow, you're entitled to your opinion. I hope we're entitled to ours.

[Capt_Zoolander]

FarQ2

I have only one word to say to you, and that is "FarQ!"

For the more intelligent PPruner's

FarQ2,

Had this to say,


"Enjoy this thread from the sidelines. It's interesting how "The Dirty Dozen" or so there called and all the other lot who joined AN after March 1990 try to justify there positions.
Someone earlier here said that "quote" IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS YOU GET FLEAS- TRUE, but it is a condition.

It's called "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME"

Said my bit."


FarQ2,

I would agree that you are entitled to your opinion, just as anyone else here is entitled to theirs.

I thought I made my position clear on my last post on this thread, but just for you, here it is again,


> When the AFAP told us it was "OK" now to
> apply, I received the same response as
> everyone else, basically, "get stuffed!"

> About a year later (after going through the
> same recruitment "B###Sh##" as an intake > F/O), I was offered a postion in Melbourne
> as an "intake F/O". I was stripped of any
> recognition of previous service.

> I think you can, "get the idea".

> I can't remember the exact date, but I think it > was about six months or so are being
> "re-employed", that I decided to resign from > the AFAP

> This was a decision that I made myself with > no pressure from anyone else.

> I don't give a Sh**t, if some people here
> don't like it . I have a clear conscience do
> they? (you would be surprised at some of
> the stories I heard from the "Scabs" about
> who applied and when!)

FarQ2 thinks, "It's called "STOCKHOLM SYNDROME"

I know it's called an "AB INITIO PILOT BOND"

As far as I know, no "Scabs" were required to sign this.

Now remember, I had worked for Ansett for over 10 Years, and had a flawless record. I also had a First Class ATPL, which I obtained during my retirement, by updating my old Senior Commercial licence. (which I obtained at the the age of 21, before joining Ansett)

I was re-employed as an F/O and after the collapse I was still an F/O. I watched many of the junior "Scabs" get their commands, and will never forget listening to one of them telling me that he got his command because he "scabbed early"



Here is a copy of the "Bond",


By this Bond I, Capt Zoolander (hereinafter referred to as "the Pilot") an employee of ANSETT AIRLINES OF AUSTRALIA of 501 Swanston Street Melbourne, in the State of Victoria (hereinafter referred to as "the Company") bind myself to the Company for the payment to it of the sum of $25,000 (twenty-five thousand dollars) payable by way of liquidated damages and not by way of penalty.

Sealed with my seal this ** day of ***** 1991

WHEREAS it has been agreed between the company and the Pilot that the Company shall at its own expense provide for the Pilot and the Pilot shall undertake tuition and schooling to enable the Pilot to qualify for and obtain a First Class/Second Class Airline Transport Pilot Licence subject to the following conditions:-

1. That during the period five years computed from date hereof -

(a) the Pilot will not leave or resign from the employment of the Company to engage in employment as a pilot with another employer.

(b) the Pilot will faithfully serve the Company

2. That the Pilot shall execute the above-writen obligation conditioned as is hereinafter expressed.

NOW THE ABOVE-WRITTEN OBLIGATION is conditioned to be void in case the Pilot shall faithfully observe and perform the condition number (1) hereinbefore recited. The Pilot hereby irrevocably authorises the Company in the event of this Bond becoming enforceable to apply any monies to which the Pilot may be entitled to be paid by the Company in or towards satisfaction of the said sum. This sum shall relate to the unexpired period of this bond.

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[FarQ2]

Well Capt Zoolander you have no one but yourself to blame it's in your post.
I would sooner dug a ditch than sign a piece of sh..t like that, I didn't and stayed in the industry without crossing the line.

[Clive]

Without "crossing the line". That's a concept you should explain sir.

You see if you are referring to the picket "line" then that particular line was removed by our union some 10 - 12 months prior to our group obtaining employment. It was officially removed when the union announced that all were free to re-apply for our jobs should we wish. History shows that about 300 applications went in, 100 or so were interviewd and 13 or so were offered positions. If it is some mythical "moralistic" line then we are getting into some very subjective territory there. Guess you were in a slightly stronger position at the time.

"I would sooner dug (sic) a ditch than sign a piece of sh..t like that". Another interesting concept! I'd bet London to a brick that that you were senior enough, with the experience required, to obtain a position within the industry. If you had spent some quality time to read our posts you would have noted that the Zoo boy and I were junior lads, unwanted by the industry and virtually unemployable some 18 months after the action, which we supported so valiantly, began. Our options were just that.... leave the industry and go digging ditches or swallow a bitter pill to remain in a career we had worked towards all our lives.

Sorry if we don't fit your mould of "good boys".

[FarQ2]

What a bunch of "prima donnas" to proud to dig a ditch, you lot obviously go round saying "I can only fly planes"

And I bet you drive to work with your cap on display on the back shelf of the car. :{ :{

[Capt_Zoolander]

To Quote FarQ2,


"Well Capt Zoolander you have no one but yourself to blame it's in your post. I would sooner dug a ditch than sign a piece of sh..t like that, I didn't and stayed in the industry without crossing the line."

and

"What a bunch of "prima Donnas" to proud to dig a ditch, you lot obviously go round saying "I can only fly planes"

And I bet you drive to work with your cap on display on the back shelf of the car"


Yawn....


Are you the silver Bodgie, FarQ2?

Wasn't "Prima Donna" one of the terms "Bootlicker Bob" used during the dispute?

:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

i'll wage that farQ2 was one of the applicants that never got a berth with one of the majors after the march capitulation. it's a shame the membership didn't realise the game was over in october '89 when Brian Mac tried to get the union members back to work.

companies reply ; too little too late. too bad that!

[Spad]

Here’s a story – some might say a parable – that some will (and some will not) think has any bearing at all to this thread…

A long time ago, two young Iraqis who were the best of friends left school together and went out to start their working lives. They were both very idealistic, but equally ambitious. Like men the world over, they aspired to a better life and to be able to provide a good home and education for the children they hoped one day to have. But neither came from wealthy families, so going into a private business that had any real chance of prospering wasn’t really an option, so they both opted for Government service and were accepted into the police force.

They shared many experiences as junior and, as their careers advanced, middle level officers. But then a new government came into power, and it didn’t take them long to see that the men running this new government were a very different breed to those they had forcefully replaced. So subtly at first that they hardly noticed it, they found themselves enforcing a new and very disturbing system of policing. No one could have objected to the first widespread arrests they were ordered to make – the men were malcontents and subversives who were clearly a threat to society. However, soon a net they were ordered to cast included many ordinary citizens whose only crime appeared to be that they came from the wrong tribal group or had been reported by neighbours for making the most innocuous criticisms of the government. Then they were told they must inform on any colleague or acquaintance who expressed any dissent or suffer punishment themselves.

The two men had remained close – what Australians would call ‘mates’ – and disturbed by the way things were progressing, they sat down one night and talked at length, both agreeing that they would never stoop to informing. But the informer network was already so well entrenched that someone else reported their meeting and both were separately taken in and questioned at length about the other’s loyalty to the regime.

One stuck to the promise he had made to his friend and said nothing, even when he was threatened with dismissal from the force. The other, promised rapid promotion and an easy life in the ‘new order’, saw the way things were going in the new Iraq and decided his first loyalty was to his family, (now there’s a familiar phrase), so for the sake of his family, he told his questioners what they wanted to hear, not just about his friend, but about others as well. He rationalized – (quite correctly, many here would say I’m sure) – that this was the only sensible course of action to take. People who insisted to standing by promises they had made in easier times were not being ‘realistic’, for it was obvious that the new government was here to stay.

And for twenty years or more, he prospered as one of the elite in a society where the elite lived a very good life. He was able to rationalize that the things he was asked to do in the execution of his everyday duties were quite normal, for the men who worked with him seemed to have no problem carring those duties out. But in the weeks after March 21st and the American invasion of his country, the safe cocoon he thought he’d built for himself came tumbling down, and suddenly bereft of that safe cocoon, he sought out his old friend, whose life had not been an easy one in the years since his dismissal from the force, and sought forgiveness. He was sure his friend would understand that it hadn’t been personal – everything he’d done, he’d done for his family. And his betrayal, had, after all, been over twenty years ago, and so much water had passed under the bridge since then that surely they could both put it all behind them?

[Ted Hunter]

Clive and Zoolander
it took courage and common sense to recover your positions in 1990,not everyone chose to jump off that cliff with them.
You do'nt need to qualify what was a great decision on your parts.
Your efforts and personalities was appreciated by all of us.


Ted

[amos2]

You are,of course,having clive and Zoo on,aren't you Ted?

[sniffer dog]

Interesting Clive and capt Zoo's bleatings about not being employable because of low time airlines etc, etc.

A very junior F/O (actually he wasn't chkd out on type-his first) went O/S with the rest of us in late '89 and became an F/O with a SE Asian carrier at the time, took his wife and new born with him DID it very hard for a while BUT had the support of his peers for his GUTS and CONVICTIONS.

This friend is now a 744 Captain and is only 36 yrs old so much for the "bull" of not being employable because of low time.

:ok:

[amos2]

Yes, well said Sniffer!...Clive,Zoo,and their ilk really are .... wonders aren't they?

About time they accepted their lot, stopped trying to justify themselves, got on with life and accepted the fact that they will never be accepted for anything other than what they are! ;)

[Eastwest Loco]

Again good people, I think we are still overlooking some of the pertinent points here, and one that has missed much attention is the roles of Brian and the AFAP in the debacle.

Our good and true '89er and "hero" mates did a Jack Newton following the lead of the AFAP directly into the path of a spinning propellor.

The forces that set the propellor in motion, ie: the Fat Dude and his minions with the SB for comedy relief knew just what to prey on, and did it perfectly.

Clarry the blind miner could see what was coming early on, but one small word explains why the impact was not seen earlier.

EGO.

Be honest gentlemen, ego is far from a dirty word, but it is what caused the "Custer's Last Stand" of the Australian industry.

Ego is something that you had to have in the first place to become what you are or were in your positions as Captains, FO's or Flight engineers as there still were then.

It is not a bad thing, but as it was only recognised by a few. The downside to an ego, the thing that allowed your self belief that facilitated your rise through the ranks is that it installed a feeling of invunerability. The shame is that the self belief is what makes an Airline Pilot what he or she is, and what makes you the consumate aviators you are or were.

So here we have a group of people, lead by someone hopelessly outgunned going head to head with an enemy that had all the I's dotted and the T's crossed, ready for every single move.

Many fell because of the approach taken, still convinced hey were invincible. Slowly some sat back and reviewed the data available and saw this, took a realism check and went back.

The division was another point of contention that the foe had preordained to further weaken the resolve of the now split factions, and it was played on to great effect.

Gentlemen, we from the bagchucker right through to the senior check Captain were had. It is time that was realised.

The villian, management/government. The catalyst, Ego. The victims, all of us.

Some still allow their ego to rule thoughts of this period. Now may be a very good time for review.

Best all

EWL

[sniffer dog]

EWL I was about to sign out and hit the cot, read your post you like a lot of others don't get it and never will like the likes of those that folded under pressure it is not about ego as you put it, it is in the inbred pysch of most Australians (obviously not Sc@#BS) which goes back to 1788 to not buckle under duress.
Just look at Gallipolli and the battle of Long Tan for examples one a disaster the other a victory SO DON'T GIVE US CRAP ABOUT EGO it had nothing to do with it.
One reason THOSE who fell as you put will never be recognised is that they HAD NO SPINE :mad: :mad:

[Eastwest Loco]

sniffer

I am sorry but cannot agree. I stood close to but apart from the debate, and still feel ego had a great deal to do with decisions of invunerability that were made in the early days of the dispute.

I still feel we were all victims of a conspiracy designed to restructure the Airline industry for long enough to allow the Fat Man to strip his company totally, as collapse was in his pudgy bloodshot eyes inevitable.

Sleep tight mate. The storm has passed.

Best regards

EWL

[elektra]

Look,

Some of you folks are missing the point, EWL included

Fact was, however we got into the'89 mess, whether it was ego, foolishness, protecting constitutional rights, lunacy or whatever, we had secret ballots that conclusively determined that we (ie.e the AFAP members) would hang together to the end. Win, lose or draw. To my clear recollection there were no conditions attached to the votes. Most followed the decision and a few didn't. Those who did stick together find it hard to forget those who voted one way and then ran the other.

Is there something I'm missing?

Anyway, my one major regret over the nearly 14 years is the blacklist put in place by the returnees. Most of our mates never did anyone any harm except to abide by their vote and a collective decision. That hardly seems a reason to deny them a career for ever.

As for life now...well I'm still an AFAP member and never have in 33 years doubted the wisdom of my union affiliation. And the 777 is a satisfactory replacement for the 727 I was flying in '89.

Safe flying

[Eastwest Loco]

Elektra

You and I are talking about the same thing.

The secret ballots etc were a sign of solidarity, but nobody expected the crew to all go down with the ship.

Not one here could honestly say that solidarity to the end would have made a scrap of difference, indeed it would have made it harder fo those '89ers who rejoined after capiulation o do so, as more overseas pilots and GA promotions would be in hose seats that remained.

The die were cast, and the fat lady had taken voice.

The dispute was decidedly Quixoic, with the AFAP tiling at windmills. Forget pledges, hey were invalidated very early on because the rules only became apparent well into the dispute.

One cannot be held to a "contract" when they were never properly explained what the conditions clause contained.

Best all

And good night from a tired Loco Bloke.

[phnompenhkid]

And for what it`s worth east West Loco, and I know it`s been said before, Ansett hadn`t reached the end of their contract. Australian had, but AN were mid way because of the leapfrog principle used in contract negotiations. They renewed in alternate years.

Is it any wonder that the fat man went in hard. AN threw down the gauntlet half way through their contract and as a consequence were in breach. They had agreed to the conditions therein for two years, and then wanted to change it half way through. If the companies had tried that on, the AFAP would have been horrified, but would have been justified in taking action.

To the average Joe, this might seem absurd, but not to the AFAP since they had never lost one.

That was about to change.

[Fubaar]

EWL, it's obvious you and the other posters on this page didn't take the time to read Spad's rather long story on page 5, which is a pity. Here's the crux of it: The two ... mates... sat down one night, both agreeing that they would never stoop to informing. But ... both were taken in and questioned ... about the other’s loyalty. One stuck to the promise he had made to his friend and said nothing.... The other, promised rapid promotion and an easy life in the ‘new order’, saw the way things were going ... and decided his first loyalty was to his family... Read it all. EWL. I'd be interested in hearing the "let's put 89l behind us and all be mates" 'spin' you put on it.

[Beech Boy]

So..................where is TJ these days fellas????

[Capt_Zoolander]

I have said this before on PPRune I will say it again, this war will not end until the last Pilot involved is dead!

I am not sure what some of the poster's here are going on about, and I frankly do not care. All I know is, I have a clear conscience and did what I believed was right thing and did not scab.

If some of the people here don't like it, that's too bad, what are you going to do? Sack me!

Because I did the right thing, I never got the opportunity to obtain a command, the junior scabs got my command instead. Also I am not particularly interested in anything that "Clive" has to say. The more observant people here may have noticed that I have never responded to any of his posts.


Firstly, I am one of the so called "dirty dozen", and I am proud to be one of them!

As a senior F/O, I had plenty of chances to "do the wrong thing". I chose to hang in "there", even in late December 1989, when I realised that some of our leaders had changed sides , I still stuck by my "guns". I knew we had lost but there was no way I would change sides. I was the guy that gave the "Fat Man" his knickname back in 1985. (just ask Jim)

During the "dispute" we were supposedly fighting for our jobs back. The AFAP asked me to resign, I "Resigned", they asked me, not to "scab", I did not SCAB. During the dispute when some of the senior AFAP figures tossed in the towel, we were told that "it was OK as they were working from the inside to fix the problem"

When the AFAP told us it was "OK" now to apply, I received the same response as everyone else, basically, "get stuffed!"

About a year later (after going through the same recruitment "B###Sh##" as an intake F/O), I was offered a postion in Melbourne
as an "intake F/O". I was stripped of any recognition of previous service.

I think you can, "get the idea".


Here are my responses to some of the posts by "The posters", I think some of them are probably the guys who were going to fix things from the inside.


To Ted Hunter,


Are you for real?


Ted Hunter

Clive and Zoolander
it took courage and common sense to recover your positions in 1990,not everyone chose to jump off that cliff with them.
You do'nt need to qualify what was a great decision on your parts.
Your efforts and personalities was appreciated by all of us.




Sniffer Dog

Interesting Clive and capt Zoo's bleatings about not being employable because of low time airlines etc, etc.

** These were Clive's words not mine


A very junior F/O (actually he wasn't chkd out on type-his first) went O/S with the rest of us in late '89 and became an F/O with a SE Asian carrier at the time, took his wife and new born with him DID it very hard for a while BUT had the support of his peers for his GUTS and CONVICTIONS.

** Good, I am pleased that he got what he wanted, but I don't see what that has to do with me.

This friend is now a 744 Captain and is only 36 yrs old so much for the "bull" of not being employable because of low time.


** Good on him!






Amos2

Yes, well said Sniffer!...Clive,Zoo,and their ilk really are .... wonders aren't they?

About time they accepted their lot, stopped trying to justify themselves, got on with life and accepted the fact that they will never be accepted for anything other than what they are!


And what is that Amos2?



What would you recommend that the next generation do when asked by their union to resign their jobs! Will you tell them that after 17 Months of fighting for their jobs back, they will be treated the same way as the scabs if they dare to accept them.






:cool: :cool: :cool:

[Tankengine]

From what I can see from this Capt Zoolander went back after the AFAP said "go for it" [March 1990?] therefore I cannot see what Amos 2 etc. have a problem with.
I can understand why some did not re apply.
I am Qantas since before 89 so watched from the side luckily. Thanks to the late AIPA pres and others we had already split from the AFAP for good reasons.
A question : what if at every vote you voted NOT to resign and go back to work because you could see it was never going to work?
ie: was the vote to resign 100%? [I doubt it!]

[phnompenhkid]

Tankengine,

Good question, because there was NO vote taken on whether to resign.

In fact, we were told at midnight, ten hours before the AFAP put us all out of a job, that the resignations would NOT be used. They would be waved in front of the management to frighten them into submission. No further contact was made with the membership prior to tendering those resignations, i.e., they were tendered WITHOUT the knowledge of those who signed them.

Can you blame anyone for going back under those circumstances, and in retrospect would anyone ever trust their bloody union, or sign anything so stupid?

The only surprise to me is that all the slots weren`t filled by 1100 that day!

[Eastwest Loco]

fubaar

I have read what spad wrote - in full and found it very erudite and to the point.

God knows the hurt that has affected all involved for both sides.

The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought. This was another.

This was a civilain battle, but nearly as bloody in some ways.

Not for one second do I expect all of you to run out and hug each other.

Please read what was written by me and others.

The battle was unwinable from the start. Some chose to recognise this and go back, some ignored and others realised and still fought to the death.

It is about mates, but it is also about familes and unfortunately in some cases greed and opportunism.

Rationalise for me please the ethics of the TN '89er who was operating his own DeHavilland Dove MBW DPO on charter during the dispute at above premium seat prices with his FA wife I believe as cabin crew? Did any of this opportunistic revenue find its way back into the fighting funds? That gentleman, and I suspect a few others would have made an absolute motza.

It could also be asked if the striking pilots had the right to ruin the livelyhoods of thousands of fellow Australians in the first place. Hundreds of small tourist businesses and even large hotels such as Hadleys in Hobart went into bankrupcy or receivership beacuse of the action of their countrymen. Unfortunately for even more, they would have gone the same way if some did not return. Take what was lost by the pilots as a group and try multiplying by many thousand times to get close to the losses suffered by businesses across the country.

THAT is the lost point. Staying out was a heartfelt decision for many that changed their lives forever, just as going back was a huge wrench for others. The silent majority quietly got on with rebuilding their lives, shattered and bloodied by the dispute but with barely a whimper.

Also, while you all conspire to snipe at each other over a situation you had no control over 14 years ago, you are leaving yourselves wide open for a repeat of enforced restructuring. This will only lead to the same set of events coming back into play.

This whole thing nearly shagged the country 14 years ago, and guess what guys??

IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!!!!

Please - all - get over it. It is done and the most important thing you can possibly do is to agree to disagree, lose the venom and start watching out for the industry together. We all need you.

There is no Fat Man now - the Silver Bodgie is a mere fart in the 2003 bath, and the excesses of the TNT/News years are gone, unfortunately taking a magnificent Airline down with them.

Brave new world people, just forget if you can, forgive if you have it in you but most of all never allow it to happen again.

best ALL

EWL

[Sid Departure]

To Capt. Zoolander and Clive - Thanks so much for your very imformative posts. You have put forward a perspecive of the dispute that many of us have not heard before. My Question to either one of you is, did any of the "13" that were accepted back to Ansett ever get a command? If not, then, what reason did Ansett give you for being denied your rightful career progression?

Now your answer leads me to another question to PPK. ( this is nothing personal against you , it's just you seem to be a current spokesman for the "one's that went back"). If these guy's were deined commands, did you ever speak up against this injustice?
If not, then why not?


Cheers Sid.

[leftfrontside]

Sorry EWL but I take umbrage at the fact that we collectively were responsible for businesses going to the wall. DON'T FORGET THE PILOTS WERE GETTING WELL AND TRUELY SCREWED BY THE ACCORD. The Silver Bodgie's baby!

While you and your mates on overtime, shift allowance and all the other BS you and your union mates could dream up, you well and truely had your snouts in the trough clearing as you said in a previous post $2500 per fortnight. Some pilots only dreamt about that sort of take home pay.

And before you get carried away with your next "bleeding heart salvo" my last Group Cert AN '88-"89 was 88K and I was a TCAPT.

Give us a break if you can't post something sensible DON'T.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

This will not be over until all the participants are in pine boxes - sorry :sad:

[bentwings]

EWL said
The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought.
A very inconsiderate and thoughtless statement on behalf of the more than 100,000 Australian war dead.
Lest We Forget

[leftfrontside]

Well put bentwings, I always thought EWL had some positive input to give this forum but lately he seems to be losing the plot!:8

[Betelgeuse]

EWL – you say

“The battle was unwinable from the start. Some chose to recognise this and go back, some ignored and others realised and still fought to the death.”

At the beginning, the “battle” was about a negotiation of our working conditions and remuneration.

As the dispute unfolded, it became a battle for our professional aviation lives.

Most of us recognized what it had become, and precisely for that reason MOST of us resolved not to “go back” without a negotiated settlement.

A few saw an opportunity to gain an advantage at the expense of their former friends and colleagues.

Your characterization of the scabs as being simply those who “chose to recognize this and go back” fails to recognize that this dispute was about far more than a simple salary dispute. In fact you allude to this point in many of your posts.

Do you really believe that without phnompenhkid and his ilk the dispute would have ended with the exile or blackban of 80% of the Australian RPT pilot workforce?

[MTOW]

Even though some totally misinformed Americans might disagree, the vast majority of the Australian population lives today in what must arguably be the most free and equal society for the common man ever to grace this earth. This has come to pass only because citizen soldiers have in the past died to protect that very society from enemies who had very different plans for the country and its inhabitants had they won. (Let me cite our Japanese neighbours and their ‘South East Asian Co-prosperity Sphere’ only sixty years ago as the prime example, although anyone with any doubts about the life we might had lead under the Germans had they won either World War need only take a quick trip to the movies and check out The Pianist.)

That’s what makes me shake my head in sheer wonder at people who say: “The most important military battles of all time involving Australians were in the end for nought.”. EWL, think about what you just said. It’s so ridiculous, it’s on a par in the reality stakes with your comments about 1989.

[Snowballs]

EWL

As a student quoting history your knowledge is fairly limited. The events of the famous shearers strikes late 1800’s and during the early part of the 1900’s, are still part of Australian folk law, and had continuing affects on the participants and their families long after most of them had passed away.
The events of 89, love or hate, are now part of history and will affect the life of the participants and their families for a long time. Too many good people were grievously hurt and scarred both financially and emotionally.
It is totally naïve to expect people to forget, most will learn to cope with it, but most will never forget. It’s just not going to happen so get on with life and accept your lot. If you happen to be from the wrong side of the fence I guess you will just have to learn live with it in your own way.
To compare yourself or 1989 with Australian military history is sick.

[TheNightOwl]

Too right, Snowballs, the 89 dispute was in no way connected to Australia's military history. It began as a biennial review of the pay structure of TN Technical Crew, was seen by the greedy, opportunist hierarchy of the AFAP as a Heaven-sent opportunity to separate themselves from the "Accord" so beloved of the Silver Bodgie, and degenerated into a free-for-all fight for money by a group of individuals who mis-judged their political clout and popular appeal. The fact that the AFAP involved AN is, to my mind, the most amazing example of naivete I witnessed in decades. The AN crews' review was due the following year, yet the Federation wonders to this day why the Fat Man and his off-siders spat the collective dummy when confronted with the situation NOT OF THEIR MAKING. Just how stupid can you get?

As for EWL's comments, just take the time to read between his lines. If he doesn't consider me impertinent for putting my interpretation on them, it seems to me that he is trying to pour oil on very troubled waters by drawing the analogy between military mates and the pilots involved, with their respective and collective care for each other. There are military men just as opportunist and greedy as the AFAP showed itself to be, but he points out that there are also heroes on both sides. I use the word "heroes" NOT in the perjorative sense it has come to mean when used by the '89ers. Like many others not directly part of the dispute, but VERY involved and affected, his love of the industry has never wavered, any more than it has been partisan toward any group or airline. It is often easier for those of us on the sidelines to see a bigger, and clearer, picture than those of you "up close and personal". Just give him the respect his loyalty over the years deserves.

Kind regards to ALL,

TheNightOwl. :D

[Eastwest Loco]

Nightowl - Thank you for correcting the spin on a ball that obviously came out of the back of my hand. That was the point I so poorly tried to get across. I appreciate the comments very much, however I am just another number as the tag says.

Bentwings - Great Military battles. Read Gallipoli - a magnificent defeat in a war eventually won, but run by British buffoons with total power. Long Tan - battle won - war thrown away through de-escalation. etc. There is absolutely no disrespect meant in that to those lost overseas and at home in the Services, and I struggle to find any way that offense could be taken in that way.

The shearers strike was not in my recollection a Military action.

Betelgeuse - Yes, it was indeed started as negotiations from the AFAP side, but TN and in particular AN and the slime ball were in no mood for negotiation.

The restructure was planned, and was going to happen no matter what.

Snowballs - I would no more compare myself with anyone involved in the proud Australian Military history than bump my backside on the moon. It is not my place to compare myself to those braver than I will ever be. You draw far too long a bow, and I find THAT offensive. I must have been studying English while you were studying folk lore. See me after class.

Leftfrontside - The effect of the strike is well documented on the community, and the question was asked many times over who had a right to do that but please read the bold print - IT WAS NOT THE FAULT OF ANY ONE OF YOU!!!!!

At the time of the strike, when we were innundated with thousands of very upset punters, yes - we were all very peed off that the strike had happened at all. When the initial smoke cleared, the true villians' black hats could be seen and the changes started to rain on down.

Also, the $2500 was an example of how screwed the industry was. That was one huge fortnight, and the point was that AN was not putting on staff. I left AN ADL after 11 weeks and got a job back here in travel, as no marriage could withstand the hours required. No or few days off and leave in darkness - return in darkness even with daylight saving. 153 hour fortnights are not funny. By the way, the grade 1 Traffic base rate was about $14.00 and hour. Easy street?? I do not think so.

The guts of it is that as said, but ignored, the whole thing was manufactured and a fait acomplis before negotiations ever started. There is a great deal of blame to be laid, but at the feet of the Airlines and the Bodgie Government.

I notice that the mention of the TN '89er who profited from the situation with his DHD running charters was studiously ignored. No opinions on that, or was the entry just skimmed without taking it all in context?

Please read the full post before you jump in, good people. One thing may and usually does relate to another.

I have no axe to grind as I have accepted that it will do absolutely no good at all.

What has also been missed is the worry of a similar restructuring as I mentioned. The Airlines are fighting a declining market, but are you gentlemen an ladies in a position to provide a united front against a new hatchet job? I feel the division has left you very vunerable.

Best all

EWL

Edited for grammar. Now I am going to have to see myself after class too.

EWL

[leftfrontside]

EWL I admire you Ron there's no way you can convince me that had you been involved with us in '89 that you still wouldn't be with us now, in fact I really think that you would like to be - I propose that we give you honary membership.

So you stepped on a few toes yesterday you took it well when we took you on and came back again - "it's not the dog in the fight it's the fight in the dog" right!

Please understand the Scabs will always be "persona non gratia" AND there will never be a reconcilliation and our prodgeny will always remind their's that their fathers and the odd mother were Scabs, long after we're gone.

as I said earlier this will not be over until all the partcipants are in pine boxes - sorry :sad: