Irish Spitfires

[Dr Jekyll]

Reading recently about the 2 seat Spitfires the Irish air corps used until the early 1960's, a thought struck me.
What exactly do you use a 2 seat Spitfire for other than training people to fly Spitfires?
Did they use them for something other than training? If they were used as trainers, what could they possibly be operating that was like a Spitfire only more demanding?

[FNG]

I believe that they may have had a few single seaters, including one or two impounded after crash landing in the 1940s. Patriotic Irishman as I am, I've never really seen the point of the Irish Air Corps, although perhaps it would have come in handy if they had done the sensible thing and invaded the North in 1969. Fouga Magister vs English Electric Lightning, anyone? Come to think of it, a Spitfire might be better against a Lightning, on the basis that , as RAF tests in the 1960s showed, neither can get a shot on the other (if the Lightning threatens, the Spitfire just turns left, if the Spitfire threatens, the Lightning just ignites and climbs away).


Edit: they bought single seat Seafires after the war, to replace the 20 Hurricanes which they had before, hence a role for the two seaters.

http://www.military.ie/aircorps/history4.htm

Another edit: they didn't get the Magisters until 1975, so would have had to strafe Rev Paisley with Vampires.

[OutsideLookingIn]

The two-seaters were used for training and in a time of conflict the rear seat, controls and canopy would have been taken out and the planes pressed into service as fighters. The IAC received all the armaments of the converted two-seaters and had them in storage for just such an occasion. By the way, the Spits with the rear canopy level with the front were specially converted for the IAC, RAF two-seaters (and there were a few) had the rear canopy higher than the front to allow the trainees a forward view.

[treadigraph]

Outside, are you sure about the inline rear cockpits? I'm sure the pics I've seen of IAC TrIXs had the raised rear cockpit - I thought the inline mod first appeared with Nick Grace's wonderful restoration of G-LFIX in the 1980s and was copied for the rebuild of the sad G-TRIX (and others?).

I would have assumed that the rear office was the instructor's and was raised so he could keep an eye on things; As I recall, Nick Grace lowered the cockpit to try and keep the lines of the original aircraft and I suppose his idea was more to take people flying in a Spit rather than to instruct on it...

[greybeard]

Had the pleasure of 20 mins in the Grace in 1993, best fun I have had with my clothes on, EVER.

In line cockpit made the Stick a bit higher that was easy, comment at that time was the original canopy was too hard to get.
Visibility was reduced even for my 183cm, and I just fitted in the area with a very thin shute pack.

If you ever get the chance, DO IT, hang the expense.

:ok:

[Vere de fakawee]

G-TRIX is currently being rebuilt at Duxford, and will again have an original rear cockpit, and will also be painted in IAC colours.

[corsair]

Couple of errors or ten crept into some of the above. The Air Corps bought the Spits to train because the Seafires were rather skittish compared to the good old stable Hurricanes. So I suppose to answere Dr Jekyll's original question, Seafires were more demanding than than Spit.

They never impounded any Spitfires during the war, they got a couple of Hurricanes that way although they actually bought the ones that landed. The RAF even sent over an officer to train the Air Corps to fly them. This at the same time there were RAF crew interned in the Curragh camp. It was a funny war really.

The Seafire III's were not overly liked by the Air Corps and a few were lost in fatals, there's one still embedded in a hill near Dublin. They originally wanted spit 9's but Britain wouldn't sell them any even though they were giving them away to all and sundry at the time. In fact on the delivery flight of the Seafires they were weathered in at, I think High Ercall, which was covered in Spit 9's as far as the eye could see. So the Air Corps were lumbered with a bunch of retreaded old naval fighters complete with wing fold mechanisms. Bear in mind just how many of these were simply dumped overboard from carriers after the war.

The RAF never used two seat Spits, the Russians apparently converted a few of their own. But the Irish nines were converted specifically for them and all had the higher canopies. They outlasted all the Seafires, they were gone by 1955. One Seafire has survived. I saw the fuselage a few years ago and I believe it's being rebuilt somewhere in the UK.

The Spits lasted until the sixties and got a new lease of life with the Battle of Britain film.

They were the last fighters to serve with the Air Corps, the Vampires were trainers as were the Fouga Magisters. Which brings us back to Jekyll's original question. What do you need trainers for when you have nothing to move up to? They are getting PC-9's now, advanced trainers similar in performance level to the Spitfire. Full circle or what?