Flying in Beirut. Please help!!

[tomcat21]

Hi there folks. I am from the US and have never done any intl. flying. Got a job offer flying a Hawker in Beirut. Thought the pay was really low, 30K/yr when the avg is 60 to 90K a year here in the states. With all the stuff going on I would like some advice from anyone who has been or flown there, or might know who these people are and why they would pay so low. They offered me that and 75/day per diem. Also is it safe? Thanks alot.

[4HolerPoler]

30K is very low for a Hawker job. Might be the going rate for a RHS job but you should pull at least 6-7k (tax-free) a month in the left. Beirut is fine. Cosmopolitan lifestyle but it's expensive and there are vastly different levels of places to live there. Make sure you've got that tied up & post the suggested living arrangements for comments. Taxis aren't that expensive - driving is a bit crazy, especially if you're not used to life over here.

The operation shouldn't be a problem; the handling companies are OK.

PM me if you need any specifics.

4HP

[homesick rae]

Had a great time there 95...plenty to see and do...beautiful country...Interesting golf course...driving's a bit mad and you can still get a "feel" of how it used to be living there!

[tomcat21]

How do these companies treat the crew? Do they screw you on pay? i thought 30K was very low. How much will I need to get by on everyday? What about anti-american sentiment, is it safe for me there? Also will I need to get overflight permits for some countries? Thanks. One last thing, if I bring my fiance there can she find work, and are the laws as crazy as they are in Saudi? Thanks.

[4HolerPoler]

How do they treat you? I dunno. But with a salary of 30K I've got an idea.

How much per day? Tough call - you don't say whether accom or transport is provided. You need more gen. Cost of Living is European unless you really slum it. Nightlife is expensive.

No problem being a Yank. Doesn't hurt to keep a low profile.

Yup, lot of places there need overflights. No problem.

Your lady will do OK there. Depends on where you live.

It's a normal place. No crazy laws. Stay in the right places. But that costs. You need more gen before you're ready to seriously consider this job. Dive in & you'll regret it.

4HP

[Paterbrat]

Tomcat, 30K is right seat salary. The job sounds like ASAS and if so the plane is an ex Dalah plane. Been reasonably hard flown and probably a little worn. I do know that one maintainance outfit were not impressed, apparently leaked quite a lot, and probably been banged in a bit hard. Over by the TMA hanger in OLBA waiting for re-registration. They are familiar with the overflight permit situation and will obtain any you need. Should be OK as a US cit just don't flaunt it. Beirut can be expensive so check if they are providing accommodation, car. 75 per diem is low average, they should give hotel and laundry with that but get it on paper. With regard to the fiance, check she may well need a work permit as a foreigner. It is nothing like Saudi, but then horses for courses.

[tomcat21]

Paterbrat, that is exactly right!! The plane was in the UK and flown over a few days ago. When I originally got the email for this job I had told him 6K/month for Captain. He came back with 30K/yr. I think the only reason I decided to take it was #1 Its intl. expierience and I really want that bad #2 I had no other offers. Now I have 3 offers all at the same time here in the US which pay alot more but I feel bad as I had accepted this job in Beirut and I hate to screw anyone. Yes, it is getting reregistered. Please tell me the whole story as I need to make a decision this week on going over there. All I know is they want me initially for a 3 month contract, they also have a Citation and the copilots name is Monser. He just went thru training here in the US. I believe the owner of the company flies for some big shot in the government in Lebanon. They told me 75/ day in the ME and 100/day in Europe as perdiem. Housing would be furnished. The guy I have been dealing with his name is Jay Fadel and he owns some aviation company here in the US. Can you tell me what I am really getting into. Why would they pay me so low? Let me guess they want me to fly for 3 months to get there copilot up to speed. This guy Jay wouldn't budge when I told him the pay I need. How crappy is this plane? They also own a Citation which they want me to fly. This guy Jay made it seem that this company treats its pilots like gold. They said I would also have a base in Jeddah, SA. Please, I have taken a job here in the US if I want it and I am ready to leave with my fiance to Beirut so anything you know would really help me out. I have a feeling when I get there I would get screwed on the pay. They told me they want to register the plane in Aruba or SA. Please let me know what to do. Thanks.

[Paterbrat]

Tomcat, that pay for a Captain is very low. The boss works for a Saudi and has many aviation interests. I know ASAS as a handling agent they seem efficient and do their job well. The Citation has not been as successful as hoped since the range is a bit limiting hence the move up to the 125. The aircraft has been well used and maint perhaps not quite as good as it could have been, it has been to a number of facilities instead of sticking mainly to one, a mistake in my humble opinion, as no-one then feels particularly responsible, or interested in it. With regard to the re-reging, Aruba reg was comparitively simple, I used to operate a 72 with one, but I think they have tightened up a bit with regard to Operators Certificates, SA reg will pose problems with the PCA with regard to charter. Both pose potential problems.
I feel that your hunch has validity and you might possibly just be fill in, but I certainly don't know.
Glad to hear you don't want to screw them around, have you signed anything yet? Regardless of that, my advice is a bird or three in the hand is worth ... Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.
Stateside may not be as glamerous but if you are contemplating marriage than the stress and uncertainty, combined with what you feel to be an unsatisfactory renumeration, do not make it easy for a harmonious relationship, particularly with the added stress on her in an unfamiliar environment, believe me I know.
Life here at the moment is uncertain, and US cit's are vulnerable. There are at least some elements of Lebanese society that are extremists. If this sounds a little alarmist, I have always rather been safe than sorry and most expats at the moment out in these parts are maintaining a somewhat lower profile than before and being carefull. It is not the most auspicious time to start out here. Sorry if that sound a bit pessamistic but that is simply my present opinion as requested.

[tomcat21]

Paterbrat, thanks again for the input. I found out today the Hawker is going to be registered under Lebanon. I don't know anything about there laws but do I need to do a part 135 checkride for them if they are using the pane on charter. The way they described it to me that it would be part 91 but they want to market the plane which tells me that it is a charter and I don't want to screw myself. I think the owner flies for the prime minister or something. Can u give me specifics? How bad sahpe is the Hawker? Do u know how many pilots they have and is there noone qualified on the Hawker over there? I was kind of surprised when I saw the advertisment in the USA. What is the going pay I should ask for? They want me to fly the Citation to. Does the owner screw people out of money? Where do they mostly fly to? How big is the company? What happens if I get over there and then they dont pay me? Sorry about all the questions. Do u think they will get even bigger airplanes later? I just don't know what to do. I was thinking if I come there I can go and travel when we are away on a trip for a few days. I know they have a base in Jeddah too. Thanks for any advice.

[Paterbrat]

AS far as I know they have two Lebanese pilots for the Citation and I doubt they are Hawker qualified if they are advertising for a Captain.
If the system in Lebanon is anything like the system in Saudi they may just use the FAR's and issue Lebanese licences based on your US licence. They almost certainly are chartering and almost as certainly probably trying to do it under part 91, but speculation on my part.
I am not sure that the boss flies for Hariri, but still for Dallah in Saudi.
60K would be ballpark for dual rated Captain flying both Hawker and Citation.
Mainly in the region, Amman Jordan, Cyprus, Egypt, Syria, Saudi, the Emirates, Kuwait. Probably occasionaly up to Europe would be the expected trips.
Don't know how they are on paying staff. My guess is that they may well be OK, they seem to retain local staff indicating perhaps that they do not screw people unduley. Ousiders though are another matter.
It is one of perhaps two FBOs has at least two aircraft, I am not sure if the Cessna twin piston is theirs. The Hawker is their latest purchase and I suspect they got it quite cheaply, it is pretty old and he works for the company it was bought from. I don't see them expanding much more too soon as the market at the moment is very quiet.
The base in Jeddah is probably simply because that is where they will pricipaly fly to, and where the boss himself works out of. His wife Naila runs the Beirut FBO.
The chances are if you are not flying you are on permanent standby. That's how it is in corporate generaly, so don't count on too much travel, other than where your next destination is.

[tomcat21]

Paterbrat, I emailed them today and said I at least need 60K. We shall see what happens. I took a job here in the states on a Citation and the company here paid for my reccurent so I told the people in Beirut that they will need to reimburse this company if I am too leave them. Spoke to Jet Aviation in the UK where they worked on this Hawker. Said the leak was more like a weep and its from the maxarets ie antiskid. Otherwise said its a good plane and was former Saudi charter company a/c. How will I like Jeddah? BTW what do u do over there?

[Paterbrat]

Tennis, squash, golf, windsurfing, scuba diving( still very good here, though it has deteriorated over the years) riding, camping, microlighting( new and haven't tried it yet) waterskiing, fishing( trolling, have had three sailfish) bottom fishing and bridge. Since my boys have left activities are dying down but still plenty to do here, though we have just lost one of the golf courses recently. Other activities/hobbies involve chemistry, though undertaken with caution. Other than these, as little as possible

[tomcat21]

Paterbrat, I told them the money I need and I don't think they will go for it so I am going to reject there offer. Maybe next year. I just need some adventure as its so boring flying in the US. Do u have any pics you can send me?