Still flying after Ansett

[Wirraway]

Wed "Sydney Morning Herald"

Still flying after Ansett

http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1049567681226_2003/04/08/9wld_mekong_airlines,0.jpg
Flying high ... Ross Martin, centre, and Gary Staff, second from right, with Cambodian cabin crew from one of their flights. Photo: Valerie Khoo

One of the world's newest airlines is being kept in the air by a bunch of Australians, reports Valerie Khoo.

Last month, pilot Ross Martin landed a Boeing 737 aircraft in Cambodia. As captain, he delivered his usual arrival announcement over the public address system. At the end of his spiel, Martin concluded with "Enjoy your stay here and thank you for flying Ansett."

It seems that old habits die hard. After spending 17 years at Ansett, Martin found himself out of a job when the airline collapsed 18 months ago. Now, he's back in the air. "Of course I got straight back on to the PA," says Martin. "I said 'I'm terribly sorry, that was the airline I used to fly for. Thank you for flying Mekong Airlines'."

Mekong, Cambodia's newest airline, has been in the air for about 2 months. Following the collapse of Royal Air Cambodge, Cambodia has been without national carrier since October 2001. However, a consortium of Cambodian, American and Australian investors launched the airline in January this year, with an all-Australian management team.

The Boeing 737 is the airline's only aircraft, though it plans to obtain a second in the next few months. Its destinations, too, are limited, flying to Hong Kong, Singapore and Kuala Lumpur. Other Asian capitals are, however, in its sights.

Martin is just one former Ansett employee carving a fresh life in the Cambodian capital of Phnom Penh. However, there are a lot of familiar faces as all 11 pilots and engineers of Mekong are from Ansett.

A first officer, Gary Staff, who spent 31 years with Ansett, took labouring jobs in Australia before accepting a pilot's post in Indonesia late last year. In mid-February he was offered the job with Mekong and packed up within three days. "I wanted to be with the guys," says Staff.

The Australians are optimistic and enthusiastic about Mekong's future. The maintenance planner, Joe Marchese: "The guys here are working extremely hard. It's a very good feeling and to get something like this off the ground is pretty special. It can be hard because I miss my wife and son badly, but then the camaraderie here is fantastic.

"We talk about the old times and how good it was. We curse John Howard, John Anderson, Geoff Dixon and all those people responsible for our downfall." Marchese was with Ansett for 35 years.

Most of the pilots and engineers live in the same apartment building, a refurbished French colonial block in the heart of Phnom Penh. With unofficial drinks held nightly at 7 by the central swimming pool, they have a ready-made social life and posse of mates. "We call the apartment Club Med Cambodia," says engineer Mark Hinchliffe, formerly based in Perth. "And it's nice to bump into people you know when you come home."

Hinchliffe took occasional short-term contract work with light-aircraft operators after being with Ansett for 22 years. He says his decision to move to Cambodia came down to economics. "I didn't want to live away from my family but we either had to sell the house or move somewhere smaller, or I could get a regular income with the job up here."

Hinchliffe keeps in touch with his wife and two children through regular webcam sessions, but is also making the most of his stay in Cambodia. "Phnom Penh is still a bit of a cowboy town," he says. "There's a lot of excitement, traffic and a real feel of the Far East." Having bought a motorbike, he is planning short trips into the countryside and visits to the ancient ruins of Angkor Wat.

The Australians have given Mekong Airlines an instant history and corporate culture, echoing the halcyon days of Ansett. Marchese says: "The Ansett spirit is still alive; it re-emerged in this small pocket in Cambodia. We're like a family over here and it's like being brothers-at-arms - a bunch of Australians, away from home, scratching to make a living."

[DIRK DIGGLER]

Scratch on S**BS!

[Z Force]

DIRK DIGGLER, you now have me confused. That's Dirk Diggler from Ansett in the photo but you're calling him a scab. Would the real Dirk Diggler please stand up.

[Mr. Boeing]

Dirk Diggler. For your information, one of the pilots in the picture is an ex flight engineer and was not involved in the dispute. I would suggest an apology is in order.

[Casper]

All of this was done 14 years ago by the MAJORITY (try 80%) of ex AN & TN pilots.

[Betelgeuse]

I don't see a "Staff" on my scablist - seems he's not one of 'em.

Good luck Mr. Staff.

Nakry still looks as good as ever!

[phnompenhkid]

Years ago, when we lived in a less enlightened, more insular, country, new arrivals to our shores were called 'w_gs' by our bigoted, uneducated masses. These days, these very people wear the tag with pride. I have many European friends who see it as not derogatory in any way - of course the delivery and tone can change that, but when delivered good naturedly, it's fine.

So with 'scab'. Who cares. It's no big deal, or any deal at all, to me or any whom I know, but only to the tiny minds who perpetuate the hatred and bigotry from which they are incapable of escape. What you guys should remember is that many of the FEs commenced training before the AFAP said it was OK to go back, so that would lump them into that group who are so despised by the world, and who will never work as pilots anywhere in the world again, and wear that terrible tag, and will do so for the rest of their happy lives.

You're right on one thing, beetlegoose, Nakry is still a good looker, but Lavann is in another class altogether, as is Linda.
Incidentally, we put on a party for them recently, and many of them thanked us for treating them like real people, and not 'poor people' as did another group of Australians a long time ago. Can't imagine who that bitter and twisted group were????

Casper, you're right! It was done by a lot of guys a long time ago, and but a few are happy with their decisions, flying equipment that they would never have had access to if they'd stayed in Oz. There are just a few malcontents though, recalcitrant, objectionable individuals who continue sling abuse because they f....ed up their lives by follwing the AFAP's ridciulous position and aren't happy flying a DC3 in Algeria. They're evident on pprune by their malicious, vindictive posts. They seem to gain some perverse satisfaction from beating themselves up and 'maintaining the rage'. You seem to be a well adjusted chap. Keep it up.

[Al E. Vator]

Bollocks. Don't normally comment on this stuff 'cos it's futile - minds are made up.

But let me correct an isuue or two with you sir. Karma? dunno. But having lost a house principally because of a selfish few back in those days (remember those who supported "the AFAP's ridiculous position" and then snuck off like snakes to jump in ahead of others on the seniority list) the ex Ansett persons' statement is rather amusing.

"I didn't want to live away from my family but we either had to sell the house or move somewhere smaller, or I could get a regular income with the job up here." Harsh as it may sound, to me that is irony in its purest form.

Political Correctness has it's deserved place. Calling somebody a "w0g" or whatevever else is certainly stupid because it's invariably discriminatory and based on something the recipient has little or no control over.

But don't try to parallel that ignorance in an attempt to unload the title to which you have earned. A scab is a scab, a title earned by actions of the recipients own choice. The term is not offensive and the definition is in the dictionary -"Person who breaks rules of his trade or group". If you screw your colleagues for your own personal selfish ends then fine, but don't bleat when somebody labels you the dictionary definition of what you are.

I actually think it's great people are getting on with their lives and really this whole '89 thing is a bit tired now (for crying out loud). But don't try to change history or facts. It's like saying in 10 years "Oh well Saddam really wasn't that bad eh". But he was a Class 1 pr1ck, no amount of time will alter that. And a scab is a scab no matter how hard you try to change reality.

Good luck to you sir in Pnomh Penh but please don't expect sympathy for your plight and don't try to sanitise the effects of your selfishness and minimise the reality of what you did and what the dictionary defines you correctly as.

Indeed, don't dwell on 1989, it's unhealthy I reckon BUT like the Japanese who have tried to sanitise the memory of their actions 60 years ago, I fear you are trying to do the same That IS something I get annoyed about.

Yes I know I'm a tosser for saying the above, it's a bit harsher than my usual dull posts and hope I don't cause undue offence etc etc.................... Whatever. My next input on the topic will probably be in 2013, such is the futility of input on this emotional subject anyhow. Just don't try to distort historical fact by alligning those who simply refer to you as you are with those who use discriminatory invective.

[woopwooppulup]

Do any of you guys up their no of a new airline that is or going to operate a Fokker 50 in the region?
thanks.

[Eastwest Loco]

Ok - let's get serious here.

We have a startup carrier with no representation in Australia.

I have a 1800 number up and operating - full IATA - License - and Travel Compensation fund membership.

Please advise who I talk to in order to get Australian representation for the carrier.

It would be good for my operation, which I have just bought out from the other partners and my great crew would be able to act as a wholesaler within Australia for Mekong.

Since Eeenie Weenie was pulled out from under me by a former incarnation of Ansett, I have been fretting for an Airline to cal "mine" again.

As for the Ansett Spirit - it is very much alive in my office. I traded a BA 747-200 model for a brass Ansett Australia business card holder the other day to go with my Ansett Airfreight wood and (simulated) pewter one, and second rank of the display of commercial airliner models in the office is all AN - total of 6 AN/KD with a 762 that lives at home in the Aussie flag livery.

Only the East-West treasures ride above them.

if anyone can help with contacts, please let me know at work email or here.

Work email is [email protected] - toll free in Oz is 1800067207 - fax and fone from overseas are ++61 364 233244 for phone ++ 61 364 233255 for fax.

Be well all

EWL

Ron Knight

[Okie]

Pacific Airlines Vietnam might be able to give you some business.
http://www.pacificairlines.com.vn/

[Eastwest Loco]

Thanks Okie

Brgds

EWL

[LooseConnection]

What a load of BS re AN, it was a small 2nd rate outfit by World Standards all it's life and after '89 was on a downhill slide until it speared over the cliff in 2001. RIP

Mismanaged from top to bottom even in it's Flight Dept. It's demise was predictable even before '89.

Casper was right all this was done 14yrs ago so to Wirraway we can do without this sort of "Horses.......t" because as AL E Vator said they are Scabs (Mr Staff exc) and always will be, they are the "gutter feeders" of the Aviation Industry.

My thoughts are that Cambodia is to good for them, perhaps downtown Bagdad or Outer Mongolia would be more appropriate. :} :} :yuk: :yuk:

[Ralph the Bong]

Anyway, congrats boys. Just remember to tarp up with the LBFMs or get yerself a safe little LHD:= :)

[mainwheel]

More photo's please, if it's from a digital camera!!!.

[missleadfoot]

Hey these guys are bloody lucky to have a job, with a new airline, and away from the crap and competition they would have had to put up with here in OZ. I don't know much about what you guys bitch about but from what I have read you really need to grow up. Yes it may be an industry, but it is also a way of making a living, a job, career, a passion, and a means to an end. There are some of you pilots out there that get stuck into anyone who goes outside the comfortable stable that has been in place for decades. Please get real and move with the times. There are so many commercial pilots out there without a job, and I admire their will to go anywhere to find work. They are not the scabs. Have you ever thought about what you would do if you lost your career? By not supporting them, just critisizing them for obtaining work with other airlines, you are the unfortunate . From what I have read over the months here, many of you are just so scared of losing your conditions, negotiations with APIA, etc. It started with DJ, then the fall of Ansett and the start up of AO. Proof is here, not by all but certainly by some disheartened regular posters. What is your problem? The good old days are gone, finished, but not buried, yet, but it will happen. That is inevidble.

The point of this post is, hey, let pilots fly with whom ever they can obtain work with. You are still a team and should hold regard for each other. If you don't like the thought that your conditions may be changed, go on strike!! I'd like to see that!!

No offence to any of my Techies, it's just a minority of you bitch about things that will eventually happen, thats just the way it is these days, regardless of what you believe.

Sorry, I had to try to put an end to the bitch fight.

[phnompenhkid]

Missleadfoot, right on girl. These 89ers are a pathetic bunch.

Al, it wasn't a pilot who said that he had to come here or lose his house. Try again.

Whoever it was asked for the photos, give me a week, and I should be able to mail you a few. It's a nice paintjob, and draws a lot of comments in this part of the world.

As for the title $cab, Al E Vator, you may have missed the point. I wear it proudly just as the w0gs of 30 years ago do today. Sorry, it's not derogatory to me, but rather a badge of common sense.

Perhaps you whould talk with Kaptin M who applied early and was rejected, and then became a tireless gladiator for the lost cause.

[mainwheel]

Thanks for the offer. Have you any photo's (digital) of your exploits in the town of one-legged-beggars??.

[Kaptin M]

Good to see some of the old RAC cabin crew back at work again - you're right Betelgeuse, Nakry (like the rest of the ladies there) still looks stunning. Just a shame they have to fly with the dregs of aviation, rather than their own Khmer pilots.

[Dexter]

I seen the oter story on this on the oter forim an now i am realy intrested to take the job with Mekong when i see the foto an here what the phompenkid has go too say. seams like an easy job an a cheep place too live too, only 5 dollar for all you can eat an drink woo hoo. an the girls looks beutifull in the picture.

an so hear s my deal. if i can i will come an work for Mekong for 3,000 american dollar. my experience on 737 3/4/500 is totel time 6,000 hours an 4,000 is command time on 737. can u plse post the mane of the 3 owners an a adress in camboda to send me aplicaton too. thanx in advants.
Dexter.

[Dogbreath]

You almost got me there.:D

[phnompenhkid]

Kaptin M, You missed it again. Nakry and the girls flew with the dregs of aviation many years ago. Now they're flying with guys who won the Victoria Cross equivalent for common sense!!

You won the Victoria Cross equivalent for stupidity.

You guys were the ones who treated them so badly because you were bitter and twisted that one of the FAs told me your lot treated them 'like poor people'.

There are three local pilots now checked out. I'm sure there will be more in time.

Loose Connection, perhaps your handle should be 'Loose Brain!'

Mainwheel, the town of one legged beggars?? Leaning toward poor taste. As for photos of exploits, and I'm not sure what you mean, no, just a few aircraft photos.

[Arctaurus]

Just curious Kap,

"Perhaps you should talk with Kaptin M who applied early and was rejected...."

Is this true ?

:confused:

[AN LAME]

How about a photo with the engineers/

Good to see Joe, Mark and Brian(still?) doing OK.

Cheers fellas

[Kaptin M]

Arctaurus, no it is not true.
I have challenged the kid to present evidence that will stand up in a court of law to support his UNTRUTHFUL, slanderous accusation. Click here to read it:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76071&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Additionally I have called him a LIAR in respect to this accusation, which now leaves ME open to legal action by him, but which of course he cannot take, as his accusation(s) are LIES.

He is one of those scabs that fits the definition to a tee - apparently however, from his previous comments, he enjoys the SCAB title.

Hey Dexter nice post - scabbing on a scab!!
You ARE going to send/post here the details that Dexter has asked of you, aren't you kid??!! :ok:

Nakry and the girls flew with the dregs of aviation many years ago.
Sorry kid, I got that one in ahead of you - AGAIN. There's no prize for runner-up - a position you have been holding for some 14 years now.
Seems as though you guys are going to continue to have to get used to playing second fiddle to US for the rest of your miserable lives. :{

[Ralph the Bong]

...hmm...what's in the fridge...

[Alistair]

Now they're flying with guys who won the Victoria Cross equivalent for common sense!! You won the Victoria Cross equivalent for stupidity

Don't normally comment on this kind of topic, though I have read a lot of it, however.. phnompenhkid I don't think it is an appropriate comparison for either side of this particular incidents participants as having a VC equivalent of anything. Particularly when the blokes who were awarded the VC usually obtained it by giving their lives for the blokes they were serving with. A rather ironic comparison given the subject matter and just a little bit disrespectful towards the VC holders. The VC still means a lot to a lot of people and is not something to be taken lightly.

[mo_gravy]

glad mon kapitano emm explained WHO it is thats MISERABLE around here. i knew it wasnt me since in 89 i was too busy trying to orchestrate smoking my first cheroot with a female of the opposite sax.

but i was confused by these old f@rts that just wont stop.
bit like the rabbit with the duracells™ that wont quit.
they just keep at that bone boring the new gen of smart new drivers senseless.
bit like the old f@rts at the rat they wont quit either. or move on...

but dont get me wrong i do support KM and the rest being of a greedy nature myself. i do tend to show a preference for max ca$h/min effort which is why i became a profe$$ional pilate. thats right punters why just the other day i demonstrated my skills yet again by logging more hours with my eyes shut :zzz: than open :sad:

hey whos miserable up there in nambodia anyway? anybody? Bueller? km says youre miserable is this true?

tell you what the scab issue's DEAD. like zed and chemical ali. no one cares anymore.
the new issue's who's miserable? and who's hanging on too tight, gonna turn in his wings... like that soft-on at the start of top gun who flew like an Iracki fighter jock anyway. served him right putting pics of his kid on the panel like that. the old f@rts i fly with would straighten him out on THAT airmanship issue by golly by gosh.

dunno about the VC and Bar but I do know guys who come back from service in bangkok with the VD and Scar. Nasty business.... :ooh:

as you were

gravy™

[Kaptin M]

hey mo...bro...you bin holdin' THIS handle quite a while now. Not like the first 2 or 3, that got you booted pretty fast.
Bit like ole phnompenhkid - alias Captain Schlonger, alias Kaptin_X.
For a guy who professes to be a qualified shrink (with a private business in SYD), you'd really expect a little better from him, if you were one of his patients.........guess that's why he's been relegated to the "Third World" (his terminology to describe the inhabitants there, not mine), as a pilot of a 1 aircraft "airline"!! :O

Talking about cutting your own knees out from under yourself, good ol' ppkid is doing a pretty good job of that, all by himself, isn't he!!

The other ex-AN pilots who are up in PP must have felt that they were on a pretty good wicket - until ppkid told all and sundry that the job's a piece of p!ss, the food and booze is cheap, and the ladies pretty.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!!

The Dexters of the world - and I guess their numbers are about to increase dramatically, due to the GW2 and SARS - are now looking at MEKONG AIRLINES as a suitable venue to spend some R&R (by the Tonle Sap) and get paid - even if it IS only USD3,000 per month - for the pleasure.

On ya phnompenhkid!! :ok:

Betcha the other ex-AN guys on the B737 in Phnom Penh, with Mekong Airlines are REALLY thanking you for your "enlightening" posts on PPRuNe. :p

[mo_gravy]

yep....... i got smart and got my head down. bit like the iraqis when the big stuff started raining down

shame. lid and bacon had a lot of character... and important things to say.

gravy™

[phnompenhkid]

KM, As always, most of your dribble is not worth commenting on, but one item is.

Just a short while ago, you were accusing us of being paid US$8500 a month, which was way too much in your eyes. Now it's only US$3000 per month. Get it right son!

As for the job being a piece of pi$$. All flying is. Anybody who says otherwise is having a lend of himself. Of course, if you're not up to speed, then it could be difficult. And saying that the beer is sweet and the ladies pretty is hardly shooting yourself in the foot. I think you make have used the wrong expression there.

The issue of identities - you have some wrong. I'll say no more than that, but some are incorrect.

There was a time when CX, QF, and no doubt numerous others, were one aircraft airlines. I'm not suggesting that Mekong will ever be a huge airline, rather a niche operator, but just because it only has one aircraft doesn't exclude it as an airline. No doubt you work for a much larger organization where pilots are paid much more, but we can't all have that. These days there is much more in my life than $$. I made enough of those at your expense over the past 14 years as you keep telling me.

Alistar, it was a light hearted comparison and with the EQUIVALENT of the VC, not a VC. If you follow these posts, you will note that I condemned the 89ers for comparing themselves with WWII diggers and holocaust survivors, so I'm not about to fall into that line of stupidity myself.

Incidentally, the three local pilots here tell me that they quiclkly tired of your constant reference to the events of 89, and even after they told you they weren't interested, had nothing to do with it, nor wanted to. Now that's really something coming from a Khmer.

As for Dexter's posts, they're about as articulate as yours, so I thought you and Dexter may have been one and the same, so didn't bother.

Arctaurus, he didn't answer your request. He did aply, and has admitted so in a previous post; the ony itemin contention is whether he was rejected or otherwise. That information is now not available because of the non-existence of Ansett.

[oicur12]

Last week i met two of th ex ansett drivers with mekong on turnaround in PNH.

PNHkid may be one of them.

Good luck guys. Good to see AN guys still getting work.

[Kaptin M]

Are you REALLY as thick as you come across in your posts, phnompenhkid?
It was Dexter who indicated that HE would be willing (and wished to apply for) your job with Mekong Airlines for USD3,000 remuneration.
It was you, or Angkorwot (or similar handle) who boasted that you were receiving USD8,500 tax free!
Get it right son!

A "light hearted comparison and with the EQUIVALENT of the VC". I wasn't aware that Hawke's government awarded any of the scabs a medal, kid - the 30 pieces of silver paid by The Fat Man was about the closest you came, and I'm certain that soldiers awarded the Victoria Cross for bravery in battle, would tear strips off you for suggesting that scabs in an industrial dispute - those that slunk away from Hawke's declared "war" ("Go out this time boys, and it's war") - were given ANYTHING "the EQUIVALENT of the VC".


And so we come to yet ANOTHER of the kid's distortions of the truth, and subsequent LIE, when we read his last sentence,
Arctaurus, he didn't answer your request.

One only need re-read, Arctaurus' question, which was,
"Just curious Kap,

"Perhaps you should talk with Kaptin M who applied early and was rejected...."

Is this true ?"

To which my reply was,"Arctaurus, no it is not true."

It IS true that I re-applied, and withdrew my application (in the presence of the then AFAP Brisbane Branch Chairman) within 3 days of the application being submitted.

The allegation made by phnompenhkid - and one for which he states he has "solid proof" - is a LIE.
I have challenged him to present this "solid proof" in the format of a Statutory Declaration with himself as deponent, or ANYONE of his choosing.
As a Stat Dec is a legal document that carries severe penalties for untruthful statements, phnompenhkid is now attempting to squirm his way out of backing up his drivel (note the spelling, kid...and quite an appropriate choice too, drivel - Run at mouth or nose like child; talk childishly or idiotically. Your user name is ENTIRELY apt, phnompenhkid! ;)

You have made what I consider a defamatory allegation, ppkid, so now present your "solid proof", or make a retraction!

[prospector]

Kaptin M.
The Vitriol in your posts gets very tiresome. The suggestion of T.C.o.B. in the SIA tailstrike thread, you should take to heart. "Those pilots unwilling to take responsibility for their actions, should aggressively seek other employment". Read actions as to mean in or out of the cockpit.

Prospector

[blat]

...backing up his drivel (note the spelling, kid...and quite an appropriate choice too, drivel - Run at mouth or nose like child; talk childishly or idiotically. Your user name is ENTIRELY apt, phnompenhkid...
Hahahahahaaaa..... hilarious! One childish imbecile accusing someone else of being exactly what he, himself, has cornered the market on. I don't think there's room for TWO K.M.s around here.

(Still laughing to myself here...)

[phnompenhkid]

I'm afraid the term 'dribble' was intentional.

KM, I have never indicated, let alone boasted, that I waspaid US$8500 with Mekong. Not once. You made that accusation, but I never acknowledged it. If I was though, it wouldn't be excessive, because RAC paid US10K to Malaysian for a Captain, and I believe over 7 was paid as salary, and that was some time ago.

Perhaps I didn't understand Dexter's post, because after the first line, I ceased reading. That style of writing can be amusing, but not for long. I had read the previous one and resolved not to do so again.

Prospector, you got him.

I reckon if KM was Mike Tyson, his trainer would never let him come out for the next round. Every time, someone hits him on the chin, sits him on his ar$e, and yet he keeps coming back. There has to be a limit to the number of times he's prepared to be publicly humiliated.

Arctaurus, he's made the admission, so you've nailed him too. No such thing as half pregnant, indeed!!! An appropriate response would have been, 'it's partly true,' but he denied it in toto. No coercion or intimidation though. He knows well, as I articulated above, that the evidence is now long lost after the collapse of Ansett. I'm not in a position to apologize or withdraw purely because the evidence is not available, so I'll have to live with the threat of legal action because I slandered or defamed a nom de plume on the net. I am fearful that the process server will knock on my door in Phnom Penh with a slip of paper in his hand calling for my lynching. Such is life. Another cold Angkor lager, and a laugh with the boys coming on I feel.

oicur12, I may well have been one of them, and thanks for the good wishes. It is indeed a malicious, vindictive mind that would wish otherwise for former colleagues, be they from 2 years ago, or 14 years ago. I wish all the 89ers well.

KM, I need to know how we guys, whoever we guys may be, will play second fiddle to you guys. This seems to me to be a statement that meet all qualifications for the title 'epitome of stupidity', but I'm becoming well acccustomed to that type of discussion from you.

I can see Woomera swooping and closing this thread on the grounds that 'it is going nowhere' and it isn't.

[Arctaurus]

Kap,

Despite some of the inflammatory comments thus far, I would be interested in your reasoned response as to why you reapplied to go back to work in the first place.

Your admission just seems so contrary to the content of numerous posts you have made on this subject.

[amos2]

Well, what a pity, just as this is getting interesting the kid throws in the towell and wants Woomera to bail him out!

Why am I not surprised? ;)

[LooseConnection]

PPK seems you are the one with the "Loose Brain", gloating about the fact that some locals have just checked out.
As an Expat DON'T you realise that when the locals get up to full speed (which they will)

You and your Scab lot will be out of there so fast you won't have time to pack your $1 knapsack.

Anyway SARS is going to do that for you.

:D :D :D

(Maybe there's an anagram in there re Scabs - I'm sure Kaptin M could come up with one) :E

[Sir Shiraz]

Maybe that should be several Loose Connections.......
;)

[mainwheel]

This thread was started with a publication about some unemployed ex ansett guys gaining employment overseas.
3rd world country's can be a joy and pain to live in.
By Looseys comments it's obvious he's still having mummy make his brekky!!!
Tell me one country in the world that dosen't have a localization program.
Try expat life sometime.You may come out of the umbrella.
Good luck to ya PPK.

[Flyspray]

What an insult refering to VC's
In a real War deserters who jumped out of the trenches in the middle of the night were shot.

[phnompenhkid]

Thanks Mainwheel.

I'm not looking for Woomera to bail me out Amos. I merely said that he will close this thread because 'it is going nowhere' as he has done on numerous previous occasions.

Gloating that locals have checked out??? No gloating here. I'm happy they have, and they seem slike good guys. Two have previously held 737 200 commands, so I'm sure they're good pilots as well.

You're right Flyspray. Those who jumped out of the ttenches did indeed get shot - by the enemy!!

Arctaurus, you won't ever get a reasoned response from KM. He's incapable of reasoning. Abuse, yes; petty name calling, yes; but reasoned response, NO.

[Flyspray]

OK phnompenhkid, I will rephrase it for you and say those that abandoned the trenches were shot for desertion as you well know. In this case the enemy paid ransom money.

[Kaptin M]

phnompenhkid, back up your allegations with some FACT.

Subconciously he has admitted that he is lying with his statement

so I'll have to live with the threat of legal action because I slandered or defamed a nom de plume on the net.

Produce some factual evidence to back up your b.s. and substantiate your allegations.

You are the epitome of all that a SCAB represents, kid.

[Ralph the Bong]

Mekong with Aussie managers? I can see a model based on VN where expats are a permenant fixture....

[phnompenhkid]

Now KM knows what I'm THINKING!! I'm becoming more concerned by the minute.

Thank you once again for your kind, well reasoned comments.

[The Enema Bandit]

Well I think it's about time we had the first PPRUNE boxing match. We have a good couple of contenders here. It'll be good to see a bit of punching around the ring.

[Dogslay]

Having read the garbage going on between PPK and KM I thought I would add my sixpence worth.
I have flown with both pre 89's and post 89's and have to honestly say I would choose a post 89er anyday. They definately seem a lot more balanced.

[one ball]

I know exactly you mean...



L2, you've been quiet lately.




________________________________________________
In the land of the gelding the one-balled man is king...

[Sid Departure]

Dogslay, the post 89'er you have flown with may well be a nice balanced person, but out of the two, who would you honestly trust to stand by you when the going gets tough and you find yourself involved in an industrial dispute?
The aviation industry is a small world as many of the "hero's" are now discovering. Just because someone refuses to forget the actions of individuals that had a significant effect on their lives 14 years ago, does not make them bitter and twisted as PPK would like us to believe. It simply acts as a warning to the pilot's of today that this profession has a small percentage of individuals who will have no hesitation or remorse at advancing themselves at the expence of you and more importantly the hard fought conditions that this industry is rapidly loosing.

[killersheep]

Kaptin M, please refrain from your one-sided, unrealistic opinions and let sleeping dogs lie. ANY AN staff who find a job should be wished well, all the past should be left there and it now time to move on. As a moderator on occassion, you should use your postion more wisely, and as such your recent posts have been passed on to the apropriate people to deal with. Let those of us who did work for AN be proud for the company we did work for and let us get on with life as most of us are at least trying to do.
Your comments are not warranted or welcome! Keep your opinions to yourself and only report and discuss the facts, as this forum is designed for.

[amos2]

Well Sheep, as you are obviously a novice in these matters perhaps it is up to me to tell you that you are a complete and utter twit!!

Oh! and what was that about working for Ansett!...can you match 25 yrs?...I thought not!...What an idiot you are!!!

[Eastwest Loco]

Oh for Heavens sake guys

How many times must we travel the '89 road. What is done is done.

Amos - there is a great deal of detail on both sides that is left out of the '89 "discussions" in here, and I will not go into thaht detail but it relates to deliberate pitting of mate against mate by Government and management on down.

A job as an operational pilot in a airline, in particular one as fine as Ansett at the time, East-West or Australian was indeed a hard won privelege and well earned right.So were the treasured jobs of us "groundies" who also walked over broken glass for our airlines.

We groundies have gotten over it. We just had to so as to live. The "89ers who left were and in many cases still are our mates. Those who returned are as well.

Maybe the rarified air has reduced thought patterns over the years but it is bloody OVER.

The groundies have had as rocky a path, and in many cases more so as many of the aircrew from that time and place our collective history, and I do not know one who holds a single grudge. Kap M - you and many others would also do well to take that on board.

The AFAP were victim to a vicious restructuring by the Fat Man and the Bodgey to try to prop up a failing airline - and too egotistical to believe it could happen to them. It has later been shown that TN were in the same dodgy state and only rescued by the QF assimilation.

To the guys flying out of Phnom Pen - I am please that airmen from both sides are making a go of it and I would personally be extremely excited to join a startup carrier once again.

Recognise the enemy - please.

It is NOT each other. It is just a simple fact that some recognised the spinning propellor and some didnt.

If you all had have stayed out, then there would have been a great deal more of the foreign accents on the Aussie airwaves because NOTHING was going to change the final outcome. Believe that. I was high enough in the EWA/AN system to know that for a very sad fact.

The thread is indeed going nowhere, but I wish Air Cambo clear skies and will be contacting management re Aus representation rights.

Clear on 2 PPK

Best all

Hey - we all love commercial aviation - let us bloody GET ON!!!!

EWL

[bonvol]

There's some interesting ironies in all this.

Back in the dispute days PK and his mates who scabbed on their fellow man never dreamt they would be the ones forced overseas as the unthinkable happened... Ansett goes kaput.

Fast forward to now and they are unemployable in Australia. Virgin wont touch 'em and Qantas has only taken a token amount.

Many 89'ers who thought they would never work in an Australian Airline again are back in force. Pretty easy to see who is in the box seat.

[knackeredII]

Just for interest, phnompenhkid is the one with 4 bars in the picture.

STILL waiting for that SQ position CitizenXX????

[fruitloop]

Changing the subject slightly, Why is the engine cowl open ??:confused: :confused:

[Kaptin M]

Was there ever any doubt about that, knackered?!!
"Just for interest, phnompenhkid is the (short) one with 4 bars in the picture."
The very same one who used his flight bag to lash out at another, during a temper tantrum in Sydney years ago.

Was discussing Captain Sclonger`s.....sorry, ppkid`s allegations with a couple of other ex-MAS pilots (one Aussie, and the other a Canadian) who had done the occasional stint with Air Cambodge. Allegations such as:
because RAC paid US10K to Malaysian for a Captain, and I believe over 7 was paid as salary, and: Incidentally, the three local pilots here tell me that they quiclkly tired of your constant reference to the events of 89, and even after they told you they weren't interested, had nothing to do with it, nor wanted to.
which made us laugh at the CRAP that ppkid is spewing out. I can GUARANTEE that NONE of us received anything like "US7K".

As for the "constant reference to the events of `89"...again another of your LIES, but you had us laughing at you as we envisaged YOUR conversations with the Khmers,
"What do you know about me?
What did the other Australians who worked here say?
I went back to save Ansett, and for my family!
And now I`m here to save YOU.
You`re SOooo lucky to have me here.

Funny, if you weren`t so pathetic, ppkid.

Anyway, I guess those Stat Decs or sworn statements, backing up your allegations for which you have "solid evidence" are forthcoming shortly.

Or do you prefer to remain standing a LIAR as charged.

And as Dexter`s request remains ignored, how about publishing the info here that he requested.

[phnompenhkid]

KM, the former RAC pilot 'with more international flying experinece that the rest of you put toegether' was the one responsible for the info on MAS fees/salaries. I merely passed it on.

As for identities, whoever thinks I am/have posted as a number of others has made a serious error. I'm not.

As for lashing out with a nav bag in a temper tantrum, where did that bull$hit come from? It seems that you guys are smoking something!! I suppose I should now demand a retraction and apology, or a stat dec, or legal action will commence. Isn't that what KM threatens?? All too hard for me.

You'll be disappointed to hear that the only things I have heard from the locals are that you 'treated them like poor people', and the above reference to salaries. Otherwise, you are never mentioned, and why would you be, insignificant as you are. We certainly don't mention you, favourably or otherwise.

bonvol, I was not forced overseas. I'm not a drama queen as some of you are. I chose to go, but just as easily could have stayed and done something else, or retired completely. Nobody forced me, just as nobody forced you. As for being in the box seat, who would want to be on a pathetic VB salary?? Maybe that should be the back seat!

Sid Departure, who would you choose? I know who you should choose, and it's someone who is capable of analysing the evidence before him and making a rational decision based on that information. If you had been in that position at that time, and were capable of rational thought, then you would have undoubtedly made the decision to return to the job you had prior to everybody resigning and leaving vacant many, many jobs.

After all, Kaptin M chose to do so, and then the waters get a little cloudy. He admits signing, thereby putting himself on 'the list' because according to Alex's definition, was 'in negotiations or signed' prior to a specific date. Alex is the one who has written the 'definitive history' as we all know.

EWL, good points. I just enjoy setting these guys up a little from time to time. As the yanks would say, it's 'like shooting fish in a barrel.' Go for the business EWL, and I wish you luck.

I think a good number of those who have been posting here, have caused this thread to degenerate into another petty name calling, silly monotone of their version of 89. That sort of thread does not require my presence.

[amos2]

Hmmm!...as usual, gone to water again! Why am I not surprised! ;)

[greybeard]

Gidday,

How many times does it have to be said,

Those who went back are $c8B$.
Those who did NOT go back are NOT $c8b$

As to the passing of time and the writing of history, many who thought they were safe in An$c8b have had the rug removed and are scrabbling around the world as others have done before.
Some influence may have been brought to bear as to who gets hired where, people are now just as entitled to that "right" as the $c8b$ were "right" in previous documentation.

SIA is "Terminating in accordance with the appropriate clause" already, some of them older 89ers, many more to go from unknown areas, possibly "Foriegn Bases" which will catch a few ex An$c8B people and many others.

All who take the step of going "overseas" run many risks, most will say they are "doing fine", most have dramas that reduce grown men to tears, wives to histerics and families are rarely the same ever again.
If, and really if you are half lucky, it will be a positive time, but there is NO sure bet on that.

The world will rotate at the same speed regardless of the decisions of any of us lower mortals. Making decisions is a personal choice, making MORAL ones was too hard for some in the past, their turn to now wander around in insecurity and foreign parts.

Character building stuff, hope they have the foundation to build on, have my doubts when you read the drivel and crap they still go on with justifying poor decisions to $c8b, no one will forget, no one will forgive what was done to them, EVER.

[Kaptin M]

"As for identities, whoever thinks I am/have posted as a number of others has made a serious error. I'm not.
Let`s not be shy, ppkid - YOU certainly aren`t when it comes to naming OTHERS. :O
However some of your "acquaintances" don`t share your same sense of "007-ness". Word travels pretty fast these days, as I found out...but so what? As long as one is willing to stand by what he says, then nom de plumes are a mere formality.
And one 1 count - and 1 only - you have been CONSISTENT, that of pronouncing your PRIDE in being a sc#b....as was Kaptin_X, CitizenXX, and Captain Schlonger.
As for lashing out with a nav bag in a temper tantrum, where did that bull$hit come from?
It came from the person who was on the receiving end!!:eek: I merely passed it on.;)

And speaking of Stat Decs, to back up your "solid evidence" - you ARE going to let us know that you WILL be standing by what YOU said....aren`t you!!

The only "solid evidence" that comes from YOU, is flushed into the Tonle Sap from the sewage system, ppkid.

I think a good number of those who have been posting here, have caused this thread to degenerate into another petty name calling, silly monotone of their version of 89.
Actually I haven`t seen much at all about 1989 per se - the thread was titled "Still flying after Ansett", featuring YOU and an F/O with the Ladies and Gentlemen of the former Royal Air Cambodge, and an opening narrative that indicated that Ross Martin suffers from SERIOUS SITUATIONAL UNAWARENESS.
It really HAS been fun hearing from you, ppkid, about Ross Martin, and the others.

Enjoy life up there, don`t forget to pay your taxes WHEREVER you are, and PM me when you have that Statutory Declaration.
I won`t be holding breath though, you`ll probably be too busy polishing that Victoria Cross!! :ooh:

[blat]

You guys really are losers......

[bonvol]

Well thats a bit rich from someone who lives in a Trailer Park.:D

[VR-HFX]

Keyborad time>pole time.

Neither of you are going to get your 900 hours at this rate.

But then we are all sitting on our backsides at the moment sucking wind.

Keep up the entertainment.

[oicur12]

was recently speaking to a "pre loved" who stated that "we are a bit embarrassed about CR" - kap m.

seems his views are not really representative of most 89ers.

give it up.

[mainwheel]

Fruity-Good observation on the engine cowl.
Most probably some guy behind the scenes doing his bit.Might be servicing the starter, I think it's on that side.
Good to see some ex AN guys getting work.

[Casper]

Well said, Greybeard. No one forgets - EVER. Some ex AN heroes are now finding out that fact in regard to their applications in Fragrant Harbour and Lyin' City.

[bulkhead]

Please correct me if wrong but isnt the four-barred individual in the photo off to fly 737's in Japan next week?

[phnompenhkid]

Amos, Not going to water, just bored with the petty dialogue. Simple.

KM - You're making a wild assmption, and that is that I am the prson in the centre of the picture, and I am not. You have corectly named him, but it is not I. It seems tha you have a penchant for not objectively analysing what is presented before you speak, or think.

Greybeard, and so are those who signed, even though they subsequently withdrew. Please refer to Alex's definitive history of the pilots' dispute, and lump KM in with the rest of those low down creeps.

Km as for pronouncing my pride in making a rational decision, there are many who do so, so by making the assumptiuon that anyone who does so is one and the same person is foolhardy. Please note: All dogs have tails - so does that mean that everything with a tail is a dog? Mmmm! more cock eyed logic.

oicur - I agree. Most are all embarrassed by KM's input, and it's such a shame because when he gets off the 89 bull$hit, he actually makes a reasonable contribution. It's when he runs off at the mouth that he loses credibility. Just a few days ago, a friend emailed me and said just that - he can make worthwhile input if he stays away from 89.

bulkhead, I have no knowledge of the individual leaving Mekong, but he may have given notice without broadcasting it.

[Sub-Sonic MB]

I moaned I wailed I cried, complained

For years ‘til the Feds in time disdained

To fix the problem and launch a claim

For a rise in pay for all in their name

But the going was tough and I failed

To stand strong with colleagues I hailed

So I deserted my mates to fall at the feet

Of a big fat man we all called Sir Pete!



Also known as the scabs' Eptitaph

[killersheep]

amos2 May not have been in the industry as long as you mate, to you I may be a novice. What ever has got up your tail pipe certainly has stopped you from looking at the BIGGER picture. Hope you get better soon mate, then maybe you could rejoin the rest of humanity!

[crocodile redundee]

The sooner everyone still in the aviation industry, no matter where in the world, realise that the industry as a whole is well & truly stuffed, & move on to a better life; the better.

[DIRK DIGGLER]

I'm DIRK DIGGLER, and I still say scabs are filth.

Especially you chickenpenkid.

Thank you and goodnight.

[7x7]

"I'm pround to be a scab, it doesn't matter what I did, I'm proud to be a scab, it doesn't matter what I did..."

Repeat - over and over and over again, and you might eventually convince yourself. But you'll never convince anyone else - except similarly-spotted leopards.

Ever.

It's like saying: "Saddam Hussein? Oh, yes, he did terrible thigs, but it was fourteen years ago, so let's forget it and put it all behind us." Simply doesn't cut it for those who were affected by what you 'sensible' people did.

[mainwheel]

PPK,
Seems like there are some gaps in this whole scenario. Maybe future ones!!

[Ramboflyer 1]

Youve got to feel sorry for the young captains from AN who are being treated as 89ers and were not even there most of these guys have had it harder than anybody and a few are still looking for work.
Dragonair is one who treats all captains as scabs no matter how hard they plead , it is a sad world when these people are branded of something that happened while they were in GA...

[bonvol]

Unfortunately a few of these young Captains were pretty well indoctrinated and contaminated by the unclean.

Whilst still in Ansett some have been known to shoot their mouths off about how stupid the 89'ers were. Now they are all tarred as scab sympathisers. 89'ers are in authority in many major airlines now and as one put it to me recently. "Why take a chance."

[phnompenhkid]

bonvol,

May I be so bold as to suggest that you edit your post, and substitute 'indoctrinate' with a more correct/suitable word. "Indoctrinate' in that context makes no sense at all - a litle like most posts by 89ers.

Perhaps you could use 'contaminate' - it's suitably offensive. An optional few f*&%$@&g $cabs would probably fit somewhere as well.

Ramboflyer, Doesn't it tell us something of the mentality of the 89ers who hold those positions of authority to which bonvol alludes? I would have thought so, and the assumption one would be compelled to make is that they are 'bottom feeders at the shallow end of the gene pool.' What a great expression that is, and one for which I am unable to claim credit, but credit for which I give to a post 89 pilot who is a most perceptive gentleman. He's also a good mate in spite of me being a $cab.

[bonvol]

You may have a point PKK. Just to cover more bases I've added rather than substituted.

[Kaptin M]

It is a shame, Ramboflyer, if these guys were not involved. But Life is not fair - well not in the way we are led to believe that it is, during our formative years, and unfortunately the likes of Abeles, Hawke & Co. nurtured the "greed is good" in Australian pilots.
The old moral codes are being rapidly worn away. Employees are merely a replaceable cog in a big wheel, and employers don't seem to care whether there is any "company loyalty" existing within their workforce. They pay a wage to get a certain job done - if they can get more, for the same salary, then all the better.
Experiences of two acquaintances of mine working in Oz, in non-aviation related work, have shown to them precisely how vulnerable, and exploitable non-union protected workers are.

I think you are a little harsh on your criticism of Dragonair, and need to bear in mind that you are now competing on a WORLD scale for jobs, when looking o/s, rather than against Aussies only.

As for our "friend", phnompenhscab's :
"Ramboflyer, Doesn't it tell us something of the mentality of the 89ers who hold those positions of authority to which bonvol alludes?"
substitute "89ers" for "AIPA and its scab members" (or "holders of the Victoria Cross for Scabbing" ala ppkid) - of which ppscab WAS one - in their 14 year role of blocking Dispute pilots from returning, some with as little as 9 months service at the time.]

Certainly they are in an unenviable position, Ramboflyer, as they probably have too LITTLE Command time to successfully nail a job as a Captain, but too MUCH (Command time) for employers looking for F/O's who won't be continually trying to override the Captain.
Unenviable but not impossible.

[Wizofoz]

But Life is not fair - well not in the way we are led to believe that it is, during our formative years, and unfortunately the likes of Abeles, Hawke & Co. nurtured the "greed is good" in Australian pilots.

So...Is that why you applied to return Kap?

[Kaptin M]

No, it wasn't.
How about you tho', Wiz - unacceptable pre-'89 :{ - suddenly "within limits" when Ansett couldn't get their own pilots to return! :ugh:

[phnompenhkid]

'Unacceptable' in a particular year or at a particular time does not mean 'not up to the required standard' Kaptin M. It means only that there were applicants 'of a higher standard at that time.'

The reason an applicant is not held on file once rejected for a particular intake is that the list would move on very slowly, and there are other considerations, e.g., a bracket of ages so that retirements can be scheduled in a timely manner.

I don't know Wizofoz, so I can't comment on whether he was up to the required standard or otherwise, but as I said above, it doesn not mean that he/she is below standard, merely not recruited, and that could be for a dozen or more different reasons.

Since you didn't offer to return, i.e., sign a contract prior to the AFAP giving the OK, for reasons of greed, then can we assume that you 'did it for your family', a reason of which you have been so critical when others expressed it in the past.

That dangerous trend is emerging again. We actually agree on something, and that is that company managers don't look for or require company loyalty. It's all bottom line. Good man!!

Your post went downhill from there though when you once again degenerated into the petty name calling, and perpetrating untruths. I don't recall preventing dispute pilots returning, or even voicing an opinion, on whether they should be permitted to do so. I don't know any pilot who did so. I recall that has been attributed to the chairman of the pilots' association at the time, but I can't be sur eof that either since I've only read it in these forums.

[EPIRB]

If my memory serves me correctly, that's Dirk Diggler in the photo at the start of this thread.

[The Enema Bandit]

Now if my memory serves me correctly, I thought Woomera said that degenerating into '89 was verbotim. It's been an entertaining read butt.

[Wizofoz]

OK, make that SEVEN wrong assumptions Kap M has made about me.I was accepted into Ansett the one and only time I applied.

Doesn't want to answer the question as to why he re-applied, though, does he!

[Woomera]

Bandit

Now if my memory serves me correctly, I thought Woomera said that degenerating into '89 was verbotim. It's been an entertaining read butt.

Is about the only reason I haven' locked it, so far every one has been behaved as far as it is possible with this subject, besides it keeps em of the streets and in in one place where I can see em :rolleyes:

[Eastwest Loco]

Good call Woomera

Shame we cant transmit computer valium to the masses.

If this vitriol between ex mates flowed into every nook and cranny drastically affected by "89, there would be Civil War in our streets.

The angst and hatred has me totally bemused.

EWL :sad: :sad:

[Kaptin M]

Wizofoz, "I was accepted into Ansett the one and only time I applied."
SURE you were, Wiz - you'd been waiting for JUST the right moment :rolleyes:
When Ansett was DESPERATE, and had to resort to IMPORTING foreign scab labour, because they had exhausted the supply of everyone in Oz who had less than the previous required minimum experience.
It was common knowledge that previous applicants who had been REJECTED (in one case 3 times), were suddenly acceptable for the "New Ansett".

Doesn't want to answer the question as to why he re-applied, though, does he!
I don't feel any compulsion - or even desire - to discuss the topic of PRINCIPLES with scabs such as yourself, Wiz.
YOU obviously had no misgivings in stealing another man's job in a company in which you had NEVER before been involved.
I could have said that I was only "taking my own job back", but I realised that trying to justify the act of scabbing using that reasoning was bs.
Each and every person who took a job during the Dispute period, effectively prevented at least one, and more realistically two pilots, from returning to the job that they had LEGITIMATELY obtained.
Not ONE scab, can make the claim that he/she obtained their position LEGITIMATELY.
And THAT was WHY I withdrew my application.

You, Wiz, and the rest of the sc@bs were only employed by DEFAULT.

As phnompenhkid correctly states,, it doesn not mean that he/she is below standard, merely not recruited, and that could be for a dozen or more different reasons.
In other words, the second and third grade previous rejects HAD to be pulled in, to make Hawke's strategy a success, and as there were not sufficient of those, the Immigration Laws were altered.

Undoubtedly there WOULD have been enough QUALIFIED pilots in Australia to fill the positions of the '89'ers, however the vast majority of those were PRINCIPLED enough to abstain because of the MORAL issues involved.
During the dispute, I personally knew one pilot who had bags of jet experience and who would have been snapped up, had he applied.
Through the auspices of PPRuNe, I have met another (who often frequents here) similarly qualified, principled gentleman who likewise REFRAINED from STEALING another's job.
You, Wiz, were NOT one of those gentlemen or ladies, so why would you expect us to believe your word NOW?

For all we know, it may WELL have been you, Wiz, who was the "Triple Reject Defect", who finally scored a slot the EASY WAY - through the BACK DOOR!!

[Eastwest Loco]

Kaptin M

My final word (maybe) on this topic is one must look at the times and situation surrounding the '89 disaster that touched us all.

Ansett was quietly bleeding to death after being asset stripped by the Fat Man and his cronies. Australian was bleeding badly as every good year meant the Government would rip most of the profits out of it, and in general salaries were too high right across both airlines.

Union pressure - sponsored by the Silver Bodgie in the ACTU days had seen unrealistic conditions and pay scales from Captain right down to bag snatcher. The industry was Edward the Kangaroo. Roo-ted.

I myself enjoyed those unrealistic pay scales working shift with TN and EW. EW was a standout, because we had managed to retain lean enough manning levels to be viable and the staff covered 2-3 ground positions each compared to the big boys. Mind you that was with a great deal of Sabre rattling between us and the Unions.

The restructure had to come, however the sleazy one decided to shut the country down and point the blame at the AFAP as it was cheaper to ground totally than to keep operating at the loss levels being incurred. Full backing from the Bodgie with the promise of passenger aeroplanes from the RAAF and Navy squadons would and did fill a small part of the hole in total shutdown.

Make no mistake, if not one pilot had come back not one thing would have changed. It was all engineered to the n'th degree and if noone had come back, the slots would have been filled by overseas pilots, as many were under altered immigration law, or by guys coming up from GA.

The RAAF and Navy filling the gap, along with Monarch, Royal Brunei, JAT and God knows who else.

If the guys that went back had not have done so, not one tiny thing would have altered. The restructure was under way. It was needed, but need not have been done so surepticiosly or in such a devestating fashion.

Kap - If you had have gone back yourself, and I respect your decision not to, or if everyone had stayed out - same result.

Some people vote Liberal - some vote labor. There is no difference.

The problem in this ongoing dilemma is NOT each other. It is the forced that pitted you against each other. They deserve every bit of hate and condemnation that you can muster. 89'ers - please have a good hard look at yourselves and ask the question - is there the slightest possibility I may have been conned and made the wrong call?

There is absolutely no shame in that at all. It is just the way things are and sometimes they are way beyond us, no matter how in control of our destiny we perceive ourselves to be.

Please redirect the anger where it is due.

I had a nervous meltdown over the loss of my loved East West Airlines, and not many know that. It snuck up on me at AN ADL and has changed me for ever. All this was precipitated by the "buy out by stealth" by Abeles and I honestly thought I was dying of some strange disease. I still hate the guts of those who engineered it, but certainly not the ex Ansett staff, many of whom are mates.

It took a bit to let that bit of info out, but I just want this fighting between my friends OVER!!!!!!!

Please lay your cards on the table, accept each other and be mates again.

The system conspires against us too much already to allow a 14 year old parting of the ways to ruin our lives.

You are ALL the best of the best.

EWL

[gaunty]

Eastwest Loco

I found something the other day which moved me and I used in another Thread (AOPA elections) which is apt.

Lincoln's First Inaugural Address
March 4, 1861


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am loathe to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've said it before and I'll say it again "the REAL villains" were not your compadres, they were a corrupt PM who was prepared to suborn the Constitution and any thing else he needed to do curry favour with his fat mate.

Lincoln was talking about his fellow countrymen NOT about those who came from 'outside' to prosper at their expense.

EWL mate, it is a simple fact that he/they would never have made it, had the laws of the country been upheld.

Who did or didn't go back is only interesting, they were ALL victims of treachery unsurpassed in the history of this country.

"Stay outs" or "returnees" both, should be united in their loathing of the slime that forced them to make decisions for or against, that no person in a civilised country whose rock solid foundation is based on the separation of powers and the rule of law, should have to make.

[prospector]

Eastwest Loco

Many thanks for that post, gives a very good re'sume' of the happenings of those times from somebody right at the coalface,and lays the blame where it should be laid.

Prospector

[Wizofoz]

EWL and Gaunty,

Wise words from people in a position to have a clear perspective. Gauntys words strike a particular chord. I don't think any pilot who returned or started with the domestic airlines during the dispute did so with emnity towards those that stayed out. As one guy put it to me, "Maybe if everyone had stayed out it might have been different, but I didn't get to decide if EVERYONE stayed out, only if I did." No one disputes the whole episode was a tragedy. The choice became in which manner you wanted to be a victim. Loose your career or lose a lot of freinds. It was a hugely difficult time and people did the best they could.

By the way Kap, nine errors and counting. Nope, my selection for AN was made completely outside the relevant period. And for someone so well versed in what everyone elses motivations were, it is interesting that yours are such a state secret. Also interesting that you draw your line between heroism and villany JUST beside were you stand ( I APPLIED, but because I bottled out, I'm actually ok and can stand here and yell at all the people who did the same as me, only didn't get cold feet.). I would have thought if there was the slightest grey area, you would be right in the middle.

Have you ever tried to consider that your anger might have something to do with your own feelings of guilt or despair, and about things external to the dispute?

[Kaptin M]

Thank you, EWL, for your post, consistent in many areas with the sentiments of probably most involved in what James Strong, at the time, described as a "watershed" in the Australian Airline system.
He was correct - whether he conjured that term up, or whether it was Hawke, Harris, Abeles, Kelty, or Murdoch - during one of the "war cabinet" meetings held - is not really relevant. It WAS a watershed.
Hawke's precious Accord had been challenged (by the AFAP), and I believe that THAT was more likely the reason for the "attack" on the pilots than any pressing need to re-structure the airlines. Re-structuring could have been achieved more cost effectively, by leaving the airlines operational rather than shutting down completely.
ANY company that is completely shut down for a month or more is extremely unlikely to be able to survive financially, and the use of chartered aircraft to operate ALL services, is NOT a cost effective method of maintaining economic viability - it is simply a facade...a face saver that enabled the airlines to book flights under THEIR names, so that things appeared to be heading back to normality, as were the "Dummy flights".
That NONE of the 4 airlines involved in Hawke's egotisitical folly survived, is surely testament to that.

Unfortunately Ron, East-West was one of the early "sacrificial lambs" that Abeles-Murdoch were forced to slay, in order to soothe Hawke's ego. Whether its demise had been acceptable, I would sincerely doubt.
My guess is that Hawke had probably figured (and told Abeles-Murdoch) on being able to direct far more of the Government's money to the airlines, than he was in fact able to achieve.

The love that almost every Ansett employee held, was for the Company, and the pilots were not unaware of what Abeles & Murdoch (through McMahon's clumsy handling) were doing in slowly pulling apart what was a GREAT Australian Company. The greatest depth of feeling that burned far stronger and harder than in all of us "junior" boys and both girls, was that of the the older pilots - those who had been with Ansett for 25 and 30+ years in 1989. These men had been not only employees of the Company, they also considered themselves "trustees" of a legacy that had been handed to them by their forbearers, and who would in turn hand this "culture" on to the next generation.
Hawke, Abeles and Co. broke that chain - that structured model that had existed since Ansett's inception - when the scabs were inducted.
Ansett had been a "family" - and to try to forcibly replace a member of that family with an outsider, was the beginning of what was seen as an attack to destroy a structure that thousands of men had given a lifetime to build, and when forcibly removed from the companies, it was the AFAP that was the common, remaining, uniting entity.

Perhaps you are right, EWL, when you say, "Make no mistake, if not one pilot had come back not one thing would have changed."...perhaps. However that was NOT the feeling by the majority at the time, and it was our fellow Australians who allowed the companies that small crack, that was - through the use of imported foreign labour - able to be levered further open to permit the trickle back to continue.

As Wizofoz says, "As one guy put it to me, "Maybe if everyone had stayed out it might have been different, but I didn't get to decide if EVERYONE stayed out, only if I did."" And that issue was put succinctly by Brian McCarthy at the time, when he said something along the lines of, "When you go swimming in a pool, each of us carries the responsibility to ensure that individually we don't p!ss in it. As long as EACH of us worries about only HIS responsibility, then as a group none of us need worry!"

And so back to the subject, and an issue raised by Ramboflyer earlier on wrt the difficulty some of the ex-AN pilots are having in finding employment. As mentioned in my previous post, I was friends with a pilot pre-Dispute - let's call him Bill - who had significant (small) jet experience, that well and truly qualified him for a job with TAA, Ansett, or Eenie-Weenies. As luck (or otherwise) would have it, Bill had been flying in PNG and had moved his family to Oz in the early part of 1989, with the intention of hopefully getting into airlines. During the dispute he avoided contacting the companies, despite the fact that one of his peers did apply, and was immediately accepted into East-West on the F28. (As an aside, I met this person at a BBQ at Bill's, and his reason for taking a job was, "It doesn't matter to me who wins - if the previous pilots come back at least I've got an F28 rating, and I'll find work overseas.").
Come the "end" of the dispute, and Bill contacted Ansett for an interview. At the interview, he was asked, "Why didn't you apply to us in 1989 when we were looking for pilots?"
Bill replied, "I didn't want to get dragged into something in which I was not involved."
Bill NEVER heard from Ansett again!!
Kinda says something, doesn't it, about those who quickly secured positions immediately after the cutoff date! Remember, RF, that almost all of the information the Feds received about who "went back" and new recruits' names, came from WITHIN the company, from people who didn't like what was going on.
Here endeth the epistle.

[greybeard]

Gidday,

Well after all this time and vitriol, some forgotten good points in the debate.

Hawke, Ables, et all broke the laws of Australia in respect to Immigration, Constitution, ATPL standards and many other bits along the way.

What they were doing was WRONG in law and the so called spirit of Aussiness in every way.

The TWU refueled Aircraft crewed by $c8B labour
The Loaders loaded them
The Cabin crew flew with them
CASA licenced them
The IRC acted under direction to cancell awards
People flew in their Aircraft.

There were too many people PISSING IN THE POOL.

All of the above could look us in the eye, tell us how sorry they were, actually encourage us to remain STONG, and in some cases actually have a contract already signed in their Bloody pocket.
All this while the pool water turned green around us!!!!!

It doesn't matter when you went back, when you joined, all helped to allow the situation to develop to the current state of the Airline Industry in Australia.

I HOPE YOU ARE A PROUD LOT, YOU SURE DID WELL IN STUFFING UP AUSTRALIA.

The "DOCUMENT ON SAFETY" effectively prevented anyone , except the so called Dozen, getting re employed so the johnny come lately's were just as culpable in the pool.

Dear BILL, a failed $c8b.

Friend from PNG, opportunist looking only looking for an endorsement, and so stuff the rest of us.

No one who went back did it for any other reason but PERSONAL GAIN for positions, money, endorsements and demonstrated their true colours.

C YA, I'm out of this active flying bit shortly, will miss the view, will pick carefully which non $c8b crewed/operated Aircraft I fly on or with as the choice will be mine.

:ok:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

KM:

.....Each and every person who took a job during the Dispute period, effectively prevented at least one, and more realistically two pilots, from returning to the job that they had LEGITIMATELY obtained......

I often read these posts with amusment as I was a junior in GA at the time with but a handful of hours.

That did not stop a so called 'HERO' from undercutting my meagre wage and take MY Instructing job.

Does THAT make these HEROS, SCABS as well???.

BTW; I was by far not the only one to lose a job to a so-called 'Hero'.

I, like others have long since got over ancient history.

I'm not saying YOU did this, nor will I 'prove' anything or name names or places........

You and other poor tormented souls - Please do the same, get on with life. It's too short to be obsessed & bitter.

Best wishes this Easter to all. Fly Safe.

[Eastwest Loco]

A very reasoned reply Kaptin M, as I would expect from a gentleman like yourself.

Gaunty and prospector, thank you also.

Kap, I was high enough in the mess to know (after the plan was dropped into the real world) that pitting mate against mate was the plan to take the heat off the Airlines themselves. They HAD to restructure, and you an I and half of the tourist industry in Australia bore the brunt of their previous excesses. The dude with the bow tie is no better than the Fat Man in this context either, as

Unfortuanately, it worked and the ripples are still very apparent many years on. The AFAP had not a snowballs chance in hell as it was all set in place. East West was never a sacrificial lamb at any stage Kap - we were Edward the Kangaroo (Roo-Ted) from the second we were bought. The only reason to buy us was to shut us down as we were viable and growing - that is why Hawke delayed the open skies policy at the behest of his mate the fat man (the bloke that bought the Porsche for his daughter.)

What I have been ranting about for many years is that great mates - wontoks - are still at each others throats and that is simply not right. I said before that you are all the best of the best and were tripped up and set against each other in the alternative to total airline meltdown on both sides.

Legitimacy of a job is a moot point too RFG - If some Aussies didnt go back to work then all the slots would have been filled from overseas, and that is something not one of us would or could have sanctioned.

I will not ever deny that I had tears streaming down my face when I marshalled EWB in at DPO on the first flight back into DPO after the dispute, and managed to put her right on the dot. Good Skipper over good marshalling as I had trouble seeing.

This is hopefully the ugliest time we will ever see in our Travel careers, and even though I am now running my own business, and staggering on, I would give anything to go back to pre '89 when Airlines drew loyalty and were families.

Call me sentimental, but we have lost far more in this restructure of '89 than seniority, jobs, condiions. We have lost mates.

Please - all do me one little favour.

Please seek out a former great mate who went the other way - both sides. track them down. Just give them a call and say Hi!! Just bloody do it!! You make the first move, then we are on the way to rebuilding a lost culture and your life will be better with a former wontok back in it.

You guys are far too professional not too.

All my best wishes for a peaceful and fulfilling Easter.

EWL

Ron Knight

[amos2]

Interesting sentiments...
thanks, but no thanks!;)

[greybeard]

EWL,
you said,

"Legitimacy of a job is a moot point too RFG - If some Aussies didnt go back to work then all the slots would have been filled from overseas, and that is something not one of us would or could have sanctioned."

So would things have been different if no pilot had gone back? Probably not, but their honour would not be in doubt.
That's where it sticks in my throat I'm afraid, they didn't go back to support Australian Aviation, they went back for personal greed and gain.

You also said,

"I will not ever deny that I had tears streaming down my face when I marshalled EWB in at DPO on the first flight back into DPO after the dispute, and managed to put her right on the dot. Good Skipper over good marshalling as I had trouble seeing."

Many of us shed tears then and now for the way things turned out. I cannot forget or forgive those who behaved as in my post above.
We all make decisions for many reasons, you chose to continue with EWA, I chose to not return, we live with that choice.
Good friends still worked in WA until the end of the silliness, and are now out of work at the 50/60 years mark, lot of good being loyal to the employer it did them.

Have a good easter.


:ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

amos - I will not agree with, but respect your decision.

Greybeard - I can indeed see where you are coming from and understand the hurt. I belive the jobs that were lost during the dispute and subsequently would have been lost anyway.

We were all on a beating to nothing. Honour in the face of a lost cause is I believe called realism. Going down with ones ship is folk lore and not relevant.

On the case of the "stay outs", I was very much aware of some fairly ordinary behaviour on the part of a small minority of those that did not go back.

It was the absolute worst of times greybeard, I was home 36 hours a week tring to hold EW HBA together, and all I want is my mates to consider each other as such once more. At the same time Philomena Travel (read shonky sister travel) who inherited the East West representative office by buying Webster Travel went belly up.

It is a huge call, but if I don't try then I would be a hypocrite.

Best all

EWL

[bonvol]

I understand your sentiments completely EWL but there will be no peace pipe smoked here. The feeling runs too deep.

It is not too well known but EWA nearly got back in the air around November 89 and crewed by AFAP pilots too. The ex FOM of the company was a senior exec with Sheraton hotels at the time and approached Pinky to dry lease most of the F28's.

Amazingly, Ansett agreed and it was seen as a good opportunity to break the nexus. The pilots were to be paid by Sheraton and a schedule was drawn up. It unravelled when insurance became a sticking point, as I recall, but did show that the company was willing to find a back door method to try and get something happening.

Come December the scabs effectively shut the door on any settlement by collapsing in droves. Abeles then got a bit more confidence and the rest is history.

I still believe that had that mass exodus not occured around Christmas 89 something may have been salvaged. Definite cracks were appearing. All moot now of course.

One lesson from 89 is that it's a waste of time to ever give loyalty to an employer. It's a one way street heavily slanted the employers way. Just do your job, pick up the money and go home and never identify your very existence with the company.

Should you become yesterdays news through no fault of your own after 10,20,30,40 years with the one Airline the crunch may cut to depths of your psyche if the company is your "life".

[Eastwest Loco]

It was mine bonvol.

The dream had been shattered earlier though when we were glommed. I was aware of a sub-plot involving a hotel chain but was too busy with bushfires with the collapse of our Route Agent to do more than be harangued 10 hours a day at our new office, eat a Marty Zuccho pizza - drink six cans of VB and collapse into bed.

Please do not think am judging either side, because I am not. I have a great deal of hate within me over '89 too, but it is saved for the real villains, not my mates.

None of those villains (those that are still regretabbly treading this earth) frequent this place as far as I am aware.

best regards

EWL

[Rich-Fine-Green]

EWL:

Huh?. I don't think you got my point.

Legitimacy of a job is a moot point too RFG - If some Aussies didnt go back to work then all the slots would have been filled from overseas, and that is something not one of us would or could have sanctioned.

I was pointing out that some so called 'Heros' had no problem taking jobs from GA pilots (by undercutting their wages) - therefore showing the hippocracy of a lot of posts on this subject of who's a bigger Scab.

Or did you mean that...

If some Aussies didnt go back to work then all the slots would have been filled from overseas,

.....Airline pilots had a legitimate right to take back GA jobs in order to survive.

???.

However, I do agree with your suggestion to all.

Call up an old mate and bury the hatchet (not in their skull!).

Life is too short and need I mention;

Aviation now has too many threats and problems at all levels to be concerned with old history.

[Kaptin M]

No need for any grief over the 2 pilot factions, EWL - we can co-exist - as in alongside - but it was they who severed the relationships we enjoyed, that extended beyond our workplace. That type of relationship/mateship has gone. I fully understand where you are coming from when you suggest we make a call, however there really is no point.

I believe that the best possibility for re-building the type of airline you and I knew, EWL, lies with Virgin Blue. Those pilots and employees are now the "custodians of the future" of Australian domestic airlines.
Look at what happened to ALL FOUR companies, when left in the hands of the scabs!!

As well as the act of "scabbing", the most reprehensible, spiteful, and permanently damaging action, was that of blocking the return to work (of those '89'ers who wanted to) in Australia's airlines.
That action was undoubtedly the final nail in the coffin where the body of reconciliation lay, and was in no part a play that could be credited to Hawke, Abeles & Co - it was instigated SOLELY by the sc#b pilots.

On another note, and in keeping with the Still flying after Ansett header, word has it that there are a group of ex-AN (BAe 146) drivers who have joined Royal Brunei, after buying their own B767 ratings.
Sources say they are quite vocal, and need to zip their mouths if they are looking at staying - apparently they are not yet checked out, but are not endearing themselves to the established employees.in part
Telling the company how to fly a B767 already; refusing to accept the accom - which they get IF they pass the course mind you; telling all and sundry how they did this, they did that, they're owed this, they're owed that.

[bonvol]

On the point of taking GA pilots positions during the dispute. It did occur I know but the pendulum was firmly swung in the GA pilots favour.

Unprecedented numbers of GA pilots got airline jobs!

[Eastwest Loco]

RFG - I can now see where you are heading, and accept that there a 2 sides to every coin that we can argue until we turn blue in the face.

Kaptin M - Apart from the "morals" of what was done on both sides for whatever reason, the thing that upset me the most was the ATI "Black List". This is a document I actually that saw with EW and AN names on seperate printouts. It also included names of pilots not to be employed even if they tried to go back.

I am sure TN had a similar document, as decisions on the future of the Industry were usually made in a corner of Macs or the lounge bar of the Stork with TN and AN management peering over their shoulders and talking in hushed tones. That is also how we knew a fare increase was about to happen

This epitomises just what all of you guys were up against, and is one of the most blatant examples of b@stardisation of a workforce I have ever has the displeasure to see, and it still rankles that my mates on both sides were sorted like grading apples.

If ever aviation needed a united front - now would be it.

I am pleased to see many coming down from DEFCON 3 to DEFCON 4. Any little improvement will only help all of you.

Best all

EWL

[Clive]

Gentlemen,

Normally, like many posters to this thread have espoused, I prefer to steer clear of the “dead end street” of debate into the rights and wrongs of events leading up to the state of the aviation industry as we know it today. However in deference to EWL’s observation that many in this place may be experiencing an ebbing in the health sapping anger (on both sides) of years gone by, I would like to nurture this possibility by telling my story and making just a few comments/observations.

Firstly a declaration of interest – I am one of those described in this place as a member of the “dirty dozen”. I have never hidden behind an alias and have always used my real name when expressing my views here. Sadly that has effected my job prospects in this industry as I have been rejected at least once to my knowledge, since the demise of Ansett, on what I understand was on the basis of being a $cab sympathizer. I believe however that my position has given me a unique perspective in the entire sorry affair.

As a junior First Officer, at the time, the 18 months out of the only industry I was skilled in, and had ever known, in 89/90 was horrific to say the least. My survival was only secured through the generosity of colleagues (many whom I had never met) via the marriage/home/life saving concept of the welfare fund. The news, in late 1990, that AFAP court action had resulted in the interviewing of hundreds of those in a similar position to myself was more than exciting. But this joy soon became despair as most friends, and even my brother-in-law (who can attest to my reapplication date for the conspiracy theorists amongst us), were all gradually advised that they were unsuccessful. Why I was chosen I still don’t know to date… but as history shows, 12 (13 in fact) were, thankfully (or though many on this forum might say – sadly) I was one of them.

So after 18 months out of work, towing the union line, and keeping the faith, the joy of re-employment became a very difficult decision indeed. Contrary to Greybeard’s beliefs…..

“It doesn't matter when you went back, when you joined, all helped to allow the situation to develop to the current state of the Airline Industry in Australia.
I HOPE YOU ARE A PROUD LOT, YOU SURE DID WELL IN STUFFING UP AUSTRALIA.”

…… the only option for me was to leave the industry or accept the offer. The 18 months away from the flight deck made me all but unemployable overseas.

So where am I going with all this? Well the initial concept of “hatchet burying” was difficult indeed. Foe example one of the first Captains I flew with upon my return was from my original intake. My command (and I’m grateful for it – don’t get me wrong) came many many years later, but it did come contrary to my understanding of how I might be treated. Had I not got on with life, “laid my cards on the table and accepted my colleagues as mates again” as EWL so aptly put it, then I believe things would have been very different and I would either be out of the industry forever or in an early grave through stress related illness.

So I worked hard, accepted the new world order, gained my command and completed a couple of degrees as insurance against a similar episode. And yes a similar episode (although under vastly different conditions) has occurred. Thankfully I have work (in S.E. Asia) and am trying to get on with life - again.

For those I regard as mates most recently displaced by the dynamic nature of our industry I say this… the collapse of Ansett, and our lives with it, seems only days old even though it will soon be 2 years. Perhaps this will give an insight into why the “dispute” seems like yesterday to those most vocal on this forum. Particularly as many of us experience life away from home and family. The anger they express must surely be at least comprehensible as you feel anger towards Air New Zealand management, The Federal Govt., or Dixon (depending upon your theory of the collapse).

To those I have not had the pleasure knowing for many years, since the equally devastating event in our industry destroyed much of your lives, I understand your anger. But as poster after poster has said here… it does no good. I know you understand the desperation that has led to the suicides reported in this forum, and the life altering results these recent events enacted upon all stakeholders… not just the pilots. I also understand that to “kiss and make up” is nigh impossible. We must all agree this will not happen. What has happened has happened… what has been said has been said…. It’s too late to take it all back.

But it’s not too late for all to take a step back. Thank whichever higher being you believe in that you were not in the Sari Club having a drink a few short months ago, that you were not born into a loving family that found itself under a bomb in Kahbul, that you had not chosen a life as an accountant and been chosen to represent your company in its offices on the 95th floor of the World Trade Centre in late 2001, and that you are blessed with good health and hopefully a loving family.

I am lucky enough to find myself in such a position and I will continue to regard all those in Aviation as my mates (save some of those in management positions whose job description outstrips their abilities 10:1 and who make the “Peter Principle” look like HR policy). I suffer from bouts of anger and depression over the “what ifs” of this life, just as anyone would… if you don’t then check for a heartbeat.

I am sure I will receive opposition for the position life has dealt me and the way I view the situation, and it may again effect my future prospects, but I prefer to “direct my anger where it is due” (as the sage EWL has suggested). Sadly I think we all have vastly different views as to that direction, and who is due to receive it.

Good luck to all.

[leftfrontside]

I'm enjoying this stosh guys because gradually all the facts are coming out keep it up.

PPK's silence lately though is a worry?

EWL you are wrong about your qoute:

"Captains to bag snatchers having unrealistic pay scales"

One of the main reasons that '89 occurred was because of Hawkes "bl.......dy ACCORD" which enabled 6 week trained Hash Hags and ash tray cleaners to achieve unrealistic pay scales where they ended up getting more than Co-Pilots with 6 or 7 years in the job. Where was the justice in that?

As for those "SC$%BS becoming "mates" again get real, we all took a democratic vote to proceed down the said path and those SOB's went to water as soon as it got tough. Even worse someone here likenend '89 to The Great War, well no one in their right mind would go to war with those Vermin/Scum of the lowest order for as you know "YOU GET SHOT IN THE BACK"

:mad: :mad:

[Woomera]

Past the ton guys, please feel free to start anothery