V.A.T. Petition

[Tosh McCaber]

It really is a disgrace that our government demands 17.5% VAT on legitimate studies towards a professional career, whilst other students not only have their fees paid, but have no onerous VAT obligation on their course, be it Doctor, Architect, Lawyer, or the study of David Beckham!

I would like to start a petition to be presented to the Government, to end the VAT obligation for anyone genuimnely carrying out the ATPL course, and ask anyone interested to join this thread. Sign up below.

[Pilch]

Too right - Count me in !!

Are there any politicians or high profile public figures who might help ?

[Pielander]

I'm only a low profile figure, but count me in anyway.

I shall henceforth endeavour to increase my profile by means of the consumption of copious quantities of pies.

[lone eagle]

Could not agree more, it is a disgrace that we are treated in this way. Put me down.

[Ja]

Stop paying anything! Lets all boycott paying our own fees and do a 'sit in' on all the major runways until HM Gov recognise when home grown talent need/deserve help!

[sd]

Been there, had the letter back from my MP etc etc.
Trouble is, our training providers are, in the words of the treasury dept 'providing educational and training courses on a commercial basis for profit and have to charge for their services plus the standard rate', The letter then rambles on to say that it would not be possible to consider VAT relief in this field, as it would be unfair on other sectors of the communiy who could be considered at least as worthy.....STUPID BLOODY GOOD FOR NOTHING JOBSWORTHS!!!!!
It took nearly six months to get that reply together with one from the Dep of Education who claim that NVQ was removed ... 'due to lack of demand'!!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:
It would be interesing to hear if Guildhall charge VAT, as they are your actual bog standard University.

[liquidhockey]

count me in 500 times over!!!!!
this v.a.t is absolutley disgusting.
It actually knocks me sick!!
Do the government want a country full of people who can't/wont better themselves?
They certainly are'nt with this HUGE v.a.t charge on top of the obsurd price we pay for training!!!
GOOD LUCK MATE YOU HAVE ALL MY BACKING UP!
MAY GOD HELP US!

[Sagey]

Best of luck, support 100%

What we need is a flight school with charitable status, ie all profits ploughed back into the school and therefore could possibly get some taxation benefits etc.

It still remains a disgrace that V.A.T has to be paid on such trainning. ATPL trainning is a career not an expensive hobby!!!

Sagey

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Put me down as well.With the election put off till June we might get the MPs to listen....HA! HA! HA! HA!..."Nurse is it time to see the ducks yet?" :mad: :mad:

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GET THE BLOODY NOSE DOWN!

[TheNavigator]

I couldn't agree more!

Count on me for this!

TheNavigator

[ronchonner]

Put me down too and send this to the FAA in same time, the department of education in Washington D.C. will have a good laugh!!! :)
the FAA schools does nt charge any VAT.

[Hot&Heavy]

Happy to add my signature if it helps the cause.

I fear that the democratic process may not be of much use to us, but you don't know unless you try en masse.

H&H

[long final]

100% behind the idea.
Regards
LF

[Sagey]

Out of interest, do Airlines have to pay V.A.T on sponsored cadets, or is the tax written off?

Would be very interesting, and very unfair if it is written off
Sagey

[foghorn]

Put me down - I've already written to my MP about this, I got the usual treasury bluster back:

"We believe that the issues regarding self-sponsored pilot training are something that the industry should be responsible for: for companies the VAT is deductable".

Basically says 'if we pretend these people don't exist we can go on stitching them up'.

Don't expect any help from the government, guys, it gets bigger headlines and buys more votes to bail out a few hundred workers at a car factory or steel plant every year than it does to help us.

Sagey yes, a company can deduct the VAT on training - basically they subtract the VAT on everything that they buy from the VAT on what they sell and pay the remaining amount to Customs and Excise.

Thus VAT is only really charged to end-users - you and me.

Ronchonner I though the local sales tax was levied on the aircraft rental part of any training over there.

[This message has been edited by foghorn (edited 03 April 2001).]

[socrates]

Sagey.

A very good point. I remember having a similar conversation about this particular situation with someone a while ago.

It seems that as sponsored cadets are part of the training programme and that the airlines must set aside funds to pay for this then the total amount can be offset against tax, as it is inward investment.

Add to this a reasonable discount (and do not be fooled that OATS/Cabair etc do not give discount) then you begin to get a good idea of the sort of cost it becomes to an airline.

A typical educated estimate is 10/15% school discount followed by the reduced tax relief on that figure at the end of the fiscal year, which will be at the 40% rate, so you can see the sort of price an airline will pay.

Having said that, if wrong I will be corrected no doubt.

There is definately something worthwhile exploring with respect to a charitable flight training organisation. With all the bad news surrounding OATS and Cabair lately a new and reputable school would definately cause a stir. In addition, [in my humble opinion] the school would primarily/only attract self sponsored students so there would be none of that nonsense associated with the airline cadets and favoritism; yes I've been there. As it would be a charitable organisation, I would imagine that flight costs would also be slightly cheaper.

According to my sources there are many airline pilots due to retire this year; what better source of instruction, so if someone wants to pursue the charitable school idea then prehaps the time has come.

Finally, businesses can now get all sorts of funding; ie, Objective 1, Princes Trust etc.

Sorry to waffle, but I'm just trying to throw ideas into the ring!!!

:)

[Perfect PFL]

I with you.

I agree that ATPL training should be treated the same as any other professional training such as that for doctors, lawyers etc.

Perfect PFL

[ickle black box]

Put my name down for supporting this, definitly.

I wonder if there is any way to get around the vat, the way IT contracters do (or used to, until the govt clamped down on it). They would set up a company, and get the company they work for, to pay their company. They could then charge all their expenses to their company, and hence reduce the taxable earnings. They can still do this, but are now not allowed to work for the same employer in this manner, for more than a certain length of time.

i.e. For the ATPL, Would it be possible to setup a VAT registered flying company, which you own, and are the only employee. You could train (directly relevant to your company) pay vat to the flying school, and reclaim it. When you started work commercially, the airline could pay your salary + vat to your company, the airline could reclaim the vat. Can one then disolve the company soon after, and work as a normal employee???

Can anyone who knows about this sort of thing, update us as to wether anything like this can be legally and easily done.

ickle

[BJF]

A good fight, lets have a go.
I'm in.

BJF

[Vicious Squirrel]

Count me in!!! VAT off training is the least they can do!

[RVR800]

Agree its a disgrace...

Rt. Hon. Gordon Brown M.P.

AOPA - any progress ?

Err no..

[G SXTY]

Agree 100%. Cynical as I am about the chances of changing Treasury policy, if you don't even try & do anything, you don't have much to complain about.

Perhaps a wannabee living in the most marginal Labour constituency could hand in a petition?

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Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit pruning.

[hassel]

Why stop there?
The money spent is an investment and as such should be reclaimable against Income Tax paid. Does anyone know what would happen if you ran your flying career as a business?

[E-Fizz]

You most definately have my vote on this one!

Paying VAT for your education so that once you qualify and earn over £28,000/year you can pay income tax at a higher rate (40%)stinks! It is a real tragedy that people who aim for their dreams are treated this way. The government want it all their own way - they did the same with IT contractors and the IR35 tax law. They want a mobile work force who can provide highly specialised skills AND they want them to run Limited companies BUT they don't want them to take the perks that ANY Limited company Director is entitled to! They insist on you providing all of the paperwork, articles of association, accountants etc etc but when it comes to the cash they wriggle it out of you with semantics...

Setting up a VAT registered company for flight training could be quite a good idea. The problem comes when you justify your day. They nailed IT contractors by claiming that because they reported to a place of work and were given direction on what to do during their working day, the contractors were technically working for someone else and as such should be taxed at source.

I am sure that eventually the government would concoct some sort of excuse toward flying. But as that would take some time, rather than pay £5250 in VAT on £30000 without re-course in a claim (even a partial one), then it is certainly worth a go!

[GJB]

Good call.

I am against VAT on any education / training as it serves as a barrier to entry (through the higher costs involved).

[foghorn]

Hey, I'm an IT contractor and in training for a CPL/IR. I discussed running the costs through my company with several accountants -this means that I could claim VAT back and pay for the training out of untaxed income (like NVQ)

The unanimous repsonse was don't do it!!!

The Revenue have a 'fish' detector and this certainly whiffs strongly of it (especially since I'll be challenging them if they try to get me with IR35 tax).

ickle - that was the scheme I was thinking of trying - I was thinking about air taxi or instructing through the company to reduce the fishy smell for the revenue.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained I suppose, but I think I'll have enough to deal with come CPL/IR time without being worried about arguing about it all with Hector.

[M13]

:mad: :mad: :mad: It's Discraceful. I'M IN!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:


[This message has been edited by M13 (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Harold Bishop]

Count me in, it is disgusting that we pay the government for the right to flight training.

Disgrace

[FartPower]

Count me in too....

I still dont understand why every other profession is exempt.....

Again its like this country does not want anyone to fly... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Cron]

I'm in

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London Tower this is Skyflash...

[ickle black box]

Seeing as there is a general election comming up in just over a month, it's probably the best time to ask MP's or budding MP's akward questions about this. They will all be out on the streets campaigning for votes, answering questions and kissing babies, and fairly easy to get at.

Can we mere PPRuNe's get this question asked to the right people. One good place would be one of the late evening 'Question Time' for MP's shows on TV etc ..

ickle

[touch&go]

Well you have my support, shame its to late for me as I forked out the VAT many years ago. Glad you ran with this topic,it was somethinkg I was moaning about in the 50K for OAT thread the other day.

[Superfly]

don't mean to be cynical but who gives a sh...t about the claims of few individuals out there >>> people training for the right to fly. There is no national school of airline pilots in the U.K so the selection has to be made by another mean : MONEY . Why don't Professional pilots get TAX relief ? because there are to many of them out there, IT's always the same story, airlines are recruiting and BLA-BLA-BLA but only the type rated people who have thousands hours on type
and us poor wanabee sods are left struggling to get this 1st job.
I find it completely disgusting but there are rules and we have no choice but follow them > if we want to change something we must ACT > 1st would be to create an Association and then we can start to be annoying to Officials......

[ROTATION]

Superfly, sad but true indeed! It's all about supply and demand.

Ridiculous to see vocational tax relief withdrawn on such a highly vocational training course!

Add my name to the list

[schooner]

sign me up too.
taking into account the likelyhood that after a few years employment most airline pilots salary's put them in the top tax bracket aswell, the whole situation stinks.

cheers

[threadbare]

Too late for me but if there is a petition to be signed count me in aswell.

Going back to the question of sponsored cadets and tax I was recently on a part sponsorship and unless you were NVQ registered you had to pay tax on your share of it.

[Rote 8]

Tosh

You can sign me up by all means.

Unfortunately however you should be aware that Tony and his mates couldnt give a flying 5h1t about anyone but themselves.

Good Luck anyway.

Cheers

[togaroo]

A bit of focus is required me thinks.

From memory when this topic was last raised on pprune it was around the disappearance of the NVQ which was as I interpret it, bastardised by individuals to get a PPL who did not intend to continue through to an ATPL. Added to the fact that the system was based around competency training akin to the apprentice schemes and at best a minefield for flight schools to interpret and implement. Thus, the small take up by people training and actually qualifying for a NVQ. There were other issues, but these were the main ones that stuck in my memory.

As an ATPL can now only be gained through modular or integrated study with an approved training organisation, this structure is more akin to the university system (tertiary education) and should be easier to keep track of (registration for VAT relief). So perhaps to qualify for VAT relief this should be done through a recognised training provider for someone completing studies in an ATPL course. The attraction of JAA member students who would not have to pay VAT would surely benefit businesses in the UK and the governments coffers. There would have to be a procedure if some one opted out of a course, which could be messy - but we are all here committed to the LHS of a shiny jet aren't we?

Some ammunition to support a claim for VAT relief is that pilots once earning jet salaries are in the top 5% tax bracket and thus fork out enough tax as it is at that level so the government would get their cut eventually!! An increase in JAA member students would be beneficial to UK businesses and to the UK government.

Unfortunately, for wannabe’s to get that jet job, the sacrifices and personal financial commitment can be best described as criminal. What other vocation are you required to personally take on such a large debt to gain a vocational career with such standards as continual assessment and medical scrutiny. I wonder how many backbenchers would approve of a annual medical paid out of their own pockets, added to the fact a renewal test paid out of your own pocket to prove you are still competent.

The over riding factor in this situation is that supply simply exceeds demand and the government can afford to be complacent when this exists, whereas doctors and teachers (Rotation and I hope so!) are in constant need.

My suggestion for action is to base a VAT exemption as an opportunity for all to access professional pilot training. The case being for a student leaving school without a family fortune, such a student will not be able to finance a career as a professional pilot. Surely, this is discriminatory (tax upon higher education)? Added to this is the fact that the industry is continuing to grow at 5% PA and is one of the worlds largest spin off industries - i.e. support services, freight, manufacturing, support of other business (travel) tourism.

A decisive statement showing the benefits of a system to the community at large is required to have any hope of reaching legislation. As has been mentioned there are so many other ‘worthy’ causes also struggling for tax relief. The statement must be written to reflect the future requirements and show that there will be benefit beyond the personal gain, not that I couldn’t do with the cash.

Stand up and be counted – ready for the push Blackadder? A cunning plan is required, a frontal assault can be fatal.



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Its life Jim, but not as we know it!!

[togaroo]

WWW Can you add anything to this discussion as I remember back in 98 that you had a draft letter to send out to local politicians, what was the response?

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Its life Jim, but not as we know it!!

[Sagey]

What about PPRuners who have the cash to self fund, joinning force and all going around trainning schools as a group looking to train as a group (ie 10 people have more bargainning power) bet you will get a discount and better treatment!!!!!

It will not solve the taxation issue, but it is a thought.

Sagey

[Autofly]

With an election coming up, this is my knid of post. Come on Mr. Brown, get it sorted! We pay through the nose when you help us out so come on and give us all a chance. Lets face it, he can't be making millions out of this tax can he!


AF

[Landing Gear]

Hear......Hear......

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...Gear down.... Three green .....

[Tosh McCaber]

Togaroo,

Thanks for these sage comments. I would, however, add my opinion that, although there may be an over supply of newly qualified pilots, there certainly is a shortage of experienced pilots. The blokes who are qualifying now are the ones who will be in demand in a year or two.

Another thing, how many Art, History, Psychology, etc., etc., graduates go on to pursue the same career as they have been funded through University for by the State? Very few, I would say, from discussions with friends who have been on these courses. Many of the ones I know are now “filling in”, working in restaurants, shops and bars, because their courses have not been vocational. How many drop out of their University and College courses because of “it wasn’t right for me” attitude.

Compare this attitude with the average ATPL student, who works his butt off. This could be partially due to the fact that there is a vast amount if money at stake- but why should our successive governments of all colours steal a very large proportion of that amount in tax- because they see students as an easy target, with no real means of protesting.

THEY ARE TAXING US TO LEARN- surely, amongst other things, VAT on the cost of learning is against our Human Rights?



[This message has been edited by Tosh McCaber (edited 03 April 2001).]

[little red train]

VAT Should be passed on to the end user. Not the Pilot the Pax, and It is on the ticket price/Rental Rate.

Claims the System would be to complicated are unfounded if incoperated into the training records so stringently required for Licence Issue.

I read a goverment white paper on this and their take was that All pilots were airline sponsored and therfore the VAT was recliamed by the Company. If they didn't charge VAT in the first place, there would only be a cut in paperwork! and the totally ignored self-funders would be helped.

Today I finaly checked my Proper Mail address and found a goverment type worker offering to help write a letter, If your listening, sorry it took so long to reply, and your services could be invaluable in this instance.

What about an offical PPRUNE partition? Does BALPA care? (VAT not effecting BA in any way)

backed up by a mailbomb from everyone to there respective MPs.

PS, Yes I'm against VAT :)

[aztec25]

Count me in 100%
Aztec

[cortilla]

count me in this too.
Going back to the charities thing for a flight school, to reclaim vat. I looked into the reams and reams of jar-fcl's to see if this is legal. Guess what the b@stards thought of that too. An FTO must be a business with a proper business plan, and a suitable source of income etc etc. to get the holy FTO status

Europe 1 Pilots 0

[HomerSimpson]

Count me in, I'm fed up of paying VAT for training. We all know its not a fair world, but if it doesn't work in our favour, when these people in Parliment want to go on holiday, I'll go on strike, and I hope eveyone else would follow!

Message that should be displayed in the Houses of Parilment 'If Ar$eholes could fly, this place would be an airport'!

Homer ;)

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Duff, Duff, that Wonderful stuff. Ummmmm Doughnuts

[G - HIGH]

Yeh, definately count me in! I hate paying V.A.T on anything!!!

[liquidhockey]

put me down mate
the government are already rolling in money and then they have the cheek to build the millenium dome even when the people they are representing say THEY DONT WANT IT and now its being torn down!!!!!!!!!

[Tigereye]

Count me in.
The govenment should either bring back NVQ, or eliminate the VAT on ATPL courses.

[Superfly]

yes, put me down mate ! well pissed off about this

[Base leg]

and me too.....
this topic will run and run and run....

[Quicksilver]

Count me in - most of us pay or will be paying substantial amounts of income tax, it's about time we had the same tax breaks that are extended to other professions.

If you want to be a doctor, barrister or even artist you can get grants or at very least loans in excess of £20,000.00 with no interest to pay until course completion, but not trainee commercial pilots.

Is this fair? We all know the answer.

Quicksilver

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...............
Blue Skies

[Arkwright]

Count me in!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

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[Sprawler]

I'm soooo in.

[Stu Pidkent]

Why should I have to pay VAT on training for a professional qualification ??

Count me in

[Hap]

I couldn't agree more. Sign me up!

Does BALPA have a position on this?

[WX Man]

Good move... put my name down on the petition.

[togaroo]

Tosh
I'm not sure if this is possible, but perhaps it possible for capt PPrune to set up a petition on this site similar say to a visitors book or someone prepared to host a site (I cant at present). Then details such as name and address or a valid email address could be used as a part of the signature collection progress.

What do you think?



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Its life Jim, but not as we know it!!

[SKYYACHT]

I understand the the Continentals France, Germany and benelux countries do not charge VAT on fuel for flight training....not sure if this is a fact or just hearsay (or heresey). Im with you guys. I am fimly against VAT on all flight training related to the issue of a commercial flying licence.

Tailwinds

[Blindside]

Count me in.

Blindside

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Half man, Half jalfrezi.

[aireng]

Put me down ... best thing ive heard in ages ....i was told i wouldnt be allowed any tax relief because to become a pilot was to be bettering yourself in a career ! Funny that because all the help that was given to a friend of mine to go into a computer career seems to have bettered him into a couple of houses and a very nice Lotus esprit.... and i paid for his training thru my jolly old tax code .

[SOHCAHTOA]

Add me to the list.

[capendoc]

I have just written to my MP, so count me in.

[trolleydollylover]

Good Luck Tosh

FAO TOSH MAC AND PIELANDER

If you need any help with the organisation of the petition drop me an e-mail amd I will host it on my web site next month. Great crusade...Good luck to Pielander that truly is an honorable mission. May the Ginsters force be with you.

[email protected]

No looneys please.

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Whoa there bigfella, whoa!

[Harves]

COUNT ME IN !!!

[I Am Ugly]

Put me down

[Pielander]

We have lost visual with the feet - Looking good so far! :)

[matt747]

And me too!

[Unusual Attitude]

Me also.

[schuler_tuned]

in total agreement.
sign me up!

[006]

1) to the vatless payments on training

2) also could they have the decent courtesy of having some respect by renaming it, or woulod that cost us too much as well

[str12]

I'd rather not be put down just yet and I know plenty of women who are happy to do that ...but please add me to the list!

[ioan_jones]

Free free to add my name to the list, it'll (hopefully) help in a few years time.

[lone eagle]

Sorry, I have already replied but thought that I would get this thread back onto page one where more pruners can sign it. Remember this is a worthy cause so don't hold back.

Cheers,

LE.

[togaroo]

Back to the top - surely there are more people than this that can't afford VAT on training!

tosh please email me.



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Its life Jim, but not as we know it!!

[Capt Wannabee]

Stick me down

[Ham Phisted]

I was claiming tax relief through NVQ - not impressed when it was stopped. The amount of revenue that this training generates cannot be huge in governmental terms but it makes abig difference to the individual.

What do want - tax relief
When do we want it - now!

Say after me....

[Ready4Takeoff]

Count me in. We have to pay enough anyway without paying for the VAT too.