Today's A109K2 Accident in MMMX (Pics Included)

[BlenderPilot]

The following pictures are what happened this morning to my friend Fernando, he was in a hover when he apparently suffered a complete T/R failure in this A109K2.

WHAT REALLY MAKES ME MAD is that if this would had happened in a helicopter with collective mounted throttles, it could have been perfectly controllable, without having to do unnecessary stunts such of as trying to control a wildly spinning helicopter, let go of collective, find the levers, pull them back, go back to the collective, (helicopter spinning faster now) and make a good auto to the ground with out hitting anything on the ground!

I'm sorry but putting throttles in the roof is just plain stupid! There's just no reason for it, after seeing this if I am ever in the position to purchase a helicopter, the ones with roof mounted throttles will be at the very bottom of my list.

BTW, my friend is ok, banged his head a bit, but at home now, this took place in a very narrow and and congested taxiway and no one was hurt, luckily.

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/TZZ2B1.JPG

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/TZZ1B2.JPG

[Barannfin]

What helicopters dont have collective mounted throttles? I thought the throttles on the roof were just for adjusting each engine seperately. I do agree with you, something as critical as engine control should be easy to use in an emergency. Glad to hear your friend is ok.

[soggyboxers]

Almost all modern twin engined helicopters have roof mounted fuel control levers. The good old days of the Bell 212/412 and S58T were the last of the modern (ish) helicopters with collective mounted throttles. Now, with the advent of FADEC on most new and upcoming machines, the fuel flow control levers have been relegated only for the control of the engines in manual in the event of a governor failure.
Is it progress? Dunno.:confused:

[simon_says]

It's interesting that you focus on the throttle design of the Agusta after this accident. I guess from the pictures he was in the hover so it really doesn't matter where the throttles are, a failure like this is so quick keeping it level at impact is really all one can expect to do.
The 109 and the 119 have a history of tail rotor problems with poor blade design and even worse mechanical construction and schematics. I dont know what caused this failure and would appreciate the information if you know it.
My point is quite clear, the Agusta family have tail rotor problems not throttle problems.

[Head Turner]

Of course throttles(piston)/fuel control levers(turbines) should be in the hands of the operator/pilot to enable some control in situations like this. I believe the MD 900/600, Agusta A119, AS350b3, some AS350B's, Bell 205/206 modles and of course all the piston engined ones have T/FCL's which can be hand operated. If others do then I don't know as I haven't flown them.
The Gazelle, most single and twin Squirrels have levers and I would guess that the designers did this for a good reason, possibly the complexity/cost of the collective lever option.
Incidentally, IF a hand FCL's system had been available in this accident, and the pilot had closed the FCL's, it's likely that there would have been less damage and possibly the u/c would have coped with the subsequent landing.

Agusta tail rotor design is very basic and a poor effort. I believe that a 'new' composite construction is in the works. The whole thing needs a complete re-work.

[Steve76]

Amen BP,
Not only poor designing for this type of incident but bad for training, govenor highsides/lowsides and fire emergencies. Basically, all the bad things...:(

[helmet fire]

BP & others,

I strongly agree with the collective mounted throttle sentiments. This has come up on several other threads such as

Things wanted on Helicopters (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58924&perpage=15&pagenumber=4)

and the one about the Rescue crewman being killed when the Augusta he was training in suffered some sort of overspeed and had to pickle him off into the water.

Intresting that both of the two new eurocopter lighties have collective mounted throttles (120 & B3) moving away from floor mounted levers. As I have said before, I like the long arc of travel kind of throttle such as the 212/412/205 as opposed to the tiny arc of travel 206 type throttle. When did the UH-1 first fly? I dont think anyone has designed a better, more practical, more easily manipulated throttle since then!!

Why not?

[CTD]

206 throttle is pure crap, no doubt. However, the 407 tap is magic. The 427 isn't bad either.

EC has recognised the benefits of collective mounted throttles, my question is "why haven't the other manufacturers?" Cuz overhead levers are cheap and less complicated. Roof mounts look cool but are dangerous in every way, ranging from engine control down to brain FOD.

[Grainger]

Must admit, I'd always wondered what you would do with roof-mounted throttles if the tail rotor quits. Now I know.

Multiple congrats to your mate Fernando, BP :ok: Sounds like he did a great job of getting it down without it causing even more mayhem. Glad he's OK.

[Thomas coupling]

Spoke to one of the design engineers at ECD about this some time ago. He said they continue to follow the traditional company method of manual throttles placed where the pilot needs them...in his hands at all times!!!
Common sense to me.

Whether it would have been "perfectly controllable" is another thing. Undemanded descent and yaw to a heavy landing is far from 'controllable' , Blender?

[Vfrpilotpb]

Glad your pal the Pi is Ok, but on Monday comming I am spending all day in the new A109 that belongs to my pal, suddenly feel that funny tight feeling in the trouser dept:(

[Thud_and_Blunder]

On the subject of the desirability (or otherwise) of roof-mounted engine controls, does anyone have pics of the S65 (don't know which version of the -H53 family it was) that chopped its own cockpit top off and couldn't then be conventionally shut down?

[S76Heavy]

There's a picture of a BHL S61N in the drink, that apparently suffered same
http://209.196.171.35/images/sinking61.jpg

on the non-official skyweaver site about BHL http://www.skyweaver.co.uk

But it would not have mattered much in that case anyway, as the A/C was a total loss. Perhaps even aided to stability in the water.

For 2 pilot ops I see nothing wrong with throttles in the roof. Single pilot is different, I agree. But if the T/R habitually fails, fix that first before complaining about throttles.

[Nick Lappos]

Thanks 76heavy, I was really wishing someone had railed against tail rotors that fail, and then maybe as an afterthought mentioned the throttles......

[BlenderPilot]

To be honest, the reason why I didn't mention why the tail rotor failed in the first place is because the last two T/Rotors that I have seen failure of (and only ones) were because of human error, and since both of these helicopters had collective mounted throttles they both ended without injuries or major damage, tail rotors are complex turning things and can be affected by many things, from the output quill, driveshafts, gearboxes, to a millon external things, THEY FAIL, AND WHEN THEY DO THE PILOT MUST HAVE THE INMEDIATE CONTROL IN HIS HANDS OF POWER, anything else is just not right.

The two incidents that I mentioned above,

# 1 Bell 412 terminating the approach to a hover about 6 feet off the ground, single pilot, heavy leather SOCCER BALL flying into the T/R at penalty speed, helicopter starts turning like crazy, climbs a little bit, pilot closes throttle and before he touches the ground he's perfectly level and not turning that much, no damage except the obvious.

# 2 Bell 212, taking off towards the sea, leaving 500 feet engine cowling opens, separates, flies into T/R, it stops, yaw was so severe the helicopter makes a split-S type manuver, pilot rolls power off, when he recovers level he reapplies little power to make it to the beach, flies back to the beach and makes a low power approach rolling the power off before touchdown, no damage except the obvious. Single Pilot

Try this with the power levers above your head single pilot.

[S76Heavy]

Blenderpilot, please reread my last about single pilot and two pilots..

[Notar fan]

Blenderpilot,

I am hearing from Mexico that the pilot was repositioning the helicopter to avoid another aircraft and the tail rotor got stuck in a tree.
Are you sure it was a complete tail rotor failure?

[SASless]

Let's define "Tailrotor Failure".......weed whacking ain't in the approved testing proforma I would think. Lordy....stick the ol' T/R into something tougher than it.....and one would expect a negative event. Placement of throttles is the secondary issue here....placement of the tail rotor by the pilot is the primary.

[John Eacott]

Having been there, regrettably, when you use your tail rotor as a chain saw, the placement of the throttles becomes a secondary issue to dumping the lever and getting the thing on the ground.

This was the morning after, before we moved the machine, as landed :(

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/BKL%2001.jpg

The offending tree is in the background, and the rotation scrape from the skid is just visible on the left. A lesson in fatigue management, at 2330 local :mad:

[SASless]

Bet you did not need a cup of mocha java to wake up after that!

[BlenderPilot]

One thing is for sure, the T/R on this Agusta did not hit anything prior to the failure. Nobody really knows yet how/why it happened.

But in any case my point is the T/R stopped producing thrust for whatever reason, and when this happens, single, dual, divorced, or married pilot you definately want to be in a HELICOPTER THAT PUTS THE POWER IN YOUR HAND.

I want to hear arguments as to why you should put the throttles where they can't be reached without letting go a a critical control at the worst possible moment.

Throttles have been placed in the pilots hand for many years now, I personally don't see any reason why it shouldn't be this way, it adds safety and gives you more options in case something goes wrong.

[helmet fire]

We can go back and forward over "secondary issues" etc, but I am still a fan of error tolerance in systems (especially since I make so many errors!!:} ) and I believe the hand mounted throttle has the POTENTIAL to take the edge off the failure - note that I am not claiming it will make it all better, or less catastrophic, or that it is some sort of panacea.

The bleeding obvious has been pointed out several times in this thread - that the tail rotor shouldn't fail, and that is where the concentration should rightfully be. But if it does fail....or the pilot tries a bit of timbercutting.....or a soccer player scores such a good hit.....or the engineer forgets the widget...or.....
then gee it would be nice if the throttles were in your hand, and had sufficient arc of movement to allow you to BEST cope with the result. BUT WAIT...there is more...they would also be of great benefit for governor overspeeds and governor underspeed, governor failures, torque splits, engine fires, engine fires, tail rotor fixed pitch settings, and probably more. As S76 points out - especially when single pilot. And it applies to singles AND twins.

Here is a system that can make a whole gamut of primary failures less painful. So I ask again....

When did the UH-1 first fly? I dont think anyone has designed a better, more practical, more easily manipulated throttle since then!!

Why not?

:confused: