View Full Version : American to lay off 2500 pilots

2nd Apr 2003, 20:05
More bad news...

FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- American Airlines will lay off 2,500 pilots over the next year as it cuts costs in hopes of staving off bankruptcy, union officials said Tuesday.

About 21 percent of American's 12,000 pilots will lose their jobs, with cuts beginning at the bottom of the seniority ladder. Pilots can be recalled within two years if the airline, the world's largest, adds jobs.

The cuts were announced by officials with the Allied Pilots Association, which has agreed to $660 million in annual concessions to help save the company from bankruptcy.

Pilots' pay will be cut 23 percent for one year, beginning May 1. After that, pilots will earn 17 percent less than what they're paid now through the six-year contract, said John E. Darrah, president of the 12,500-member Allied Pilots Association.

Pilots have 14 days to ratify the new contract.

"I don't think anybody's thrilled with the significant pay cuts and furloughs ... but the alternative clearly would be even worse," union spokesman Gregg Overman said.

AMR Corp., the airline's parent, has lost nearly $5.3 billion in the past two years and has faced increasing competition from low-fare carriers. It took a huge step toward preventing bankruptcy Monday by reaching cost-cutting agreements worth $1.8 billion with the pilots and unions representing flight attendants and mechanics.

George Price, spokesman for the flight attendants, said he would not disclose layoff numbers, salary cuts or other details of the agreement.

Meanwhile, AMR Corp. asked the Securities and Exchange Commission for more time to file its 2002 annual report.

2nd Apr 2003, 23:49
Better still - lay off the top end of the seniority list - overpaid already - give them good redundancy terms and they can wander
away to play golf. Everybody else moves up - new commands
and hope for those who will provide the future of the airline.

Light the blue touchpaper and retire - yes I know it will never

Count von Altibar
3rd Apr 2003, 00:04
Well said beamer, these guys have had many good years with AA and profited nicely from it. Might be time to step aside for the younger pilots in the airline whose future depends on it's survival. All I can say is it's such a shame to see the current tidal wave of cash being lost at the US major carriers. I hope things can be turned around soon otherwise some very familiar carriers will be gone. Quite frankly, aviation at the moment is on the slide.

3rd Apr 2003, 00:46
At the risk of being a pedant on the language ... the cash is not 'lost' as people have earned incomes and companies have provided services for which they have been paid. In that light, the money has been useful.

Naturally, too much of it has been spent and American is learning for itself, what it means to be at the top of the heap. As so many others have done before them and others in the future will learn ...

Ignition Override
4th Apr 2003, 12:22
How about Wall Street, in NY City? Is this not where huge profits and losses are made on airline stocks? Think about the possibilities to manipulate the prices!

Could it be just a coincidence that the media has been warning for a while about a probable Chap 11 filing at AMR, and is it just chance that their stock must have dropped to a record low price per share in recent weeks? Which people inside AMR had an opportunity to invest large sums in very cheap shares of AMR stock when "gloom and doom" saturated the business media? Did some members of upper mgmt likely have large chunks of cash with which to invest, knowing that with the press' news of large pay cuts, the share prices could easily double or triple, as they reportedly did? Remember, share prices can easily double if only at a few bucks per share.

One of my points is that those who own major fractions of stock when things look bleak, stand to bring in huge profits once news hits Wall Street. Such major investors intentionally leak very bad news to Wall Street for weeks, in order to buy up thousands of shares and watch them very quickly earn huge profits? When you are ultrarich, bad news is a very good thing when you are well prepared and positioned (especially if you are on the Boards of Directors, salivating at the meaty scent of quick profits, with little concern, if any, for the thousands of familys losing their only major source of income), is it not?

This strategy is only one of many used by the fabulously wealthy "insiders" (this "can" also include former co-owners), never mind what the SEC rules dictate. The media helps to do their bidding, and to accomplish their goals by the repititious bad news from the same old major wire services (API, UPI, CNN, Fox...). Some of these same media writers are either too ignorant or indifferent/arrogant, to comprehend and explain to the laymen that an airline industry which primarily consists of hub and spoke networks, is designed to be quite inefficient, but many business reporters nevertheless chant the same old mindless mantra which blames labor for the main problems with such an inherently handicapped system.

flite idol
4th Apr 2003, 21:05
As I understand it a lot of the AA guys and girls will be going to Embraer and Canadair school ! American Lite, appearing at an airport near you, soon !

5th Apr 2003, 10:47
The funny thing about these layoffs is that by laying off junior, lower paid pilots, labour costs actually go up!!

Each flight hour on the line has expenses, flight crew included. Now, after layoffs, the flight crew for that hour are paid more per hour, hourly operating costs go up, hence margins are reduced!

Micro-Economics 101

6th Apr 2003, 04:06

you would be correct if pay rates remained the same....the 23% across-the-board paycuts will ensure that the remaining pilots operate at a lower cost structure. AA has to be careful that they don't lay off TOO many folks (that's what the lawyer at the briefing said) in too much of a hurry, hence the 12-month implementation schedule.

Some folks are still in denial, including the NY APA rep, who just sent an e-mail blast urging folks to vote "no" and let bankruptcy take it's course....of course, he's senior....he tried to equate the situation to UAL in court and their pay rates, which is a dangerous fallacy for the reasons I'm about to post:

Apparently, again from the bankruptcy lawyer's briefing at DFW, AA has decided that any filing will be done in S. NY, with the same Judge that did EAL....as the lawyer said: "..you don't want to go to this court as a union with a "no" vote on your record..." This is not the same court that UAL is in....you cannot do an apples-with-apples comparison in bankruptcy; the creditors call the shots, not the unions. Many APA members have yet to grasp this point....and the amount of DIP financing available for airlines in the US is diminishing, imposing stricter terms.

Those with more knowledge than I, including 411A, please post some facts here for everybody's perusal...just to help set records straight.

6th Apr 2003, 06:08
The AA pilots now find themselves in (as G. Bush Sr.) would say...deep doggy dodo.
Time to face the music...of the realities of today. MUCH lower pay rates down the pike, whether they like it or not...and most certainly will not.
For those that will lose their jobs (some for a long time), good luck finding work in todays' environment. Wonder how many will try to 'downsource' to AA Eagle, an airline which they collectively look down upon?
Change of career a distinct possibility for many.:rolleyes:
The APA will always lie to their members, and have done so for a long time.

6th Apr 2003, 06:50
This time, I think the APA has been surprisingly honest with it's members....

As you say, the truth is a bitter pill for many.

6th Apr 2003, 09:20
The AA pilots now find themselves in (as G. Bush Sr.) would say...deep doggy dodo.
Time to face the music...of the realities of today. MUCH lower pay rates down the pike, whether they like it or not...and most certainly will not.
For those that will lose their jobs (some for a long time), good luck finding work in todays' environment. Wonder how many will try to 'downsource' to AA Eagle, an airline which they collectively look down upon?
Change of career a distinct possibility for many.
The APA will always lie to their members, and have done so for a long time.

As always 411A, you are consistent,

Again we read the musings from the pontificating US birdman. While it would be a pleasure to use the potential of the internet to learn from those who have gone before us junior guys, we again are to suffer his vindictive, inaccurate verbal defecation about a situation you know nothing about. His posts starts out with common knowledge available online to any village idiot then states that AA pilots look down upon the Eagle pilots. While there may be some conflict with those few American Eagle pilots who want a full date of hire merge, the collective group looks upon them with respect. The word "fool" comes to mind reading reading such garbage as written in his posts.

Your information is old, out of date and irrelevant. As far as I am concerned "old" is something to be respected. But as with anyone, the word "fool" can be added easily.

6th Apr 2003, 11:09
You were asked before by another member on this august forum with regards to your background, but notice that you fail to reply....those who live in glass houses should throw no stones...so as you seem to have all the answers, let's hear some.

AA guys have painted themselves into a corner, plain and simple. Bite the bullet time for them, make no mistake.
Fully expect their pension just might go bye-bye as well.

Burger Thing
6th Apr 2003, 12:11
beamer and Count of Altibar...

I just woke up, a beautiful sunny day outside, sunday morning, but your comments want me to spill out my coffee.

Have you ever heard of senority? Maybe you were lucky in your career to get out of your pampers, then out of Highschool (maybe not in that particular order), then out of a flying school straight onto an A320. Guess what? In other parts of the world people are not that lucky. They have to work hard and take funny jobs to survive and build hours until the find THE airline job.

So, now, finally there after years of suffering, they found a decent airline job worked their way up to a Senior position. And then you come and suggest to lay them off. In preferance of younger LESS experienced guys? Maybe you also understand that an airline in trouble could actually benefit from people with buckets full of experience.

I am not in their shoes, but if I was an senior 777 Captain with AA, I wouldn't like that idea too much, that I was to be laid off after years of faithful service, and a younger FO who just joined on a 717 would keep its job...

6th Apr 2003, 12:43
Yep, you couldn't expect pilots to progress according to qualifications and ability instead of date of hire, why that would be communist. Like the military or managers, as a matter of fact...

Down with meritocracy!

6th Apr 2003, 14:55
Ability to do what... ? Airbubba I think you'll find we all have the same qualification too. Perhaps we should be promoted according to our crosswind landing technique?

7th Apr 2003, 12:10
"AA guys have painted themselves into a corner, plain and simple. Bite the bullet time for them, make no mistake."

411A, From reading the papers, it seems that the management of most of the large US carriers have painted their companies into a corner through mismanagement. How have the AA guys done that. They are employees along for the ride with what appears to be not too competent management. Interesting how some like to kick others when they are on the ropes through no fault of their own.

Ignition Override
7th Apr 2003, 12:56
2500 AA pilots will get laid-off? Were they (often much older) TWA pilots with many years of experience there or mostly very junior pilots hired at AA?

No matter who it is, it is very unfortunate, but were some of the very publicized warnings about possible Chapter 11 filing made, partly to "position" the perfumed princes (on the inside) to buy many thousands of shares of stock very cheaply, and within a few weeks' time make many millions in profits when the share price very quickly tripled?

Some of those "very special people", who own fractions of stock (and out of the public's view, quietly have an airline's Board of Directors under their thumbs) probably own a house near the Bulldog in Amsterdam. Woops!;)

Captain Numpty
8th Apr 2003, 04:46
Heard from an AA Pilot that AA are losing $30.00 for every seat booked!!

Solution............Don't sell tickets!!

My sympathy lies with those who will be affected.


8th Apr 2003, 06:11
Through no fault of their own, you say?
Hmmm, well I guess that the very excessive wages demanded by the APA has nothing to do with this.
Certainly would not agree.
That the AA management agreed to same certainly indicates that there is plenty of fault to go 'round.

8th Apr 2003, 08:23
Ignition Override, the breakdown of the 2500 pilots will be approximately 700 TWA and 1800 AA, which will be the following percentages: 61% of TWA's pilots will be gone (up to 16 years seniority), and 16% of AA's pilots (up to 3 years seniority) will be gone.

I'm sure you'll hear from RAAMJET and other AA/APA posters, that this is perfectly 'fair and equitable'. Strange sense of entitlement, especially from people who were not even born in the US.

8th Apr 2003, 10:13

I've tried to use reasonable language when posting with you....

Your last sentence was completely out of order. At no time have I said "...I'm entitled to...", and I've NEVER objected to legal immigrants to my country, or Americans flying for carriers overseas.

I understand the difficult situation you are in, but I'm distressed that you would resort that kind of cheap shot, behind the anonimity of a keyboard. You intimate that any "entitlement" rights belong only to ex-TWA pilots of white, US, descent.

I immigrated to the US long before I joined AA - I flew for your Air Force on exchange. I know several US citizens flying for European carriers, and I've never even considered objecting to them, and yes, I've been furloughed in Europe - you get on with life and don't burn bridges or make incredibly pond-life remarks about others that you've never met.

The more I read your last paragraph, the more dissappointed I am; let's hope you don't come across to the many "foreigners" reading these forums that you represent the average American.

I know I would be ashamed to have written your words, no matter how unjust I thought my current situation to be. :yuk:

8th Apr 2003, 13:46
>>Heard from an AA Pilot that AA are losing $30.00 for every seat booked!!

Yeah, but they make up for it with volume...



Concessions Prove a Tough Sell
To American Airlines Workers


The contract concessions that AMR Corp.'s American Airlines tentatively won from its unions have run into so much employee resistance that union leaders are coming back to management to ask for changes.

Leaders of American's three unions agreed last week to a package of hefty concessions that would save the airline a total of $1.8 billion a year. American, the world's largest airline, says if it doesn't get the concessions, it will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy-court protection. Last week, the airline was within minutes of filing in New York before union leaders approved tentative agreements.

Voting on those agreements, which require majority approval, will be completed Monday with results to be announced a week from Tuesday.

Leaders of unions representing pilots, flight attendants and ground workers have all run into complaints over the length of the contracts -- six years -- and the minimal annual pay raises of 1.5% that begin next year. "The sense I am getting is that this [tentative agreement] will not pass unless the six-year duration is shortened" and a provision to revisit pay rates before the contract runs out is added, Capt. Tom Frazer, chairman of the Allied Pilots Association's Miami base, said in an e-mail to pilots Sunday. Miami has often been a hotbed of dissent for pilots at American in the past.

Presidents of the pilots, flight attendants and ground workers unions together relayed their members' concerns to management late last week. A spokesman for American said Monday the company was not "back at the negotiating table," but declined to comment on whether executives were entertaining informal talks. "We're not discussing at all where anything is in this process," the spokesman said.

The tentative contracts cut deeply. Pilots would see an initial 23% cut in pay, easing to 17% next year, plus work-rule changes that would result in American shedding about 2,500 cockpit jobs this year. Flight attendants would see pay cut 15.6% on May 1. Within the Transport Workers Union, mechanics would see pay cut 17.5% and baggage-handlers would take a 16% reduction in salary.

Management and nonunion employees also would take pay cuts totaling $180 million of the $1.8 billion in annual savings.

American, based in Fort Worth, Texas, contends the cuts are necessary to stem its huge losses, which totaled more than $5.2 billion over the past two years. The carrier is believed to be burning through more than $5 million a day in cash with the war in Iraq reducing passenger bookings. The airline has told workers it needs to restructure, just like US Airways Group Inc., which emerged from Chapter 11 last week, and UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, which continues to operate under bankruptcy-court protection. American also told its workers that bankruptcy would entail contract cuts that are at least $500 million deeper than the $1.8 billion voluntary agreements.

Faced with the option of bankruptcy, union leaders still believe members will ratify the concessions. Pension benefits would be relatively unscathed, and workers had told union leaders ahead of time they preferred to trade lower pay for preserving pensions, something that could be harder to do in bankruptcy.

"It's not pretty. But it does represent perhaps the best chance we have at this time for keeping American Airlines out of bankruptcy," John Ward, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, told his members.

The contracts do offer some potential upside. The company is offering stock options to purchase 37.9 million AMR shares, which would be priced on the day after ratification, and profit-sharing that would allow workers to share 15% of AMR's pretax operating profits over $500 million.

Opponents, particularly in the pilot ranks, complain that some pay rates will be even lower than at United, and came about under heavy pressure from the company. A group of hard-liners called "Pilots Defending the Profession," or PDP, contends the tentative agreement gives the company too much and accuses AMR Chairman and Chief Executive Donald Carty of "extortion."

"We all know that bankruptcy will most likely be worse, but I will not demean this profession by allowing management to extract more than they have asked for under the threat of a gun," said Capt. Sam Mayer, chairman of American's New York union base and a PDP leader.

Pilot message boards have been filled with anger over cuts and the ultimatum from the company. Some even outlined the "six stages" of grief. Still, even some PDP supporters have urged ratification. "I don't see how bankruptcy is in our short- or long-term interests," First Officer Robert Reifsnyder, a PDP supporter and union negotiator, concluded in a bulletin board posting that was e-mailed by union leaders to pilots in many American domiciles Monday.

Updated April 8, 2003 12:08 a.m.

8th Apr 2003, 13:55
Raamjet, let me give you an example of how I feel, in the hopes you'll understand.

Say I work for BA, as a Yank who married a lovely English girl and got UK citizenship, and live in the beautiful countryside south of Gatwick, say in Brighton or the Hove coast area. I fly wide-bodies at BA, and you are a fairly senior, experienced pilot at British Midland, flying the Airbus 330. Say for example, BA buys BMI, and integrates them the way AA did with TWA, putting 75% of their total workforce at the bottom of BA's seniority lists. Say you lose your wide-body seat, then go to the 737, or even worse, the ERJ. Then, because of your lack of seniority in the unfair integration, you get furloughed/laid-off, then essentially replaced by junior, newly-hired BA pilots much younger and less experienced than yourself. Then I meet you in a pub, or here on PPRune, and tell you it was 'fair and equitable' and 'BMI was a small airline' or 'BMI would have been bankrupt soon anyway'; I frequently justify, or try to justify, my position as a naturalized UK citizen flying for Britain's largest flag carrier, while UK-born-and-bred pilots at BMI, with many more years of seniority/service, get furloughed/laid-off.

How would you feel?

PS I do think you meant "OUR Air Force", right? By the way, I love, and always have loved, the RAF. Just picked up a book passing thru LHR entitled "The Battle" by Richard Overy, about their finest hour in WWII. "Evening Standard" gives it a thumbs up! Send me a PM with your number, if you wish to chat.

9th Apr 2003, 00:57
You were asked before by another member on this august forum with regards to your background, but notice that you fail to reply....those who live in glass houses should throw no stones...so as you seem to have all the answers, let's hear some.


I thought I had made myself clear in several previous posts to you that I was a pilot for AA. Most of my responses to you have dealt with your inaccurate, uninformed, petty, and vindictive generalizations about AA and other major US pilot groups. As for my comments on the SEA landing or our A300 loss, my background is irrelevant. Anyone in aviation knows that making statements about incidents or accidents on level that you have is unforgivable, especially with the A300 crash where there are many issues unresolved at the moment.

As for my profile, I've had the mains of the B757 rolling down the runway at 190+ Kts more than enough times to be "qualified" enough to comment on your mindless attacks on others.

9th Apr 2003, 04:11
Lizad, thats awful fast for a B-757 on the ground. I don't recall ever going that fast, either landing or taking off. I recently did a sim check and landed with less than 5 degrees flap and an assymetry condition, and the Vref speed was only 177 with all that.

Seriously: Do you think the TA will pass? I hear its 50/50 yes/no from my colleagues. What do you think?

corner speed
9th Apr 2003, 05:07
190 kts is not that unusal when you fly into La Paz, Bolivia (SLLP).
Elevation 13313'.
I've been there numerous times myself and it's not unusual to
exceed max tire speed (195 kts) during the T/O roll.
The good old 757 performs like a dream there. :cool:

I'm talking ground speed here and when one exceeds max tire
speed all maintenance has to do is an inspection at the next station. I haven't seen any tread seperation or damage yet.

Corner speed--for some reason the post showed as a double-posting with some strange characters- hence the minor edit.

nitro rig driver
9th Apr 2003, 05:27
as for the so call junior people that AA are getting rid of they are actualy the people that came to AA from TWA,many of which have many more years senority in the airline but lost it in the transfer

9th Apr 2003, 08:40
Nitro, that would be all of about 25 pilots.

There were 2400 pilots at TWA, and speaking for myself, I did'nt apply to AA.

Just because people make lateral moves does'nt give them the right to take someone else's job, nor the right to keep working while more senior, more experienced pilots get furloughed.

Realistically, this entire career is a gamble, and noone knows how it will end up until they hit 60 (or 55 in some cases).

Noone out there is better or more entitled than another; they're just luckier.

9th Apr 2003, 13:41
Hmmm, well I guess that the very excessive wages demanded by the APA has nothing to do with this.
Certainly would not agree.

411A, Ok, I will bite. What do you consider excessive wages. What does an AA pilot earn a year compared to a Delta, or a Southwest Pilot on the B737? Are Southwest pilots earning excessive wages, do Delta pilots earn excessive wages. I am trying to use companies that are not in BK to compare. That is getting harder and harder. I still maintain that in all industries, management controls the destiny of the corporation, the employees are only along for the ride no matter what they may think.

"Just because people make lateral moves does'nt give them the right to take someone else\s job, nor the right to keep working while more senior, more experienced pilots get furloughed"

B767300ER, Do you consider someone more senior to be more experienced? I was a military aviator, mostly single engine single seat. It was always the most capable person that led the flights. When it got down to the short hairs, rank (seniority) had little to do with the capabilities of the individuals concerned. I suppose the airline community only has seniority to base experience on. But age, in my opinion, has rarely meant anything when it comes to raw ability. just one persons perspective. Heres hoping this whole nightmare of recession, 911, war, sars, and whatever is next passes quickly and all have their jobs back. Good luck.

Blue & White
9th Apr 2003, 21:44
It would have been correct to place 100% of TWA below AA pilots. Did you happen to get seniority at your new job? I didn't think so.
This is old news but TWA was acquired not merged. The acquisition of TWA was not the downfall of AA, but it certainly didn't help the financial situation. The mangement at AA and APA is the main culprit and TWA was just one of many mistakes.
Remember, Seniorty is time spent at a SPECIFIC company not just any company.

9th Apr 2003, 23:00
Blue and White,

Your post probably deserves an edit, and you a reprimand for posting it. But to be fair, you're not the only one in this thread who is guilty of attacking the person rather than the issue.

So, to make it perfectly clear to all contributors - remember to attack the issue, not the individual. If you can't play by the rules of this forum, you (and by this, I mean all of you who refuse to do this) will not be permitted to post any longer.

I'm leaving Blue and White's post in here to serve as an example (among others in this thread) on how NOT to debate an issue. I do hope this is perfectly clear. :rolleyes:

Any questions? Don't clog up this thread - PM or e-mail me instead.

Now, back to the issue of the furloughs at AA, please.

10th Apr 2003, 00:16

The following should be considered as maximum for wide-body crew with major aircarriers.

Captains $12,000/mo
F/O's $ 8,000/mo
F/E's $ 7,000/mo (if required on the equipment)

These rates reflect what is available in the marketplace today, and for the near-mid term.

Smaller carriers (offering tax-free salaries+housing) would be,

Captains $8,000/mo
F/O's $5,500/mo
F/E's $5,500/mo (with A&P, $6,000)

These are achieveable rates and we have over a hundred CV's on file, from (experienced on type) folks that would be available with two weeks notice.

Alternately, TCN's are available (with experience on type) for,

Captains $4,500
F/O's $3,000
F/E's $3,000

Plenty of folks in the available pool as well.
Supply...not a problem.


10th Apr 2003, 12:18
Blue&White, your attitude and enormous sense of entitlement (like the world or this industry owes you a living) is completely predictable, typical and understandable. I'd expect nothing less from a dyed-in-the-wool, hardline AA/APA radical who thinks TWA pilots much more experienced and skilled than himself deserve NOTHING.

Now that AA is headed for chapter 11 (don't look now but the TWU is going to vote NO), we'll see how long YOU last after 3000+ more pilot furloughs, 30% paycuts and the gutting of APA's CBA.

Then again, with the US Congress deciding this week to hold hearings into the TWA/AA seniority 'integration' debacle, we'll see who has the last laugh. Careful, you just might get punished---with something fair like neutral, third-party ARBITRATION.


10th Apr 2003, 13:05
It's an unfortunate situation at AA with the furloughs of 2000+ pilots. I'm sure most are great people and excellent pilots.
There are a few though who were turned down for employment at AA in an earlier life and never got over it. These same pilots also were turned down at UAL, DAL, NWA, and CAL. They should thank their lucky stars they have a seniority number at AA. Nobody wants to see anyone in our profession out of a job or going through hard times, although there are some who should not be in this profession.

Blue & White
10th Apr 2003, 21:28
B767300ER, Actually I voted "NO" on the TA at American. The junior guys will eventually fall off the list. However, I figured there must be some kind of pilot shortage that we don't know about. After all, you found employment. How do you like flying that twin-engine prop commuter? :D

10th Apr 2003, 21:36
Chef 411A, upset that his restaurant in the U.S.A attracts no one but the homeless indigents, moves to Somalia where thousands throng daily to eat.

Chef 411A is quoted to say, "In the U.S.A, they wouldn't eat my food due to the vermin, maggots and cholera in my culinary creations. Here in Somalia, they have learned to overlook these things and see my true talent in cooking". ;)

It's all about timing 411A. Your "maximum pay chart" levels are just your babblings. They can go higher in better times, or lower in worse times.

11th Apr 2003, 01:31
Blue&White, once again you've shown your true colors. That's the spirit! Pull up the ladder with the attitude of "I got mine---you get yours", and forget about those pilots less fortunate who may be laid-off, right? Your arrogance, ignorance and isolationism from reality have'nt dissapointed me.

About the commuter job, never flew in the commuters, and currently I'm staring at 4 job offers, a B-747 contract, L-1011 contract, B-747 freight airline and a B-757 charter airline. Nice to have a choice. I'll stack up my logbook, type-ratings and jet experience to yours any day.

About the "NO" vote, no suprise there, coming from you.
I'll bet you're one of those misinformed and sorely misguided souls who participated in that illegal sick-out in early '99, right?

I'm sure you're the pride of American Airlines and the Al-Qaeda Pilots Association! ;)

11th Apr 2003, 02:25

Pilots clearly work under controlled circumstances, i.e. it is not a free market in that one cannot carry one's seniority along when they change.

I follow a simple rule- don't get too friendly with people at work, because they are not really your friends. Most of the same people you drink beer with will cut you off or "pull up the ladder" when their job is in jeopardy or they have a better opportunity. It's an unfortunate fact of work and business. I have several tales of employment woe of my own- you can let it go and move on or get an ulcer. Frankly, they've all helped me move ahead. So much for me.

You chose to fly for TWA for reasons of your own and made that choice freely- now unfortunately, and possibly unfairly, it is coming to light that it may not have been the best choice- but please stop slagging American and its' pilots (BTW, I really don't prefer them from my perspective either).

Jack The Lad
11th Apr 2003, 03:09

You normally talk some good sense in your numerous posts, even though most pilots find your views quite outrageous and that's why I smile :p .

However, I question your pay rates and their acceptability in the market place. You reckon an experienced Capt can earn $12,000 per month in the contract market and an F/O $8,000?

In some inhospitable parts of the world, maybe, but get real in Europe at least, these are not the going rates. Why do you think the American Aviation sector is in the doldrums? You guys priced yourself out of the market place! You will have plenty of guys on your books at those rates!


Oops 411A

I meant to say, you will have plenty on your books, but that is where they will stay...on the ground, not in the air!


11th Apr 2003, 04:53
Jack The Lad,

I'm not an economist but there are a few things to keep in mind in the debate here on AA pilot salaries.

Here are some facts;

In constant 1982 dollars, AA pilot salaries are down something like 22% for equal aircraft type, excluding FE's who aren't around any more.

Considering job growth, I've read where Europe has had near zero total job growth while the US has had millions (year period unknown).

Europe has behind the US with the deregulation game. US salaries stagnated for years after deregulation.

AA pilot pay costs could never keep pace with the tidal wave of cash wasted in my 13+ years at AA. 132 million for a failed car rental computer system, 600 million on Canadian airlines, a very bad call on a Flight attendant strike (500 million?), a unnecessary family feud with pilots (400+ million), $1.8 Billion dollars in Fokkers thrown away, A fleet of SF340's and ATR's thrown away, millions each year for sports arena naming rights, two 120flt/day hubs thrown away (still paying rent), millions on Reno Air and total route elimination, Billions on TWA at the height of the business cycle (The CFO against the move is gone),and my favorite, $2.6 Billion in stock buybacks when the market was at it's highest just to bump up the price (AMR management is the biggest single shareholder). There is more I'm sure.

We will end up paying the price, but we aren't the ones who put the gun to the airline's head.

Blue & White
11th Apr 2003, 05:24
Actually I'm within the 2500 pilots that will be furloughed. But I couldn't in good faith vote for a TA that punished the pilot force for mistakes made by bad management.
About your qualifications, I'm sure you and your buddies are more qualified than myself. You see, I flew 20 years in the military (Air Force), the first half in C-130s and the last 7 years flying for the Vice-President in Air Force II (B-707). After retirement, I flew for a cargo airline for two years in a B747-400 until hired by American.
However, most of my flying experience was international to places like Russia, mainland China, South America and Africa to name a few spots.
I probably didn't have enough experience to fly at TWA. Now what exactly was your background????
You have a very good day.:D

Jack The Lad
11th Apr 2003, 05:31
Hey Lizzie

If you reckon you bunch are 22% worse off than you used to be, so much more my argument about how you lot have priced yourself outta your jobs!

Seems you and your management are both as guilty for your current woes. I rest my case, sorry.


11th Apr 2003, 05:58

Good post! You are correct.

11th Apr 2003, 06:55
Jack The Lad,
Read again.
My comments regarding the $12,000/mo (etc) apply ONLY to 'scheduled' USA aircarriers.
Others apply to contract crews...a very big difference.

The marketplace will decide...and always has, make no mistake.
Those who think otherwise will be severely disappointed.

11th Apr 2003, 08:26
If you reckon you bunch are 22% worse off than you used to be, so much more my argument about how you lot have priced yourself outta your jobs!


I'll use lots of little words if you promise to read slowly.

1. That 22% is a very simple number. Salaries at AA haven't wildly risen out of control. An AA narrow body pilot back then received a salary that had 22% more purchasing power than the same narrow body pilot in 2003. Seems to me the "free market" has had an effect in reducing AA pilots salaries.

Seems you and your management are both as guilty for your current woes. I rest my case, sorry.

Last payraise for AA pilots was 8/2000. Over the last 10 years we have averaged near 1% annually. Any village idiot would notice that can't compete with something like a $2.6 Billion stock buyback.

"both as guilty"? Sure Jack. Your village is looking for you.

11th Apr 2003, 08:48
Ah, B&W, you seem to find the need to qualify yourself. I hate to play a childish game, but here goes:

I have worked for many more airlines than you (6), been a military pilot also, flew corporate, flight instructed, sim instructed and I'm certain I have not only more total flying experience than your part-time, 20-hrs per month Herc or VIP 707 job, but thousands more jet hours as well. Think the B-747s the cat's meow, just cause you got a rating? I've got L-1011/DC-10/A-320/MD-80/DC-9, B-727/737/757/767 and military/corporate jets on my resume, too; Along with 4 jet type-ratings (all large transport category aircraft), I have more time in jets flying over the ocean than you have flying over land. Over a thousand oceanic crossings, and funny enough, experience flying to many of those garden spots you mentioned. I have flown into and out of every continent EXCEPT Antarctica, not to mention numerous global hot-spots.

About TWA, you may not have been qualified, my friend; we did oceanic navigation and international procedures the old-fashioned way---SAFELY. We did IRS/INS gross-error checks, FMS accuracy checks, position plots on more than just waypoints and other checks and cross-checks; flying to 4 continents (yes, even up to the time we were bought by that over-sized domestic airline) tends to give your pilots that kind of experience AND the wisdom not to ever be complacent.

AA, of course, has no accuracy checks, gross-error checks or other cross-checks before entering or while in MNPS airspace, nor do they do anything to verify they're on the proper track navigating to the next correct waypoint, except the required position reports at longitudenal waypoints. I also was amused to find out that your procedures included switching the navigation instruments to "true" from "magnetic" when entering MNPS. Why is that? Can't tell the difference between true heading and magnetic course when looking from your EHSI to your plotting chart? Never heard that "east is least..." phrase? These procedures are obviously designed for superior airmen like yourself, who obviously think highly of themselves and never make mistakes we normal humans make. I guess thats why AA is so 'revered' and well-respected in the airline industry as a 'leader'. But, the category you 'lead' in is'nt one other air carriers would care to challenge, mate.

Lastly, I'm sure you're one of those chaps that after he walks under those signs in AA crew rooms/mailrooms (or walks thru doors where the sign is posted) that claim "THROUGH THESE HALLS WALK THE GREATEST PILOTS IN THE WORLD" actually believes that to be the case!

You've certainly convinced me; I think you're the best!;)

Blue & White
11th Apr 2003, 09:44
Sounds like you've had a hard time holding a job. I don't know of many hot shot aviators like yourself that would have chosen TWA that late in the ball game. Especially with American, United and Delta hiring at the time. Oh I forgot, your application probably couldn't make the cut for the interview.
About hours, let's face it...........there's not a lot to taking off and shooting a straight-in ILS. I bet you also ate a lot of crew meals on those long international flights sitting on your f*t a*s not doing anything.
Gross obesity probably explains the numerous jobs and the short military career. Did you get kicked out of there also??? You mentioned Antarctica, I've been there (Operation Deep Freeze). If you want to know about it, I'll fill you in junior.:}

11th Apr 2003, 13:28
This thread is temporarily closed -- call it a "cooling off" period, if you like.

Update - 14 April -

After much consideration, it's obvious that this thread is unfortunately "too far gone" to be restarted as is. Therefore, this thread is permanently closed.

However, contributors should feel free to re-start a new thread on the same topic, as long as they, and other contributors, heed the following -

ANY personal insults (which, by definition, violate the terms of service to which all PPRuNe members have already agreed), will result in the closure of the thread, or the banning of the post writer, or any other punitive action deemed necessary by PPRuNe moderators.

Stick to the issues and you'll be fine.