Dam Buster re run

[tony draper]

Looks like a interesting program being trailed on channel four tonight.
Modern day RAF aircrews are going to re run the Dam Buster raid, from the clips they are using some kind of simulation.
According to the trailer they are going to be tasked to navigate the whole distance at 100 feet at night and to carry out the bomb runs.
Will keep a eye out for the time and date it is to be shown.
Should be good.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I got pulled into some of that, although my efforts won't get used.

Southampton University Aero Department's sim was reconfigured as the various stations of a Lanc then they used (I think) Cranwell Cadets to fulfil the various crew roles and try and work together as a team to fly the mission.

They also separately did a bit of low level in the Canadian Lanc.

My bit was working on dropping an actual weapon from a smaller aeroplane, but all the maths seemed to show that the scale of the thing needed a Wellington or larger to work at-all, so nothing economically feasible for a TV programme was going to work. Plus the TV company couldn't organise a drinks party in a yeast plant, so nothing they were supposed to do ever happened and we all gave up on them.

However, the bits organised by a major University, and the RAF - who between them can organise a drinks party, I understand went jolly well.

G

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Are they going to do it in the BBMF Lanc???

SSD

[tony draper]

I believe they did something similar a while back, I recal a documentry where a RAF crew tried navigating using only the methods available in WW2 , finding a given target and doing a dummy bomb run on that.

[Spot 4]

Are they going to do it in the BBMF Lanc???

My understanding is that the BBMF Lanc is not allowed into German airspace. This was certainly the case when a 50th anniversary rerun was requested by HM Govt. So the Red Arrows "transited" the Mohne coincidently!! instead.

[BEagle]

Hmm.....

16 May 1983 Phantom FGR2 XV 469 Self + F/L R*** 'LL Navex'....

40th anniversary of the Dambuster's raid - too good an opportunity to miss! Over at Gutersloh on Ex Bold Gauntlet ("Don't say 'corridor' chaps, whatever else you say...") and the No 2 went u/s. So, no LLOLPIs for us - it was a LL Navex around Das Reich instead. No pansy limits then; so off we went at 250-ish feet for a sightseeing tour - which, of course, had to include both the Eder and Moehne dams. At the Edersee it was round the castle, downhill, across the dam, full A/B.....that was fun - let's do it again! So we did! The the No 2 turned up so then we did it as a pair. Then went home via the Moehne.... Stn NavO at Gutersloh was mightily unimpressed - apparently there was something called a low flying handbook or Manuel de Vol a Bas Altitude which said that you weren't supposed to go anywhere near the Dams. Ah - but we were Air Defenders - don't know nuffink about such cr@p!

But the locals did wave from the castle. At least I think that they were waving....

[wub]

I had the pleasure of replicating the Mohne Dam raid in the Cherokee 140 from Gutersloh Flying Club one gorgeous still summer's evening. Still got the video...now where did I put it...

[Flap40]

Beagle, Why was the German low flying manual written in French??????

[BeauMan]

Closest I've come to replicating the raid was over Grafham Water in a C150, throttle full in (so only about 100Kts then) at about 500'. And I was still pooing meself. :eek:

BEagle - you're a legend! :D

[camaro]

Many moons ago, one of my first trips post PPL, on a local jolly from Netherthorpe.
Decided to go round northern side of Sheffield and then the dams run down Derwent/Ladybower as per real Dambusters practise sessions (not below 500 ft...but only just;) ).
Did it once, big grin....let's do that again. Tracking back up one side of the reservoir to have another go when a pair of Buccaneers come blasting through the valley at approx 250 ft doing what we had just done!:eek:

Definitely a "I learned about flying from that" trip!

[Kolibear]

I hate to be a kill-joy, but many many years ago, before I started flying, I was birdwatching (the other hobby) at Hanningfield Reservoir in Essex. A Cessna 150 dropped down and flew low over the water. Now in winter, as this was, Hanningfield is home to literally 10,000 of birds, and most of them took to the air as the aircraft flew over.

It was a spectacular sight, of which the pilot was probably blissfully ignorant as the birds were behind him, but if they'd all got up in front of him.................I'll leave it to your imagination.

So please, reservoirs are great landmarks, but from september to april, they are crammed full of birds and best left alone.

[Census boy]

Wouldn't mind a reinactment next month preferably with the Lanc but a couple of Tornadoes will do when I visit the Moehne and Eder dams as part of the Dambuster week holiday (Leger Travel) I'm booked on. Any fellow Ppruners on this trip? When I went to the aeronautical society lecture at Southampton University a month or so ago they said this TV programme would be shown at Easter.

[spekesoftly]

Monday 7/4/03 CH4 (UK) 21:00 - 22.35 BST - Dambusters

Concludes the following Monday

[BEagle]

Flap 40 - probably for the Canadians. Or rather the Quequettoise Canadians qui parle le strange noise on ecoute en Canada de temps en temps?

Ah - Ladybower. Went belting through there at 250 ft in a JP many years ago with my QFI. Seemed great fun - but when we checked the LFHB afterwards we found that there was actually a ban on flying throught the Derwent valley below 500 ft. Ooops.....

Catcleugh reservoir was another good tick to get. 250 ft and 350KIAS, over the dam then overbank to about 110 deg and pull right down the valley. In a Vulcan - such sport! But you had to stay below 2.35G or the wretched fatigue meter would record an incriminating 'J count'.

As for birds and reservoirs, I once flew with an ancient navigator who'd been on Lincolns. His claim to fame was being on a crew who made such a gross cock-up one dark night that instead of bombing some range in Germany, they'd taken out about 3 million ducks in a nature reserve. The Germans, understandably, were rather miffed. But the local restaurants had enought wild duck to keep them happy for months!

[tony draper]

I watched a documentry about the bomb itself a while back, can't remember if it was terrestrial or cable, I was supprised to learn that more than one type was developed a smaller anti ship version for the Mosquito I think , but I don't think it was ever used and the Germans also developed a bouncing bomb.
I get spoiled with documentires since I got cable.
;)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just as a passing thought, I don't suppose the aircraft was officially permitted in German airspace last time either.

G

[Inverted81]

Tony D

The bomb developed for the mossie was codenamed Highball. the major difference with this bomb apart from being a smaller scale, it retained its outer casing unlike the dam bombs that during testing lost the casing and the cylinder carried on bouncing.... the joys of science!!

;)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

It was a spectacular sight, of which the pilot was probably blissfully ignorant as the birds were behind him, but if they'd all got up in front of him.................I'll leave it to your imagination.

Years ago I used to fly our Chippy down Southport beach at a couple of feet above the sand. I used a high power setting and trimmed a tad nose-up so I had to hold it down - a sort of fail safe. Skimming along at speed like that was quite exhillerating, especially rolling into turns (I'd drift up to about 10 feet wheel-height before rolling on bank).

It was (and is) quite legal provided you stay 500 feet away from persons, vessels, structures etc and it teaches you about the difficulty of accurate manouvering at low level with no useful horizon. But you did have to watch out for the gulls. Engine failure wouldn't have been a problem - miles of firm sand to land on. But a birdsrike might not have had a happy outcome.

Haven't done it for years. Must be getting old ;~)

I remember seeing a film once where (taildragger) crop sparayers, for fun, would fly along a canal brushing the mains on the surface of the water leaving great spray trails behind each wheel. Now that DID look dodgy ;~))


SSD

[WebPilot]

I noticed the "book of the series" in WH Smith the other day - didn't have time to have more than a quick glance but from that and the TV trailer, I have a suspicion that this series is going to be a "reality reconstruction"... on the lines of The Trench or the one on National Service.

Most of the "flying" looks to have been done on simulators, or on NX611.

Could be good, could be bl**dy awful!

[wub]

Here's a link with some more info...

http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/notams03/damb0403.htm

[lamplighter]

WUP

The link doesn't work. One character too many????

[Ronbmy]

The link is not displaying correctly.Use this one.

http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/notams03/damb0403.htm

[jimgriff]

The stories below happened a while back as you can imagine.....

A lot of Mid Wales is a very low flying area (100') and I can remember going up to one of the local dams (Nant y Moch) and seeing the recovery crews pull out a Bucaneer and 2 JP's over the years. All crews banged out safe I'm glad to say. Now I wonder if they were "playing "dam busters????

I have also stood 1/2 way over the same dam and seen 2 Hunters coming straight at the dam and the jet exhaust actually blow the water into a high wall behind the a/c. In my estimation no more than 8' above the water.....WOW!!!

Also "attacking" the same dam in more recent times Ive seen F111's at about 20' over the water, F14's even lower....gulp!

[Dop]

The TV programme is on Monday 7th April on Channel 4 at 9 pm.

[AirportsEd]

I'm looking forward to seeing the two part show, but however good it is, it's a shame that the TV company's original plans didn't work out as it would have been a real treat for Lancaster fans in the UK. Can't remember the name of the Canadian TV company behind it all, but I do remember were also behind the recently successful 'Billy Elliot' film.
Anyway..about a year ago their idea was to bring the Canadian Lanc to the UK in order to fly it with PA474 in the making of this programme. Things initially looked promising, the CWH were happy with the Lanc coming to the UK , and the RCAF had agreed to provide a C-130 as an engineering support aircraft. At least one of the Canadian Lanc pilots travelled to visit BBMF at Coningsby to talk about the feasibility of it all, but to cut a long story short, the programme's budget was cut and the dream of two Lanc's flying together over the UK came to nothing. A great shame, as I'm sure the aircraft could of earned enough money from joint 'Dambuster' airshow appearances to justify its journey, even without the TV work...I was already dreaming of two Lanc's in formation, flying over NX611 at East Kirkby as it rolled down the runway with its tail up...Ah well, back to reality!

[Steepclimb]

Just watched the show, I have to admit I have mixed feelings. The crew were a mixed bunch for obvious TV and PC reasons and unless I am very much mistaken there were no actual navigators which seemed a curious omission considering the emphasis on navigation. I was intrigued by the comment that Lucy was a 'figher pilot waiting for a transfer to flight refueling aircraft' Eh? I thought most 'fighter pilots' would rather shoot themselves than transfer to heavies. I wonder what the real story is?

I was a bit disappointed by the 'set'. It did rather resemble a theatre set which can't really have added to the authenticity. Plus the fact that they were wearing modern flight suits. Within the limitations of budget I would have preferred a more enclosed fuselage, authentic flight gear with all the bulkiness that entailed. Cold air blown into the fuselage and the sound of four merlins with added vibration would make it a real test. As it is the gunners are just sitting on the floor with wooden guns in an unrealistic set in some room with flashing lights and cameras.

Which begs the question. What is the point of this programme?
To prove that young people nowdays can do just as well as the wartime generation. Or prove they can't. Or just to show how tough it was? But if that was the case why not more authenticity? As a tribute to the Dambusters themselves or Bomber Command as a whole? Probably.

I'll watch the next programme with interest.

[Inverted81]

I agree, the set left a lot to be desired..... completely open with tube lighting and small flat screen monitors... really realistic :rolleyes: i'm sure they could have done better! I saw the comment as well about (lucy?) being a fighter pilot waiting for a transfer v.strange!
It was good however, that they took some of them to canada to fly the lanc... how envious, its not that often you see a lanc flying in the twilight let alone getting the chance to fly it!! :}

We'll see how they do next week.... any bets??? i give em 10-1

:cool: :D ;) :) :p

c

[pulse1]

If they had brought the Canadian Lanc over they could have shown us what it was like to fly at 30' and have another Lanc overtake below - as described by the real Dambuster F/E Mr Drayton.:eek:

[CamelPilot]

I think you might find, but I will check, that Ray Grayston said it was 60' with a Lanc going underneath. 30' and one under might be a tad too much to take.

The stated height of the Lanc with the gear down I presume, is 26' 6ins (6.25m).

Not much margin for error!!

[WebPilot]

Some of the posts above sum up my feelings about this show.

While there were some interesting parts, notably the contributions from the veterans, the reconstruction part I found trivial and patronising. Without any clues to the selection process used, it seemed to me to owe more to modern mores and PC to have a female captain. Lucy did not make much impression as a "natural leader", which makes me wonder why she was selected, if not for "TV reasons".

The point regards "fighter pilot about to turn to heavies" I think owes more to "spin", (Spin as in New Labour, not aeros!). The crew have not gone beyond FTS - they were shown "waiting for posting" at Cranwell and the point was made early on about the reasoning behind using crew straight out of training. I also noticed one of the guys was wearing a shirt under his flight suit with "FTS" on it. So, it's fair to say Lucy is no "fighter pilot". The point was also made about the turning circle of the Lanc being so much larger than the "small aircraft and little jets she is used to". I would guess that she was chopped from the fast jet stream.

Ultimately however, this experiment is meaningless in much the same way as "The Trench" was. However realistically (or not!) things are recreated, what is really nothing more than yet another reality show cannot in any way recreate the feeling of not knowing whether you would see another dawn. That is vital to understanding what the guys of 617 and the RAF during the 1939-45 show did - without that you're just playing soldiers.

While this show might prove that today's generation are equally capable of navigating to the target using old methods and they could drop an Upkeep on target (Cynical me - any bets on them failing to do this?!), that will be all it can do.

[Abbeville]

'Spin recovery' action required?

Excuse awful pun:p

Shame as there has been some quite good stuff coming out of late.

Given the OTT PC of the programme I half expected there to be a dawg called Honky trotting around:yuk:

[WebPilot]

Yes, I noticed that although there was a long shot out of the squadron offices of ******'s grave and a film clip of him trotting along behind GG on his bike, his name was studiously avoided.

Still, look on the bright side. If programmes like this, however laughable, keep the heroism of the RAF and its history in the public eye then it's not all bad.

-----------

Oh Hell, even here you can't use the poor dog's name! Aaaarrggh!

[Inverted81]

Is Scampton still operational???? I thought i heard that it closed, hence why the reds relocated to Cranwell for a short time, (i remember them flying past the window whilst i was having my medical for an FS at Cranwell) Not a bad start to the day!!

C :O

[WebPilot]

Scampton did close and go onto Care & Maintainance for a couple of years. The Arrows are back there now though although various other bits of the site are leased out - Old Machine Flying Co have some of their collection in one of the aircraft sheds there.

http://www.raf-waddington.com/specials/scampton.htm

[QDMQDMQDM]

Ultimately however, this experiment is meaningless in much the same way as "The Trench" was. However realistically (or not!) things are recreated, what is really nothing more than yet another reality show cannot in any way recreate the feeling of not knowing whether you would see another dawn. That is vital to understanding what the guys of 617 and the RAF during the 1939-45 show did - without that you're just playing soldiers.

This is television, designed for a mass audience of millions of people, not the incredibly expert, minute number of people who frequent this board. Of course it is going to be showy, inaccurate and unsatisfactory for anyone with an in depth understanding of the subject. It is unrealistic to think it could ever be otherwise.

QDM

[FNG]

Obviously, a full motion simulator would have cost zillions and was out of the question, but they could perhaps have added loud noise and (if possible) some vibration, and/or some force feedback on the controls. Wearing period clothes, mae wests etc would have been a good idea also (perhaps they do in the next episode). I think that it's a bit harsh to make adverse comments about the crew: each of them, including the pilot, has passed the rigorous selection criteria for military aircrew, which I certainly haven't, and I suspect that some of the other posters haven't either.

PS: just seen QDM's post and tend to agree with it.

[wub]

FNG:

"Huge speakers, with industrial-sized sub-woofers, were positioned to amplify the realistic sound of the four Merlin engines from the simulator into a roar with enough power to make the whole set-up shake!"

Taken from the Just Flight Press release at :

http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=...03/damb0403.htm

I can't get this link to reproduce in full for some reason, just cut and paste.

[FNG]

Perhaps the noise in the simulator has been edited down somewhat to make the footage intelligible, as it must have been for the sequences filmed in the airborne Lancaster.

[BEagle]

The first few minutes of the programme had me worrying that it would be full of cheapo 'MSFlightsim' (or whatever that spotters' toy is called) graphics. But it improved considerably as time went by....

Personally, I thought that there was a lot of very good CRM being displayed - particularly by the quietly assertive 'captain'. I'm sure that she'll be very welcome on whichever AAR squadron she's being 'transferred' to.... But I've only got 1 more day at work before my 120 days of leave starts, so if she's destined for VC10s - good luck Lucy! Shame I won't get to meet you!

Have just obtained a VHS copy of 'The Dam Busters'. Glad to say that Nig.ger is called by his correct name; in fact, in his first scene, after Richard Todd's first line of "Rad. shutters....AUTO", the n-word (Nig.ger) is used about 6 times in 20 seconds!

[forget]

I thought all Lancasters were single pilot. How come the Canadian machine is dual? Was this a special for Candian SAR?

[QDMQDMQDM]

Personally, I thought that there was a lot of very good CRM being displayed - particularly by the quietly assertive 'captain'.

Yes, I thought she inspired a lot of confidence. Good luck to her.

QDM

[MightyGem]

All the wartime Lancasters were single pilot. Both the Canadian and the BBMF Lancasters are fitted with dual controls.

[Megaton]

Webpilot,

I wouldn't believe all you read on the RAF Waddington website. Scampton was not parented by Waddington and OC RAFAT is not the "effective station commander"; Wg Cdr RAFAT would be most disgruntled to learn that he was bypassed in the chain of command! Museum is run by a FS from RAFAT but apart from that all the info on the Waddington website is 100% spot on.

In addition to the Hunter Aircraft Co, Vosper Thorneycroft Aerospace lease Hangar 1 for Tucano maintenance.

[SPIT]

Hi
Re the closure of RAF SCAMPTON a few years ago,I was told that before it went into Care and Maint the grave of "******" the dog was opened up and the remains were re-interned at another RAFv site ???? :
:confused: :confused:
Did anyone else hear this or was it just a figment of my mind caused by alcohol:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

There was a memorial site outside 617's hangar at Scampton to 'Nig ger', referred to as 'Nig ger's grave'. But whether the real black Labrador was buried beneath is unlikely.....

It was a JP's secondary duty to look after Nig ger's Grave - weren't you the lucky one, Specaircrew? Whilst we of the rather more senior and infinitely superior 35 Sqn used to pee on Nig ger's Grave when you weren't looking!

[B767300ER]

Read a great book recently entitled "Beyond the Dams to the Tirpitz" , in paperback. Great read. As I recall, it was the same No.617 Squadron that carried out that raid, in a Norwegian fjord, back in late '43/early '44.

Did I hear you say RAF Lancs were single-pilot and RCAF Lancs were 2-pilot? Interesting.

What were RAF Stirlings and Halifaxes? I assume 2-pilot.

Cheers...

[Random UAS Stude]

From what I understand, the BBMF Lanc was converted to to dual controls when it was brought back to flying conditions in the sixties, as the RAF operate it with pilot and co-pilot (much safer-especially in a display environment). I believe CWH copied this arrange ment when restoring their Lanc in the eighties.

As I say, I THINK this is how it came about, but feel free to correct me.

[LowNSlow]

B767 both the Halibag and the whirling Stirling were single pilot as was the Lanc in normal configuration.

Did anybody else find the dance music in the background both annoying and inappropriate? I do like dance music when I'm dancing like nobody's watching but as background to a Dambusters recreation, c'mon chaps, Glen Miller would have worked better.

[etsd0001]

I just watched the final part of the programme and I think they could have improved the experience in a couple of ways.

1. Make the crew fly the sim in full wartime flying kit with the a/c suitably cooled to a temp somewhere near what was experienced on the night. (Why did they make the a/c see through? With todays mini-cams they could have skinned it)

and

2. They could have put some feel into the flying controls. Lucy manouvring the 'a/c' as if she was using a toddlers toy steering wheel.

[astir 8]

Ignoring the weak parts of the modern "re run" the programme did bring home the incredible flying feats involved in the dams raid, as well as Barnes Wallis' technology.

Doing 200 knots at 60 feet in the dark scares me silly just thinking about it,
never mind diving over steep terrain to get there and then having to pull up to miss a 1000' hill afterwards.

What could the effects on handling been of having 5 tons of bomb rotating at 500 rpm on the aircraft?

And it all brought home the huge price paid in aircrew losses, not only in the dams raid, but afterwards too.

[etsd0001]

It would have been interesting to see how Lucy (or anyone else) would have managed manouvering over the steep terrain with some proper feel in the controls.

[corsair]

I thought the second episode was the better of the two. It concentrated more on the historical aspects of the raid and less on the re enactment which was to the benefit of the programme.

Actually that re enactment then came into it's own when it highlighted some of the real difficulties the crews faced at the time. I also thought the Navigator played a blinder the whole thing seem to revolve around him in the end. Lucy the pilot did well considering the obvious limitations of the simulator, actually it was more a procedures trainer than a simulator.

The visit of Lucy to a Lanc to see Lettice Curtis while interesting, it seemed to me it served only as a kind of justification in TV terms for Lucy's role as Captain. When is the media going to lose the novelty factor of women pilots????? But in the end I believe it was fair enough to include women in the crew. Women are flying combat missions in a war as I write this. Things have moved on since 1943. I'm not ignoring the fact of female Russian combat pilots in WW2.

I thought the re enactment of the Sorpe attack was a good idea. The main factor at the Mohne dam was the flak which could not be accurately recreated. Wheras the attack simulated placed a premium on the flying skill of the pilot who came up trumps in the end.

In the end I enjoyed it. I found the part where they visited Scampton and the actual briefing room where the raid was introduced to the crews particularly evocative. Will that room be preserved I wonder? It really ought to be.

[wub]

I agree that the second programme was the more interesting, although I got a bit lost with the boffin from Qinetiq who seemed to prove that dropping a bomb made a splash and his rather laboured explanation of how backspin would keep the bomb against the dam wall.

I was pleased to see that some of the crew had reservations about the fidelity of the exercise, one thought it might be "silly" but they certainly seemed to learn quite a bit from the exercise.

One small point; considering the effort put in to accurately recreating the event, they slipped in a shot of a Manchester when they were talking about 617 departing Scampton at tree top height on the night of the raid. :8

[Inverted81]

i saw that shot too... the extra fin stuck out like a sore thumb:O the second program was by far the best with aspects explained that i have never seen before. the explanation of how the backspin principle had four advantages was particularly interesting. i'd only ever knew about the effect of hugging the dam as it sank, never the shallow angle of bounce, the lessining of the initial impact on the water and the other i forget at the mo....
The courage of Les knight as well was otstanding, letting the crew bail out before flying on himself. I am sure however, any of the crews throught the history of the RAF to this day would do the same thing.
All credit to the new crew, if the programme has made just one more person understand the significance of this raid and indeed the importance of flight in this the centenery year, it can only be a good thing!!! :E :cool: :D :O :)

[kopbhoy2]

I only saw the second prgramme but I have to say I really enjoyed it. While I was already somewhat familiar with the story of the original Dambusters the historical & technical information really highlighted what a difficult, daring and ultimately important mission it actually was.

[Mr_Grubby]

If you are in Woodhall Spa, Lincs. visiting the Dambusters Memorial in the village suggest you make a visit to the Petwood Hotel. It can be found on the Horncastle road out of Woodhall on the left hand side. During WW2 it was the 617 Sqd. Officers Mess. Inside, they have a Squadron Bar dedicated to 617 Sqd. It is not always open but if you ask on reception somebody will open it for you and you can look at all the exhibits. It is a small museum. Above the bar is a branch of a pine tree collected by a 617 Lancaster after returning from the raid on the Tirpitz. ( I think ) Although my parents live in Woodhall Spa and I visit regularly, I am ashamed to say it is several years since I visited the Squadron Bar. Last time I was there, there were the remains of a bouncing bomb in the hotel gardens. Well worth a visit. Food and ale good too !!

Mr G.

[wub]

Seconded Mr G, an interesting hotel to stay in - if a little dusty. Mrs Wub and I noticed that the wooden table in our room needed a polish so we drew a couple of dog's paw prints and wrote
'Ni gg er was here' in the dust, when we left :E

[rightbank]

The Dambusters film was repeated last saturday on Ch4. Interesting to see that they have at last stopped trying to rewrite history and the "N" word was left in uncensored.

[Kolibear]

I celebrated my 40th birthday in The Petwood Hotel.................

(Hows that for useless info!)

I was a bit confused by the chap firing scale models of the bomb at '100's of mph', surely if you scale the size of the bomb down, you have to scale the impact velocity down too?

[Inverted81]

Kolibear,
That is correct, however, i don't remember them spinning the bomb on the scaled down setup... which could mean 2 things a) they would have to fire it at an even slower speed to mimic the cushioning of the spinning or b) would firing at a high velocity make the bounce shallower hence less impact?? any physicists out there????????????????????????????? A level physics hasn't really helped me!! C :O


Colleague gave a ray of light..... the water has a specific surface tension/viscosity, if you scale the system down by say 25% that would mean that water would effectively become 400X more "sticky" hence the projectile would have to be fired at 400X the actual speed to counteract the viscosity of the water.... any better??:confused: :confused: :confused:

[ozplane]

I've read this thread back to front and I was going to say that I wouldn't fancy the approach to the Eder dam on a fine day with CAVOK in a microlight. And then Beagle says he did it in a jet. I've visited the site by car with a relation who flew B-24s and he didn't put it at the top of his "must do" list.
Good to see 617 Sqdn are back from the Gulf with no losses. At least the RAF are allowed to keep some traditions going.

[B767300ER]

What does 617 Squadron fly now?

Where are the based? (if you can say)

Glad they returned home safe!

[wub]

B767300ER:

617 flies Panavia Tornado GR4s from RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/raflossiemouth/index2.html

[B767300ER]

From Lancs to jet fighter-bombers!

What a history. Good show in the Iraqi desert.

The Group Captain at RAF Lossiemouth looks quite young.

[B767300ER]

After all this talk of the Dams Raid, I had to find out more.

Here in LA, of all places, I found a special "FlyPast" issue entitled "Bomber Command" , with articles relating to the Dams Raid and the "Dambusters Weekend" that somebody talked about earlier. It also shows all the old RAF Bomber Command airfields, which is fascinating; especially the photos from today. It has an article with 2-3 photos of Guy Gibson's dog, and his grave. Had no idea the poor ****** was killed by a car while GG was out on the raid. How tragic.

I must get to Canada and the UK to see the last 2 flying Lancasters. I can imagine what pride you all must have at seeing such a glorious and powerful British-built bomber flypast at low-level. I had my photo taken next to the one at Hendon, when I was 11 years old. My Dad was very amused to see the caption on "S- Sugar"s fuselage that said "No enemy plane will fly over the Reich territory"---atributed to Herman Goering, what with 100+ bombing runs painted on the nose!

[etsd0001]

****** was killed the night prior to the raid

(Why does ****** default to asterisks? The name is not being used in a derogatary manner. This is PC gone mad)

[B767300ER]

Actually, I used the word 'b-u-g-g-e-r' , not the N-word.

Oh, well; still its a tragedy his dog was killed after being hit by a car.

Any chance I could get a VHS tape set of the Dambusters program from Ch.4?

Can't believe they used PC pilots, when historically we all know those pilots were white males. That was then, this is now; they should be historically accurate. PC be damned.

[Random UAS Stude]

I believe the programme was released on DVD and VHS yesterday, along with the 1954 film on DVD on the 12th May.

Amazon.co.uk seems to have it available but not Amazon.com - you could try getting it shipped over from the UK

[BEagle]

I recently bought a VHS PAL copy of The Dam Busters direct from amazon.co.uk . It is a copy of the original film and Nig ger's real name is used throughout.

Not sure whether there is a DVD version yet.

Regarding the PC-nanny naughty word filter, try typing the name of a town in Linconshire beginning in 'Scun' and ending in 'thorpe'. If you type it properly, the nanny changes it. 'Scun thorpe' is OK - but 'S****horpe' isn't! See what I mean?

EDIT: Have just checked - the DVD (Region 2) is due to be released on 12 May 03. Not sure of the format though. And I bought it on VHS! ****** it - oops, I mean bug ger it!

[InFinRetirement]

B767300ER

If you are keen to get the DVD of the original film "Dambusters", and the region is not a problem for you I would be happy to arrange it. I am sure BEags has done is homework, which means I can order it. You can e-mail me and discuss the details.

I have just bought a DVD/CD-ROM, which is all regions, and just sitting quietly watching a film is great. (When I get time!)

IFR

[FNG]

Re the pilot being a woman. This was not a re-enactment of the event, but an experiment to see if modern military aircrew could emulate the achievements of their forbears, whilst also demonstrating what major feats the original flights were. On this basis, including a woman who has earned RAF wings seemed fine to me.

[tony draper]

Slightly off topic, somebody posted this wav file of a Lanc crew over Berlin on another website,
Apologies if it has been posted beflore now.

http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav

[Evening Star]

Frustratingly missed the second part. That after missing most of the first part because my little bro called about something important :sad:. Such is life :rolleyes:. However, got the book. Quite an interesting read.

Re comments about PC selection of woman pilot, understand from book that her selection was because of most multi-engine experience from group. Right man for the job, even if it is a woman?

Comely wench as well ;).

Other woman on crew apparently an ex-copper. Looked a mean 'un who would have no qualms about dropping bombs anywhere :eek:.

Slightly changing subject, my masters dissertation was about Derwent/Ladybower infrastructure. Managed to get a comment in about Derwent being used for practice by the Dambusters. Unfortunately, the Prof, an Irishman, was not impressed. Some people have no soul.

[B767300ER]

Thanks, IFR and BritishEagle. I will try and order it, although it must be NTSC for us Yanks.

A funny story: I went to some of the local used bookshops here in LA to sell 10-12 paperbacks (mostly war novels), and finally got about $20 for them at a small place. While looking through their selections, I came across "books on tape", which had most of the popular current bestsellers available. Then, I saw an older, black and white, 2-tape set of THE DAMBUSTERS ! Book-on-tape read by the chap who starred as Guy Gibson in the original film. So far, I've listened to 1 side of 4, and its exceptional! Fancy me finding that exact title; I do own the paperback book, published by Bantam War Novels, but its in my storage unit somewhere, buried most likely.

Had no idea they planned a large "Victory" bomber to originally carry the bomb, as they thought the Lancs were too small.

[wub]

Evening Star

The programmes are being re-run on Discovery Channel on satellite sometime soon

[Dop]

Just been reading the book based on this TV programme. Very good. I think it concentrates much more on the history than the programme did. Worth looking into.

[ChrisVJ]

Evening Star, Does that mean you are 2-10-0 ?

Sorry, a bit off topic.

[amanoffewwords]

The only surviving Lancaster in the UK is doing a fly past this Saturday 17th May at Brooklands museum (http://www.brooklandsmuseum.com/) .

This coincides with the opening of a new exhibition about the Dambusters.

I'd like to go but Mrs Words has me down for babysitting :(

Apologies if I am repeating a previous post - I did a quick scan but couldn't see it mentioned elsewhere

amofw

[Inverted81]

heres the BBC news link..... ENJOY



:O :cool: :D

[DamienB]

amanoffewwords - the Bomber is having quite a tour on Saturday, with flypasts elsewhere too including at RAF Scampton later in the afternoon. They're having a Dambusters Day there with tour of the base museum and a talk - but I think it's ticket only and they've all gone already.

I'm stuck with going to a mate's wedding so shall just have to get falling down drunk and toast their memory at some point.

Edit - Lanc's Saturday itinerary courtesy of 'fluffy' of the BBMF on another board:

Waddington 14:25
Eyebrook Res 14:45
Bletchley Park 15:00
Brands Hatch 15:30
Herne Bay 16:00
Weybridge 16:25
Scampton 17:15

Eyebrook Reservoir flypast looks to be a good one:

"The Lanc will come over Rutland water and exit at the western end leading it into the res from the north east ,it will then straighten, to go over the dam. The Lanc will be then followed the Spit & Hurri and then they should do a further 3 passes"

[Iron City]

AMOFW

I suppose there is no chance of doing "active babysitting" by motorcar that just happens to be at one or more of the venues mentioned?

Friend and I used to babysit his daughter and keep our night currency in a PA-28 at the same time. She would sit in her safety seat in back and half the time went to sleep by the third missed approach.

[amanoffewwords]

Iron City, alas Mrs Words is taking the wheels, and I'm left with my motorbike. Can't really put an 18 month old baby in my top box, can I? Or can I? :E

And before anyone from social services are despatched let me emphasize that I was joking, ok!

Anyway, I've downloaded the consolation prize from the BBMF (http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/displaydates.html) website - a simple yet impressive screensaver which includes loads of good quality pics of the Lancaster, Spitfire, Hurricane etc..

And judging by their calendar of events there are plenty of other opportunities to see them in action, hopefully with better weather than we are having currently.

Cheers

[FJJP]

PC is not that new. Here's an interesting snippet from the Sqn history, circa 1981. When the Tornado GR was introduced into RAF service it was decided that the first Sqn was to be 617, disbanding as a Vulcan Sqn and re-forming the next day as 617 (Tornado). The OC (designate) even visited the Sqn to discuss various aspects of the transition.

One of the things he asked about was aircraft markings, and although he liked the stylised 'diamond' representation of the Dams Raid worn by the Vulcan on the fin, he felt that he wanted something new for his aircraft. It eventually turned out as the 3 lightning flashes - one each side of the roundel and one on top of the fin.

Then the decision was taken to base the first Tornado Sqns in Germany. Shock! Horror! You can't base 617 Sqn in Germany! It would offend the sensibilities of the Germans! Just think of the damage 617 sqn did during the war - the Germans would be highly resentful! So the first Tornado Sqn was 9 Sqn, and 617's reformation had to wait until Marham was up and running.

The fact that the Tornado sqns based in Germany did vastly more damage to Germany during the war seems to have escaped the PC brigade...

[Evening Star]

> Evening Star, Does that mean you are 2-10-0 ?

Exactly right, although I find it does not slow me down ;).

[Iron City]

Words: Wouldn't even think about it with a motorbike

Am envious of your geographic advantage in beingsignificantly closer than in USA. Though I doubt if I could have afforded a UK CAA pilot's license.