101st Cat 5 two Apaches

[ORAC]

The embedded correspondent with the 101st Airborne just reported that they've Cat 5'd two of their Apaches during their first offensive mission. Both losses due to dynamic rollover whilst landing in brown out conditions. Both crews OK, just one with a broken leg.

Just hope they've got a lot of attrition spares....

[SASless]

ORAC.....one must fly them in order to break them....keeping them all nice and shiny in a warehouse doesn't help the troops on the ground facing the bad guys. I am sure Mr. Hughes can build two more of them in a couple of weeks.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SAS.......hope your body armour is servicable:D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SASless]

ABIW....wish I could participate....but being old...fat..deaf and blind.....I don't think they would have me. If they did....they surely wouldn't put others at risk by giving me access to large caliber weapons. However....if they need a broken down old Chinook driver who is current on NVG's and Aerial gunnery....."Hands waving in the air!" "Whistling sounds emananting from oral orifices!" Alas, I think I shall be forced to fight this one from my lounge with a beer in one hand and the remote trigger in the other. Life can be so unfair at times.

[West Coast]

I'm getting a visual on all that..oh dear.

[moggie]

SASLess - Mr Boeing builds them now (but they can have two of ours - we have no-one to fly them!)

[SASless]

The UK Apache incorporates a series of enhancements that make it more effective in combat, and more survivable, deployable and maintainable in the field. The UK Apache’s fire control radar and advanced avionics suite give combat pilots the ability to rapidly detect, classify, prioritize and engage stationary or moving enemy targets at standoff ranges in nearly all weather environments.

The UK Apache’s ability to communicate digitally with other aircraft and ground forces, and to share that information almost instantly, also gives it a significant warfighting advantage over current combat helicopters. With the advanced Longbow fire control radar, UK Apache crews can scan the battlefield in real time, classify and prioritize multiple threats, and digitally share this battlefield information with other next-generation Apaches and other friendly forces.

Does this mean it will be sometime in the next generation of Troops that these Apaches will be deployed against an armed enemy? Lessee....if my math is right....the order was for 66 of the machines (more or less)....maybe you could lease us a few of those such as we lease you the C-17. That way, the machines get used.

[john du'pruyting]

Ah sasless, you seem like a trusting soul.....would you like to buy a used motorcycle?

[mutleyfour]

SASless, you are quite correct with regard to the UK AH, however it is worth noting that we are only now beginning delivery of the first fully equipped models, as up until recently we only had the US D model. (First 12 delivered I think)

The first of those aircraft (UK Spec)are busy with trials etc and will begin to arrive at our front line units later this year.

As on a previous thread, there are a small number of narrow minded folk in here that believe all they here in the press! We have enough pilots, capable groundcrew and REME maintainers in place to man this machine.

We have bought a very good machine from yourselves and re configured and updated it with a result that is undoubtedly a world beater.

I for one look forward to it entering full time service and supporting our troops both at home and abroad!

bring it on!

[higthepig]

Mutleyfour
we've got them and you can't have them back!

[Gen. Bombdabastards]

SASless,
our new Apache may have all the goochi kit that you listed, but will it stop dynamic rollover?

[SASless]

The Dynamic Rollover report is bunk....usual story on reporting lately....caught just a brief snippet on the news this morning...seems one had mechanical problems.....and the weather was described as being a bit ugly. Seems even the Apache cannot operate in "all" weathers.

Now if I read the posts right....enough crews....old tech "D" models....enough spares....they being kept for home defense or something?

[mutleyfour]

No, bad timing is the reason....the first conversion is due to satrt later this year!

[Lu Zuckerman]

The US Army has its’ head in the sand (or, up their butts). If they had done any advanced thinking they would have a prepared landing spot for each of the helicopters. The spot could have been prepared by placing a mat of pierced steel planking on the desert floor. There would have been some sand disturbed by the rotor wash but not enough to create a brown-out serious enough for the pilots to lose spatial orientation.

:rolleyes:

[SASless]

Lu.....in a static situation your idea holds some merit....in a fluid and rapidly moving campaign such as they are engaged in now....that just doesn't work. Compound the situation by one of the worst sand storms in years....darkness.....flat featureless terrain....and that makes for some very hard flying. Combine that with the use of the monocular display.....and the eyeball sitting 12-13 feet in front of the pilot.....I can see where it can get pretty sporty. In a few weeks....the pilots will re-learn the lessons of prior operations in the desert...and the accident rate will drop markedly. Tactics will also improve.....as they adapt to the local situation just as they had to change in Afghanistan. But all that takes some time....be patient.

[Jeep]

Flying in the desert is not easy, particularly at night. With a good Rad alt warning device (with audio) it is possible to fly low and fast over a relatively flat desert. Every landing and take-off has a risk associated with it. Brown out, in darkness requires a lot of skill. Having attempted a few myself, I can say that I never enjoyed one, felt comfortable attempting one, or didnt breathe out with relief after each one.

One good tip I did learn, is to land with the wind about 30 deg off the right side. You get the benefit of the wind for landing, and when you open your door/canopy you get the breeze for cooling.

[SASless]

Jeep...

I found landing in very dusty conditions....talcum powder like dust generated by the movement of tracked vehicles within a small area....an approach to the ground with a bit of forward movement with no effort to hover seemed to work well. The last bit was more instrument flying and blind faith than anything. Takeoffs...particularly if hooking up to a sling load could get sporty in a hurry. We used unmovable markers....filled sandbags...ammo cans filled with dirt....vehicles....anything to maintain a visual reference....then once hooked....get the slings tight...max power....and perform an Instrument Takeoff....if anything at all went weird....off went the load...and hope you could recover out of the dust cloud. Chinook flying had its moments. Landing into wind....and very close attention to technique usually allowed for some forward visiblilty....even if only down thru the chin bubbles. Dropping slingloads was done with speed rather than finesse as the criteria. We would allow the load to touch....let the aircraft sink a bit...then it was release and go away for a regular landing as described above. I have some photos of dusty ops from Vietnam....the dust clouds are sometimes 300 feet high and could be seen for miles.

[mutleyfour]

I agree SASless, used to work well in fine sand, especially when running on with about 10 knots or so. It also decreases the dust plume which gives away your position..important when operating in hostile territory. The consequence of this will also decrease wear to the engine/s! as you can dump the lever as soon as skids touch which reduces the dreaded downwash! Which in turn leads to lesser amounts of circulating sand...