FAA getting fed up with JAA intransigence

[FAAJAA]

Just had lunch with a fairly senior FAA bloke who was telling me the FAA is planning to make it a lot harder for JAA training to be conducted in the US unless the JAA relaxes it's requirements to convert. Right now, the FAA will convert any ICAO PPL to an FAA one, and expects reciprocity. Apparenently, negotiaions have broken down between the two.
Also, the FAA is thinking of changing the wording in 61.87 to prevent JAA instructors in the US training a student, then fobbing them off to an FAA instructor for solo and solo X-C privledges.
Might be rather interesting if an NPR comes out on the subject...

[rolling circle]

Maybe it's about time the FAA realised that there's a new kid on the block and, all of a sudden, the US is a pretty second rate organisation. At least Boeing seems to have accepted that where Airbus leads, they will follow.

[Low_and_Slow]

Not sure how they could do this. I doubt it would be hard for the JAA instuctors to get an FAA instructor certificate, and then they can do whatever training they like (just have the student keep 2 logbooks--one with the instructor's FAA cert #, and one with the JAA cert # on the entries)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Good. At long last British General Aviation and the Flying Schools/Clubs of the nation will stop being undermined by Uncle Sam and his incredibly cheap petroleum.

Let them choke on their own filthy air pollution I say. The FAA will have to adjust to the fact they are no longer the de facto arbitars of all thing aviation.

But hang on! I thought the US was desperately worrried about the pilot shortage and they even have Senator John McCain running a committe to look at the problem. Locking the door more firmly seems a bad idea...

WWW

[Flyingfarouk]

It is time for you english to understand that you not rule the world anymore.
JAA need a lot of imrovement to be good. I am last to say i like america but there are many things for JAA to learn from FAA.

[neil armstrong]

It's always nice dealing with the FAA ,that is if your used to dealing with the CAA orany other JAA organisation.
I have flown in lots of county's in the world,mostly of my work.
But if i want to fly for fun i always go to the USA because it's still enjoyable overthere.
I have tried Europe but it's to much hassel.

Neil

[exaac]

All european licensed instructors working at WMU have all got FAA licenses and instructor ratings anyway. It is a requirement to instruct on a US registered aircraft anyway regardless what licence is sought after.I can not see the FAA ever making it harder for them to operate there, in fact the opposite would be the case, they have already had a lot of political support when the JAR tryed to insist on all training in Europe. One thing the yanks are good at is ensuring that the money always flows in their direction and if a trade sanction or a general dummy spit is reguired well so be it. Sounds like they are just trying to negotiate some extras which they will never get with the usual negotiating style of threats.

[Bear Cub]

Considering the forum that we are currently in, I'm saddened that the only comments are the International politics of FAA v. JAA (again) and nothing about the financial burden that may be imposed on those who CHOOSE to train in the USA.

Whilst in Florida I dropped in to Naples Air Center earlier this month - and a member of the UK CAA (from Battleship House) was there completing his PPL (after struggling to complete in the UK)...says something, doesn't it?

(Edit was for typo)

[This message has been edited by Bear Cub (edited 31 March 2001).]

[JJflyer]

Dissapointed to see this same crappy "my fists are bigger than yours" windup to start again.It seems that there are people that think that they are better than others only because they where trained in an other part of the world. Does not say a lot about the whole lot.

JJ

[BEagle]

I know that I've commented on this before; then my comments were mistakenly held as a general criticism of US PPL training. This was a misunderstanding;I was complaining at the specific level of so-called training given to several PPLs in the US who I'd subsequently been converting in the UK.

However, there seem to be several factors involved:

1. Fuel is much, much cheaper in the US.

2. GA is encouraged in the US; in the UK it is grudgingly tolerated if you're lucky!

3. The weather is more predictable in the US.

4. It is easier to set up business in the US.

5. Accommodation is cheap and plentiful in the US; in the UK only business people use hotels etc apart from holiday makers, because you can normally get from where you live to where you're going within one day virtually anywhere in the UK.

6. Aircraft used for training in the US have less-stringent A&E maintenance requirements than they do in the UK - and are cheaper to acquire in the first place.


Put all this together and it is easy for an unscrupulous school with a 'tame' examiner on the payroll to set up in business as a PPL farm and churn out 'instant PPL' pilots who really haven't been given adequate training and who have only passed the Skill Test by being examined by the tame examiner who is in the pocket of the PPL farm. Nothing to do with FAA/JAA politics, just market economics. It is obvious that if you can peddle your flying school as being able to provide a JAR-FCL PPL cheaper and quicker than it would be able to in the UK, then you're going to attract larger numbers of applicants. Now get greedy and employ cheap and dodgy instructors, cut down on your maintenance costs, get your students solo asap to struggle through the course with the minimum number of dual hours so that the 'instructor' can 'instruct' another poor $od. Pay your tame examiner by the Skill Test rather than give him/her a salary....it all adds up.

Pesonally, I can't understand why, if you can't take a UK driving licence test outside the UK, it should be acceptable to take a UK flying licence test outside the UK! I also think that there needs to be some convergence between the FAA and JAA; some of the JAA 'theoretical knowledge' requirements are simply barking, perhaps the FAA goes too far the other way. The only way the UK can compete in the current climate is to slash fuel duty and VAT for training flying. The National PPL will also aim to reduce costs; it is hoped that suitable caveats will be put in place which will prevent 'unscrupulous' foreign flight schools trying to train pilots for the NPPL. This will not be 'restrictive practice', but a safety initiative. All training organisations, FIs and FEs intending to teach for the NPPL will have to be approved by the NPPL governing body. So that nasty piece of work and his smart@r$e lawyers itching to sue can think again - you know who you are!!


[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 31 March 2001).]

[sd]

It's easy to see why the FAA are getting hacked off by JAA protectionism. They really must be sitting there wondering what the hell is going on amongst the JAA mameber States who can't even agree amongst themselves let alone the rest of the world!.
The fact of the matter is that the FAA are not some tin pot organisation who don't give a damn about standards or saftey! They are efficient, it's as simple as that! Now efficient is a word you can't use to describe CAA or JAA!
Beagle makes some very good points regarding why GA is a sucsess in the States and he is dead right.
If we had the weather , low fuel prices and a positive attitude to GA, there would be dozens of schools starting up here, many of them with the same failings as some the well known Florida cowboys.
To decry all US training and be even slightly surprised at the FAA's reaction to the farce that is JAA, I have to say is small minded. Sad cries of 'it's not fair' and 'we're not playing co's they've got it right and we've got it wrong' are all to common on this site.

The NPPL is fine, and as Beagle says kind of is on a parallel with not sitting your driving licence outside the UK. However, for those that wish to fly further than 100miles from home base, why shouldn't you be able sit your licence outside our tiny little island?
It's a big world out there..and that's what planes are for!

[BEagle]

...and before anyone decries my driving licence analogy, how mant Brits understand the logic of a 3-way or 4-way junction in the USA? Or why they put the traffic lights the far side of a light-controlled junction!

[Noggin]

FAAJAA.

The FAA do not convert a PPL as you put it, they issue a Restricted PPL on the basis of a JAA or other National PPL. IN the UK it is less onerous than that, you can quite simply fly on your foreign PPL no conversion required.

If a JAA licence holder wants an unrestricted FAA PPL then you have to take Tests, by the same token if a FAA PPL holder wants a JAA licence you also have to take tests, where is the difference. You do not have to convert a licence when you can continue to exercise the privileges of your national licence.

The major problems associated with the JAA are quite simple, underfunding by all States involved. A limited number of people trying to do a mamouth task with little support from the major players and in many cases, with inappropriate qualifications. Throw in a bit of nationalism, no a lot of nationalism, a few political ideals and you finish up with European aviation being run from a Post Office Box in Holland.

[herniair]

Talk about old axes to grind and big chips on..

Just a few questions

It would be unusual and obviously more expensive but do the FAA allow people to take their tests, with FAA examiners, outside the U.S. and, as this is the big issue, in Europe?

Also, as JAA examiners and schools training for JAA must be subject to exactly the same requirements and checked by the CAA etc., wherever they operate, why would all JAA training and tests in Florida or California be better/worse or easier/harder than those in Europe?

Are there no schools or 'clubs' with dodgy instructors and tame examiners in England, France, Italy, Spain etc.?

[ronchonner]

whatever they decide, whatever they do, they want our money!
the problem is not to get a FAA or JAA license but it s to get a job!right?
the problem come from the Immigartion(called INS in the USA)
If EU guys decide to go to USA to learn to fly, the INS should let them to work in the US.And same with US guys willing to fly and work in Europe.
I do nt mind if i see a US pilot flying for British airways, if we can fly for a US carrier.
anyway, it s always the same stories, i do nt count to much on these stupid politiciansI continue to fly and I will continue to make money because it s my job and i like it!!!

[Roadtrip]

By comparison with the US, the UK aviation industry is small. Why would the US allow unrestricted movement of pilot jobs to UK pilots? There'd be movement alright, but it'd all be westward. Very few US pilots would want to work in the UK, given the general higher cost of living and lower pay at majors.

It's not the US's fault that the cost of training is so high in the UK. Examine your own government policies and taxes.

Pilot training in reputable US schools is just fine. More practical and less theoretical than the UK, but we seem to be doing just fine. Maybe pilot licenses don't need to be gold plated to be effective?

Stop bleating about US aviation and square-away the UK training industry. I've always been able to tell where the good stuff is by which way the mass of people run -- and I don't see 'em running to the UK to get trained, or to work.

[This message has been edited by Roadtrip (edited 01 April 2001).]

[Sensible]

Having gained first hand experience of US training, before commenting further, those who claim that US training is second rate should try the FAA/IR in the Los Angeles basin. It is certainly an experience for me, I have never experienced such busy airspace. Certainly my PPL training in Class G airspace was not exactly adequate preparation for this! The UK IMC rating is like a holiday compared to the FAA/IR.

WWW. What exactly is your sum experience of flying in the USA?


[This message has been edited by Sensible (edited 01 April 2001).]

[rolling circle]

Going back to the original posting:

Also, the FAA is thinking of changing the wording in 61.87 to prevent JAA instructors in the US training a student, then fobbing them off to an FAA instructor for solo and solo X-C privledges.

The JAA have already solved this problem by banning FAA instructors from giving instruction for JAA licences and ratings unless they work at a school providing integrated ATPL training which is registered in, and has its main place of business in, a JAA Member State. So, unless you work for OAT, Lufthansa, Sabena, etc., you're going to need a JAA licence and instructor rating.

JAA instructors, on the other hand, will find no difficulty in obtaining FAA qualifications which will enable them to deal with the pre-solo/solo cross-country problem.

Having obtained the FAA Commercial, Instrument, CFI, CFII and ATP, I can confirm that each of the tests/exams is significantly easier than its European counterpart.

Sensible - Why not compare the PPL Skill Test with the ATP Skill Test, as a comparison its got about as much validity as comparing the UK IMC rating with any Instrument Rating.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sensible - I think you've just read my post with a pre-conceived notion of my views. I never said a word about the quality of US training.

I have advised many people to look at it very carefully as an options and for some peoples circumstances its the best choice.

HOWEVER> you have to realise that Uncle Sam is taking around 45% of the PPL training that would otherwise occur in the UK.

THAT fact keeps UK flying instructors out of work i.e. most Wannabes first job. GA is smaller therefore less well supported and more expensive etc etc. I want to see a vibrant GA community in the UK. Ending US PPL's will help this ideal greatly.

As for my experience of the US - none. Never been. Want to though.

I have converted several Brits who have done the US PPL and then come back to blighty to join the flying club. Their checkouts take circa 3-4 hours rather than 1. Every time. I also trained some guy who never got his PPL in the States even though they flew him for 70hrs!!!! They Never sent him solo even. They were taking him for a ride and his training was so abysmal that it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to de-programme his dangerous bad habits.

That said its all annecdotal and US safety records are comparable to ours.

WWW

[PanicButton]

The USA is General Aviations heaven. And we europeans need a big mussle on the JAA. We tend to get a bit cocky and stringient about everything. I'm not saying the FAA regulations and training are perfect but enough is enough.

[JimNich]

Its all a bonfire of vanities really, all this JAA/FAA stuff. The real crux, as always, is MONEY.

WWWs dream of protected market GA in the UK is fine but who can afford it? At the end of the day the US has a less stringent (and cheaper) system that works just fine. All this hoohaw about extra training for US PPLs is just pure snobbery. Get over it guys.

I've been to America numerous times (work and play) and you know, they're a lot like us. WWW, you should go, I can highly recommend it

[JJflyer]

Reason why US takes such a big chunk of all prospective PPL's in the whole of EU not just UK is simple.

THERE IS VIRTUALLY NO SUPPORT TO GA FROM EU!!!!!!!

Once JAA gets a grip of its regulations, fuel is cheaper, and taxes are lower things should get better.Then you have these bozos that move next to busy airports and next thing you know airport is being relocated beacuse of the noise sensitivity of the community... What a load of crap.

Those idiots sitting in Starsbourg and national governments have no clue that cost of flying and training is by far the biggest reason why wannabes from EU go elsewhere.

Until something is done about these things all this talk about who is better FAA or JAA is fruitless. Concentrate on the problem, try to figure how you can make life easier for GA.When I decided to do my training in US economics where the sole reason for this. I just could not get a loan big enough for BAE in scotland but my training eneded up costing about 1/3 of the cost in Scotland.

JJ

[Flare_you_fool!]

Remember the USA didn't set up it's GA flying and training industry to attract foreign students. They choose to come even the likes of BA, Sabena and Lufthansa.
Why because the governments of europe continue to abuse and neglect GA flying with high taxation and unreasonable user charges.
Private flying in a country the size of the USA is almost a necessity to get around from more remote areas. That's why it does not get abused in the USA. Hence a more liberal and open policy on taxation, noise abatement and user fees. When europe decides flying is not a luxury(never) and a necessity like in the US the systems may become more balanced.
Regards
FYF

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah, whatever. Fact is JAA is going to close down EU flying training in the US. Good news for every wannabe who serves any time as a flying instructor which is going to be most of those who don't get an airline sponsorship deal - something they don't have in the US.

No offense to Americans but they can shove their "free trade" arguements. I remember WW2 - how long it took for them to hear the bugle and how much money and land they extracted from the British in payment for their assistance in saving the free world.

Controversial?

WWW

ps thanks for tearing up Kyoto guys - real genius you got there in the White House.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Big picture time guys.

Quite understandably you're mainly concerned with the GA and training differences between the two Authorities. That's because it's your hard earned or borrowed cash involved.

However, as most of you are intending to become professional pilots it's in your own interests to become better aquainted with the differences which will affect your own careers, safety and lifestyle.

Whether FTL's, performance issues, safety regulations or general oversight professionals labour under huge disadvantages under FAA rules. Those of us working behind the scenes on all these issues know exactly how frustrating the birth of JAA has been but still see it as the right and safer way to go.

A couple of examples: As you fly on your hols in a European registered non ETOPS 757 and are unlucky enough to suffer serious electrical failure it doesn't matter which company you fly. Ships battery and APU battery combine their efforts to get you safely down with up to 90 minutes to sort it out. Every 757 coming off the Boeing production line is so equipped in terms of allowing this but the FAA does't require it and therefore there are only two 757's in the US that have the required relays and cables fitted to complete the system.

As another example, Euro authority employees are constantly dismayed at the FAA regions being run as independent and personal fiefdoms. Many of you will be aware of the unusally steep approach into London City. One FAA Region happily approved a long range business jet to operate into that airport despite a slight problem.

Gear down, full flap, engines at idle, spoilers out and speed set to maintain Vref - the aircraft accelerated all the way down the slope!

Anyone who's been in this business for any length of time can spend an entire evening telling you much, much more. I've no axe to grind, have nothing to do with the training industry and have flown extensively for many enjoyable years in the States

I am concerned though, that many in the training system are developing highly colo(u)red views that will remain with them for a very long time. Assuming you intend to spend your working life as a pilot, the time spent gaining your licences is very short indeed and you should spend some time discovering more about the respective philosophies of the FAA and JAA.

ALPA was created and grew from nothing because of operators' attitudes to safety aided and abetted by the FAA and its predecessor. I strongly recommend that you make the reading of 'Flying the Line' part of your aviation education. If you intend to be a professional pilot for a long time - find out now before FAA good - JAA bad becomes an ingrained reaction to any aviation issue.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]





[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 02 April 2001).]

[Flare_you_fool!]

WWW,
You may have taken my post with the pre conceived notion that i am an american, i'm not and I left to train in the US for the reason i stated above,Financial.
I actually agree with you it will be better for all EU pilots but the fact still remains that it is the EU citizens who come here to train because of high prices.
Remove some of the user fees and taxation and make it cheaper and I would of been able to stay. I would of preferred it that way!!
Regards
FYF

[This message has been edited by Flare_you_fool! (edited 02 April 2001).]

[presbycusis]

"Fact is JAA is going to close down EU flying training in the US."

Interesting statement from WWW. Personally I am getting fed up with people making seemingly factual statements in these forums when they have nothing concrete to base their statements on. I would suggest that you phrase such things more carefully, for example "EU flying training in the USA is still under ferocious debate and the final result will not be coming out any time soon".

I think that would be much safer, before someone goes too far and draws a more formal and legal response to irresposible comments than a mere reply to a post.

[cyclops]

WWW I find it ironic that you talk about supporting the UK flying training industry and yet you are(or have been, unsure now of status) working for a firm which moved to Spain exactly for the same reasons that people go to the US. Cheaper training costs.

Also US airlines are starting to sponsor. Check out the $1.6 mil contract WMU signed with a US carrier to provide JAA type training. I believe that this is the first of its type and with the shortage of pilots over here I'm certain it won't be the last.

Generally I giggle to myself when I see comments equating cheap courses with rip-offs and expensive courses with quality. The history of training in both countries is littered with companies that have failed to deliver on price and quality.

[little red train]

Whilst the two should never really be uttered in the same sentence, simply divide the cost of a licence over the nationally safety stats, and again the US appears a better option. I’ve trained in both environments and my view of the situation is that the US takes a more practical approach to flying. The ground school their was silly, a week in the hot-tub with the Glim and a good first time pass. Flying is different, would the FAA want Dangerous pilots? There is a different system and training suits it. However I would say transiting between the two resulted in an easier time and small praise in the states, and a steep learning curve and added cost (greatly outweighed by the savings) in the UK. I’ve seen the shonkey outfits in the US, run by very shady types to trap the “I want a PPL, look at the big bright add in the mag, don’t do any more research types.” Why does the CAA allow this? They hold the power to licence.

The continual bickering in to who is best will not go away, all will hold their opinions, but butting in only having half the story doesn’t help. I’ve flown in both, and I’d rather be a British trained pilot, however. In the US, the cost per hour allows for a more “relaxed pace” of training. Something needs polishing up, didn’t get it just right, practice it a few more times. Now training in the UK, at commercial rates, the pressure to get things right first time every time is almost unbearable. “Practice” is a very pricey word in the UK. The navigation trips appear more of a “proof of concept” that applied X-countries; I got my 320nm req out the way in the states, many times over, BEFORE any Commercial training! I’ll train as much as I can in the UK, but if it’s a tick in the box hour requirement, I go to the states, It’s the only viable option.

There are many in the forum saying it’s a good thing, stopping people going the US for a cheap licence, I would agreed, but arguing for legislation to ban cheap training is in my view deplorable, if as much gusto was provided to campaigning to lower the cost of training here, people would stay here, out of choice. I wish to be an instructor, I want to see a vibrant GA in the UK, and I look to the US as a good founding model.

[presbycusis]

well.... if I read all the above correctly, the ideal would be to combine a US attitude with a European quality. I think if anyone here is really interested in doing the research, they'd find that's exactly what Cyclops was referring to.

How about a little of the "positive" for those who are trying to do exactly what people seem to want? Research, guys, then feel free to open thy gob!!

:)

[RRAAMJET]

WWW: YOU SAY it should do wonders for the pilot shortage, but how many of the recent new-hires (non-military) in Europe have done some training or hour-building in the US? iF THE ANSWER is "a lot", then shutting down this avenue will create an acute pilot shortage in Europe, cramping airline expansion. I just can't see the Euro's reducing their costs, so the number of applicants will probably tail off, too. Maybe the JAA carriers would then be forced to hire from outside the JAA (shock-horror). Not what you wanted.....

Who ever waffled about Americans working in BA versus Brits in the US carriers, it's purely a matter of getting the work permits. Just the same in the UK - NO WORK VISA - NO JOB. I'm saying that as a Brit working for one of the US Majors (where I've been made to feel most welcome, and NEVER heard a bad word about Brits - I'm ashamed by a lot of the jingoistic cr@p that a lot of my fellow countrymen spurt forth on this site. I can only assume that a lot of it is ignorance or jealousy).

BEags: good postings. As you point out, the two systems are very different. You've probably spoken to colleagues that have done exchange tours; it's like comparing the RAF with the USAF. Two different worlds, especially in customer service.

Ronchonner: I suspected from earlier rantings before this thread that you were angry because you'd failed to get that big break over in the US with a Major carrier. No millions for you. Bummer. I guess you secretly, desperately, wanted to stay. Oh well. No green card, mate, no airline jet-job. Get over it. It was your decision to spend thousands in the US doing your licences, and then instructing. It's not AA's, UA's or Delta's fault, and to be honest, you're still not competitive. No shortage of applicants to the biggies, despite McCain's mis-information campaign.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes but BAE Systems in Jerez is run by Brits, most of the students are British and employs a majority of British instructors.

It therefore support British GA. The aircraft at Prestwick never did any flying other than commercial flying training anyway.

We are in the EU and in JAA now. Free moevement in europe is fine - I have no problem with that.

As a personal example I was sat in the depths of winter 1999 with very little work as a UK flying instructor. Up walks BAe and offers me a ton of work in Spain. Within a fortnight I'm installed with a Spanish contract/bank account/employment rights etc. on a an open ended "stay here for life if you want" basis. Therefore it was really NO different working in another EU country as it would be working in another UK county. Effectively Europe - from an employment view and in my case - is one big single country. Great!

Plus of course there is much less hour building now under JAA so there is less incentive to go to the USA. By the time you have done a PPL and IMC in the UK all you are looking at is another 40 hrs and they can be had for £2,400 sterling in the UK anyway.

The choice people is this. Save possibly £1,500 on hours building by going to the US and then find you can't get a job for 6 months and when you do its as an ad hoc on call flyiing instructor earning £10 a day OR you have to move the US get a visa etc. and anyway leave after 2 years because they kick you out. OR get slightly more expensive hour building IN THE FLYING AREA that you'll be soon doing you CPL flying training and FLIGHT TEST in (join up the dots kids). Then when you are waiting for Mr Branson or My Eddington to return that call you can consider the option(s) of which salaried flying instructor job to take.

Jam today or jam tommorrow friends...

WWW

[presbycusis]

ZZZZzzzzzzzzz............

[little red train]

WWW. So a Brit run school, employing Brits is okay,... unless its in the US. whiffs of hypocrisy.

Protecting JAA training standards by requiring JAA Licenced instructors would be the correct avenue, US pilots would either have undergo large amounts of training and expense (not probable) or the US would have to offer work permits as JAA instructors posses the skills required and non-obtainable in the US.

how does shipping an entire school away from the UK still support UK Avation? it would be easy to conclude it were critical of the UK attitude to GA.

[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 03 April 2001).]

[Sensible]

WWW. It's ok waving the flag, I'm old enough to remember the flag wavers when we had a British car industry. Let's be realistic and accept that like the British car industry was, British flight training is overpriced and like the car industry is likely to become a rare animal in the realistic world. Waving the flag and being exclusive is hardly the way forward. I see no difference between training in the USA or Spain, neither place is the UK. The fact that Brits are employed in Spain as instructors is encouraging and commendable but nevertheless not an overwhelming consideration in deciding where all training should be carried out, well not to me anyway! Aviation is a global industry and the two main players are Europe and the USA it's time that the two leading players came together to agree common standards for training and qualification.

Has anybody heard the news that the British Empire has fallen?



[This message has been edited by Sensible (edited 04 April 2001).]

[RRAAMJET]

Little r. t.

"...having the skills required and not obtainable in the US..."

EXCUSE ME? nOT quite sure how you meant that to sound, but I know of lots of people over here with UK/ other European instructors quals. Guess we don't have the skills anymore because we emigrated....

Good post though...

[Wibbly P]

Ok, cool

[presbycusis]

little red train, sensible, rraamjet

You woke me up - refreshing posts guys! Nice to know everone does not revolve around EU training in EU only, BAe, and anything else that is just not USA. And I'm not even American!

[BEagle]

As someone else said, 'reputable' flight schools are obviously quite acceptable wherever they are. But there are some, shall we say, 'minimum standard' PPL-farms in the US whose output products are demonstrably poor. The UK CAA knows this, but considers that there is no 'safety case' as no-one will let one of these pilots lose on their own in the UK without further training - and that will cost some of them around £1000!!

Incidentally, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Jerez only taking students who have been aptitude tested nowadays? Rather than just anyone who can secure the dosh needed?

[This message has been edited by BEagle (edited 04 April 2001).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

BEagle you are correct. All self sponsored applicants have to pass a battery of aptitude tests before being accepted in Jerez. Quality of output being the name of the game in what will hopefully turn out to be an upwardly spiralling spirall of better applicants > better graduates > better job offers > better applicants.

The EU cannot compete against the US due to our inherent higher cost structures. Therefore we shall operate as a unified trading block with closed borders between FAA and JAA. Simple.

The same thing also means of course that the door is closed to lots of non-EU pilots thus helping you enormously to get that first job once you have stumped up your full whack for your JAA training. Remember - getting a job is what its ALL about in the end.

WWW

[britavia]

RRAAMJET:

Nice one. Absolutely correct. Hope all is going well at AA, maybe I'll be knocking on your door before long ;-)

I've worked for 4 flight schools here in the USA and of all of them, the worst run without a doubt was a British school run by a Brit!

I'm not suggesting for a moment that there aren't bad US owned and operated flight schools..there are and I started my flight training with one. Just seems a shame that some of my fellow Brit countrymen don't always give a good impression.

[ronchonner]

RRAAMJET,
you are right, i miss the turn, but keep in mind there are thousand of EU guys flying in the USA and looking a job somewhere else than EU or USA and more EU countries try to "boycott" the training in USA, more students go to the USA.
there are other countries which recognise FAA licence.I do nt know if they recognise JAA licence frozen ATP due to the lack of experience.
you are right it's a choice, I fly, not a jet, but I continue to do what I like to do, to fly! I can ad that this fight bring money to EU schools, it s exactly what they wanted(boycott the US).Anyway, somebody is going to pay, the consomator(student pilots), the airliners, schools or the tax payers!!!

[little red train]

RRAAMJET ~ Sorry for any offence, I was simply quoting the US green card reqs, without any adaptation to the context: "Skill" being in possession of a JAR licence. Not flying a plane any better. I was referring to the fact few US pilots would waste the time and money to teach Europeans, especially as in real terms their outlay would be greater.

I've been to a couple of US "Factory PPL" schools, I've always loathed the term "Factory", Ford make cars in a factory and they’re quite good. The word for those schools is CRAP. They don't train what is required to produce a competent pilot. Why is this prevalent in the US?

1. Does the FAA Clamp down on something that would only lose business and doesn't cause them any trouble... No

2. Do the CAA Clamp down on "CAA Approved" Schools that don't train to a proper standard... No

Q. Who's the Bad guys?

(BEagle, sure there is the case that they won't be allowed to fly, but why should the schools be allowed to rip them off? CAA should take a bit more responsibility as nobody else is in the position to, or is it the fact of all the fat fees rolling in?)


Both schools run by brits. One school was good cheap fun flying, not the best gear ect, but run by two guys who liked flying and wanted to see a safe pilot. the other was run by a complete W@nker only to rip people off. he'd be a w@nker if he was Greek, Yank, German or Spanish, and it would still by a Crap school.

Judge a pilot by his flying and experience, not where he was trained.


[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 04 April 2001).]

[Kenny]

Fellas,

I've read many a post in "Wannabes" containing the FAA vs JAA rantings and ravings. Usually they bring a smile to my face, sometimes they make me laugh but more often than not they just p!@s me off.

I've flown in both the UK and the US, have worked as an instructor for both JAA and FAA students and have an FAA ATPL and just need to do the flight test for the JAA ATPL to get that. So I'd like to think I can compare the 2 systems with some degree of experience.

The JAA ATPL exams are far harder than their FAA counterpart. Anyone who's waded through Module 1 and 2 can atest to that. Do they test what you really need to know to operate as a commercial pilot with an airline. Well, that's debatable, but a European Pilot who's done the ATPL subjects WILL have a far better theoretical understanding of the relevent areas covered by these exams as well as being alot poorer. After having done the exams and speaking to my friends it has become clear that most of us have "Brain-dumped" most of it as being useless, which when I think of the expense really annoys me.

So now we get to the flying: GENERALLY, it has been my experience that the US students have been far better at the practical side of being a pilot. Now before I get burning crosses hung on my door at night, let me try to justify that.

As a US PPL you should have been exposed on fairly regular basis to a greater range of situations and experiences. For instance, US students generally have more experience operating in a radar-controlled environment. All my US students had to deal with operating in Miami's and Orlando's class B throughout their training. Anyone who's tried to get a RIS or RAS out of Luton on a saturday afternoon with 10 A/C flying towards the WCO NDB will know that this is sort of experience is harder to come by in the UK.
You should have also had the chance to fly on longer flights experiencing different types of weather. The US is simply bigger, has a wider range of weather and I think this makes the PPL's in the US more experienced at GO-No GO decision making. Throughout my training in the UK it was simply is the weather good or bad. Not much in between. These are just 2 ways in which I feel US students geat a broader experience of flying. There are others but I think this means that you should be more confident and more proficient at this here flying lark. Isn't that the whole point??

The JAA students that I taught seemed to spend more time talking about how European pilots were safer and how much better flying in Europe is. My point to them was and is, if it's so bad in the US what are you doing here aswell as if you spent more time concentrating on the job at hand instead of lugging that chip on your shoulder around, you do far better. It wouldn't even occur to most US students to start slagging of European pilots as being unworthy to fly.

There will always be European/US rivalry, it's healthy and provides some funny jokes. But this whole JAA vs FAA debate seems to be instigated and encouraged by Europeans rather than Septics. I really can't help wondering if it's just Europeans and especially us Brits who are jealous at having to spend so much more time and money to achieve the same results as a US student. Could it be that our over inflated sense of self importance and very obviuos arrogance stem from having to justify spending thousands of pounds on ground schooling no-one really can justify. There is good and bad training, good and there are good and bad pilots the world over. Bottom line: Who cares about who's better, aren't we all doing the same thing for the same reasons?? Stop bitching and enjoy being up in the air.

------------------

[ronchonner]

I fly regulary in europe and in the USA.
why do you think airlines have selection tests before to employ a pilot.If you are SO GOOD in england, why BA and other airlines test you in a sim or else?
I flew with hundred of guys, from India, saudia, england, USA, france,...some are good, some shouldn t fly a plane!!!
there is no point to say if a school is good or not. I see good pilots in bad schools and bad pilots in good school.
I saw bad JAA pilots and bad FAA pilots.
Some of you will never get a job because you are to bad to fly a plane.
With 200h, do nt excpect to much,it take years and years before to become a pilot.It s not the license wich will make you a pilot.
In french we say:L'habit ne fait pas le moine!
anyway, i looked at my wallet and the experience i can get for my money and the USA is number one on my list.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

ONCE AGAIN we stray into the pointless territory of 'who is the better pilot'/'which is the best training regime'.

That is not the point.

If the EU is to retain, enhance and secure - for the long term - an ability to train its commerical pilots then its got to stop Uncle Sam stealing all the business.

Its a simple strategic decision that hasn't happened before simply because America is a United States and Europe was a hodge podge of ill organised countries with disspirate licensing authorities.

Stop letting Americas inherent coherence plus its cheaper tax base stunt the growth of aviation in the EU.

I want to see UK/EU Wannabes able to train relatively locally, to a high standard, AND THEN be able to start their careers in localish flying schools and airlines.

JAA propsals will facilitate this in 2 ways. 1 fewer people going abroad to the US to train. 2 less competition from The New World pilots who always seem to have 8,000 twin bours under their belt at age 21.

Another salient point that people have chosen to ignore (see my previous posting) is that you earn a lot less in your early years in under the FAA system. Remember the higher the barriers to entry - the greater the rewards. Looks bad if you are just starting out but looks great when you start your career...

Please, no more My dad flys better than your dad debates or we'll be onto the relative merits of 509 vs Self Improver before we know it!

Safe flying,

WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

And to steal from another thread on PPRuNe - for those Europeans who are huge fans of the FAA remember that in the US:

"Generally speaking, the current averages of new hire pilots at the airlines are: 3,300 hours total flying time, 2,700 hours multi-engine/turbo, with 1,200 hours pilot-in-command."

WWW

[britavia]

WWW says:

"ONCE AGAIN we stray into the pointless territory of 'who is the better pilot'/'which is the best training regime'.

That is not the point."

That's right, it isn't the point at all. Uncle Sam isn't "stealing" European flight students, they come of their own free will for all the reasons stated many times before.

If you want to see a United Europe for aviation matters and make it cheaper at the same time too, then you have to change it to make it work how you want it.

Protectionist moves to limit choice rarely work well. As RRAAMJET said, if you want to work in a country not of your own nationality, then you need to address the issue of the work visa problem first...and it's not impossible to do so.

There is always a way round an apparently impossible problem.

[herniair]

Kenny seems sensible or, maybe, he is Sensible.

The immoderate moderator, WWW, seems stupid or, maybe, he is

On that subject-

There is nothing 'inherent' in the cost difference between Europe and U.S. or anywhere else. There is more cheap fuel coming from the North Sea than North America and having to pay more for Cessna parts is the same problem as having to pay more than Americans for a car or a computer.

The problem is political- 'they' prefer that you pay more for almost everything in Europe.

The correct attack is on costs (our VAT, landing charges, high profit margins, ludicrous licensing fees etc.) not on competition, from the U.S., Australia etc.

Proctectionism- supported by silly Uncle Sam slagging etc.- would actually worsen the problem by removing competition for the inefficient and anti-consumer flight training environment in Europe- fostered by an unaccountable CAA/JAA gang of bureaucrats.

There may be a few 'New World' pilots getting jobs in Europe but there are many more who have moved in the opposite direction.

It is incredible that anyone on Wannabees and, especially, a moderator would advocate restricting your consumer and human rights to train as cheaply as possible and/or wherever you want.

The big, and really sick, joke about all the little Brit. and confused JAA jingoism is that aviation is supposed to be international so, however much 'they' manage to shaft you when studying, you can still be an aviator anywhere !

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Being a Moderator never has precluded one from having an opinion. Everyone is free to have one here.

Once you've worked through the industry from Wannabe, PPL then Commercial Flying Instructor, and then into the airline world PLUS you've considered all matters Wannabe for many years you will very probably come to the same opinion that I have.

Its not a simple issue.

However, the wheels are in motion and the facts are that there will be no more Non JAA companies authorised to train for the JAA license.

PPL and hour building will still be available in the US but its getting less attractive. Good news for the local flying school, club and instructor on balance.

If you don't get sponsored (lots of people) and the airlines aren't interested in you with 180hrs fresh out of College then this is also very good news for you.


WWW

[PPRuNe Towers]

Well, while the debate continues the world keep on turning and both systems keep on producing professional pilots.

All at the Towers would like to congratulate the Welshman. This morning police leave in the East Midlands area was cancelled to keep wellwishers, spotters and overexcited groupies out of harm's way while he performed a series of circuits in a 737-300.

From Wannabee to PPL, Instructor and now jet F.O. All conducted here on open forum describing every step of the way while assisting hundreds with information privately by e-mail.

Congratulations on joining the ranks mate - A very special day.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]

[herniair]

WWW's laudable achievement and his fan club posting on this topic are irrelevant to the points I made.

Whatever 'good news' there may be for others, it won't be for you, the consumer.

However it is dressed-up, by WWW and others, the JAA intention to reduce competition and restrict your rights will wreck some Wannabes opportunities to make it at the already high cost. That will only increase if the JAA has its way.

[presbycusis]

This is a pointless thread. No-one yet knows for sure which way the JAA are going - not even the JAA and for certain not even anyone Welsh! I know that this is a rumour network, but please stop posting rumour and claiming it to be fact. Some people are getting pi$$ed off :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmmm, well if you had very recently had lunch with a prominent figure in the European Association of Airline Pilot Schools www.eaaps.com (http://www.eaaps.com) like a certain Welshman has - you might have a quite clear idea of exactly where JAA is going as regards commerical flying training in the US...

You ain't seen me - roight.

WWW

[PPRuNe Towers]

herniair,

It could be equally argued that the value to the consumer is very much greater over here, especially in the UK.

You view is, understandably, short term, something I mentioned earlier on this thread.

After paying all that money though you face job prospects and income inconceivable to those native to and training in the 'cheap' countries you all love talking about.

Whether America, South Africa, Australia or the latest place for a cheap licence or hour building the locals will be generally polite but utterly dumbfounded at just how many thousands of hours they will have to knock up in instructing, GA and with third level operators before they are even employable in an aircraft type that you and other wannabees here expect to start flying in your very first job.

The system you decry so much lags but is a reponse to the market for pilots. The market in America is changing as well with lower hour requirements for regional jobs. However, let's be perfectly blunt about this, the last time 200 hour civilian pilots went straight onto airline jet equipment in the States was in 1966/7 due a lttle disagreement in Indo-China.

Pilots elsewhere in the world pay their 'dues' over a very long period before they get jobs that pay well.

The direct opposite is true here. In world terms, high earning jobs on advanced equipment at the very start of your careers. The rest of the world looks at it this way: you've bought between 4 and 10 years of struggling through their post licence issue systems.

Overall UK wannabees actually work their way through what is easily, in the medium and long term, the cheapest system in the world.

Discuss: :) :) :) :) :) :)

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]

[little red train]

And you can "Buy it" for a lot less in the Cheaper training states.

The UK CAA Recognised (And still do by virtue of not grounding nearly every pilot) Training Not within the UK. the US was and still is on saftey grounds an acceptable option. just not to those who have now a licence and don't want to be "undercut" by financially leaner Forigen students, or the self protecting JAA.

Just becuase Spain is in the EU, don't try and tell me going there is good and cheaper. and going to the US is bad but a great deal cheaper.

I would happily pay a price premium to stay in the UK, but a resonable one. "Uncle Sams Free Gas" still dosn't explain the vast price difference.

I'm sure PPRuNe Towers words will be very comforting to the next person selling there House, Instructing is so badly paid when you consider the VAST outlay for a ticket. is not that poorly paid job in direct comparison with other proffesions, what exactly is wrong with working for a job?

congrats WWW! You've showen how stuggle and determination and a whole heap of cash can get you where you want, wouldn't it be nice to have done it a little cheaper?


[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 09 April 2001).]

[PPRuNe Towers]

A little patronising LRT,

Ten years to get 1300 hours and then at last a job. House sold (they don't raise much in Liverpool), pro camera gear flogged off and one of the first Career Development Loans - everyone, I mean everyone goes through it.

It so happens that the trio building PPruNe from scratch were all self improvers who sold up to finance their licences. Two of three did much of their flying in the States.

All the jets whizzing overhead are driven by similar people who gave up a lot to get there. The only difference is they did it before you.

One of the problems we have getting assistance, sponsorship and quality mentors for wannabee projects is a poor attitude that often comes across. Rightly or wrongly many of you appear to be self centred, immature and unwilling to put anything back for those following in your footsteps.

Before the howls of denial are typed into submission boxes I trust you will compare and contrast the threads regarding the numbers fighting to get listed for the wannabee seminars versus those who've actually fished a tenner out their pockets.

Ten pounds to spend the day with professionals who do the job for real, been through the entire system and don't have a thing to sell you. They're just putting something back.

------------------
Regards from the Towers
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 09 April 2001).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yes but LRT remember the point is that JAA will soon stop *any* JAA valid commercial flying training taking place in the USA.

You can get a PPL plus IMC plus 100hrs TT in the UK for an all inclusive price of six thousand pounds sterling. Yes. 6k. To be honest time you factor in travel, conversion courses plus the fact that an IMC rating reduces the very expensive hours required for CPL instrument training it don't make a whole lot of sense to go Stateside any more.

Please don't think I am having a go at anyone. I have NO personal interest in prmoting UK flying training as I am now working for an airline.

However, I *do* know one hell of a lot about this subject and have seen a whole stack of people go both ways over the years. I am also researching all the facts for a book I am writing on the subject.

Cheers,

WWW


ps PPRuNe Towers knows what he is talking about - I know and have *personally trained* people under JAA who have invested all of 44k sterling plus 54 weeks and then had jobs on BAe 146's operating out of a major EU capital city 3 weeks after graduating. Now *THAT* was cheap training compared to the 8 years of hour building on poverty wages you would have had to do in the world outside of JAA.

[little red train]

Sorry if I offended anyone. but Towers, you prove my point. what if I offerd you the chance NOT to sell your Camra Gears, or mortage a smaller lump out of your house. Sounds to good to be true? well look outside the EU!

I fail to see your point, I am in the position you were in a while ago, I'm sure you remeber, maybe not as vivid as it seems when your in the heat of it.

Training has become even more expensive. and the people in the thread saying closing the US door is a good thing. I really can't understand it. the EU/JAA see the damage the Cheap state training does. "Banning" it is their action, rather than trying to ease the cost of training.

Has BAe's move to spain have anything to do with the fact they don't VAT on training? does Westminister get the hint?

There seems to be the growing misconseption that EVERYONE here wants to be a Airline pilot. well I don't, but I'm lumped in the same boat as everone else, I want to be an instructor, why, because if I can make flying one bit as fun and interesting as one of my PPL instructors did, I will be putting something back. as for your ten pounds, I don't have ten pounds. I don't have anything. I'm living out my folks pockets, and I already own money to the banks. and till I've got my ticket I've got nothing to show but big debt.

The US are starting to face a pilot shortage, even with their different system. the EU are already seing a downturn, and yet want to choke the system more. why is the banning of choosing how you get a licence a good thing?

WWW. 6K, Where and flying what? its definatly not in my area. Having a US IR for not much more would help with the UK IR a great deal more. Bang for buck the US wins and the EU know it. Why does banning Commercial training in the US help any wannabie?

[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 09 April 2001).]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Training has not got more expensive. Its actually got cheaper over the last decade e.g. BAe used to charge 60k for their ab inito course in 1990. They were asking 51k in 1999 WHILST STILL AT PRESTWICK.

The Spanish form of VAT applies to BAe in Spain. Aircraft utilisation coupled in no small part with very cheap airport fees are the main reasons why the Jerez prices are lower.

IF you really want to become a career flying instructor you should WHOLEHEARTEDLY support the JAA moves mooted. It will mean more EU flying training and more work/pay/opportunity/career for you.

If your strongest arguement is cost then I am afraid your arguement fails. As I said a JAA PPL, CAA IMC and 100rs TT can be had in the UK for 6,000 pounds these days. Then add in that you'll have spent those 100hrs in THE LOCAL FLYING TRAINING AREA OF YOU CPL SKILLTEST and the strategy you should adopt becomes very very clear.

Trust me friend, there is one heck of a lot to this than meets the eye - particularly if that eye is trained on some poxy Florida flying circus 'Gauranteeing' a PPL in 4 days or your money back (terms and conditions apply)!

Cheers,

WWW

[This message has been edited by Wee Weasley Welshman (edited 09 April 2001).]

[no sponsor]

For what its worth, I was extremely grateful to rock up in the US with my JAA PPL, go to FCL FAA office and walk out with a US PPL to allow me to fly. (and it didn't cost me a penny).

I was impressed by the whole approach to flying in the US.

[herniair]

Unless it's going to be an ego-trip, WWW's book should have lots of useful information but, if his postings are typical, would suffer from a lack of the reasoning and rationality essential to correct conclusions.

Things will only become better and cheaper because of competition for the rip-off regime in U.K.-that's why BAe and numerous other organisations are now training abroad.

Any validity in WWW's opinions on training abroad (and I agree there are anti- as well as pro- points) is discredited by his abuse and anti-Americanism. That may be moderated if/when he gets off short-haul or, hopefully, the publisher.

There are 'poxy' schools in every country, so why stereotype the States and Florida in particular, with Uncle Sam-ist rubbish? It's just as bad and useless as the blasts at Dagoland or Frogs or **** , from the silly little Englanders. Also, anyone who is, or poses as, a Welshman ought not to give others easy opportunities to identify any of the, allegedly, typical traits.

There is no evidence of a 4day PPL being offered anywhere. O.K. it's impossible, a joke etc. but some Wannabes may believe WWW- an airline pilot who 'moderates'.

[juswonnafly]

Hello Guys, just returned from the States only to switch on the computer and find this thread!

It is probably the first time I have actually read through every posting (took me half an hour!)

For my own two penneth, I chose to go to Florida for extra training not because of price but because I could get the task done in the time available without worrying about weather!

A problem that will always exist in the UK is the foibles of our beloved weather.

As for the quality of training this depends purely on the quality of instruction and instructors (something which is independant of country).

For my part I will continue to base my aviation purchasing decisions on requirement/quality/availability/convenience. This may or may not include flying in the UK.

This post is not meant to attack or defend flight training in any particular country. I am just suggesting that to have a choice might not be a bad thing at all.

Happy landings

JWF :)

[herniair]

That seems reasonable