FAO SCROGGS!!

[ILS27R]

I would like to protest over what appeared to be an over zealous warning stated on my thread - 'AFE FLIGHT COMPUTER FOR SALE!'

I believe this was an over reaction on the part of the moderator - Scroggs as I was not aiming to upset the community here on Pprune and thus believe I was treated unfairly.

I am under the impression that countless others have sold books and goods on Pprune without such an insulting, patronizing and threatning comment. What is it then: 'everyone is equal but some are more equal than others?'

I fully believe pprune should not be littered with 'for sale' ads because it is a rumours network after all. Surely though it is not a crime against humanity to start one thread, out of about fifty asking if anyone is interested in buying my whizz wheel. If people don't like my thread, they don't need to read it. It is simple. What is pprune coming to I ask, when moderators- keepers of the peace who should restore harmony to this board instigate such an attack on one's thread.

This is just one example of this kind of behaviour that is becoming more apparent and upsetting countless ppruners in the process.

I fully understand that advertising is banned. Although I believed as a private advertiser I would be exempt from this rule to some degree. In addition to this I would also like to add that many posts and threads on pprune come very close and are in fact blatently advertising and endorsing certain FTOs in some cases.

I was just merely trying to recoup some of the money back from my whizz wheel and anyone wanting to buy it would also profit. Pprune should benefit pilots and seeing how expensive flight training is there should be a forum on here specially for people wanting to sell aviation goods.

A very displeased ppruner,

ILS27R

[email protected]

[scroggs]

So, I seem to have touched a raw nerve? Well, I have no intention of causing gratuitous offence, but then it wasn't me that broke the rules.
You agreed to certain terms and conditions when you registered to use Pprune. One of those conditions was no advertising, either personal or commercial. There is no negotiation allowed in that rule, and it is partly to prevent Pprune becoming an electronic sales-and-wants board that we impose it. There has been a slight relaxation vis-a-vis commercial ground school operators recently as people tried to pick up the pieces of PPSC and 4Forces troubles. That will now ease off.
Now, I am well aware that many Wannabes would be interested in the particular item you had for sale, and I expect you sold it. Now tell me, how much did you pay us for carrying your advert? Would Exchange and Mart let you advertise for free? Have you any idea how much it costs to keep a website of this size and bandwidth demand on the air?
You are privileged to use this facility without charge from Capt Pprune. It is an enormously valuable resource, thanks to the unpaid efforts of the small band of moderators who try to keep each forum to relevant topics, without unncessary clutter. If you would like to start, administrate and pay for a website for aviators to advertise their redundant equipment, I'm sure we'd be glad to link to it.
Now perhaps you will let us get on with what we have decided is Pprune's main task? And do please read and stick to our rules.

[ILS27R]

Scroggs,

You seem to have jumped around my questions in your reply. Other people who have registered on this VERY SAME BOARD have gone on to sell things without a reprimand and threat. Have they not agreed to the same conditions as I did then??

I understand that you do not want clutter. Seeing this is a flying computer I am selling you say many wannabes would be interested- i.e it is useful to people and not deemed to be 'clutter'!

I really believe that Pprune is a benefit to the wannabe and should not cost any money as flight training costs enough alone! As for paying pprune so that I could advertise my flight computer is rather silly! Not every form of media carries a price for advertisment you know- look at local papers etc. Usually in local papers there are free advertisments if the goods are under a certain value or flying school notice boards for that matter.

I could totally understand if I got hold of a thousand whizz wheels and tried to sell them on here to make a substantial profit for myself. But that was not my intended action.

Why does it come down to money. It should just be sufficient to help ppruners out by letting them sell unneeded goods. The main purpose of the wannabe section of pprune is to help the wannabe realise his dream in professional aviation. This is highly dependant on his current financial status. So by allowing the sale of used aviation goods, it benefits the wannabe in the long term. After all pprune is here to help us!

I really don't see what the problem is.

ILS27R

[clear prop!!!]

Have to agree here.

The padlocks seem to be flying fast and furious these days...someone got a job lot cheap or something??

I would agree that we don't want to see PPruNe become like a classified section in the local rag, but items such as training manuals (Not from FTO's!!) etc should be able to be recycled amoungst Wannabes. Lets face it we are are all short of cash and every penny helps!

Other subjects which come under the padlock more often these days look to be no more than 'rumours'!.... Now, forgive if I'm wrong, but does the wourd 'rumour' not feature in the title of this site somewhere???

Lighten up guys, we are in danger of loosing the spirit of things! :rolleyes:

[Autofly]

I'm gonna go with Scroggs on this one.

Granted alot of FTO's get publicity on this forum but that is mearly it. You could argue that everytime a 747 is mentioned then Boeing is getting free advertising too, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I would imagine that most PPL pilots will upgrade their kit once in a while which would be of use to less experienced or student pilots. I got all my kit from a friend but advertising for this should remain on club notice boards and alike.

If half of the PPRuNer's on this site decided to sell something just imagine the number of extra posts. The server wouldn't hack it for one and secondly who wants to sift through a load of ads to find some info on an interview the following day???? Not me. I understand what you are saying ILS27R that it is only one post but if it were allowed to remain the flood gates would open.

Autofly

[ILS27R]

Autofly,

I respect your opinion but what infuriates me most is that others were able to sell goods on here WITHOUT the over zealous, patronizing comment being place on their thread!!

I'm not naming names but it has been done several times with books, whizz wheels and I even think headsets. You know who you are- so watch out- the PPrune police will catch you!

So is there favoritism here on pprune or something??

[scroggs]

I'll try and put this as simply as I can.
When Danny Fyne (Capt Pprune) started this website, it was pretty much a private discussion group for airline pilots, run by Danny in his spare time. Rumours - often wild and inaccurate, but fun - were interspersed with jokes and the occasional factual post. That's where we got the name from.
In the five years since then, Pprune has expanded to become the single most popular aviation site on the internet. It's still run by Danny in his spare time, but its high profile has forced a change of emphasis. Rumours based on fact, and which don't have the potential to damage anyone, are still welcome, but the primary aim of the site now is to exchange information. We now have something over 60 forums for that task, and a couple of humourous ones for those who are into that sort of thing. So the 'rumour' part of our name is now perhaps a little inaccurate, I'll agree - but the name stays!
Wannabes is now the largest single forum on Pprune, and on its own demands huge bandwidth from its server. The servers for Pprune cost some thousands of dollars monthly (they're in the US), all of which Danny is, I believe, personally liable for.
As the membership of Pprune expanded exponentially, Danny recognised the potential for misuse of his site, and put in place a set of terms and conditions of use which you all electronically signed up to. Those terms include the bit about no advertising. Obviously, from the commercial point of view, Danny saw the need to charge for business advertising to offset the costs, so we get upset if a company attempts to get gratis publicity when we'd rather they pay and help the entire Pprune community. Sometimes a company has a legitimate need to post on Pprune, usually to correct wrong information being given out by an individual Ppruner, and that's fine by us. The recent collective effort by some of the UK ground schools to rescue the people left high and dry by PPSC and 4Forces was something of an exceptional situation, and we tolerated posts that in other times we wouldn't. I think the students involved will agree it was the right thing to do.
Now, we come to the personl advert bit. Danny doesn't want you to do it, is the bottom line. The reason is that, once it's allowed to start, it could quickly come to dominate Wannabes, and that's not what we're here for. The task of sifting through, say, a hundred ads a day to sort the commercial from the private (which would most certainly be necessary) doesn't fill me with joy. I've got better things to do with my spare time.
You say that there are other free ad places; indeed there are, but most of them are profit-making publications that sell commercial advertising on the back of the number of readers who want the private ads. As I say, you want to run a site that does that (and can make it pay) and we'll happily link to it. We don't want to run that sort of site, so we choose to maintain our rules. Those rules say that all advertising must be paid for, end of story. We are not going to let you ride the back of these expensive servers to offload your kit. If we could find a way of charging you a percentage to cover our costs, we could consider it, but the logistics are beyond the small group of volunteers that moderate this site, so it's not going to happen.
Yes, a few personal ads have slipped through our net. All of us moderators have jobs and families, and even other interests. We can't be here all the time to catch the recidivists who insist on abusing our hospitality, although we do try.
So I caught you. You broke the rules you signed up to. We're not going to change the rules, and of course we reserve the right to ban people who break our rules. I wouldn't normally do such a thing after one transgression, but I will certainly warn the transgressor that banning is the potential penalty should they be caught again. I'm sorry if you find that unfair, but this isn't a democracy.
As I say, if you want an online aviation mart, go and start one with our blessing. But we're not running one here.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Scroggs
How about if a Pruner wanted to sell some kit that he didn`t need anymore and used the bulletin board to advertise it,but then paid a percentage of what he charged for it to the Prune fund.Just a thought having read IFR`s post earlier about the Prune Fund.

[scroggs]

Yes, that might be a player. We'd have to work out how to play it, and how we could ensure the fund got its dues, but it's not a bad idea. I'll run it past IFR and Danny and see what transpires.

[You want it when?]

I'm with Scroggs here - the rules are set, you pay the price if you get caught not for breaking them (as in real life).

I've had a thread closed down 'cos it was inadvertant advertising. Their ball park, their rules. The PFA / Flyer.co.uk have an advertising section but you need to pay to play.

Don't abuse the bandwidth would appear to be the message.

And Scroggs - it could work on 10% (5%) of the anticipated sale price via Paypal and a seperate Sale/Wanted forum.

Well thats my 2p worth.

[PPRuNe Pop]

In principle there is not a problem with taking a percentage for the PPRuNe Fund, but what IFR was saying was rather different. He was offering a highly personal print to the highest bidder, with ALL the proceeds going to the fund.

Also, this has been discussed before, but to avoid an 'open' forum and the ensuing probable free-for-all it would have to be, by necessity, a very selective process. This in itself suggests that it won't work of course. We have also considered an online auction, and conducted a trial within PPRuNe, but it was not altogether successful.

However, since the fund is an important element in assisting wannabes perhaps a method could be evolved - but don't hold your breath, it is very complicated - as we have discovered.

[Hamrah]

ILS27R

I note that your For Sale thread is still accessible, despite it being locked, and in breach of the rules. If you changed your profile, your e-mail address would also be available.

The PPRuNe server is in overload, despite all the recent upgrades. Yes, there are more locked threads due to wandering off topic, descending into abuse, or just plain silliness. That's how we are going to keep this site usable.

I suggest you accept Scroggs decision for the reasons stated above. Or if you want to REALLY magnanimous, why not offer your computer to the PPRuNe fund to be auctioned. I assume you've had more than £30 worth of advice and entertainment from the site over the years :)

H

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Hamrah ]