Hoisting recurrency

[Bladestrike]

For those in the know, what kind of recurrency is required to maintain some proficiency at night/over-water hoisting?

What would be the difference in training for hoisting as opposed to dropping an ARC kit?

What’s the standard for nightops, NVG's or night sun?

Any guidance would be most appreciated.

[helmet fire]

Night over water hoisting? Only with an auto hover system or serious drugs. Then again we used to do it in the Huey (on drugs with auto gibber from the crewman :D :D ). Never tried it on NVG.

For currency, we used once every 90 days and given the difficulty of the operation (without the autohover), I think this was bare minimums until you built up heaps of experience. No idea what may be appropriate on autohover equipped systems. Try someone from the Oz Navy - they still do it, and even performed night rescue hoists during the Sydney to Horbart Yatch race disaster in appalling conditions.

[offshoreigor]

BLADESTRIKE

How she hangin mate?

I used to do a little overwater night hoisting way back when! SeaKings, out of Shearwater.

Ask any SAR guy, anywhere, and they will tell you that hoisting currency for Level 1 SAR, (i.e. Night, Over water) requires at the very minimum, weekly Day hoist sessions, overwater and land augmented with a minimum of one Night Over water session every 28 days.

Understand that this is a minimum and will vary on Crew experience. Night hoisting to the water is about the most difficult excercise you will ever attempt and does require at the very minimum a good knowledge of set-up techniques i.e. T-Pattern of Flares on the water for hover.

I agree that the best way is to have a fully coupled machine with Doppler, but it can be done with practice using established flare pattern references.

I would not attempt this without some serious instruction from a SAR expert who is current and competent.

For what its worth, the Lab boys in Canada didn't have Doppler and they made out just fine.

Cheers, :rolleyes: :p:eek: OffshoreIgor :eek::p :rolleyes:

[heedm]

We were successful without technology due to the way we used the crew. Overwater hovering can be done with one crewmember looking down telling you where you are in relation to the object in the water. This has an advatange over the floating flares and doppler because the downwash, winds, tide will move the object. What the pilot needs is a horizon and a compass. Maintain the heading and fly an attitude. Adjust the attitude to correct the drift that the crewmember called. I've tried it with just an AI, not really pretty but possible. NVG are good at giving a horizon, previously we had a fixed wing SAR aircraft drop para flares about 2-5 miles away...created a visual horizon.

The question was for currency. I went into the details above for a reason. We did night ship hoisting once per year fur minimum currency (that's a little different because then you have the ship as a hover reference). We didn't have over water night hoisting as a training currency requirement. This worked because the methods I mentioned above were used in every sequence we did. Confined areas, land hoisting, small pads, mountain landings, slinging, ship hoisting (day and night) and waterwork (hoisting, entries, landing) all used precisely the same terminology, same crew duties, etc. A small exposure to the night environment with rigorous daylight training was proven sufficient to maintain a night operational capability.

That being said, many sought more training than what was required. Depending on experience I think monthly sequences in the daytime and quarterly sequences at night should be okay. We normally ended up doing weekly or better daytime sequences and quarterly night time.

The theory behind all this was to not practice bleeding. If you know what to do and won't be surprised by the changed environment, then daytime training will prepare you for the more dangerous night time missions.

[[email protected]]

Bladestrike, the RAF UK SAR training requirements are all quarterly now (so pretty much 90 days in old money) and both day and night winching over water as well as cliffs and boats is required.
In the Sea King the easiest method is in a fully coupled hover with the Radop using the Hover Trim (or auxiliary hover trim for mk 3).
A manualhover is freqently practised with the pilot flying a combination of attitude on the AI and doppler cross hairs and a constant stream of 'patter' from the rear crew.
Hovering over the water at night without doppler is possible depending on sea state and if I had to do it I would probably use goggles. Otherwise all our winching work is conducted on white light.
For all over water night ops a rad alt (and rad alt hold) are essential.
I know that some fabulously gifted and legendary pilots will have managed to hover at night over the water with no height hold/ doppler/goggles but for mere mortals is is a very easy way to fly yourself into the water.

[heedm]

Crab, I meant to say something about rad alt hold. We have a rad alt but no hold, but are neither fabulously gifted nor legendary. I put this in the same class as the doppler. With the proper training, procedures and crew dynamics, you can get by with minimal technology.

When I was new I did something wrong hovering overwater at night that would have resulted in a wet helicopter at the very least had it not been for the commanding words from the AC. Those commanding words are built into the procedures and we train to recognize and respond to same.

[Xnr]

Hey Bladestrike,

Was just sitting at work going thru the CARs and I found this reg. (just bored I guess)

I don't know if hoisting is considered a Class D external load or not but I found this which deals with what I call " dope on a rope".

Helicopter Class D External Loads

702.21 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no air operator shall operate a helicopter to carry a helicopter Class D external load unless

(a) the helicopter is a multi-engined helicopter that meets the transport category engine-isolation requirements of Chapter 529 of the Airworthiness Manual and that is capable of hovering with one engine inoperative at the existing weight and altitude;



To me that is single engine hover capability.....I know the guys used to practice it out of a 76A but after reading this I don't know how.

Cheers

[Bladestrike]

Xnr,

I've seen them practicing with the A+'s, but never the A's.
(I did see a 222A hover on one can, an old buddy of yours ;)

I'm sure there's a weight where you could pull it off, or a cold enough temp, or a strong enough wind........

Thanks for all the replies guys. It's alot of help.

[Xnr]

Ya

Heard that story, but never got to witness the event....wonder where he is now?

I'll bet that Bell MGB really loved that!!!

Cheers

[[email protected]]

Heedm, yes its used to be done in the Wessex with no rad alt hold or doppler but it's not pretty - I managed to get one guy out of the water in Cyprus at dusk but I know I didn't maintain an accurate hover as we did it.
I think many people underestimate the value of good patter from the rear crew, it gives you situational awareness and it allows you to fine tune your attitude to achieve something close to a hover.
As for putting it in the water - a loud "UP, UP, UP" gets your left arm moving surprisingly quickly doesn't it?

[IHL]

XNR ; If you're board look up Chapter 529. You may find it interesting.

[fuel2noise]

Very pleasing to see so much cautious advice on this item. Having started my flying career in Navy ASW/SAR role I know how difficult 'night hover over the sea' really is. I would not risk my aircraft/crew trying to do it without radalt height hold and doppler. Basically you do need the kit and regular practice if you do not want to end up in the sea yourself!

I believe many civilian operators work on a 90 day currency plan but that may only be fine with crews who are very experienced.

[Huron Topp]

Only slightly off-topic...any of you ex-Walter crews recall the make/model of winch?

[trimpot]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is 90 days for experienced crews. Don't do it unless you have a autohover system (anyone that thinks they can hover over water at night without autohover is a dangerous idiot) NVG's are ok as long as you have autohover(ie don't just use NVG, no depth perception over water at night means death) nite sun is good :ok:

[John Eacott]

Huron, see your query on Mil crew.

Re night winching, ISTR we had a 3 month requirement on the ASW Sea King, but with plenty of night dunking we'd have been fairly used to night transitions in cruddy wx. Bearing in mind that the Westland King Dipper was sent front line about 1969, it was remarkably advanced, and was quite a delight to rely on in a tight spot.

Alan "The boy in Boy's Bells" Lockey and I had occassion to winch a relief crew onto the foc'sle of a deep sea submersible support vessel one night off Southern Eire, during a rescue of a civilian sub that was stuck at some disgusting depth.

Having picked up the crew and a doctor from Cork, as we were about to taxi the Senior Doctor of the practice turned up, and took the place of the younger guy that was on board and briefed.

When we got to the support ship about 30nm offshore, it was at anchor and moving quite smartly in a heavy swell, so there was no way that we could use auto hover, especially as the only place to winch to was the pointy end. Alan was flying the ship, and I was flying the faint horizon, so between us we got the relief crew onto the deck.

Then came the Doctor, who had decided that this wasn't for him! Amazing how an overheated hoist can pull a grown man out of his seat, and out of the door of a Sea King. Amazing how hard the same fellow can hold on to the door sill, regardless of the crewman stamping on his fingers. Really, really amazing how we didn't cut the cable when he got to the deck, and wouldn't take the strop off :rolleyes:

The delights of Cork lost all attraction, so with a burnt out winch we choofed back to Culdrose, and left another crew from Portland to come over and be wined and dined by Special Branch in downtown Cork. Normally, night winching doesn't involve quite such distractions, I'm glad to say.

Then there was the Trials Unit, and who was in the dinghy whilst it was sorted what height to hover at night...............