Latest "negative" news story about BA

[newswatcher]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2843825.stm

[LRdriver]

NW, you silly scare-mongerer!!

Thats not negative, bastard kid should have known better. If I was sitting in the seat in front I would have chucked him off the aircraft myself..
Or just tie him down with a duck-tape and zipties..sorted..

[MerchantVenturer]

I wonder what would have happened if the child had refused to fasten his belt when the aircraft was coming in to land rather than taking off.

[newswatcher]

LRdriver,

This is a "nothing" incident. I don't feel it merited 80% of a full page in a daily newspaper!

Either BA were correct or incorrect in their handling of this incident. Everything I have read so far is anti-BA, of the variety "BA takes it out on defenceless child"!

[DX Wombat]

Well done BA. It's nice to see somebody taking the safety of children seriously. For those who may think it a trivial matter, a baby weighing 11lbs leaves your arms weighing 23 stones when involved in a 30mph (50kph) crash, ie, 2 vehicles travelling at 15mph. This was a toddler who presumably weighed nearer the normal 2 stones of the average 2 year old. I for one would not wish to be hit by that flying missile. I am entitled to travel in as safe an environment as possible and an unrestrained child is a grave risk to the safety of the other passengers. I will not be dictated to by a bad tempered two year old. We have to stow our cabin baggage safely and the life of a child is surely worth more than cabin baggage. Cabin baggage also weighs much less (or should do) than any toddler. Keep up the good work of insisting on safety BA. I'm just waiting for a car insurance company to tell someone that they will only pay them the cost of a car seat as compensation for a child who died, after all, if somebody can't be bothered to pay £40+ themselves for a car seat why should they expect someone to pay more than the value they have placed on the child. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I have seen what happens when a child becomes an unrestrained missile in a crash and it is horrific. I do not intend to go into details.

[PPRuNeUser0171]

I get the feeling that this sort of problem will occur more and more, This link on the AAIB website makes interesting reading:

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec02/gttia.htm

I can see Recommendation 2002-17 getting a lot of debate.....

--
Gary.

[J-Class]

From the press, it appears that the grandparents weren't making much of an effort to help cabin crew secure the child. I have every sympathy for the captain.

Recently on a LHR-GVA flight I watched in horror as my own 3 year old nephew, seated with his parents a couple of rows in front of me, unfastened his belt and started wandering up the aisle when we were only 30 seconds or so from landing. Fortunately his mother was able to restrain him in time - but afterwards she seemed a lot less concerned about the situation than I had been (I had been on the verge of yelling out "Cabin Not Secure!" when she grabbed the child).

A degree in physics is not a prerequisite for parenthood, and it seems many parents are blissfully ignorant of the risks their children are in if they are not properly secured.

BA are much more professional about enforcing seat belt policy than many other airlines, in my experience (on Iberia there are often cabin crew running for their seats seconds before landing and I don't even want to talk about airlines in Latin America or China).

[lomapaseo]

I read and hear this stuff in the news somewhat as pathos.

I tend to take the attitude that it is for peaking my interest and that in general life sucks.

I always expect that I am getting only partial facts in order to reinforce the fact that life sucks and it wasn't me this time.

being curious about the rest of the story that the news just happens to abbreviate with a period at the end of the article, I have a tendancy to make up my own explanations for the missing links (speculative??)

In this case I decided that the kindly Captain spoke with the guardians (kindly old grandparents types) and they told him that the innoncent child was a veritable child of satan when provoked.

They explained that there was nothing they could do with him under such circumstances and that the child just doesn't like being strapped in (an obeying mandatory safety commands).

The kindly captain then explained that that's all right you can have another go at it at another time, but meanwhile we're on our way without you.

Of course there is yet another story about how or why they ended up on another carrier, but I would have to imagine further in my speculative saga since that no doubt was a decision made long after their original flight with its kindly captain departed.

just feeling stoopid today .

[PPRuNeUser0171]

They explained that there was nothing they could do with him

This seems to be the common answer parents and other guardians give when dealing with unruly children.

I can see the problem getting much worse in the future as so many kids seem to be able to get away with anythign they like these days, Always with the comment of 'There is nothing I can do with him' - I know what I'd like to do to the little *******.

--
Gary.

[bealine]

I wonder what would have happened if the child had refused to fasten his belt when the aircraft was coming in to land rather than taking off.

In theory, one can't land without all passengers being secured - one reason why toilets are firmly out of bounds on fimal approaches! I guess one would be doomed to fly the skies forever - a modern day Mary Celeste!

[MerchantVenturer]

bealine,

Your thoughts echoed my own, although I had the Flying Dutchman in mind - the ghost ship, not KLM. :)

My reason for making this statement was that a landing situation would have concentrated minds, probably the grandparents', and the little horror would have been strapped in.

[Lost_luggage34]

DX has made an excellent and intelligent analysis - there is simply nothing else to say. Done deal.

[overstress]

As a pilot and father of a 'terrible two' who has to strap the beast into a car seat a few times a day, I find that picking up two stone (28lbs for our colonial readers) of childflesh and ramming it into the straps really no problem at all.

Interesting CRM issue - should the cc contact the f/d after the wheels have been lowered to say cabin now INsecure? - discuss

[garp]

It seems that apart from Overstress nobody has kids here. Mine are 2,4 and 6. We've been taking the plane since their birth and sometimes we went through difficult moments when they were anxious or sick. We always tried our best to calm them down or make sure they don't cause too much disturbance in the cabin. Here we have a kid who's affraid and who's accompanied by his grandparents and not his own parents who cannot talk yet and is probably still wearing diapers. If the grandparents have problems to make sure the frightened kid puts on his belt than surely one, and not the three of them together, ca must be able to do it. Just do it, take the kid, strap him in, end of story. No brutalities or discussions needed. Trying to convince a two year old is like carrying water to the sea.
Much to do about nothing.

[Elvis21]

Congratulations to BA for bringing a bit of common sense to this world.
No seat belt, no fly. Simple as that. It doesn't matter how how old you are. Fair enough with time he may have given in, but why should an entire plane have to wait for one 2 year old

[abracadabra]

I agree, well done BA. Maximum publicity please. No nosense will be tolerated. If you can't control your child: Don't fly.

I know a child is a child and that it may not be 'their fault', but the same goes for any passenger compromising safety.

For heaven's sake, all you have to so is sit down and be civilized for a couple of hours. If you can't do that, take the train.

abracadabra

[tiger burn]

I've been reading this thread with great interest & I have to agree with garp's no nonsense method. Just do it - a 2 year old cannot reason & nor should it be allowed to, particularly when safety issues are paramount. I'm sure there were a few parents within the crew that day. Well done BA!

I have an 11mnth old baby girl in my possession & she's flown from day one - she got her nappy off the ground for the first time when she was 7 weeks old in Torquil Norman's Dragon Fly. We have since flown numerous times, most recently to Boston on our own (without Daddy) & have never had any trouble. My airline of choice so far, when travelling with a young baby has been BA & I've continuously found the crew to have been amazingly helpful & as a parent pax would trust their judgement 100%. The tantrumming toddler's mother is some fashion editor - maybe thats why the incident made the press.

I spoke with a fellow mummy yesterday who had some very alarming news & in view of this thread, wholly ironic. She flew DELTA (note this one everyone) LGW to Tampa in Feb with her 11 mnth old son & wasn't even offered a child seat belt! She asked the hostie for one before push back & was told they didn't have any on board & nor did she need one. The same happened on the return flight. Qu'elle horreur! Needless to say she won't be flying Delta again. Could she I wonder, have refused to allow the aircraft to take off?

I'd love to hear from any Delta crew re this policy!

[Xenia]

And why is it the Latest "negative" news story about BA? http://digilander.libero.it/doniuccia/faccine/Confused/headscratch.gif
I think it has settled an excellent example to the world. Toddlers are ok to play around at home (and even there they need to be supervised and stick to certain "rules" not to injured themselves) but not in an A/C that is about to take off (or land) http://digilander.libero.it/doniuccia/faccine/Mad/Mad2/cattive62.gif
Cabin secured means cabin secured and not "partially secured".
Last but not least .... http://digilander.libero.it/doniuccia/faccine/Felici/Felici2/happy90.gif to all the crew working, and the rest of the fellow pax on board the aircraft.

[Barney_Gumble]

Just a thought.....

Is it not possible to put toddlers down for the flight and pack them in cages in the hold like they do with pets? After all the hold is pressurised and heated :rolleyes:

"Barney ya goin' straight to hell for that one :O"

Barney G

P.S. Mrs Gumble just reminded me that ours is due on 8th May 2003 :eek:

P.P.S. Better get a baby seat for the C172 :cool:

[PAXboy]

Barney - I was going to say something simple like, Make sure she has her flaps set for the landing... but decided against it.

I agree with DX on this one. Strap him down and put up with the screaming. When taxing, the cabin crew can always say, "Sorry about the noise there but we had a child who refused to put on his seat belt and that would have prevented us from taking off/landing." A little explanation and education.

I do not have children and do not like them, always trying to avoid sitting near them. I came very close to this exact situation a few years ago....

SwissAir (as was)
LHR - GVA mid-afternoon
I was in Biz and on the right hand window, we had three seats.
The middle was a toddler type (male) and it's mother in the aisle.

Departure was fine and it behaved itself on the one and three quarter hour sector.

Come seat belt time - it protested and screamed and fought. I wanted to just punch it until it stopped crying but considered the time spent filling in forms at the police station would delay my work. :}

The cabin crew were top notch and got it to accept the belt.

I think that the physics of flying objects should be included in a leaflet for all parents when they first put the baby in a car leave alone an aeroplane.

Thanks for the warning about Delta.

[tiger burn]

Barney Gumble - I once tried to put mine in an overhead but a hostie noticed!

Good luck with yours & if its anything like mine then its born to fly!

[Analcyst]

@williamsg
Never mind the AAIB report recommendation 2002-17 the sentence that caught my eye was

"Attempts to use strips of blanket to provide additional support were unsuccessful because the crew had nothing with which to cut the blanket"

How important is it for cabin crew to have cutting devices?

[PPRuNeUser0171]

Any sharp implements were probably removed - Just in case of any terrorist activity (and I'm only half joking!) :eek:

--
Gary.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Aeroflot used to have a suspended cradle that could be hung from the overhead luggage rail (lockers? what are they?). I expect it would give health and safety the heebie-geebies, but it was very effective at rocking the little darlings to sleep!

[eltel]

Bealine et al.
I recall an incident on a UK airline where the mother refused to fasten her seat belt because the baby in her lap 'was asleep, and I don't want to wake him'. A GA ensued followed by a landing when a shocked mother agreed to strap in. The parents were both arrested on shut down, the father having supported his wife and been quite abusive. It was music to the Cabin Staff's ears to hear him protesting as he was escorted up the finger, 'You can't arrest me, I'm a lawyer'. It ended in court but I never did find out what the verdict was,