Tiger Moth Modification

[Mr_Grubby]

This picture taken in Holland about 1963.

What gives with the tail mod?

Any answers LowNslow, Treadders?

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/TigerPH-UDZ.jpg

Mr G.

[Jhieminga]

Sometime in the previous century the Dutch RijksluchtvaartDienst were not happy with the Tiger's spin characteristics and demanded that this modified (Fokker-designed IIRC) tail be fitted to any Tiger on the Dutch register. Today only one airworthy Tiger remains with this modification fitted, making it a rare aircraft, but still ugly as sh!t.

The Tiger shown here was used by the NLS (Nationale Luchtvaart School - National Air Academy) as a pilot trainer.

[canadair]

wow, I did`nt think they could make the Tiger Moth any uglier....
wrong, someone did!!

[treadigraph]

The RAF Tigers had anti-spin strakes fitted ahead of the tailplane on each side presumably for the same reason - infinitely less obvious! Alan Bramson and Neville Birch's Tiger Moth Story gives chapter and verse, I'll dig out and investigate (never need an excuse to re-read that book!).

The Tiger an ugly aeroplane? Step outside sir! Well, alright, it's not in the same beauty league as the Spitfire, but then neither am I...

Trying to figure out what the aircraft behind is - Jodel D140? There's a suspicion of a pointy fin lurking just behind the Tiger's aft cockpit. Oh no, looked again, that's a Harvard even further back...!

That DC-3 looks interesting as well - Martinair, Jhieminga?

Are you raiding your albums Mr G? Some great pics you're posting...

[Jhieminga]

The colours on that DC-3 don't look like Martinair to me. I seem to remember that a DC-3 was used as a flying navigation classroom at some point, I'd have to go and look for pictures to see if this could be that aircraft.

I would never call a Tiger ugly of course, it's just this particular tail that is! ;)

[treadigraph]

It's that cad Canadair who thinks it's ugly! Egad... :O

Having read the relevant chapters of the Tiger Moth Story, apparently the Tiger passed its trials at Martlesham easily and its spinning characteristics were considered "well mannered". During the war, however, a number of aircraft were exhibiting a reluctance to recover form spins and some of the worst offenders were thoroughly tested at Boscombe Down (?). The worst once took 13 turns to recover! Yikes!

Apparently it was the only one with bomb racks fitted. It turned out that the reason was an increase in weight - three coats of paint as the training colours/camoflague schemes were amended, the addition of mass balance weights in the ailerons, plus bomb racks on certain aircraft... The extra weight in the wings acted like a fly-wheel... An impressed Tiger that had avoided the weight gain was also tested and confirmed the findings. The cure was to remove the aileron mass balances and to fit the anti-spin strakes mentioned in my post above.

Looking at the various pics in the book, post war some civillianised Tigers had the strakes removed (or hadn't been fitted with them) others didn't. Example is the famous Sea Tiger, G-AIVW, which certainly still sported them in the early sixties. I sohuld imagine that many of the aircraft that passed through Rollasons at Croydon were recovered in the course of their civillianisation, thus removing the problem.

Presumably the safety-conscious Dutch authorities weren't satisfied with the strake mod and added the ugly "Fokker" fin, though my limited aerodynamic knowledge would have thought a larger rudder more useful for counteracting the rotation! Birch and Bramson considered the mod ugly as well, and were of the opinion that neither it nor the strakes did do much to counteract the problem! I notice 'UDZ doesn't have strakes.

[Mr_Grubby]

treadigraph

I am indeed raining my albums. I have literally 100's of pics taken in the early sixties. Not all mine though. I would like to post more but am concerned about Dannys computer space.
However, the DC 3 is PH-ERZ the Havard is PH-NIZ the Jodel PH-ONE and also in the background is Dove PH-SAA of Schreiner Airways.
I will post pics later this evening.

Mr G.

[paulc]

There is a picture on www.airliners.net of a Tiger with the anti spin strakes - www.airliners.net - photo id 276160 G-ADGT

[canadair]

the ironic part about me, Canadair, calling the Tiger ugly is that the Canadian version, built my my countrymen, was probably the most hideos version of the aircraft ever!!
massive canopy, and other features, not pretty!!
but a good point made, how is it the same fellows, ( British) that can design such magnificant and shapely aircraft as the Spitfire, and Mosquito, also built such stunners as the Flycatcher, Gannet( hell just about everything Fairey!) the Brigand, the Auster! ( uhoh, ducking)
:O
just outta interest what direction did they intend the Tiger moth to fly in? none of the ribs line up with forward flight!!or was this a primative attempt at speedbrakes!!

[LowNSlow]

canadair the Canadian built Tiger was indeed hideous. However, I'm sure the canopies were appreciated by their crews in the middle of winter!!

What's wrong with the Auster? I think they are lovely, especially the earlier marks :confused:

The ribs don't face the line of flight because the RAF asked for improved access to the front cockpit. dH achieved this by staggering the wings. Due to time and cost pressures dH didn't rebuild the wings, but simply modified the mountings :(

[treadigraph]

To amplify LowNSlow's reply, they took the DH-60 which had straight, un-staggered wings, shifted the top wing forward to improve access to the front coockpit (or, more likely EGRESS in the event of the need to bail out!) and then swept the wings back to maintain the c of g. Think - and I can't quite remember - they achieved this by removing a section of the trailing edge (no! - it was the rear spar!) and realigning the inboard rib! Hence the ribs don't align with the airflow! Wonder if this resulted in a significant increase in drag?
Oh, and the lower wings are slightly more swept back than the uppers... I think...

How did they do this? A few designers and engineers, a DH-60T airframe, a few spanners and, one imagines, a hacksaw - not so much designed as cobbled together!!! Presumably then produced the drawings...

The early DH-82s also had wingtips that were close to the ground due to the sweep back, so the mod to DH-82a standard included shortening the interplane struts to increase dihedral of the lower mainplanes and thus ground clearance at the tips. Think there is only one DH-82 stil flying, in Sweden.

Know what you mean canadair, much as I admire the Beverley, it's an interesting thought that it was designed close to the same time as the C-130!

[Mr_Grubby]

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/DC3PH-ERZsmall.JPG

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/DovePH-SAASmall.JPG

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/HarvardPH-NIZsmall.JPG

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/JodelPH-ONEsmall.JPG

These pics taken EHRD, Rotterdam, 1964

Mr G.

[LowNSlow]

Mr. G you possess a panoply of pictures in your portfolio sir !!

[Mr_Grubby]

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/Jackaroo.jpg

Does this count as a Tiger ?

Thruxton Jackaroo, Blackbush 1971.

Mr G.

[treadigraph]

I'd say the Jackaroo is a Tiger - there's enough original DH DNA in there!

Just been re-reading The Tiger Moth Story and need to correct some of my "facts" above:

The original Tigers were still DH-60s until the RAF got interested and they shortened the struts to raise the lower wingtips, retrofitting the original machines, at which point they re-designated it the DH-82 which sported a 120hp Gipsy III engine. First DH-82 was G-ABRC, which apparently was stored at Croydon post-war! Survivior was SE-ADF I think, dunno how she's faring these days.

The DH-82a was re-engined with the 130hp Gipsy Major plus a few detail mods - first aircraft was G-ACDA which was restored in the late 1970s and is still registered despite a nasty crash (collision with a pylon I vaguely recall), so perhaps she'll emerge again soon. The Tiger Club's 'CDC, of course, probably can claim to be the oldest in terms of being airworthy, despite being written-off a few times! Seventy and still going...!

[Mr_Grubby]

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/TigerGAOIS.jpg

Next on the register after the Jackeroo came G-AOIS.
This pic taken at Christchurch, Hants. 1962.
I think she is still flying, but in a different guise.

Mr G.

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/TigerFairoaks.jpg

This Tiger pic was taken at Fairoaks in 1962. I think it belonged to Universal Flying Services. The ref. on the back of the pic says it is G-ALOA, but G-ALOA was a Miles M14A Hawk Trainer 3.

Anybody have any ideas ?????

Thanks
Mr G.

[Mr_Grubby]

http://www.btinternet.com/~simon.gurry/Dadsphotos/TigerOO-EVO.jpg

And finally, this old lady at Ghent in 1964, whatever happened to her ???

Mr G.
(got loads more pics but don't want to hi-jack the forum, any interest in French Home builts or Cubs, DC3's & 6/7, Proctors, Prentice, all sorts from 62/64 ?)

[LowNSlow]

Mr. G interesting pics like this should never be interpreted as highjacking IMHO

PS G-AOIR is still extant as a Jackaroo (one of only 3 still flying) according to G-INFO. One of the others (G-ANZT), a particulary fine example by the way, used to live where I keep my Auster along with 3 other Tigers, a Champ and a Reims Rocket. The Jackaroo seems to be significantly heavier than a Tiger, well it feels like it when you have to push one out of the hangar ;)

[welkyboy]

Mr G
Saw this Tiger at Fairoaks myself in 1962. I think it is GAJOA based there with Universals. It was mangled at a private strip in Berks last year but has been sold on for rebuild!!:D

[vintage ATCO]

G-AOIR now lives at Baxterly under the care of Ken Broomfield. In a previous life it lived at Old Warden with a group that included Maurice Brett, author of 'Sunday Flyer - Some Flights and Frights of a Private Flyer'. Sadly, Maurice died very recently.

G-AOIR is still a regular at Moth Club events. I know of G-ANZT, another regular but what is the thrird Jackeroo still flying, LnS??


----------------------
vintage ATCO
www.stevelevien.com

[welkyboy]

I think the third Jackeroo is in Canada ex GAPHZ Not sure if it is airworthy at moment, also one in Australia.

[treadigraph]

G-AOEX appears to be currently registered (since 1986) but with a c of a expiry in 1968 I assume it is being rebuilt somewhere.

[LowNSlow]

Lets hope so treadders, hopefully still as a Jackaroo to!

[treadigraph]

Absolutely, plenty of Tigers about, the Jackaroo is special. One was deconverted back to Tiger status a few years back. G-APAM?

As I recall from when I woz a spotty skoolboy spotter I saw a 'roo at Biggin which was crated and re-emerged, blinking, in the Australian sunlight - that was about 1978 I think. Wonder if it's still going strong? Looking at G-INFO it was probably G-APAJ.

Was C-FPHZ one of the aircraft Father McGillivray took to Canada with him?