View Full Version : Four day "Gabfest" at Merimbula.

6th Mar 2003, 06:55
CASA are giving us four days notice of a "squillion dollar" waste of taxpayers money on teaching airline and charter "owners" and other interested parties how to run your own business, how to be safe, and vital skills in "outback" flying.

One whole day put aside for teaching management skills !!!

Given, it will possibly take another two days to teach the coast dwelling pilots how to read a compass and look at a map, there is still a free day for golf at the Pambula-Merimbula Golf club.

Talk about the Canberra Beach mob, why don't they do this at say Hillston, or Leigh Creek, or Goodooga where they could do with a bit of cash input from visitors?

How much will this cost me if I want to attend, or is it free?

Too bad about the notice, I've got a farm to run.

Can someone let me know what went on because there are probably many like me that want to know what CASA are up to?

:zzz: :zzz:

7th Mar 2003, 05:20
Hi Axiom

CASA Safety Promotion Branch would be more than happy to look into the possibility of holding safety seminars in Hillston, Leigh Creek, Goodooga etc as you suggested. Unfortunately, with a small team (consisting only of three pilots, one maintenance engineer, one safety management systems specialist and myself as the event coordinater), it's literally impossible to get to every location in Australia and it is unfortunate that it's the smaller country areas that tend to miss out. That said, we do vary our program each year and try to visit spread ourselves as far and wide as we can. We are also looking seriously into e-learning technologies in order to reach a larger audience (within our budget).

On the matter of only receiving four days notice of this series of sessions in Merimbula, I am surprised that you were not made aware of this earlier. I personally arranged a registration brochure mail out which was sent 6 weeks ago to all pilots within a 300km radius of Merimbula. The program has been available on the CASA website for 3 months - you may wish to view the remainder of this year's program on the CASA website http://www.casa.gov.au/hotopics/seminars/index.htm

On that web-link you will also be able to order copies of handouts, brochures and CD-roms from our seminars. These are all available free of charge.

Please note that all flight safety forums and safety seminars (roadshows) conducted by CASA are free of charge.

If you have any further queries about CASA's safety seminars, or wish to seriously discuss safety sessions for Hillston/Leigh Creek/Goodooga please don't hesitate to contact Safety Promotion in the office on 131 757.

9th Mar 2003, 01:21

I may be putting words in Axiom's mouth, but the way I read his thread was "Why not have the Seminar in Hillston, Leigh Creek, Goodoga, etc, rather than in Merimbula."

I don't consider that he was necessarily saying "as well as Merimbula", although obviously that would be good.
This whole idea about having the Seminar in Merimbula may be justifiable to you, but you are perpetuating the negative attitude that many people already feel toward CASA.

Axiom has already referred to you and your team as "The Canberra Beach mob", although I hasten to add that many would be more forthcoming and not so gracious.

With the choice of such venues as Merimbula and then trying to justify your decision by telling us that you "unfortunately have a small team" you/CASA have further lost your credibility and integrity and it is no wonder people become even more cynical as to what you're about.

10th Mar 2003, 13:55

Thanks for you interest and visit to our Forums.

We hope you will return often when it is appropriate and keep us up to date on what's new.

If there is any event or news that you feel needs more airing or exposure, you can be sure that it will be welcomed by us all.

You have already found out that it can get a bit robust in here, but they are mostly quite harmless and more or less house trained. :D

We are also looking seriously into e-learning technologies in order to reach a larger audience (within our budget).

You are quite welcome to practise on us unreconstructed lot here.

I will try and keep it on an even keel for you, just beware, they sound like a tough audience, but are really just like a big family who just love to talk and argue about the job and the people that they love.:cool:

10th Mar 2003, 22:12
Considering their budget, the size of the country and the very scattered nature of the pilot population, I think they do a pretty good job.... at least they try.

It is very difficult to keep everyone happy and the task of pilot safety education is one that no matter how hard you try the ones that should be there choose not to attend.

In times gone by, the forums were conducted in association with AOPA and were a great success. Of course the politics have changed and that no longer happens. Perhaps it should?

Keep up the good work and make sure you keep the sessions in the regional areas up.

10th Mar 2003, 22:39
Sadly, attitudes like yours are why GA in Australia is in such a parlous state.

Many of the industry's problems are due to poor and minimalist management. Pilots and instructors are not paid their worth and in many cases not paid.

Our aircraft are generally old and ragged. Why would anyone want to lean to fly one of these WW 2 technological rattletraps when other more exciting pursuits are available?

Why has our GA industry got such a poor safety record comparitively speaking when our benign weather and natural environments are considered? Why are over 90% of our accidents a result of human error?

The guys in safety promotions at CASA spend much of their time on the road much to their families chagrin. They work many weekends and none, I believe, play golf and even if they did I would not deny them a round at Merimbula with the work they put in.

Don't knock all those in CASA as many are dedicated and are trying to improve our education and proficiency although you appear to be someone who may find this unnecessary in which case you might consider retiring.

By the way I am not in CASA.

11th Mar 2003, 01:40
CASA are inconsistant, practice strict liability and discretionary powers at a whim, have an old boy's net and make laws not to improve safety, but to make them safe from prosecution.

Even after intervention by Minister's, the Senate Estimates hearings and Commonwealth Ombudsman, recommendations are ignored, and they continue to empire build in the name of safety.

The safety promotions unit is doing a good job under what I would imagine are fairly trying circumstances brought about by their Boss and his "ILK".

triadic; why don't AOPA get involved any more (honest question, no trap)?

trashie; when you can afford to be shafted to the tune of 100k and smile about it, you have too much money ! In the meantime I will continue to advocate the dethroning of CASA's top eschelon and I am sorry if the safety promotions unit gets it in the neck on the way. (sorry guys and gals)

some questions for the team

1) How many are in your roadshow.
2) Do you fly or drive to the venues
3) How many FOI's went to Ceduna for the eclipse in how many planes.
4) Why does it take one Chieftan to fly 3 guys from Canberra to Hay for a fly in.

Finally, I get so much CASA "stuff" glunking up my hard drive that it is little wonder that most of it is not read in it's entirety and I simply cannot afford a 4 day holiday on the coast and if I could, I probably would want to spend it in a more relaxed atmosphere than a lecture theatre.

Are the lectures worth more than the equivalent amount of insurance cover for my a/c and can I claim an insurance reduction if I attend?

One last thing trashie, farm deaths far outweigh aviation deaths in this mans country and I drive around in an antiquated tractor (by your standards). and not one comparison can be made in the name of safety to justify the CASA castle and empire and the farm machinery regulators. Oh and I get a cash incentive to put a rollbar on my tractor from the government.


Safety Promo #3
17th Mar 2003, 02:49
Axiom and Swab, thanks for your good wishes.... It is always nice to get a thrashing for doing your job as best you can. We appreciate it. Basically we go where the people are. If there is a specific problem in a location, we can modify our roadshow to incorporate some form of education to address it. Unfortunately as Safety Promo said, we are a very small group and we can only spread ourselves so thinly before we break. I don't see how that affects our credibility or integrity?

Usually on the Roadshow's we have 2 Pilots, 1 LAME, 1 SMS specialist and Someone from BOM to talk about local weather. We also take our Manager to facilitate and present, and 1 Admin Support staff to keep us on track. We are very rarely all at the one location at the one time. The SMS specialist and a pilot will arrive later in the week and the pilot and LAME will depart home.

We like most organisations, have to travel the most economical means within reason. Merimbula meant that we had to drive, and some even took their own cars. No first class accommodation by the way. Last year I stayed at what could only just be called a motel, where I had to stand in the shower with one hand on the towel rail in case the shower floor gave way with the rust. We just wish we could fly everywhere instead of having to spend hours on the road in the car before having to present up to 10:30 at night.

Please don't think we sit around the Resort Pool sipping Chardonnay having a good ole time in between luncheons and "swanning" about the countryside.

As for the FOI's in Ceduna and Hay, I can't answer that as we are not FOI's and have little to do with the Compliance side of things.

Please ask someone who has been to one of our roadshows in Mount Isa or Kalgoorlie or Albury before you decide our efforts are a waste of everybody’s time.

17th Mar 2003, 03:25
As Maxwell Smart would say, "sorry about that chief", and I am sincerely. Be that as it may, it would be a dull and boring existence if someone did not keep you on your toes. So with your patience and woomers, I would like to put something constructive to Mike and the Crew.

1) Why don't you model yourself around the flight Safety mob in the "good ol" USA?

2) This would have a simple safety message to insurers and the general public and give credibility to the roadshow and give us owners/ operators a much needed reduction in premiums.

3) Take up a cash incentive led project to get people to comply, like my reference to tractor roll over bars in NSW, instead of kicking heads.

4) Overwater safety vests spring to mind, but there are probably more that deserve the incentive. remember, I'm throwing ideas at you.

5) Keep abreast of this forum, because it is a fair indication of what the general mob want and are probably too scared to confront CASA.

6) I check it everyday when I open my mail, wouldn't hurt you and you don't need to throw it to legal Counsel for vetting, we only want an idea of how you at the sharp end are thinking, and not the sanitized "nobody will sue me" version.

I still did not get an answer to the question of AOPA involvement and their relevance in your big picture.

All the best; axiom.

Sorry about the spelling WOOMERA, too busy to change things.

Time Bomb Ted
19th Mar 2003, 00:32

I saw AOPA at the Canberra Flight Safety Forum. So what is the problem?

19th Mar 2003, 06:16

No SAR no Details on your profile, but 64 posts since Oct 2000.

Did you get a free CASA cap or just come out with a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Are we talking about the same CASA ?

The problem is that I don't get "Jack sh!t" from CASA as an inducement to enhance safety, my insurance is just as costly as it has always been and the "roadshow" appears to be a waste of money. How relevant did you think the AOPA tent was?

Have you flown over a waterway of recent without a lifejacket for souls on board? Do you have a pressurisation alarm on your King Air? if so or not, why can't you ask CASA to make it more in your own interests to have same?

Next time at Canberra, say g'day to Andrew at the AOPA tent and pass on my suggestions. Still no reply to the official status as asked.


Time Bomb Ted
19th Mar 2003, 23:51

I'm in the witness protection program, hence no details......

"The problem is that I don't get "Jack sh!t" from CASA as an inducement to enhance safety"

Please don't tell me you require CASA inducements to enhance your safety. My god talk about crazy talk. Now in order for me to drive safely on the roads, I require inducements from the Department of Transport or else, I'm not going to be safe!!!!!

Please don't be the type to stick your hand out for everything.


BTW, the Canberra Aero Club were at the Canberra Safety Forum too.

21st Mar 2003, 04:47

it really worries me when you attack people who see a problem for what it is and not some sort of incantation brought about by the wasted ranks of those caught by CASA.

Obviously you haven't to date or don't expect to be.

I haven't stuck my hand out for anything, simply running through a few suggestions.

Recall my tractor rollover bars put up by the NSW Govt?

You want me to agree that all laws are good laws when simply they are NOT.

You want me to agree that things are actually happening to enhance aviation safety in this country when we still have CASA kicking heads instead of identifying a problem, analysing the problem and fixing the problem.

A point in question:

About 6 years ago, CASA advised the Deputy Prime Minister, The Chairman of the CASA Board and the Commonwealth Ombudsman, (and I believe still have a question on notice to the Senate estimates hearing), that CAR schedule 5, "is possibly not relevant to the inspection standards of tube and fabric aircraft in annual/ 100 hourly inspections.

Bear in mind that a simple part reversal of the old major inspection practices of inspection panels would have brought about a resolve in the matter, TO THIS VERY DAY CASA HAVE NOT WAVERED FROM THE CAR schedule 5 that cost me so dearly and remains a very serious safety issue.

Read that as PEOPLE CAN STILL GET KILLED BY THESE COWBOYS who are more intent on making rules to protect their Ars$ than actually looking after your well being.

I had CASA engineers taking bets on how far I could have flown before I killed myself when a defective aircraft was signed out (by mail), by a mate of a mate in CASA.

But I'm sick and tired of trying to talk to people who simply won't listen. Find out for yourself if you can afford it.