FTC-Africa v`s EFT Florida

[Lewy Boy]

FTC Africa according to their website does the JAA CPL/IR for under £13000. Is this true.....???How does this school compare with schools like EFT in Florida???

[enigmajet]

:cool:

Was in EFT in September 2000 just before 9/11, did multi IR.
Great school good instructors Ben and Trevor really sound guys.
Would have no problem recomending them to anyone.
Just stay away from avenue D!!!!
Unfortunatley I cant say what its like out there post 9/11.
But pre was great place!;)

[Flying Boat]

Forget FTC Africa

They promise a basic PPL in 4 weeks, I did mine in a UK club in 3.3 weeks, but most people I met in SA have had to extend their stay to at least 6 weeks to pass. They only just got a radio examiner in Nov.

I know this is not the CPL but gives you an idea of the problems you will face.

Accomm is an ever expanding cost, not to mention beer.

They also play with exchange rates.

Check out the Africa forum for FTC.

I am also looking for a CPL course. I'll enquire at EFT on Enigma's rec.

Happy flying.

[Gunship]

Flying Boat,

Disagree completely with you :suspect:

Check the thread re USA and SA on the wannabee section and then search the African forum on various Flying clubs and schools.
I would without a doubt think that 95% plus of overseas students flying in SA was very happy with everything.

Accomm is an ever expanding cost, not to mention beer.
STILL the cheapest in the World :D

but most people I met in SA have had to extend their stay to at least 6 weeks to pass.

I just told you we have the cheapest beer and accomodation in the World - makes sence that you stay .. ;)

They also play with exchange rates.

Tell Bush and Blair to stay home and all will be ok again uhmm I am sure you know that the RAND strenghtened dramatically. Insted of R18 for a pound you will be lucky to get R12.

AFRICA by far the best ... long live Africa .... :}

[Flying Boat]

Gunny, I am disapointed with you!
I have read many of your posts & you appeared to make sense with most but you must have been copying your Icon when you posted your reply.
If you knew how to read & digest information you would have understood my post!

My observation was with the one mentioned school, not RSA, I saw many good schools there, but not JAR approved.

If you budget for 4 weeks accom @ RSA rates & must then stay for 6, then 7 & finally 8 weeks the cost IS expanding. Ask any 5 year old.

By the way has RSA inflation slowed from 28-35% especially with regard to food, up to 40% on certain commodities according to the government last November?

Some of the cheapest beer in the world (but try Mexico), agreed, 70p a pint for Brits.

The school were playing with the rates not Bush or Blair, but I do believe they & their families should be the first ones into Iraq, not the normal people.
I got R12.75 a £1 from the school, not the current R16.25, as it was when I was there.
The Rand was the best performing currency in the world last year.

Please sober up before replying, I will (unfortunately) read your postings with a pinch of salt from now on.

Successful & Happy flying.:rolleyes:

[Mark 1]

I'm at FTC at the moment. It is an above average school in my opinion, not without problems, but the aircraft an instructors are very good and the prices very competitive.

I'm doing JAR/CPL. They don't actually do a JAR IR as the CAA prefers the training to be in the European environment.

They will however do a ZA PPL/IR and will teach it with a JAR bias and then you can convert to JAR with 15 hrs (10 of which can be FNPT2) in the UK. FTC have arrangements at Coventry and Cranfield to do this.

Call Vicky Buxton at FTC for more accurate information.

I read FB's comments with some concern before I came here and upto now, I'm pleased to say, they seem to be unfounded.

[Token Bird]

Mark 1,

It's been a long time since FTC had 'arrangements' at Coventry - must be about 8 months. Are they still claiming they have? Horrendous! I'm with Flying Boat on this one - been there, done that, bought the t-shirt, wish I'd paid more and got a higher quality t-shirt.

Lewy Boy,

Check out the price. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!

TB

[Happy Landings]

I was going to train with FTC SA with Air Atlantic (Coventry), but as mentioned Air Atlantic now use Commair in Florida. If you go all the way to (f)ATPL then Florida is only £4k more expensive BUT that doesnt include food, flights and accomidation. If you only want CPL level then SA is cheaper by far and I have a friend out there at the moment doing his CPL for £15K. He had to move from Pictoria to Cape Town though, see links on FTC website. The SA route is so cheap due to currency not the fact that its a bad school, and I have it on good grounds that a beer is 43p.

Still I trust the boys at Cov and Im going to spend the extra to do the Comair course!

[Flying Boat]

Happy

Good Choice!

I have just checked the FTC site & noticed a glaring difference from 2 months ago, the absence of their appointed 'Quality Manager', a man brought in only in September/October to help improve the service to the customers. Why is it the good ones leave or are looking for a better lot?

Their flying division was not too bad, once you could get airborne, but the biggest problems were with the 'FTC Lodge'(an estate agent would be proud of the change of image their photos give the 'Lodge' & the plan as far as I am aware is still a dream) and Groundschool.

Unfortunately you must pass 8 subjects for a CPL & 14 for a frozen ATPL.

When I was there they had one Head of Ground School & 3 part time Instructors.
They have moved the groundschool last year, so the lovely looking lecture room on the site is a lie.
That was in the old accommodation that was vacated quickly due to the building's owner & the school's owner having a legal battle over the price. Now they are in an old security company's site, about a 5 km drive from the airport buildings, great for those trying to fly & do groundschool.

The groundschool, I have talked to several people from previous groups, never finished all the course subjects. Is this quality?
It was not the fault of the GS instructors, they regularly requested equipment & assistance but were constantly blocked from above. Ground Schools do not make anywhere near as much profit as flying, so why put money in?

Last winter, I have it on good authority, the JAR ATPL students had to provide their own heaters & then in the summer acquire an ac.

SA is cheap, but beer was usually R10 for a pint of Castle & R11.50 for Amstel, the average rate was R15 to a £1.
43p could be a bottle or from the offy.

Paying the extra is a wise move, in the long run the lack of training hassle will pay off when you finish your training quicker.

Fly Long & Prosper.

[Oscar]

Flying boat! you seem to be on a mission about FTC! Do you work for the opposition? What's your relationship with AFT?

I asked, and the Coventry connection is not Atlantic, but Flight Simulation (Walter Nothrup), and the Cranfield connection is Bonus (Pete Godwin) both of whom can do the UK end of the IR for much better rates than AFT. And they have good reputations.

My info is that prices are fixed in pounds because the rates for rands go all over the place, and prices are about the same as a year ago.

So what is your bias??

[Token Bird]

Oscar,

Flying Boat is simply one of the many p****d off former students of FTC. He doesn't work for any opposition. I believe his only motive is to protect others from going through what he and all the students on his course went through, which apparently was even worse than what my course (the one before FBs) went through - although we didn't finish more than half our groundschool subjects, at least we didn't get booted out of our accommodation!

As for the Rand exchange rate, what actually happens is that you say to FTC 'I want to pay £1000', for example. They then convert it into Rand at the current exchange rate, for example, R16 to the pound. Hence R16000 will leave your bank account. However, FTC will then only give you flying credits equivalent to about R11 to the pound. Hence only about R11000 ends up in your FTC account for training. I leave it up to your imagination what happens to the missing money.

Happy Landings, glad you made the sensible decision. You say that the course is cheap due to the exchange rate, not because the school is bad. As I mentioned above, FTC has 'frozen' the exchange rate at a summer 2001 value, hence the students do not gain the benefit from the exchange rate, except of course from the price of beer, cigs and Black Steers pork ribs!

People, do not let the price of beer dictate where you learn to fly!

TB

[sk8erboi]

I have a friend there at the mo. Booked to do CPL. They arrived, the school had them down as PPL. All I hear from them is stories of the same things. Instructors seem to be very good. This has been repeated ad infinitum. Planes are good ditto. However these new planes aren't available to people with under 100 hours, a fact they do not make clear in their sales pitch. The accomodation is an absolute disgrace also. It seems their salesmen have the gift of the gab but cannot back it up with a good, well organised service.
TB i see your in the north. Where? Have you completed your training? Any recomendations for IR?

[Flying Boat]

Keeping it alive for OSCAR!

Oscar, please could you be a liittle more original? OSW, OSX, OSY, OSZ, ONA, all with ZS- in front at FTC!! The "new" planes.

No opposition AT PRESENT.

AFT are simply far superior than FTC, learnt more in 2 weeks at AFT than 3 months at FTC!

I don't know Walter, but I like to think he is a very honourable man & very professional.
As for Peter Godwin, I know he is a very honourable man and very professional, but he is Bonus Aviation, and is never ever going to get near the skeletons in the closet.
I understand bonus is very good from PPL to (frozen) ATPL, but if their prices are so good, why should anyone even go to RSA for their JAR licence instead of Bonus?

Hate to tell you, but, Bonus is no longer as competitive as you think, don't forget to add 17.5% VAT to the quoted rates.
(Nothing personal towards bonus but at present I am researching all prices and this is the truth, if wrong, the quoted prices of approx. £8,500 for an IR is great. Bonus am I wrong?)

As for your exchange rates quote, are you sure we don't believe you are highly involved with the top? Still smoking?
The Rand rate fluctuating does not make much of a problem, seeing as you are an RSA company, paying bills in Rands to the fuel companies, paying maintenance in Rands & paying salaries in Rands to hard working RSA staff, also receiving Rands from the RSA students. Even Europeans paying by credit card pay you in Rands (NO CHOICE), through your RSA bank account. A successful, worldly wise company does not worry about a credit card charge & use it to try to justify an exchange rate game.
The only impact to FTC is the playing of monies on the currency markets, you don't move funds frequently do you? As you are in RSA.
In any case the pound isn't as good today is it? Rand the best performing currency in 2002!

A friendly word of advice, change your information providor & FTC should improve greatly when they can make well informed judgements.

I have always said FTC needs 2 years to sort itself out before Europeans can confidently go back to RSA for JAR training. Any responsible person would agree.

Good Luck with your future flying career.:rolleyes:

PS

TB & SK8y thanks for the moral backup.

Long Live fair play & honesty!

:D

[African Drunk]

TB have you completed training?

Also how is everybody from your course/ one after doing with exams? Spoke to pete,andreas and michael but haven't heard about others.

Anyone who has recently done your Cpl out there can you tell me which are the JAR instructors as I heard a rumour some have been sacked.

[ECHIE]

I would recommend everyone to go to Spain. They have there very good flyingschools for very good prices. Checkout for example www.aeromadrid.com. A full JAA Integrated ATPL with MCC on a Airbus 320 full flight simulator of GE, I think around the 30 or 40 hours on it. Also possible to get your typerating on it without paying so much more.

I think that at the moment they offer the best price and the best quality.

At the moment I am doing there a flight instructor course and it is perfectly arranged. Everything is great!!!!

[Flying Boat]

Thanks Echie

I'm looking for CPL & IR training for the JAR Frozen ATPL so your suggestion is greatly appreciated.

Where in the Netherlands do you come from? I have a few friends in the Amsterdam & Brabant areas.

Dank u wal.

[Devilbis]

ECHIE,

check your pm. I would like to have more info on the FI course you doing.

Thx,

Devilbis

[pugzi]

As a former instructor and student form FTC all i can say is I agree with Token Bird and the others. Good instructors, just very poor management who dont seem capable of inspiring loyalty in their instrucotrs and seek no end to discredit them when the leave to try and maintain the image of the school. Be carefull what your promised by FTC. Not one of the foreign Students I met or taught at FTC actually left happy.

Having said that, flying in Africa was without doubt the best experience i have ever had.

[ECHIE]

I am from Utrecht. For more information about Aeromadrid you can always write me an email to [email protected].

Greetings,

Theo

[sk8erboi]

Well having returned I can pretty much confirm what is being said here.
Accomodation: Still a building site. You could use the pool but would have to get stomach pumped. Not to mention the rat that someone found in their bed last week. As for catered, only had 5 meals made in 5 weeks. Oh and not to mention the electric fence which isn't switched on. Or the guard found asleep at night ( only 1 guard for a large area right next door to a huge township).
Flying: When I left only 8 aircraft operational, not the 18 advertised. Of that there seem to be a band of students who are allowed to book them for days on end, leaving 6.
Then there is the student who didn't receive their licence because of an admin error. I know they look here, please let us know how it finished.
My advice is don't go. I have already advised people at home of this. I t really is not worth the stress.

[Bucket]

Folks, I can also vouch for much of the details you see on this topic. The overwhelming common denominator are the instructors; all good to great and the only real asset that FTC can now bank on. That alone cannot and does not make a good school. Lack of aircraft is a consistent problem and the recent demise of one of the PA28's which crash landed at night in Botswana only makes matters worse. Prior to that one of the new PA28's was stuffed into a tree after the PIC concerned neglected to do a weight and balance calc prior to exit from a short strip north of Grand Central; the area was hot and high so that's another 'frame in the drain.

Other aircraft are tied up in maintenance. Management is quite the most appalling I have ever come across; head in the sand attitude does not even come close to describing the situation. Students and staff alike appear to be treated with utter disdain alike. The high volume rantings of one management member in particular, are lengendary; to be heard throughout the top corridor of the offices with little thought as to the impressions it creates for new students.

FTC only continues to be a success because of the high calibre instructor staff who put the needs of the students first. Without them the whole thing would implode.

In closing, consider most stongly your reasons for travelling all the way to SA to do any training with them. Cost is not everthing and your experience will not be without several headaches over and above those which could be considered reasonable.

You will have fun and SA is a wonderful place to fly. But.........?

[Flying Boat]

I'm not going to say more (unless necessary Oscar) but thank you Sk8erboi & Bucket for continuing to warn others.

Except, did they get a new flight sim, seeing as they 'lost' the old one? I see it is advertised.

I'm sorry to hear about the Botty prang. Anyone hurt? Hope not!

Hopefully the Ranting Duo will realise that they are not suited for a service business & go and set up a market stall where they can rant & rave until they are hoarse.
As we all know, they can buy & sell commodities well, so then they could buy & sell for a maximum profit whichever commodity they prefered. Just not people!

Did you former victims know they were thinking of moving to the very edge of GC, taking over the old 'Buck Rogers' Hanger?

Best of Luck in your flying endeavours.:D

[silverknapper]

yeah it was me with the licence sk8.
Basically I had the finished day before i went travelling. THe HoT promised to send it to my hotel so I could fly whilst I was away. However someone in admin decided not to send it to me as they thought I owed money. I didn't, it had been deposited in their IoM bank, no one had bothered to check. My greivance is therefore on 2 fronts;
1. I didn't bloody well owe money.
2. I should have been told, not left waiting in a hotel for a licence to arrive.
I will stress here that it was an admin decision, none of the instructors or the HoT knew about it and I have no doubt that if they had it would have been rectified. The whole sorry affair has spoiled what had been a good experience thus far.
I think the place takes a lot of criticism here.Yes the accomodation is a bit basic. I'm not here for a holiday though so doesn't bother me too much. The planes are very good compared to any I've been in in the UK. The instructors are excellent. Management is a bit lacking in forward thinking which seems to cause most of the problems you read here. If you come with a determined attitude to get the work done you should be fine. It's not put on a plate for you. Big deal, thats why we are on the modular route. You want to be sppon fed, go integrated

[Mark 1]

| agree here with Silverknapper.

You get good training at a very reasonable price and in a climate and environment that make for an enjoyable experience.

If you don't like the £9/night accommodation (including breakfast, laundry service and car share), you can always stay somewhere else.

I suffered late cancellations and problems with instructor availability (only 2 JAR CPL instructors), but would have still completed if it wasn't for the loss of their only available Arrow (a remarkable unscathed escape for those on board by the way, despite managing to hit trees in Botswana!).

I intend to go back and complete with FTC when 'LAR' is back.

My advice to anyone thinking of going there is to maybe allow a bit more time than you think, but push to get your bookings.

[Flying Boat]

M1 & SK,

You have both made some good points but if you read the full thread you will both see that most of the flying instructors are not the issue.

The issue is as SK puts it 'the admin' read 'the management', also including the top of flying in a smaller way.

The issue is not modular is a 3rd class system, the issue is honesty, decency and quality.

If you go into the Savoy you order a meal, 3 courses in the Grill, you expect the best for the price, you pay individually for the drinks, each course, and your wine. (Plus Cigars if you smoke)
We all know that hotels & restaurants call it 'A la Carte', flying calls it modular. In the rest of the world 'A la Carte' is better quality & more expensive than 'Table d' hote', flying calls it integrated.
This is because the integrated/table d' hote choice is cheaper, normally cheaper ingredients, as a cost base, therefore more profit.

Your experiences are both on the flying front, less of a hassle, but as you both said, there were problems.

Accom is not really a problem for 3 weeks but 6 months+ is a major deal.

Anyone's determined attitude will not defeat the bloody mindedness of a group of scoundrels when you are in their domain. Service is the watchword, overseas is the fact, they think you have less power.

M1, you should not have to 'GO BACK & COMPLETE' as it should only take 3 weeks & you could have used MHD, the back up arrow to LAR, don't hold your breath for LAR. Where was MHD? Bit of a cack (SA word) situation don't u think?
A true service pro would have let you do your complex time in the Seneca for the same rate, assuming that was airworthy, why didn't they?

We were often told by SAs & working Brits in FTC, "this is Africa", a degrading quote trying to justify poor service, diminishing what is a very good country on the continent of Africa.

Perhaps my view is too professional & customer caring.

I'm glad the pax onboard LAR were OK. Why did LAR hit trees in Botty?

Anyone with 3 years to spend and no money worries (Rich Daddy & very young) getting their frozen ATPL, would do well to go to FTC ((Teazers, House of Lords, as well as many more intimate locations in Midrand) SA is one of the 'swingingest' locations in the world). The trouble is I don't think too many people are like that.

Perhaps FTC should go pure Table d' hote, integrated!(Ab Initio)

Good Luck with your flying!
:D

[Token Bird]

I think most of the people who have few complaints about FTC have had little experience of other schools. Out of the 3 schools I have trained at, 2 treated me like a customer, 1 treated me like a cash cow (guess which school I'm talking about).

An example: One day I was sitting in reception in FTC on a Sunday when it was very quiet. One of the ladies who works behind the desk came up to me and told me I wasn't allowed to sit on the chairs as 'they are for the customers'. Clearly spending 10 grand with a school does not qualify you as a customer. I wonder how much you have to spend for them to allow you to sit down in your flying school.

Couple that with the fact that, due to an administrative error, I was overcharged by nearly 600GBP for my course, which nearly 10 months later they still haven't given me back, and you can understand why I am p****d off. Any attempts of mine to retrieve my money leads to the management threatening to sue me for libel (essentially for stating facts about them on PPRuNe).

As for the quality of instruction, I have my opinions about that but am not prepared to discuss it publically.

TB

[Flying Boat]

Nicely put TB!!!

Don't let them stop you from telling it as it is.

FB;)

[sk8erboi]

I agree with TB and FB.
'This is Africa' Well why are we paying in pounds....apart from the obvious. It is apparently now possible to complete the entire syllabus bar part of the IR at FTC!!! Well good luck, you'll need it. FB it was MHD that crashed, LAR is working but wasn't released from the maintenance company for some reason. To give you an idea of their training track record, 2 people went to FTC to complete CPL. 2 people returned without them. One of which wasn't down to the lask of a complex single caused by the crash but to the school. One person went for a multi rating, one returned without it. That was in one month.
SK i'm surprised you don't really fault the accomodation, the rat was in your bed if i'm correct?!
My opinion of FTC is very low. TB is correct, you are there to supply money not to be taught. I have it from a source that the company at a meeting decided not to spend anything which is not going to give an immediate return. So much for long term outlook.
SK someone is bulls?!~"ng you. I was there remember. They deliberately held you to ransom with your own property. I heard the owner do it, for crying out loud do not stand for it. You saw how much they messed people around. You have a genuine cause to report them. Do it.

[Flying Boat]

This week I have learnt of a very bad accident one of our study colleagues had.

He had a motorcycle accident just 2 weeks before going home.

He was taken to a local hospital to do whatever seriously ill people do in local SA hospitals.

The owner of FTC apparently arranged for him to be moved to a much better hospital in Pretoria, where he is still recovering.

Is my information correct? Can someone correct me?

If my info is correct, thank you to the owner for helping him!

I hope our colleague recovers back to class1 fitness quickly.

FB

[Flying Boat]

The 2 dismissed instructors.

Apparently 1 was dismissed and the other was greatly demoted.

Lucky! To keep his job.