now I know why Tomahawks have the nick name of 'Terrahawks'!

[mint]

Hi Pruners,
I've just got back from Wycombe park,
I'm in the middle of my PPL, stalling stuff today etc again, the 'Tomahawk' is a good one for training I have found out. It has a good wing drop when stalled. Ok I know this is all the norm etc, until my instructor said "now I want to show you the worst vice of this aircraft", "worst vice" I replied,(thinking the wing drop was the one worst vice). "yes it flips upside down" he replied. I thought for one moment he was joshing....., then realised very quickly he was deadly serious.
a overly slow flaps down bank achieved a very quick flip upside down, wow I wasn't expecting that,
Blow me down and knock me over with a feather, or words to that effect, great fun, aerobatics in my PPL!!
Don't think I'll be doing that in a 747, I hope........ :p

[Sensible]

In my book, it's a traumahawk - like the airplane spins like a top when provoked! Fly Warriors and relax!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you do a search I am sure you'll find a vast thread a while back about PA38vs28vsC152/72 for training.

It is my view that the PA38 is the best of the very common and cheap trainers available.

I've been in a Tomahawk 'barrel roll' before now. This is a cheat wherein an aggressive simultaneous roll/pitch/yaw input is made from a steep descending turn and pull up manouvere. You are technically upside down.

Not recommended, not legal and not safe.

The PA38 wing drop is actually quite docile compared to some trainer aircraft out there. It is also perfectly safe to spin if approved to do so as I have found many times.

WWW

[G-LOST]

Brilliant little aircraft. More room than a poxy 152, and should perform just as well if the engine's not knackered. I have had the dubious pleasure of owning both types, and after a great deal of initial trepidation based on rumour from those who don't really know what they are about, I came to love the PA-38. Mind you, mine had 125 horses, which makes a hell of a difference!

[Evo7]

I had some very useful answers in a PA-28 vs. PA-38 thread on Private Flying a few months ago. The thread is at
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=53&t=000511

I was planning on training in the Tomahawk, but reality got in the way. When your school has 7 Warriors and 2 Tomahawks, which one do you think you'll stand a chance of booking on a Saturday afternoon....

Going to take a Tomahawk up to do some spins at some point. Stalling in a Warrior is something of a joke.

[Simon W]

Cando,

Exciting little exercise that eh! I'm also with British Airways Club at WAP currently doing my PPL in the Traumahawk, got XCountry #1 coming up on Monday, can't wait. I had a trial flight in the Warrior and but decided on the Tomahawk because many people told me that if I could fly that plane nice and neatly then I shouldn't have any problems with the majority of other GA aircraft. Are you going to do some spin training as part of your PPL? I'm still deciding whether my stomach will accept this "voluntary" extra bit of training.

Regards,

Simon

[ 23 August 2001: Message edited by: Simon W ]

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thats was the thread I was referring to.

Cheers,

WWW

[mint]

Thanx for the replies,
Good to hear that most enjoy the 'Tomahawk'.
I'm back on circuits next week, Got to go 'solo' soon......... :D

[pjdj777]

I must admit I've got a soft spot for the tommybomber - did my PPL and IMC in one.

One thing about the flipping thing is keeping it in trim, that trim wheel never seems to settle.

Far more comfy than a 150/152, especially when it comes to cross country exercises.

As for spinning it......yes well, not my finest moment in the air I must say. I think I prefer spinning the cessnas to be honest :)

[wysiwyg]

People who train on aircraft like the Tomahawk will have no surprises when converting to most other types (including the C152) but people who train on the C152 have only flown a very benign docile machine and have much to learn about an individual types handling. In my book an aircraft with certain minor 'quirks' makes a better trainer than a completely preictable spamcan.

[Cat.S]

My first stall in a PA38 produced an exceedingly vicious wing drop which frightened the hell out of me. Could be something to do with full tank, me at 15 stone and an instructor. After that experience we waited until we were down to half tanks before deliberately stalling and it behaved impeccably every time, wing drop easily prevented with rudder pedals.

[Wycombe]

Evo,

If you think stalling in a Warrior is a joke, try it in an Archer (I had a check Monday, so had to have a few goes).

It's got to be the most non-event stall possible....all the aircraft will do, despite my hauling back as hard as I could, is kind of wallow and flop about in pitch.

It will start to drop the port wing eventually, and I mean eventually!

So, very safe and stable, but not good if
being used as a training aircraft, as it doesn't really show you what should happen.

For what it's worth re. the "should I spin or not?" debate, I would say yes. To me, to have never done it (and had a go at recovery) is to have missed out....

Cheers,
EGTB

[Speedbird252]

Hey Evo, your damn right warriors are boring in the stall, thats why I love`em......!

Upside down in a tom? Id rather have my finger nails pulled out with pliers......

Anyway, we dont want to frighten all those caravaners at Selsey do we........!

[Luke SkyToddler]

Here's one for all you Tomahawk defenders - try doing a normal, no-power no-flap stall in the tommy, holding it in the stall and taking a look behind you in the stalled state. The tail is flexing and bending to either side like a wagging dog! Flimsy under-engineered piece of sh!te IMHO ... you won't find that sort of nonsense going on in the mighty 152 :D

[Evo7]

Wycombe

Sounds very familiar. Was doing stalls last Weds., and we managed to get a wing drop with the instructor applying full left rudder mid stall. Doesn't really work though. When he has to take his feet off so that I can apply a bit of right rudder the darn Warrior recoveres for itself faster than I do :rolleyes: :) :)

SB252

I'm with you on that one. Feel that I should do some "real" stalls in G-BNKH at some point, but dont want to. Certainly not looking forward to spinning the darn thing.

[Jimmy Mack]

I remember doing a checkout in a tomahawk at Cardiff and thinking....I've actually got to fly this thing all the time! Was pretty windy admittedly. Good experience, until we had a partial engine failure. Got it back on the R/W amongst fire trucks, lots of flashing lights etc.

My logbook reads: Checkout OK

I haven't flown one since!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Number of incidents recorded by CAA of PA38 tail failure - Nil.

If it didn't flex it would snap!

WWW

[Lawyerboy]

Gotta agree with the majority here - I'm doing my PPL on the Traumahawk and am loving every minute of it. Pain in the rusty nailhole to keep it in trim, tho' :D .

[Polar_stereographic]

Next time you guys and galls out there go and practice yer spins in your 150/152, take a look at the tailplane and you'll see the same effect.

There are some tailplane AD's out there as a result of a fatality due to spinning, but why does it not have a bad reputation?

Wierd.

PS

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

If I was recovering from a spin in a Tommyhawk, and I have done many times, I wouldn't be looking at the tail...the sound you hear is no different to the sound when you shut the aircraft down, and yes the Cessnas do it too, but you are not likely to be able to see it because of where it is bolted onto the aircraft.

I love tomahawks, it's nice to have room to breathe when you are teaching, and be able to see round corners, and not have a windscreen full of cowling in the climb. Also nice to be in an aircraft that was designed BY instructors FOR instructors.
What was the 152 designed for? Those circus people who squish themselves into a bottle or something by dislocating all their joints? Ugh!

[HomerSimpson]

The PA-38 is a great aircraft. Ive done most of my inital flying on it. The PPL, hour building and now my instructors rating too. I have flown a C152, but I feel that i need to fold my legs up and squish my body into the cockpit before flying...

The Tommybommer gets my vote!

[wysiwyg]

Don't be fooled into thinking that the Tomahawk is the only aircraft that has movement in its structure during stalling/spinning manoeuvres. The way some people go on about it you would think it's rocket science!!

[Speedbird252]

Evo, have you flown G-ELZY?

I did my solo in her and I just love flying it. Try it, you will never go back.....

Speedy.

PS. Did ya get my mail?