RAF can't get to theatre?

[Navaleye]

If we had a proper carrier such as the proposed CVF, this would be a non-issue. Q. Why does the RAF need all these a/c when can't get overfly rights to the warzone.? A. It doesn't - Three or four properly equipped CVs could do the job and more besides and we don't have to worry if we upset the towelheads in the process.

[tony draper]

Can't we just taxi them there? I mean we could have a chap with a flag walk along the roads in front.; )

[scroggs]

3 or 4 CV's? We're spending £13 bn to get you dark blue chappies 2 so that you can have one available. Most of the time, anyway. When it's not showing off in the Caribbean, that is. To get 3 or 4 available, and in the same part of the world, would require the UK to invest in up to 10 CVs at a cost of £100 bn plus!! (not to mention the vast increase in shore facilities to back them up) That's 4+ years' entire defence budget! And you've still got to get them through Suez (at the mercy of Arab opinion), or round the Cape and hope there's still a war to fight when they eventually get there.

They'd look bloody smart in the Solent, though.

[freddoir]

Poor old light blue - send 70 aircraft to the gulf only to end up 'roughing' it in Cyprus. How unfortunate. You can imagine the USAF Component Commander in the Gulf thinking " Gee, how are we gonna do this Iraq thing without those brave RAF dudes?".

Really does reinforce the organic airpower/CVF argument - lets face it even with 1 gusting 2 CVF s with up to 30 or 40 F35 on board makes a pretty big statement for a country with a pitiful defence budget.

Addendum - the operational CVF will be residing in Southampton Water - not enough ogsplosh to get in and out of Portsmouth (except at HW Springs)

Remember, a WREN is for deployment, not for life.

[rivetjoint]

I imagine the USAF Commanders feeling just as annoyed, if these countries won't allow the RAF to overfly then they surely won't let the USAF overfly either.

[soddim]

We used to describe the characteristics of air power as flexible, adaptable and mobile. If you have to cart the aircraft around by sea that hardly fits the description.

As I understand it we could still get ours there but are prepared to fulfill the diplomatic niceties and wait for clearance as requested.

We had a problem getting clearance through Greek airspace in 1974 and flew to Cyprus along the FIR boundary instead. Soon we will be able to reach the Gulf via Turkey and Iraq.

I doubt if we mind the expense of decent carriers as long as they stock decent beer in the bars.

[rivetjoint]

I like the illegal overflight idea - you can p-off someone who hates you already :)

[Woff1965]

There is a long tradition of the USAF overflying countries without permission.

In the 50's and 60's the USAF used to fly down to Wheelus AFB in Libya. The French would order them to fly at medium altitude and the USAF fighters would just go up and fly across France at High level instead. It used to drive the french nuts :cool:

[Boy_From_Brazil]

Our main concern should be, how do we get them back!

[tu chan go]

The party going on in Cyprus right now must be a doozie!!

[Out Of Trim]

Well it looks like they're there now..! Just watched Tornados taxi in at a Kuwaiti Airfield on the TV News...:p

[The Gorilla]

Library pictures??

Trust No One....

:)

[vascodegama]

Those advocating the ac carrier miss one or 2 vital points. Yes the carriers would remove the need for host nation support but you still need bases for ac that cant operate from carriers. During Enduring Freedom the papers and mags were full of piccies of US Navy ac refuelling from RAF tankers. I believe this point was also made 12 years ago!

[opso]

Just make the carriers 8000' long! Problem solved! ;)

[soddim]

By the time BWoS have finished with the Thales design they will be round - that should solve the problem in 2050 or so.

[opso]

Very large coracles huh? There's something distinctly traditional about that that the the RN are sure to love! ;) Trouble is, in order to fit through the Suez canal, the diameter could only be 22m, so it's going to be one helluva stop for JSF! The up side, at least it will always be in to wind. :)

[Magic Mushroom]

Vascodethingy is quite correct,
In Gulf War 1, BH, Kosovo and Afghanistan, even the USN CVN Air Wings relied almost entirely on land based assets for AAR, C2 and SIGINT/ISR. The E-2C's could neither operate far enough from mother, nor had the sensor capabilities for useful overland work, and the S-3B's only conducted AAR in a limited manner.
Clearly, a CVF capability would help with the overflight rights issue, but it is naive to suggest that they can conduct ops without land based support in anything other than a small minority of scenarios. CVF will be only one (albeit important) part of a balanced force equation.
Likewise, lets not forget that, if time was really against us, air power (be it ultimately destined for a land base or a carrier) could have deployed via a different routes. Clearly, this would have been an EXTREMELY long route, but it could still have been done!
Regards
M2:rolleyes:

[ORAC]

The Times - February 27, 2003:

Tornado pilots are ready to see action
From Daniel McGrory in Kuwait

FROM 20,000ft over Iraq in a Tornado cockpit, the two RAF crew had no doubts yesterday that Saddam Hussein was behaving as if war had started. Like other patrols, they have noticed how the Iraqis have begun shifting missile batteries and, more disturbingly, have shown that they are not afraid to use them.
“It is almost as if they are spoiling for a fight right now,” the pilot said. Wiping sweat from his forehead, he explained that it had been a quiet day however. “Quiet for us means we get away without them firing something at us. Believe me it happens to us a lot here, much more than people imagine.”

Mindful, he says, that he will probably be flying combat missions soon, and knowing the risks of capture, he is identified by his nickname, Parts. His navigator, known as OGB, said: “I worry more about the aircraft malfunctioning and not getting home than of being shot down.”

The RAF crews at this Kuwait airstrip, a couple of minutes’ flying time from Iraq’s border, have mostly been there for four years to police the UN no-fly zone. Few have not had to dodge Iraqi missiles.

Last month Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, announced that the RAF contribution to war preparations would consist of about 100 aircraft, including the 21 in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Incirlik in Turkey to enforece no-fly zones.

Until yesterday’s belated departure of a dozen Tornado GR4s from Akrotiri in Cyprus — taking the numbers to arrive to 70 — only half the deployment had been completed because of problems getting permission to cross Saudi Arabian airspace.

Diplomatic clearance has had to be sought for each batch of aircraft flying this route to Kuwait.

There is a sense at the base, spread across miles of the desert, that a momentum is building for war that will not be stopped. Each morning the Detachment Commander, Group Captain Simon Dobb, sifts through the results of reconnaissance missions. They show the Iraqi military moving surface-to-air missile systems and anti-aircraft batteries to where they should not be. “I’m puzzled because they know we can spot them and bomb them, but maybe they are trying to draw us into something,” he said.

Running his hands through his hair, OGB said: “We had one come pretty close to us the last time we were here. . . it does make you sit up and take notice. Their Sam missile systems are being operated by people who know what they are doing.”

This pair from 617 Squadron, The Dambusters, have flown nearly 200 missions over Iraq. Yesterday they had just finished a two-hour patrol, and were intending to catch some of the televised debate from the House of Commons. “We know the mood back home in some quarters, but we honestly believe the British public support us, if not the politicians.”

Everyone here realises that this British contingent will be among the first called into action. The RAF may have problems getting permission to fly all its 100 aircraft to where it wants them, but Group Captain Dobb said: “Everything I need, I have got.”

[DummyRun]

St Johns, Minneapolis, San Diego, Hawaii, Singapore. Maldives, Muscat/Bahrain and in, just a thought, we could set of now and be there before the dipclrs are through or hopefully still be u/s in Singapore or maybe San D when the war has finished. Those chaps at Gp with the flashing red noses, spinning bow ties and long flappy shoes are bound to buy this one...............

[ORAC]

"During the current campaign, Jordan has provided basing and overflight permission for all U.S. and coalition forces."

Akrotiri, Israel, Jordan, southern No-Fly Zone, Kuwait. 600nm. ;)

[brit bus driver]

Laugh ye not, Dummy Run

A certain colonial airforce used similar to said route with great success last year when the old overflights chestnut reared its ugly head yet again. Not the preferred option (of the budget holders!) but worked well. To be fair though, SanDiego is a little too far south on the old great circle - might have to make do with San Fran or LA. Quelle domage!

Volunteers for RAFLO Hickam form an orderly queue behind me...

:cool: