USA entry

[one shoe]

I am thinking about doing some hour building in the US, i currently have a FAA PPL based on my CAA Licence so would not need to do any training so technically do not require a Visa.

Has anyone else had problems from immigration when entering the U.S. in similar circumstances?

[FlyingForFun]

Shoe,

I did some hour-building in the US in December 2001 - before the current rules about having to apply for the license first, but apart from that it was the same situation you are in. Although I didn't need a Visa, I would have liked to have had one to be safe - but didn't have enough time to organise it. I decided the best solution was to avoid answering any difficult questions by not telling immigration why I was there. I took with as little flying gear as a could - certainly nothing like a headset which would show up on an x-ray machine - and bought everything over there. It worked for me. Remember, though, that you have to declare currency, including travellers cheques, over a certain amount (can't remember what the limit is), so if you are taking lots of travellers cheques with you, be prepared to answer questions.

Remember, the fact that the rules say you do not need a Visa is not relevant. If the guy working on immigration the day you arrives doesn't know the rules, or doesn't know the difference between hour-building and training, or doesn't like the look of your face, you're going home, with no right to appeal.

Note that I would never suggest that anyone attempt to do anything illegal - but even when you're within the law, it's easiest to avoid being asked questions.

Once you're through immigration, though, you'll have a great time! :)

FFF
--------------

[scroggs]

Under no circumstances should you attempt to fool or deceive US immigration authorities. The consequences could be serious, and would at the very least involve your immediate ejection from the country.

Talk to the US embassy in London, and follow their advice. If they advise that you need a visa, the procedure is explained in detail in the 'sticky' post at the top of this forum. I understand that the procedure takes about 4 weeks.

Why jeopardise your holiday out of laziness?

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[FlyingForFun]

Under no circumstances should you attempt to fool or deceive US immigration authoritiesAbsolutely. There's also no need to draw attention to yourself. If asked why you're here, "a holiday" is entirely truthful. Someone planning on jet-skiing wouldn't say "a jet-skiing holiday", so there's no need for you to say "a flying holiday" when "a holiday" answers the question perfectly well.

FFF
---------------

[scroggs]

FFF, I think you've missed my point. The USA is extremely sensitive about foreign nationals flying aircraft over their territory. If our friend one shoe is supposed to have a visa, and is discovered flying without one, he will be deemed to have deceived the authorities and may be treated as, at the very least, an illegal alien and, at worst, as a potential terrorist. It doesn't matter whether you agree with this US stance or not; it is a fact, and the consequences could seriously spoil one shoe's day. Witholding information from immigration is just as much deception as telling an outright lie. This is not about getting away without a visa, it's about doing the right thing.

I repeat: talk to the US Embassy and follow their advice.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[FlyingForFun]

Not sure what we're disagreeing on here, Scroggs - I completely agree with everything you say.

If shoe needs a Visa, then there is absolutely no question - he should not even contemplate going without one. The best way of confirming this is with the US Embassy. As I said in my first post, even if one is not required, it doesn't harm to have one.

What I'm talking about is the case where a Visa is not required, which, from the information he's given us, is the situation which shoe is actually in - although he must confirm that himself.

If my posts at any time sounded like I might be suggested that he should do anything illegal, or enter the US without all of the required paperwork, then I apologise, because that is certainly not my intention!

FFF
----------------

[Hufty]

I am off to the US myself in a couple of months and even though I have an FAA PPL and the US Embassy has acknowledged my eligibility to enter the US on the visa waiver programme (I am a UK citizen) they have advised me to apply for a B-2 visa. They want a letter from the FTO I'm renting from too.

The alternative is to get the M1 through a US FTO which I think is a little cheaper

[one shoe]

Thanks for the help.

I will check with the Embassy in London before i leave to see if i can get conformation in writing that i do not require a Visa like it states at the top subject of the forum.

I do also have a B1/B2 Visa in my passport but that seemed to cause extra problems the last time I arrived in the US even though I was only planning to be in the USA for a week.

[JohnnyPharm]

I was out in the states in January flying and had no probs. Just read below and what I did was fax all the details to FAA and CAA. I had the paperwork back by email within a week.

Its weird coz the FAA do it all for free and the CAA charge you £15 just to say you have a licence.



On 23 July 2002 the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) in the USA, were directed to cease the issuance of the FAA Pilot Certificate to foreign pilots until a criteria for security checks could be put in place. During this period existing non-USA pilots, not already holding the FAA Pilot Certificate, were banned form flying in the USA. This policy was introduced in the light of September 11 with no prior notice. We have now just received the new security regulations for issuance of the FAA Pilot Certificate. Any non-FAA pilot wishing to fly in the USA will now have to submit the enclosed form AFS-760 (Please click the link below and print the form off)
http://registry.faa.gov/docs/verify61-75.pdf
and submit it by mail or fax to:

AFS-760
PO Box 25082
Oklahoma City OK73125
USA
Fax: 001-405-954-4105

This form should be completed in legible black ink and submitted to the above address together with the relevant documents. You should try to apply for your FAA Pilot Certificate at least 60 days before your arrival in the USA. On successful authentication you will be issued with the FAA Pilot Certificate from the local FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) after your arrival.

A copy of the following documentation will be required to be submitted with the enclosed form AFS-760:

A legible copy of all pages of your pilots licence.
A legible English transcription of a foreign licence, if the licence is not in English.
A legible copy of your medial certificate.
A legible photocopy of your drivers licence or passport or other picture identification.

Please ensure that you read the “Instructions for completing the form” very carefully as an incorrectly filled in form AFS-760 will cause delay in the authentication of your pilots’ license by the FAA.




Additional Requirements for United Kingdom Applicants:
In addition to the above procedure the UK CAA require you complete form SRG\1160 (Please click the link below and print the form off)
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1160.pdf
and forward it directly to the UK CAA at:

Civil Aviation Authority
Personal Licensing Department
Aviation House
Gatwick Airport South
West Sussex
RH6 0YR

Please ensure that you complete the Form SRG\1160 very carefully as an incorrectly filled in form will cause delay in the authentication of your pilots’ license by the FAA.

We apologise for this inconvenience, which is beyond our control. Once you have been issued with the FAA Pilot Certificate it will remain current as long as your national license is current.

[scroggs]

I've studied the advice given on the London US Embassy's website, and I'm pretty sure that hour-building (which is legitimately describable as pleasure flying) does not require a visa, or rather that you should qualify under the Visa Waiver Scheme. However, I would be very interested in the advice that one shoe receives directly from the embassy.

Scroggs

[one shoe]

I called the Embassy in London at a small charge of £1.30 / min, and worse you listen to a recorded message for 30 seconds before holding for 4 mins at £1.30 / min, thats £5.20 before I got the chance to talk to any one.

I was informed from a lady that did not seem to know regulations that every flying case would be considered on its own merrit, there were no firm regulations to what was required. I email the consuler in London with Name, school, Nationality, type of aircraft planned to fly and got a response within the hour stating that i require a B2 Visa.

I already have a valid B1/B2 Visa in my passport so I replied to their email asking if this was satisfactory to their requirements and I am waiting for a response to that question.

Thanks for all your help so far.

[BritishGuy]

Ok, heres the deal...I have an FAA Comm Multi Inst and a US Green Card and a US Social Security Number. I am a UK Citizen.

Do I have to go though any of this stuff stated above?? Reason I ask is that Im going to the US to do my CFI/CFII/MEI (instructors ratings) soon AND teach out there. Will I have to go though any of the afformentioned formalities??

[Hufty]

one shoe

I did exactly the same as you and got the same response (see above). I also replied to the email they sent me and have heard nothing - reason is that they only seem to recognise emails when you type them into that little box on their 'contact' form.

I'm going for the B2 visa - cheaper than being turned away and sent home. I agree that you shouldn't need one, but most immigration people probably won't have a clue what you're trying to do and as soon as you say the word "flying" you'll likely be on a one way ticket back home via rubber glove city. :eek:

[scroggs]

British Guy

I am pretty certain that all courses for FAA licences with recognised schools require an M-1 visa, if you are not a US citizen. Employment as a CFI technically requires an H visa (non-immigrant employment) as set out here (http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/visa/niv/working.htm), but your green card may exempt you from this requirement. I should contact both the US Embassy AND your proposed school/employer for more info.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[one shoe]

Thanks Hufty

Just as you advised, I sent the email through the US Embassy web site and got a reply within 20 minutes.

I already have a B1/B2 Visa and this is valid with a letter from the FTO stating that you will be doing NO flight training and max TOW of aircraft to be flown.

Thanks everyone for your very helpfull replies and i will keep you all informed if I still struggle to get in to America.

[lostcomm]

OK Britishguy, you have to be kidding me or you dont have a clue what green card means. If you have one you are a permanent resident!!!!!! So you dont need a visa for anything. You can join the navy if you want to!!!

OK people enough of half- true or wrong information.
You dont need an H visa to work as a CFI you can work on J1 or F1 . There are certain limitations.

If you are going for a longer period of time the J1 visa is the best, you can get it for 24 months and you can work as a CFI and get payed.(you get a social security card that gets you the job)

M1 is the easiest to get but no working. It is isued for the period of time that you need to complet your training.From 6 months to 4 years maybe...

Then is the F1 visa, you can get that one if you go to college and you can also work after the first school year. So after 9 months you can work on campus or in the field related to your studys. So if you are in an aviation major you can work as a CFI. But not the first school year and only part time.What is part time is decided by the INS.

For H1B visa you have to have a sponsor , a 4 year degree or 2 years of working experience.And it is a first step to get the green card.That is a skilled worker visa.

That are the options!
for details aks the INS at local embassy

[slim_slag]

british guy definitely doesn't need a visa to enter the USA, but there is confusion as to whether he needs special authorisation not granted by the green card to obtain additional FAA ratings. There have been posters who have said they cannot get a job with an airline even though they have a green card, because the airline is worried they cannot be allowed to train on a sim if they are not a US citizen.

The best interpretation of this mess (IMO) was a month or so ago but it scrolled off when the poster got beat up. For that's all we have to go on now, interpretations.

That interpretation was that no visa was required to train for a rating in a Part 61 school, as there was no law which said it was required. We can all bollock on until the cows come home, but it's US federal law what counts. Nobody has produced a CFR which says you need a visa for a recreational rating. The Naples interpretation doesn't to my reading, all that really says is you now need to wait before you can change your visa status granted on entry. Then there was a massive leap to saying you need a visa when you turn up at the border.

Funny thing is, at the front line in the flying schools, nobody gives a damn when you turn up and want to fly a plane. I have a british accent and when I am in a strange town and want to putz around, nobody asks me whether I am a Yank or have approval to be in the USA. They want to see I can fly the thing and the colour of my money. I know a few examiners, and they say the same.

The US embassy in London appears as confused as the rest of us. Somebody in TSA needs to stand up and tell everybody what is happening. There are plenty of flying schools in the US hurting for business right now, and plenty of visa waiver citizens who would like to fly in the US. Why not match them up?

[lostcomm]

I`m sorry for the mixup, but the whole thing is a mess. The reality of flying in the US right now is that if you are in the country legaly you can do the flight training.(except over 12500lbs)
Nobody asks any Q and even the examiners dont care what kind of visa you are on as long as you pay the fee. Working as a CFI is another story....

A friend of mine got a F/O job with Mesa just before New Year and he is not a citizen, just a green card holder. If you wanna call him I can get you the number trough PM. And he`ll explain first hand how things work.

[scroggs]

Yes, I think we all agree it's a mess, but what we're talking about is the best, and most legal, way of entering the US to train. While I'm sure there are many, many examples of people who've managed to circumvent the system somehow or other, we can't promote any method that is not wholly legal.

lostcomm, thanks for that clarification.

Scroggs

[BritishGuy]

Thanks to all who've tried to help me figure out this situation (although still a little blury). LostComm-please check your PM's. Thanks.

[superpilot68]

B.G.

if you have a green card, u dont need foreign cetificates.
the green card is a permanent residence, the next step is the passport. you should not say you are british but a futur yankee!
The US doesnt really care of your british licenses!
the best way is to go to the US under a B2 visa and go talk directly to the FSDO, ask the chief manager, not the secretary!
they will issue you a FAA validation at no cost...forget this CAA form, it s just a scam !
I know what I am talking about, I have a long experience with the yankees, post and pre 9/11

[slim_slag]

you should not say you are british but a futur yankee!

This is a bit dangerous. If you do not say you are British, what do you say you are? If you claim to be a US citizen when you are not you break the law in a big way. If you look on the US citizenship application form they specifically ask whether you have pretended to be a US citizen. (Together with some far more ridiculous questions, but I digress).

If you are a green card holder, you need to tell them that you intend to permanently reside in the United States. That's all. You don't need to tell them you intend to become an American because they don't care about that until you apply. Keep your mouth shut unless spoken to, don't get clever, pay your taxes on time, and don't lie.

As for the rest, I'm not sure what you are talking about there either.

[Johnny 7]

A Green Card holder who is not residing in the U.S. may not be eligible for Green Card status . There is something going on at the moment as I know of at least one person deported at JFK for not having a non-immigrant visa despite being a Green Card holder ( actually one of seven sent back from the same VS flight recently ).

If in the U.S. it is a different matter - Britishguy should have no problems.

[Campbell Cooke]

Dear British Guy:

Perhaps I can clear this up for you.

The US Immigration Laws permit a short course of flight training such as obtaining an FAA license on a B-1/B-2. If you are a British Passport holder you can enter the United States on the Visa Waiver program (which does not require a visa) and complete your short course of training and get your license. The B-1/B-2 usually allows a period of stay in the United States of six months renewable in the United States for a further six months. The Visa Waiver allows a maximum period of stay in the United States of 90 days.

If you intend remaining in the United States for a long period of time and you are engaging in a program of formal study then the M-1 or J-1 visa are options to consider.

If you are a green card holder, you are a permanent resident of the United States and the above does not apply. You cannot then enter on a non-immigrant visa unless you intend to abandon or have already abandoned your permanent resident status.

When entering the United States hand your passport to the Immigration Officer. If he asks you a question answer the question directly and honestly. The principal issue on entry is if you are going to leave the United States at the end of your visit. If the Immigration Officer asks you the purpose of your trip it is a visit. If asked if you are going to fly state that you are. There is nothing wrong with this.

Flight clearances regarding aircraft of 12,500lbs or more is a separate issue to the above If you intend training or flying an aircraft in the United States that weighs more than 12,500lbs then get precleared before you enter the US. Once you are precleared the above applies.

Enjoy your flying in the US.

[slim_slag]

If you have a green card then you go and apply for a non-immigrant visa you have blown it. When you apply for a non-immigrant visa you promise that you have no intention of living in the US.

Goodbye green card.

It doesn't matter where you live. If you don't intend to permanently reside in the United States, you don't keep your green card. INS inspectors are very good at tripping people up,. Say the wrong thing, goodbye green card.

If you live in the US it will be harder for INS guy to say you do not intend to permanently reside here. If you arrive on a virgin flight out of London with a green card you have held for a year or so, but cannot give the INS officer details of a US bank account or credit card, goodbye green card.

Green card holders are not US citizens, so are not eligible for the 'rights' that US citizens have. It's open to debate whether learning to fly a plane is now considered a right only conferred on US citizens and foreigners who hold non-immigrant visas.

[gateradial]

slim_slag,

Re. your earlier reply to british_guy case

You're right - it all up to interpretation and until there is a definitive answer it ain't worth the hassle to spend the time & money getting to the USA without being damn sure you are doing the "right thing" re. visas. See what happened to Britannia students last year (see the thread: WARNING - To anyone considering flight training in the USA).



I agree the NAC interpretation focusses on status change once there but the links to the CFRs cited therein are broken. What interpretation then? Answer - play safe 'cos now your (and others') FAA certificate can be revoked at the request of TSA WITHOUT recourse. See www.aopa.org and links to "pilot insecurity". Agreed again that if there is no law re. visa for Part 61 training then that should be enough but the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence as an uncertain official can just cite the catch-all TSA regs and then what? If you want to do and be seen to have done the most transparent thing possible, then the current situation approximates a Catch-22 between a rock and hard place because not all training providers are geared up to issue the paperwork towards an M visa and some probably can't afford the effort to do so. I don't know the Britannia case in detail and whether they tried to get approval and were turned down or just realised it wasn't worth the candle to attempt it.

If anyone can point me to the US government written reality I might be a whole lot less paranoid! I was told by a US Embassy visa section that you can do less than 18 hours vocational study per week without the need for an M visa. However, for flight training this is self-defeating in terms of time and cost, which is why we go to the USA in the first place and no doubt the new regs restrict part-time flight training without a visa. Or do they?


I am surprised if so many schools are hurting for business given the reported surge in student pilot starts in recent months. If they really are hurting, are they also lobbying Phil Boyer of AOPA to help leverage his discussions with the TSA to get an overall resolution??? Florida is a notable example but are there other regions that gain significant flight training revenue from non-US citizen/resident alien pilots?

[slim_slag]

gateradial,

Another interpretation can be found here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=77813) I think this should be copied as a follow up post on the Naples sticky interpretation, it appears to be just as valid to me (actually I prefer this one). People should make the difficult decision you refer to based upon all available information/opinions.

Flying schools are always hurting. They bitch and moan like all businessmen in this country :)