Swiss downsize definite

[efcop]

so it's definite: twenty aircraft to be parked and 700 positions to disappear. one A321, two MD83 and 17 fifty seaters. 200 pilots, 200 cabin staff and 300 groundstaff.

I hope we have seen the last of it...

[Few Cloudy]

My sympathies EFCOP. When does this start taking effect?

[middlepath]

Does that mean most of the EMB145 pilots are effected or as per seniority?cheers

[springbok449]

I guess the guys from the now ex Crossair can't be that happy then...?

[BeerFly]

I guess that all are guessing.

[DCS99]

Have to get lucky with the Swiss LOTTO this weekend, come on Mrs DCS, get those numbers right for once - else we'll be shutting up shop here and heading back to Hounslow.

This is grim news.

25.02.2003

SWISS cuts fleet, route network and jobs


A package of emergency measures proposed by the executive management was approved by the SWISS Board of Directors on 24 February 2003. In Zurich, Geneva, Basel, Bern and Lugano, destinations will be reduced and routes discontinued. The fleet is to be cut by 20 aircraft: 17 regional jets, two Boeing MD-83s and one Airbus A321. These measures will also mean the loss of around 700 jobs. Swiss International Air Lines believes it is essential to react to the worsening economic situation by adjusting its route network and reducing its fleet. The changes will come into effect with the summer timetable from 30 March 2003.


The enduringly gloomy economic climate and deep crisis in the global aviation industry are having a serious negative impact on business development at SWISS and have forced the executive management to take swift action. Despite a higher market share, revenues and passenger numbers are in sharp decline on the European network.

The decisions taken last November were based on the figures for August/September 2002. Six months on, the situation has changed dramatically. A good load factor was enough to compensate for the fluctuations in yield (revenues per seat). Following the seasonal downturn in the number of passengers in November, however, this curve fell sharply against budget in December (-5%) and January (-10%) and continues to fall. Regional and short-haul routes are negative whilst long-haul routes are still performing to budget.

The generalised slump in the economy is reflected in the airline sector by a change in consumer behaviour. Former business passengers keen to make savings now tend to book Economy class. The forecasts for 2003 remain poor and there is no improvement in sight.


Fleet

The massive collapse in demand in European air travel makes adjustments to the European fleet capacity essential. SWISS is to take 20 aircraft out of operation. The aircraft involved are one Airbus A321, two Boeing MD-83s and 17 regional jets. This means the SWISS European fleet, including the Airbus A320s, will total maximum 84 aircraft.


Zurich
In Zurich, capacity adjustments will affect a total of 24 destinations. There will be one extra flight to Warsaw and Stuttgart. Frequencies on routes to London City, Graz, Hanover, Cologne, Nuremberg, Prague, Bucharest, Nice, Munich, Madrid and Barcelona will be reduced. Connections to Salzburg, Sarajevo, Tirana, Toulouse, Jersey, Guernsey, Dresden, Bremen, Turin, Bilbao and Göteborg will be discontinued. These capacity adjustments will reduce the number of seat kilometres on offer on European flights from Zurich by 12%.

Basel
In Basel, capacity adjustments will be made to a total of 18 destinations. There will be a reduction in frequencies on the routes to Hamburg, Berlin Tempelhof, Vienna, Brussels, Amsterdam, Bern and Geneva. Connections to Stockholm, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Stuttgart, Bordeaux, Marseilles, Palma de Mallorca, Florence, Toulouse, Bilbao and Seville are to be discontinued.

This will reduce the number of seat kilometres offered on European flights from Basel by 31%. There will be no transfer of destinations from Basel to Zurich. These measures are motivated purely by economic considerations rather than by any regional or political factors. The January load factor on flights from the EuroAirport in Basel was just 35%.

Geneva
In Geneva, capacity adjustments will affect six destinations. Connections to Rome will be increased, but there will be a reduction in frequencies on the Basel and Lugano routes. Connections to Alicante, Seville and Berlin are to be discontinued.
The number of seat kilometres on offer will therefore be reduced by 11%.

Bern and Lugano
Lugano will get its long-awaited early morning flight to Zurich, but the midday flight to Geneva will be cancelled. In the future there will only be one day-round-trip connection between Bern and the EuroAirport in Basel. SWISS has, however, given an undertaking to the government in Bern to make an active contribution to finding ways of connecting Bern to the Zurich hub more efficiently. The flight to Paris, whose withdrawal has already been announced, is not part of the SWISS strategy. There are too few local passengers on this route and SWISS prefers to have the long-haul passengers on its own network.


Job cuts

Up to 700 jobs will be affected: around 200 amongst cockpit crews, 200 amongst cabin crews and 300 amongst managers and ground staff. SWISS will work in consultation with the unions to find the best possible solutions. It is likely that the necessary reduction in cabin staff can be achieved via natural fluctuation alone.


Outlook

The prolonged slump in the economy and the serious difficulties in the international aviation industry mean that SWISS will not achieve its goal of breaking even in 2003. Given the uncertainty of future developments, no forecast of this year's results can be given for the time being.

[Tibesti 3415]

Swiss has announced that they are to fire another 700 employees, 400 pilots + 300 ground staff and selling 20
airplanes.
Anyone know what aircrafts they are getting rid off ?
Is it Cross Air who is taking the beating ?

[ZRH]

They said in the newspaper:
1 A321, 2 MD80, 17 fifty seaters. Will probably be the Saab2000. If I'm not mistaken, they are still getting more Embreas so it wouldnt make much sense getting rid of those. But then again, nothing really makes sense at swiss!!

[FLEXJET]

It is confirmed that 1 A321, 2 MD83 and 17 Saab 2000 will be withdrawn.
-200 pilots, 200 cabin crew and 300 ground staff will have to leave.
-11 destinations from both Zurich and Basel will be closed for the next Summer season.

There will be 106 aircraft total left in the fleet.

The load factor for January from/to Basel was only of 35% !

My guess is that the BSL hub will disappear within one year or two...
Any comment?

FLEXJET

[dr yes]

News from the horses mouth, or at least I think that's the end from which the information emerges, can be found here. (http://www.swiss.com/index/sw-nw-pr-press-releases-03.htm?newsid=20364)

Blick, Switzerland's German language daily, journalistically equivalent to The Sun in the UK, is reporting 1 Airbus 321, 2 MD83's, 12 Saab 2000 and 5 Embraer 145. No mention of the Avro RJ's widely expected to be part of this current cull, expected to be reflected in the summer schedule, set to commence March 31.

Grim news indeed. Best wishes to all.

yes.

[Few Cloudy]

Tibesti,

EFCOP has another thread on this further down the page - maybe we should merge?

Dreadful news. Things go from bad to worse. If only the disasterous and criminal Swissair management had had the guts and nouse to take this kind of action four or even three years ago, things may yet have been saved.

Looks as if the original culprits from SR management are being called to book - if they don't abscond to Brazil in the meantime...

[pointseveneight]

The downsizing now being announced is not entirely unexpected, unfortunately. Swiss is Crossair, given a new name and a new mission (National Airline with a lot of tax-bucks). When it was called into being last April, the government poured the money in to save Swissair jobs, while Swissair got another billion from the taxpayer such as to let it go down the drain in an orderly manner. Fair enough. But in order to transplant as many jobs as possible from Swissair into Crossair/Swiss, the airline was overdimensioned by such a margin that it will not fit into any alliance network, not to mention One World. The major pilot union, Swiss Pilots, saw it coming: Another 860 pilots simply were not neded. Warnings were issued to government and the company, yet the managment kept insisting it was doing the right thing. Sand was thrown into the investors (speak: taxpayers) eye, to create the fait accompli we have today.
Now, as Swissair is effectively cloned and recreated, they go about trying to get rid of everything carrying the faintest whiff of Crossair. That includes the pilots. Already in April 2002, the new pilots joining from bankrupt Swissair simply denied signing the existing collective contract, although they were invited to propose adaptations as seen fit, effectively blackmailing the management and the governement into fulfilling all their wishes to remain a separate group and call the shots in their new home, Swiss (née Crossair). Management and the Swissair pilots together then tried to arm twist the (incumbent) larger pilot body to sign a new contract, effectively robbing them of seniority, salary and making them the full risk beares for lay-offs effectively downranking them into second class. That was not accepted, of course, triggering a string of lawsuits and ugly standoffs in the media, continuing to the day. The result is two totally separate pilot groups.

So while today's redimensioning of the airline as such is one thing that is widely accepted, who will have to go is an altogether different matter. The Swissair pilots only joined in April and officially work for an expanded and rebranded Crossair. If this was not so and Swiss would be declared the product of a Crossair-Swissair merger, the French, the Belgian, the Portuguese and the German governemnt, as well as the many holders of small stakes who lost all their money in the Swissair fiasco would be on the backs of today's Swiss managers. So that's the official version, we're a new company. In house, it's quite different: One is told that this really is a merger where Swissair exercises all their rights, but, pssst, don't tell: walls have ears and the sword of damocles hangs over you in the shape of 18 billion in debt. The way the Swissair pilots behave followes this logic. The way this new airline outfit was created borders on being outright criminal. And now comes the downsizing. Guess who should pack up and go? Those who joined last? No, chums, you guessed it, the others. Those who, in the mean time, have been re-invented by Swissair as the second class “regionals” (With "regional" destinations like Kenya, India, north Africa and Iceland). With the taxpayers money, Swissair is given a new home and the "natives" are bootet out. You can imagine what sort of unrest and infighting this will spark. I cannot find a better example of how downright destructive and arrogant a cult of elitist pilots can be, endangering the very lifeboat they have been given with all it’s occupants.

What a shame.

[pecs]

Grüezi!

Which 200 SWISS drivers will be the first to go?

Well, surely after any "social and solidarity measures" such as early retirement, unpaid leave, contract out, reduced contracts, salary sacrifice, dismissal due to biased screenings, forced deportation of non-EU foreigners with standard unlimited contracts etc etc, the layoffs will occur by the industry standard of "last on first off"?

Not exactly. One would expect that the ex-Crossair drivers would be relatively safe despite their regional fleet being cut drastically. They were after all established and operating in the then Crossair(name change to SWISS July 2002) which took on around 880 would be unemployed ex-Swissair drivers 31 March 2002. These new kids on the block(albeit Airbus and MD 11 experienced) showed their gratitude and graciousness, with the help of a subserviant management, to negotiate a new "World's Best Practice" and "Industry Standard" seniority list which put most of the ex-Swissair drivers ahead of the ex-Crossair drivers. SWISS - So What Its Still Swissair!

The seniority issue is the subject of litigation before the Swiss Courts and a final non-appealable decision is expected not before May 2003. The previous Court which looked at this issue found in mid 2002 that a "discrimination" against the ex-Crossair pilots was made. Management's response was to ignore this decision and hence this latest litigation by SWISS Pilots(ex-Crossair pilots association).

Will SWISS management give 3 month notices to ex-Crossair drivers before that Court decision is handed down? Having done their best to delay this latest Court decision, management may well proceed with dismissals and attempt to pre-empt any subsequent Court decision.

Yes, the reductions are most unfortunate and terrible for those affected. However a massive reduction in capacity had to occur and was totally predicted and foreseen with the over-bloated, over-optimistic and unrealistic Business Plan which used Crossair to save a Swiss airline industry. Stay tuned for further cuts not including any possible Iraq Conflict reductions. Will the overseers and implementers of this debacle: Chairman Bouw(ex-KLM) and CEO Dose help in this latest round of cost cutting by showing their solidarity and joining the list of 700 retrenched SWISS staff? A current share price of 6 Sfr compared to 56 Sfr in late 2001 when the expansion and re-capitalisation was commenced, together with continuing losses in 2003 will probably not help their job security.

Tschüss!

[BeerFly]

PECS, Very much the truth !

Grussi !

[BeerFly]

It's the ex-SR overhead costs wich are making the regional routes unprofitable. Imagine that Crossair had 2800 employees for 80 aircraft and Swiss has 11500 employees for 131 aircraft.

I know that part of the now skipped routes had a bad SLF but some of them are always very full (eg. Salzburg or Jersey).

The above comments from PECS and pointseveneight are factual and corrects. The Studi-dude again shows his ignorant and foolish-naive attitude. Clearly a guy with some knowledge but who misses the picture completely.

[pointseveneight]

The last post by studi is typical of the prevailing Swissair arrogance. Others endulge in "pathos" while we (Swissair) tell you the facts. No way, buddy. Your big picture might just be your own:

"A main part of Crossair used to be the connecting network for Swissair longhaul. There were even strong rumours that CRX only made money in wet lease flights for SR, but I guess only CRX network managers knew exactly".


That was 20% of the Crossair fleet, to be exact. The whole of the 100 seat segment was outsourced by the SAirGroup from Swissair to Crossair, because Swissair could not make any money at all on those flights. As far as rumours go, it is also a strong held belief, that SAirGroup and Swissair at that time only worked, because Crossair was contributing what it did.


"CRX was not treated accordingly. Network reductions didn't take place. So the Swiss regional network still had the size to suit old SR longhaul network, therefore it was way too big. This oversize is now corrected".


The rest of the Crossair network was point to point flights, charters and an own hub in Basle. As Swissair collapsed and Swiss was built up, the Basle hub was shut down as traffic now concentrated in routing through the Zurich hub. On top of that, add another 27 short haul Swissair Airbusses and, of course, you are then left with too many airplanes. Nobody is contesting this. And the long haul fleet is a separarate story anyway: The fleet was inflated by the failed Hunter Strategy. Today, even with the 27 planes left over, it is way oversized and is draining money in big tubes out of the company. That's were the resizing should take place first.

"I feel sorry for every dismissed pilot, but please don't whine about elitist SR pilots, they paid their price already in 2001, now it's up to you because your network is affected".


The price mentioned consisted of retiring older pilots who already had their coffers (speak pensions) filled with millions. Of those laid off, 3/4 are back in a job and the rest got a job in Swiss. On top of that, the Swissair pilots (also those who have a job in Swiss today) pulled nearly 130 Mio out of liquidated Swissair in salary demands, while a booted baggage handler doesen't know how to feed his kids. Has Crossair been liquidated, did any Crossair pilot get anything in that manner? No, because Swiss is Crossair. It's very interesting to note that in good times, the Swissair pilots never wanted to close ranks between the pilot groups, although the benefits would have been huge. In a slight alteration of the saying "if you can't beat them, join them", the Swissair pilots used "if you can't beat them, try harder and use a club". In good times, the Crossair "colleagues" were kept out, but now as the times are not so rosy, you want them to contribute equally for the errors of Swissair. That's cynical.
So don't be surprised if you're not exactly loved.

[124.8]

M.78 and pecs: EXCELLENT!!!!

If the link to www.swissinfo.ch, look for Swissair,will give some more insight to the previous SR group mismanagement, the Belgium government and Ernest &Young report, then maybe you WILL find the responsible people in other countries, hiding...
Now comes the time where Zurich airport is not making money anymore due to less traffic. So change all connections to Zurich and therefore you find the loadfactor out of Basel at 35%. Listen to passengers complain they have to get to ZRH to get a Swiss flight to Munich, but Lufthansa flies out of Basel, where is the Swiss flight that used to be 4 times daily?
Take the managers responsible for their deeds, to court and make them return their money to the taxpayer!!!!


"The above comments from PECS and pointseveneight are factual and corrects. The Studi-dude AGAIN shows his ignorant and foolish-naive attitude. Clearly a guy with some knowledge but who misses the picture completely."

"Looks as if the original culprits from SR management are being called to book - if they don't abscond to Brazil in the meantime..."


When the point was made at a meeting with management about the size of the bussiness plan and taking so many pilots, counter arguments was made iro everything is right. And now, must the Iraqi problem be the scapegoat???????
No wonder Mr M. Suter said there is something seriously wrong in his last address to the company, and there is nepotism......
The unjust situation will continue...

[Few Cloudy]

I think that when Moritz Suter was put in charge of the Swissair group and had a look at the balances, he couldn't get out of there fast enough.

A shame that he and many others didn't take the trouble to inform themselves what was really happening to the company in their charge a whole lot earlier.

As to the pilot quarrel - why was Crossair profitable - the darling of all and the recipient of the MD-80 fleet? Because, in a Swiss kind of way, they were low cost - including much lower - some would say bread line salaries. The pilots took the terms available, or they wouldn't have joined. Swissair came from the annals of aviation history as a prestigious airline with well paid staff.

Try to integrate a high cost luxury line with a low cost local airline and you get a mess, unless you can get a good compromise. Of course everyone thinks he has compromised enough. The atmosphere between the ex SR and ex LX pilots has deteriorated to the level you can read on this page and worse. There used to be professional respect between the separate airlines - and not a little sympathy from the Swisssair pilots, for the Crossair pilots on lower salaries. Efforts were undertaken way back, at union level, to define an integrated pilot career model, where all pilots would pass through Crossair and Swissair and things would be fair for all. These efforts were always sidelined - sometimes by the Swissair/Crossair management and sometimes by the two pilot unions themselves but the basic goodwill was there.

Now, when this model could have been re-activated, the pilots are at each others' throats - everything is duplicated in middle management, with two fleets - two airlines in effect and the scene is set for disaster. Add a layoff scenario and a dash of fear and you get the picture.

Labeling one block of pilots arrogant and the others dumb won't help. You may all be flying for easyJet one day...

[Number1]

Surprised no one commented on this before. Might be a tad outdated, but talk about elitist! I fly corporate, so I was even more insulted! With the upcoming lay-offs it will no doubt be revisited.

A board member of Aeropers (ex-Swissair pilots union) writes in an article printed in the union newsletter of September or October 2002…..(it’s a very long winded article, find it here

http://www.aeropers.ch/PDFDateien/ARS_5_2002.pdf (under Gleiche Arbeit, Gleicher Lohn? Same salary for the same work?)

and I won’t translate it all) defending the position to pay ex-Crossair pilots less than ex-Swissair pilots, even for longer routes……

“….For most it is logical, that a hospital Chief of Staff will earn more than a resident doctor, a university professor more than a primary school teacher and the editor of a national newspaper more than a local reporter. Also, in sports, no one questions the lower salary of the centre at Winterthur FC (small-town Swiss football team) compared to a Ronaldo. Not everyone managing a few people can be the CEO of a corporation…..”

“Pilot does not equal pilot”…

…“Differences between the two pilot groups at Swiss are based on measurable qualities such as selection, qualification, training and experience, qualities central to other careers, that determine salary”….

…”a candidate at Swissair only qualified if, besides a minimal education (Matura or technical college and 3 languages), he also possessed the profile of a future long haul captain”…..
…”the majority of the rejected candidates went off to Basel to join Crossair”…

…”after careful selection the candidates attended 1 ½ years of pilot training. Combined with constant further education (Simulator, CRM, etc.) and constant screening, a homogenous pilot corps of high standards was developed” …..

…”at Crossair it was generally sufficient to have a valid pilot’s license, that had been obtained somewhere(!!!). Additional requirements were waived when the demand for pilots was high. Even German or strong English language was often not required. Training consisted of a ‘Schnellbleiche’ (?) of a couple of exercises in the Simulator…….This may explain the fact that the selection to a Swissair cockpit, that was attempted by the majority of ex-Crossair pilots, was unsuccessful.”…

3 more pages to go, going on and on about flying over the Atlantic, navigating around Tornadoes and Monsoons, dealing with culturally different ground personnel in Africa and Asia, aircraft size and cross-qualified airbus pilots, higher productivity….. but I am feeling sick again…..anyone else have a translated version?

I thought my first post after lurking for years would be in Jetblast….well maybe that’s where this belongs….

[middlepath]

NO.1
Very interesting article. Any response to this article from ex-crossair pilots.

[airmen]

Mr Studi "GOD",

Do you think that SWISSAIR collapsed because of CROSSAIR ?

-No!

Ex CROSSAIR pilots have to pay the price now?

-No, because if SWISS is way too big now, it is the fault of AEROPERS, having managed to force the management to accept their silly contract B-GAV with enormous salary, vacations, bonus ( if do you think to have one), at the time of the so-called negociations with the board of directors.

Where is the cost based on CROSSAIR structure? Tell me!

Your goal was to take all the money for you, because it is very hard to fall down to the level of salary of a CROSSAIR pilot! even if it is foreseen that the company will go to drain in a few time.
You do not care about CROSSAIR pilots at all, you care only about you...
But with this attitude the emergency boat will sink and you also!
Hope you can swim.

Flying European routes half empty with A320 or regional aeroplane fully booked, tell me which one is making money!
You can twist the figures as you want, the result will enlight you but it will be too late then.
:yuk:

All this story is only a political and emotional but not rational-economical matter, we are the best, we know, there is nothing to change...

Amen! and good luck...

[middlepath]

Would it be better if both crossair and swiss air would revert back to the pre-swiss airline situation as two separet companies. Then each companies could make their own adjustments as per their need. Reason being two companies with diffrent culture are not compatable. This is a wishful thinking but did anybody wish for this?

[pecs]

My understanding is that Swiss Pilots (ex-Crossair) have accepted that Long Haul (A330, MD11, A340) pilots should be remunerated higher than their Short Haul counterparts. Does Medium Haul exist and does Short Haul include the so-called "Regional Fleet"?

When this Aeropers(ex-Swissair) post above and their position is analysed, it is basically providing an argument and justification for salary based on aircraft size and range. This was an argument even rejected in Swissair in the last years with a common salary structure based on start date ignoring different types(size and range)flown(even considering mixed fleet flying). Maybe now to its detriment? This increasing pay for larger aircraft is not being applied within the Airbus and MD11 fleet today where a common salary structure exists. This argument when extended to its logical conclusion would mean increasing and different salary for ERJ145(49 seat), Saab2000(50), EJ170(70), RJ85/100(82/97), EJ195(108), MD83(156-163), A319(110-126), A320(134-150), A320Swiss Sun(168), A321(170-186), A330(196-230), A340(228), MD11(241).

The question is "very simply" according to career model, type and seat freeze, fluctuation, retraining cost, new aircraft introduction/ replacement of old aircraft, common type rating, mixed fleet flying, aircraft size and range, market, routes and yield difference, technology, speed, cost per available seat-km, cost per available tonne-km etc etc etc, how do you wish to categorize aircraft and salary? SWISS management and Aeropers argue that no difference exists between an A319(110 seat) and a MD11(241 seat), and Swiss Pilots argue there is no difference between a RJ100(97 seat) and a A319(110 seat).

In the end one can reinvent the wheel many times, Benchmark until the cows come home, seek out World's Best Practice, apply Industry Standard as if a single one exists, and arrive at something which provides a competitve advantage and flexibility for the company and is somehow acceptable to the pilot unions. You can also throw in for good measure some concept of Safety verses Cost Structure. Was the previous Crossair cost structure too cheap, whereas the new SWISS cost structure in the current market is undoubtedly way too high? Current management refuse to provide details (even taking into account commercially sensitive info) on relative yields(as opposed to some very generic SLF info) and of a breakdown and allocation of costs to enable any sensible comment on the latest 20 aircraft reduction.

The above Aeropers reference also conveniently ignores the fact that ex-Swissair pilots were newly employed by Crossair 31 March 2002 without undergoing any selection, qualification, screening or training by Crossair(now called SWISS). This situation allowed around 880 pilots to join a company and fly under an AOC without ANY standards being applied. Yes, the FOCA/BAZL approved this. These would be unemployed Aeropers pilots fought for and won the support of the new Board of Directors and ex-Crossair management for a system they previously found abhorrent. "Don't do as I do, but do what I say!"

The whole process is not helped by a weak, pliant and incompetent management, an overall Business Plan(if one now actually exists?) which is based on Charity, Social Welfare, Politics and Emotion, and not on any economic argument or concept of financial responsibility. How prophetic for the original plan to be called Phoenix with SWISS flying out of the ashes of the bankrupted Swissair only to nose dive back to the nest to inflame itself at an unprecedented rate. Finally there exists two seemingly irreconcilable pilots groups; one whose EGO(highlighted above) is simply hypocritical and moreover dangerous, the other whose raised expectations and demands in relation to salary and conditions ignore economic reality. Aeropers may have won the power game, SWISS Pilots may win the legal argument too late, and the over blown SWISS will continue to downsize all areas in the future as its cash reserves plummit. Switzerland and SWISS have provided a new airline industry standard: How to make a huge loss, start with a huge amount of money!

Tschüssi

[Momo]

Is there any public comparison table anywhere that shows the number of employees per commuter, short-haul, and long-haul aircraft across different airlines? Just wondering what "best in class" is, from that perspective. I realize not all comparisons are meaningful, as each airline decides to subcontract different things, and it is difficult to take that into account.

Momo

[Robert Vesco]

Middlepath,

Two separate companies is a no go. It would look too much like the good old SAir Group and the creditors still have a, roughly 18 billion Swiss Franks, axe to grind.

Even in the present situation, the "expansion" of Crossair into Swiss is already very difficult to explain to Air Lib, Sabena and all the other creditors, as it looks an awfull lot like the ´virtually bankrupt´ SAir Group. The low Crossair cost structure has been completely abandoned and the seniority list agreed upon by managment and Aeropers (rejected by the CCP/SPA) refered to ´date of entry´ into... you guessed it : the SAir Group and not Crossair. :eek:
Expansion of Crossair ? A merger between Crossair and Swissair ? It appears as if Swissair simply hijacked Crossair, re-named the company Swiss (Swiss = Swissair-air) and is trying very hard to throw out the former employees.

So far no ´blue letters´ (pink slips) have been posted because the seniority issue is still not solved. Within a few weeks a judge from the Basel Court of Arbitration will come with a verdict.

We´ll see what happens next. If we lose, then at least we have tried our best. If we win, all hell will break lose ! Brace before impact !

[efcop]

point one
I fail to see the point of constantly bickering about who may or may not have survived and about who is doing a better job or is better qualified. I'm kind of sick having to read those kind of posts as they don't offer any solution.

point two
don't expect the company to wait for a court verdict. those letters will go out in two weeks and it would be nice if the union would finally show some responsibilty and begin to help to construct a layoff plan for those affected.

point three
I hope for our all sake that the company will survive the next 24 months because if it doesn't then a lot of posts will with hindsight seem rather silly. what will it matter then who has the shinier uniform gathering dust in the cupboard...

[middlepath]

It is confirmed 200 pilots will be in the street.Does anyone know the amount and duration of unemployment benefit in Switzerland ?

[DCS99]

For 'B' Permit holders who have been resident for longer than 1 year, I've been told it's 18 months unemployment benefit at 70% of base salary, 80% if you have children/wife, with a maximum of 7000CHF monthly.

In other words, a lot better than the UK, but the proviso is that Swiss companies do not normally give Severance pay.

Info comes from ex-pats who lost jobs after Swissair collapse.

[middlepath]

That is not bad at all, have a long paid leave before starting new career.

[max endurance]

Dcs99 do you have any idea about , the unemployment money foreigners living in the EU will get ?

But to add a little to this forum: basically the "old" swissair was saved because Crossair flew 40% wet lease for swr, with saving swr ,crossair would be saved as well.
Now they are reducing the amount of flights from basel more and more, its likely that we will end up losing 60% of our flights (from basel).......This is all part of a very corrupt and political influenced plan.

Its time that SWISSPILOTS bangs on the table with their fist and finally takes some action, but off course that will not happen, the swiss mentality is not like that, striking is allmost considered a capital crime.....

And so it will happen that the last 200 pilots will just lose their job, and the union doesn`t do anything, they want to stick to the rules and play it via the court ,which suprisingly takes ages to get to a verdict, and when it will finally comes to a verdict it will be one wich can be explained both ways.
and in the mean time maybe 400 pilots will have lost their jobs...
but at least it has been played acoording to the rules.........

[N380UA]

:yuk:

Deppen, alle samt!

Lying in the trenches, fire from just about everywhere and our fine pilots are knocking in their heads. Great!! Ya'll carry on like that! Hey, what do I care I'm already out and well established. But frankly, I’m getting tired of all this childish “hi said, she said”.

Carry on like this! go belly up, yet again! completely ruin aviation in Switzerland. Ohh, and for any of you in the strong believe that the state and industries will pull your cart of bull out of the mud again rest assured it won’t happen!

Good luck in finding a job as comfortable, flying missionaries through the bush. Crack out the old C208 manual already, slightly different specs. than a warm and comfy A320.

[126,7]

Except that it wasnt a comfy, warm A320, but 17 comfy, warm Saab2000 and two comfy, warm MD80s. The A321 crew is not losing their job!

[gravitysux]

N380UA

If your flying Vans after 320s congratualtions...and enjoy!!!
Youve got one of those fantastic T shirts: BEEN THERE DONE THAT;
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!!
Bon Chance!!:cool:

[middlepath]

will the added emb145 type rating make smart swiss instructors more maketable than with their saab 340.

[DCS99]

Sorry don't know what happens if you're living in the EU.
(I assume you fly out of Basel and live in France like most of the
British Engineers seem to do?)

The folks I knew who got the axe were all Züri based Swissair Group staff. I'll ask around.

[N380UA]

126,7

I wasn’t referring to those that are being laid of but rather the destruction of BOTH pilot corps by their BOTH immature actions, hence 320s 330s and for some the 11s.

But you’re right of course it’ll be the comfy 2000ers first. For those unfortunate souls there is nothing that can be done. But all the others ought to start to get their act together.

My posts may seem written on the harsh side of things though I didn’t mean to be condescending at all, merely stating the obvious and hoping to avoid ALL flyers sitting on the ground whining to be up there .

[Robert Vesco]

N380UA

You don´t seem to completely understand that there is a huge battle for survival going on within Swiss.

It´s more then about a "he said, she said" situation.

From the ex-SR camp, they have tried to discredit us in every way possible and tried to rob us from our seniority with only one goal in mind : SWISS is for ex-SR pilots only.

The only defence for ex-Crossair pilots against this was to take legal action.

Ofcourse to an outsider it all looks the same. If I look through the various threads here on pprune, they all seem to go back to the same old "he said, she said" whether it´s about easyJet, Ryanair, KLM UK, Swiss, BA etcetera.

I don´t think you would appreciate it if an outsider would tell you : "oh, stop complaining at United, just hand in 30% of your already large pay check, and get on with it" or "if you lose your job, too bad, just brush up your CFII knowlegde and start flight instructing again for $10/hour." :yuk:

[skypointer]

Sorry to spoil your SWISS-beating party...

I don´t think you would appreciate it if an outsider would tell you : "oh, stop complaining at United, just hand in 30% of your already large pay check, and get on with it"

Nice words RV, only that you haven't given anything so far, while those (in this forum) much beaten ex-Swissair pilots actually have given 35% of their salary - on top of 30% lay-offs that is...:(

Now let me tell you a few facts:

CCP denied 16% pay increase as not sufficient - they want the same salaries for a Saab pilot as for an MD11 pilot (as - according to CCP - the only difference between the two is, that longhaul pilots leave their Autopilot on a little longer :} )

CCP also desires factual protection from dismissals, as according to them all 840 ex-Swissair pilots would have to go before any of them was layed off. This in spite of the fact that the Crossair fleet was hugely oversized from the start (I have been poining this out for more than a year). What CCP wants is that ex-Swissair staff not only has to pay for Swissair's mistakes (what they already did), but also for Crossair's, now that they are corrected. In the meantime CCP pilots cannot be dismissed, have higher salaries and fly the big planes (according CCPseniority). Why for gods sake doesn't AEROPERS agree to this plan?!?:rolleyes:

CCP is unwilling to do the least bit for the survival of SWISS. They do not show up to union talks, they seem to try to scare away our passengers with statements about CCP-pilots fitness to fly, and they even ran to court because SWISS wanted them - as all other employees, including ex-Swissair always did - to pay something for their airport-parkings. The last point IMHO shows CCPs state of mind remarkably well!

CCP argues that a Seniority Number according to SAir Lines - which Swissair and Crossair were part of - will make SWISS liable for SAir Groups depts. To think that pilot seniority will make a difference after SWISS took over 2/3 of Swissair's employees, aircraft and infrastructure and its whole know how without paying a penny seems rather naive to me!

There have been some who said the two unions behave childish. While I'd rather not comment on CCP, I have to say that I don't see AEROPERS fit in here. AEROPERS does everything to support the management in making SWISS a safe and profitable airline. I hope that the CCP members with some sense of resposibility and reason will hinder their union from destroying their employer the same way as CCP destroyed its goodwill within SWISS and Switzerland...

Just a little quiz for the seniority specialists:
If all ex-SR get an entry date of 31.03.2002, which pilots fly which aircraft, who is Captain and who First Officer and who will be dismissed? All have the same entry date and there is no possibility of direct entry Captains. Funny situation! May I guess the CCP solution? Get rid of all ex-SR and the problem is solved! Why is AEROPERS to stupid to see the simplicity and beauty of this solution??? :=

[Robert Vesco]

Hi Skypointer !

I´m not going to (again) start replying to everything in your post. There are enough threads on PPRuNe already about that ! ;)

We´ll see what happens next. Aeropers has bet on one horse (SAir Group seniority, with no compromises) and it now appears that this horse is losing while the downsizing begins and the Court of Abitration will produce a verdict before the end of the month.

Maybe some "seniority specialist" can remind Skypointer what happens to a seniority number when you join another company. :rolleyes:

[skypointer]

Are you talking about the same threads where you stated that the SWISS Longhaoul fleet was way to big while ex-Crossair was just fine and profitable?:confused:

Now the court seems to be your last hope. But while you never know what stupidity comes next from our dear lawyers, it will certainly not safe any CCP jobs - whatever they decide. Either SWISS is right and the jobs are history or the court rules in favor of CCP and SWISS is history if it follows the verdict. Sad bud true. What do you prefere?

Again, just hypotetically: Who do you dismiss if all ex-SR have the same entry date 31.03.02, as CCP demands? All?

Obviously you ran out of arguments!

[Few Cloudy]

When I see what deep resentments there are here, I take my hat off who those people try to defuse the Middle East and Ireland

Extreme attitudes like that will get no-one anywhere.

Is it too late?

[Saab 2000 Driver]

Are you talking about the same threads where you stated that the SWISS Longhaoul fleet was way to big while ex-Crossair was just fine and profitable :confused: Let me join the party ! Sure, the European ex-Crossair routes were doing fine ! WERE doing fine, until Swiss decided to kill our load factors by offering discountet tickets if passengers decide to fly via ZRH, instead of BSL. Everywhere I go, I usually ask the redcap how many passengers are going to ZRH on the Airbus, and the numbers are so low, it´s scary ! :eek: Tell me these skypointer, if the 50 seaters (49 for the E145) is already too big for the European market, then how much too big is the Airbus 320 for the European market ? :eek:

Salut

[Robert Vesco]

No Skypointer I have not run out of arguments and I´m sure neither have you. It´s just that we have said and heard them all before. I´m sick of writing them down again. Do a search for our usernames and you will come up with my point of view.
For as far as the euro routes are concerned, I agree with S2000 Driver. Too lazy to write it out. If the Saab is too big, then the A320 must be huge (yield and load factor wise) , but strangely nobody even thinks about reducing the number of LuftBusses.

By the way, how well is Long Haul doing ? Nobody knows because Swiss refuses to reveal any relevant (YIELD !!) figures, and likes to concentrate on load figures. "Johannesburg and Rio have a load figures of bla bla bla percent !" Can´t wait to read the next Ernst & Young report (http://www.nzz.ch/2003/01/24/wi/page-newzzDBBWSEHF-12.html) on Swiss in a few years.

Let´s just accept that we don´t get along and that the SWISS ´Biosphere project´ has failed. We will see what the future might (or might not) bring to us.

Who knows, maybe one day we will sit next to each other during a new job interview, or in the cockpit ! :cool: ;) :p

Ciao !

[DCS99]

Apologies to others in the 2003 SR-LX bomb lobbing competition - makes the bitter stories I was told years after the BOAC-BEA merger seem tame in comparison - I can't send Max a private e-mail. So I have to put this here:

I did ask around and no one knew for sure, but the base feeling was that if you pay Swiss taxes, you get Swiss unemployment benefit. If you don't you won't. Einfach.

On my old Swissair payslip it said "UI Contribution 1.5%" which is now "Unemployment Insurance 1.25%" on the slip from the cowboys I presently work for. I presume you don't pay that as you reside in the EU?

Do check it out locally and wish you all the best. Cheers

[BeerFly]

Hi Skypointer, you are a funny guy, HAHAHAHA !

Unfortunately you're stupid Swissair is dragging us under as well.

That's the real story now, this monster company with it's monster costs is taking us all down.

What a waist.

[concordino]

very Sad to read that 17 of their Concordinos( Saab2000) are being phased out.

best of Luck to all the crews who worked on them.:(

[BlueSky]

Any dismiss will be done according seniority, this has been confirmed by the company. If they don't comply with this, they will face another court case!!

To SkyPointer:

It seems that you have no idea about the rules of a seniority!!

Position in the list is given by your entry date (31.03.2002) and your AGE !! so the older EX-SR pilot will be the first one after the very last CRX pilot.

CCP offered a zipper to Aeropers, unfortunately, this was turned down...

Aeropers must now face the legal way...

You also said SB20 pilots asked for the same salary as a MD11 !!!

Why a 319 pilot at Swiss has the same salary as a MD11 ??

SB20 should be paid as 319/320/321/ERJ145/BAE/MD80 European fleet

[skypointer]

BeerFly: your posting speaks for itself...

BlueSky: sure the dismissals will be according to seniorty - OC1 seniority that is. You seem not to have noticed yet that we have two seniority lists OC1 and OC2. And you as well seem to be unable to accept that it was CCP that turned down a common seniority list. They didn't even have the guts to present it to its members...

Saab 2000 Driver: If not enough passangers can be found for an Airbus, then it will surely be easy to fill a slow, narrow and noisy Saab - Especially if on the next stand is a Germanwings A320 or an Easy B737 that offers better comfort and a clean safety record for half the price! I'd recommend a reality check...

RV: You may be right that all was said between you and me before and I noticed long ago that you do not listen to my arguments. But I wanted to inform the eventual outsider reading this thread of some facts. The postings seemed a little onesided to me. I gave up trying to find any common ground with CCP members after the disaterous swiss culture course. It was quite clear there that CCP just wanted our jobs and our salaries and the only thing they expected us to do was to keep the planes (and therefore the company) in the air and give all our know-how away until we could be replaced by some ex-Crossair guy - who of course was instructed to fly an Airbus by a soon to be dismissed ex-Swissair instructor... Well, if you really believe this will work out for you: good luck.

Perhaps we'll meet once in a job intervew but we'll hardly be flying in the same cockpit - you obviously won't accept me as your captain and your dreams of you being mine will never come true either, sorry! Perhaps its better that way - for safety's sake...

[BlueSky]

There is 2 Seniority list.

OC2 Seniority list,LX pilots not included as they refused the BGAV and by the way we voted on it.

OC1 Seniority, valid since 1996 and stating that ANY pilot entering Crossair (Swiss) will join at the bottom...

The court already said how to fix our little problem legally and then they offered a compromise, a zipper. As this was rejected by Aeropers, we have now to follow the legal path. And remember, our contract was signed way before the brand new B-GAV.

SkyPointer, please answer this question :

Why wouldn't you accept a Zipper as a final solution??

[Stumpie]

If I read this correctly, SWISS are now in trouble and intend to cut cost by getting rid of a number of aircraft and hence pilots. Crossair pilots are of the opinion that the ex-Swissair pilots should be the ones to lose their jobs first, as they joined SWISS and in their opinion SWISS = Crossair! Problem is, the aircraft that SWISS will be getting rid of, are nearly all regional (Crossair), but never mind, even though this is supposedly a cost cutting exercise, the powers that be will agree with this CCP view, lay off the ex-Swissair pilots and retrain Crossair pilots (by ex-Swissair flight instructors) onto the now vacant seats on Airbus and MD11's. SURE! And pigs might fly too! With all the problems that have surfaced with the emergence of Swiss caused mainly by the intransigence of BOTH unions, I think the management will be only too glad to find a neat solution. What bets, that in the very near future, Switzerland again has a regional airline called Crossairand an international one called SWISS - operated by 100% ex-Swissair equipment and pilots.

[BlueSky]

SWISS, swissair pilots, swissair aircrafts and swissair profit and Swissair 18 billions debt... GOOD LUCK

[BeerFly]

Quote : Saab 2000 Driver: If not enough passangers can be found for an Airbus, then it will surely be easy to fill a slow, narrow and noisy Saab - Especially if on the next stand is a Germanwings A320 or an Easy B737 that offers better comfort and a clean safety record for half the price! I'd recommend a reality check...

Skypointer you are a sick human being by again comming out with a safety record; don't forget the past mate. We'll be dragging some stories out of the dirt if you want.

By the way it's better to make money in a noisy and slow Saab and earn money on the route than doeng it with you Airbus and loosing money big-time.

Succer !

[Robert Vesco]

Posted by Skypointer : Perhaps we'll meet once in a job intervew but we'll hardly be flying in the same cockpit - you obviously won't accept me as your captain and your dreams of you being mine will never come true either, sorry! Perhaps its better that way - for safety's sake... By automatically assuming that YOU would be the captain, you have once more illustrated the selfinflated ego of the average Swissair pilot ! ;)

[EL_CORRUPTO]

By the way gents

Ever noticed what keeps SWISS flying for the time being ?
Taxpayers money and 3rd party funding from industrial companies. What a great confidence they must have to see such a bunch of specific loosers in this forum fighting each other like maniacs on the very lowest level.
For those bloody idiots on both sides (OC1 and OC2), I would wish SWISS goes down the drain. You definitely need a cold shower and a wakeup call, guys ! I really wonder how psychos like you made it up to a flight deck job ??!
For the remainder workforce of SWISS, I wish all the best for a sustainable and healthy future.

Cheers

[middlepath]

The reality is Swiss will go down one way or the other. Then Switzerland will probably be able to sustain a smaller than former cross air regional airlines. Rason being; size of the country,cut throat competition, high oil price, uncertainty of war and on going fight among the pilots.

Thank god I am out in time, wish good luck to the rest and hopefully job prospect will improve before unemployment benefit runs out.

[N380UA]

EL_CORRUPTO

Thank you for representing my proclivities to the point.

One constructive thought though. How about listing a total f/ATP time, regardless of where it was accumulated, regard that time as experience relevant to the company and dismiss on these premises those with the lowest time at hand?

All parties involved can save face and perhaps to some extend the company can rely on those pilots with most time under their belt.

[max endurance]

Why oh why is it, that our dear management is downsizing in the regional fleet?
Other airlines are using the smaller aircraft more instead off the bigger planes,
KLM announced a few days ago to fly more with the small fleet....due to this economic recesion.
In the states all regionals are booming while the big mother companies are strugling.....

The main problem of our company is the overhead, its way to big !
Start with that and you'l save money.
Other problem is aiming at passengers willing to pay more for more service at a luxury airline........in days when things economically are going really bad.............people want to save money.....!!!!
So they rather fly with easy jet or whatever.
But not the expensive SWISS


MAX



ps DGS i do as well pay 1.25% UI...thanx for info.

[Robert Vesco]

I don´t understand why some people try to hold the 2 pilot corps entirely responsible for the succes or failure of the whole company.

Sure, it´s important to have a stable and motivated workforce, but let´s not exagerate our role as pilots.

Most passengers (especially foreign pax) have absolutely NO idea about the labour dispute within Swiss, and even the Swiss passengers know very little about it. The only thing they read and hear in the media is that André Dosé is named Entrepreneur of the Year 2002 (http://www.swiss.com/index/sw-nw-pr-press-releases-02.htm?newsid=18987) :rolleyes: and that all is going perfectly according to the famous business plan. (http://www.swiss.com/index/sw-nw-pr-press-releases-02.htm?newsid=16938)
All that passengers want is to get safely and comfortably from A to B for a reasonable price and have access to a large (where is the alliance Mr Dosé ? :confused: ) network with a good frequent flyer program.

The passengers pay our salaries and are the final judges about our product. So if the product is not very good (lot´s of complaints about inflight service and NO membership of an international alliance), connections are missed (ZRH is not a suitable airport for a hub: noise regulations + intersecting runways :( ) and the home market is small (Switzerland, need I say more), then an airline will lose customers and fail to make money. As pilots there is very little we can do about that. Simple as that !

[Aviation Trainer too]

Well said Robert V! It is the one and only answer it is the passenger who decides and pays your bills...

[skypointer]

For once I agree with you RV. The passengers will be the final judges. Even if the two corps would be the best buddies it wouldn't safe a economically doomed company - I don't say SWISS necessarily is one.

But a struggling company can get its final blow if costumers lose confidence in it due to the unreasonable behaviour of a pilot union. And CCP's deeds and statments certainly won't enhance our passengers confidence that they are folwn by competent and responsible pilots....

By automatically assuming that YOU would be the captain, you have once more illustrated the selfinflated ego of the average Swissair pilot !
What a great piece of generalization! Congratulations, you should become a psychiatrist. I just said I prefere not to be your Copilot - I have my reasons which are not based on seniority! But by getting pissed at the implication that I might be your Captain you prove that you thought it would be the other way 'round. Now what does that tell us about your ego? Oops!

BeerFly: Soccer? No thanks I prefere Icehockey! Or did you mean something else? Beer before flightduty is not a good idea and neither is beer before writing...

SkyPointer, please answer this question : Why wouldn't you accept a Zipper as a final solution??
Sure, BlueSky, fair question. Its no fair solution, because CRX wasn't restrucured before entering SWISS, while the SR part was. We have dismissed 400 pilots because we were to big. You have dismissed none so far. But it was clear form the start that you have been to big too - after all your CRX was blown up by the same megalomaniac Bruggi/MS/SAirLines management. So why should we pay for the CRX mistakes while you profit from them? Furthermore a SR Captain with some 15 years SR seniority as a Copliot of a CRX F/O - now SWISS Zipper-Captain - of some 3 or 4 years CRX seniority wouldn't be a good idea either (except for CCP of course). The zipper can be no solution!
So is two corps a better solution? Hardly! As you have seen with the Charter A320's this leaves to much open questions in case of the phase in/out of Aircraft. The next problem will arise with the new Embraer if sombody decides they will replace the A319. Two companies? Won't solve the last problem either - just some stupid court roulings...
I never said it was easy and I can understand your fears that you'll have to pay for further reduction in the longhaul sector. What we need is to get the unions talking again - or for the first time. They have to find a solution. Unfortunately CCP chose to embark on pure obstruction instead! This politics, if continued, actually just leaves the question if CCP, in the course of its selfdistruciton, kills SWISS as well.

[airmen]

What a level around here!

What you criticise on the others is your short coming...

To sumarize a bit:

If Swiss is sinking now, this is mainly due to faulty management which said that 26/26 was a correct size...and taking over the jobless Swissair pilots with their Busses and their own-made contract under the pressure of politics.
The new Swiss should have been based under Crossair cost structure, it was one of the prerogative from the politics...
Promesses from the management to have only one pilot corps...
Fair conditions for everybody...

Where are we now:

Size too big for any alliance, size too big for the Swiss market, Zurich overcrowded, luxurious service! for luxurious people! during recession time!!! and with destination excellence!!!


Two pilot corps, on one camp they should be happy, they where jobless, went reemployed and for some of them they even had a payrise, on the other camp, they where doing not so bad, expending, improving contract condition and now are fooled with their own management, by the others, and still work under the same conditions as before. Less salary for same sector flown, less vacation, no bonus, no correct seniority list!!!
Result: two corps of pilots fighting against each others.


( Skypointer, CCP tried several times to approach AP when we where two different company with no answer!) remember...

And "some stupid court ruling" which are part of the legal affair for business are also there because AP did not wanted to talk about this...




Very poor judgement of the situation from the management...:rolleyes:

If you start a new brand, would start big and then reduce? NO!

First you start small and then when things look well you expend maybe!

Why did they started so big and full of arrogance?

Because we are facing a Clone of Swissair, it is very trendy nowadays...

Keep it small, friendly and reliable.

[BlueSky]

SkyPointer :

I agree our unions should talk about our problem, but the dialog is not possible anymore.

You Said : we were too big, we had to resize.

Now, CRX regional is too big ???? maybe it meens that we took too many A319/320 on board ????? if the regional sector is too big, this is due to the fact that we have too many REGIONAL A320/A321 !!

Phoenix plus stated 3 options.. Remenber ??

0/0/82 (82 regionals)
10/10/82 (10 LH and 92 Regionals)
26/26/82 (10 LH and 108 Regionals !)

Where is the mistake if we have too many regional aircrafts ??? we took too many A320, a 26/5/82 was maybe the best solution...

Do you really think the A320 is a medium or long haul compared to Jumbolino, Saab and MD80 ???

The zipper is quite fair as you will keep your position within Swiss, for example, a SF/O will still be a SF/O, same thing for a CMD... Fair for everyone.

If aeropers want to wait for a court result where the issue is already well known, this is not my problem, if I would fly for OC2, I would stress my union to accept a compromise (Zipper) before the Cathedrale fall down on your head...

Even on OC2 ID badge, the entry date is March 31st 2002, don't you think there is a legal reason behind it???

[pecs]

History is always written by the winners. But is it history or hysterics and revisionism that Skypointer and Aeropers are indulging in?

Skypointer's arguments in relation to seniority are interesting to say the least. SWISS management have only ever stated that they agreed with a seniority system based both on SWR start date and CRX start date which discriminated against CRX pilots because "we think its a good idea" and the zipper system or modified zipper is "not feasible". It is no wonder SWISS is in such trouble with management capable of such powers of reason and thorough analysis and interpretation.

No attempt by management was or has been made to look seriously at and analyse other models and options. In fact management have provided no justification or reason to the ex-CRX pilot corps for the new seniority system they tried to introduce 31 March 2002 and which is now disputed in the courts.

In the aftermath of the SWR collapse and bankruptcy, the government funded the continuation of SWR(in liquidation) flights and Crossair wet leased the rest. The Airbuses and MD 11s were leased directly by, and the pilots were newly employed by Crossair effective 31/03/2002. Skypointer continues the lie that these experienced Airbus and MD 11 drivers suffered a pay and conditions cut. What absolute nonsense. They did not have a job. They had a choice, to look for work elsewhere or join the social welfare queue. They accepted a new job with a different company called Crossair. They were new employees of the existing and non-bankrupted Crossair. These ex-SWR drivers accepted a contract and job with CRX that essentially allowed those remaining SWR pilots after the cull to keep driving their same aircraft and to keep their seats.

But no, this was not enough. At SWR these flying gods had a world's best practise seniority system based on start date within Swissair. However these new kids on the block, once they were joining their new company called Crossair, said that such a seniority system based on company start date was "no fair solution" and not good enough for them. These Chuck Yeagers of European Aviation were prepared to "live and die" under a seniority system at Swissair but found this same world's best practise system at their new company Crossair unacceptable. Please spare us from such cant, hypocrisy and double standards.

One must applaud Aeropers' efforts at self-interest and destruction of Crossair and SWISS. Their destructive and arrogant attitude that destroyed and bankrupted Swissair must of course also be brought across to destroy and bankrupt Crossair and SWISS. At least in this respect they are very caring and sharing and consistent.

Moreover the most pitiful and destructive outcome of this astonishing back-flip by Aeropers, is that Crossair/SWISS management got sucked into accepting their demands. Management chose to ignore and abuse the existing Crossair pilot contract and to attempt to provide a new seniority system that put most of the existing Crossair pilots on the bottom.

As has been pointed out correctly, the ex-Crossair pilots association (CCP, now called SWISS Pilots) suggested and offerred options at the negotiations late 2001/early 2002. Yes, it was CRX management, with probably unprecedented Board of Directors input, that came with the "Diktat" and "non negotiable" new seniority system that abused and discriminated against the existing CRX pilots.

Of course to Aeropers and SWISS management the end always justifies the means. It is quite OK to ignore the law, to disregard existing contracts, and to discriminate. It may come as a surprise to some ex-Swissair pilots that it is possible to run a safe and successful airline whilst complying with the law. Sadly it is this Swissair and ENRONesque attitude to corporate ethics demonstrated and executed brilliantly by Aeropers and SWISS management that will destroy SWISS as well. MIGHT is not always RIGHT. Skypointer at least honestly points out the megalomania that existed at Swissair. Why did they have to bring this attitude to Crossair and SWISS?

Ah Phoenix, what will the new Swissair/SWISS Version III look like that flies out from the ashes of the already moribund and corrupted Version II?

[skypointer]

Oh what great piece of reasoning. Poor law observing, highly profitable and safe CRX was hijacked be some selfimoprtant, arrogant, extortionate and unsafe SR pilots who destroyed poor CRX and its Saint Moritz, who would otherwise have porspered with 82 (soon about than 200) regional aircraft operating out of small Switzerland with no longhaul network. Well, if you really believe this crap, then there's really no common ground for further discussion!

Fact is that the final decision whether SWISS is an organic expasion of CRX (from some 3'000 to above 10'000 employees within a few weeks) or a merger of CRX and part-SR will not be decided by a BSL-biased amateur court but a some foreign courts. And pilot seniority will surely play no role there...

Fact is that (not so) Saint Moritz has been demasked as a law bending, unscrupulous megalomaniac, who has perhaps killed SWISS before it started by ordering almost 200!!! aircraft and who is trying to save his skin now by delaying the CRX accident reports forever.

Fact is that CCP walked out of the GAV negotiations and didn't show up at managements union talks.

Fact is that the investors gave their money to keep a longhaul network out of Switzerland and not to save CRX.

Fact is that the famous low CRX cost structure never existed. The best payed regional pilots in Europe flying about 35 block hours a month tell a totally different story. With SR gone, CRX had to pay for the first time for its sales organisation and was left without the profitable wet lease contracts. In other words they had to pay for their overhaed for the first time. All this ended in a loss of 300 million SFr. in only 3 month!!! That's EBIT loss, meaning without paying for aircraft lease and before paying taxes.

Fact is that our competitors are flying A320's and B737's and our passengers (they pay our salaries, as RV said correctly) demand similar comfort on our aircraft. Neither our Antonovinos or Embrios nor the old MD80s and certainly not our Saab can mesure up here. Perhaps the new Embraer will be better, I don't know.

Fact is that the german maket - once one of the most profitable for SR - was totally destroyed by CRX in less than 2 years. Whether this has anything to do with your safe, law observing CRX producing 4 accidents - only in this market - in the same time, I leave up to you to decide...

If you really wan't to have your famous low cost structure, I'd suggest you look what the low cost carriers are doing. How do you like this: Ground duty or unpayed leave for unlimited time for first officers, without the company being obliged to give any reason or to observe seniority! What do you think what the average blockhours per month in OC1 would be in such a company? And how many CCP members would get nothing on their paychecks by the end of the month? That's what low cost structure looks like! Luckily CRX never had this and hopfully we all will never have to work for such a company...

[BlueSky]

You see, there is no chance for negociations anymore, we can't find an agreement, even here on the forum...

The only valid FACT without hidden number, seat load factor(what a joke) is that SWISS is CROSSAIR.

Crossair A.G became Swiss. So it looks like the CCP contract is still valid for all pilots enterning Crossair...

I still believe that the zipper will be the best option for everybody, nobody really loose, look at your collegue from Sabena, they didn't have the same chance as you!!! and DAT pilots are on top of the seniority today... This will happend at swiss when the court will decide so.

For info, we don't fly 35 hrs per month, this is a strategy from management, have a look at the master crew plan..

I gave you an example:
SB20
GVA - THF 1094
THF - GVA 1095
GVA - THF 1096
THF - GVA 1097

Duty time calculated 11h45
Block time 7.8

looks similar to a GVA - JFK....

[skypointer]

I don't wanna enter a pissing contest! You obviously have no idea of longhaul flights, jet lag and what a few sleepless nights in a cockpit do to you. But look at the MD80 rosters. And how many such days you have per month? Or calculate the number of pilots per aircraft in OC1 and compare it with the A320s... Still think you are so productive? No? I didn't say it was your fault. Management chooses to solve the problems it is able to - not many these days I fear.

The only thing I hear from you is court, court, court. One of the first things they tell you in lawscool is, that the law has nothing to do with right or wrong or common sense. Its just a set of rules and there are many ways to interprete them. If our dear amateur court publishes its decision we will see what happens. Last time everybody thought he was the winner. Nothing happened. This time we will see how many interpretations will be possible and how many ways to implement, or bypass, those rulings will be left open.

Your problem is that you still think in terms of winners and loosers (and of course you assume you deserve to be the winners), while there obviously are no winners in this ****ty game. Everybody has to give or there won't be a future for swiss aviation. There will be no further chance. Face it.

[Robert Vesco]

You obviously have no idea of longhaul flights, jet lag and what a few sleepless nights in a cockpit do to you. Ah, skypointer the expert, talking again. Sure, you´re right, most of us (but not all of us) don´t know much about flying long range, but why does that all over sudden make you the expert about regional flying ? Your comparison: ´we in OC 2 fly more blockhours then you in OC1´is really pathetic. You can fly ZRH-MUC and ZRH SZG every day all month long, be very tired, and ´only´ end up with 40-50 blockhours. At the same time you can fly 2x ZRH-LAX in the same month with roughly the same number of blockhours. I´m not saying that long range is easier, nor am I saying that short range is tough and we should have the MD11 salary. I´m merely saying that we all fly what we have to fly in order to build a network that passengers like. The amount of blockhours at the end of the month does not matter. Are you one of those little children who always think that more/bigger=better.


One of the first things they tell you in lawschool is, that the law has nothing to do with right or wrong or common sense. Its just a set of rules and there are many ways to interprete them. If our dear amateur court publishes its decision we will see what happens. One of the key elements of s free society is that there is a constitution and that people respect the law. Why do you keep on refering to the Court of Arbitration as an "amateur court ?" You don´t seem to have much respect for your colleagues, the company you work for, the law, nor for the official legal institutions in your country. Welcome to Banana Republic Schweiz ?

[skypointer]

Sorry to disappoint you RV - I don't fly the MD11. I have flown my share of shorthaul in my career and still do. Does that make me an expert? I don't care as long as we have experts like Sepp Moser... But it certainly qualifies me for this board. My record planned blockhours was 115 in one month - all shorthaul. Although I had to opt out of this one as it was illegal, I guess I know what a tough shorthaul month means.

I don't have respect for my collegues? I don't know what makes you think that, but it was you who wrote about the selfinflated ego of the average Swissair pilot. It is your right to think I'm an asshole, but please be careful to extend that to all OC2 pilots...

No respect for the company? What makes our company? The people who try every day to give their best to serve our passengers? They sure have my respect. The management? Sorry, there I have a little problem, as a have been diappointed once to much from our dear managers. They still have to work a little to earn my respect.

The court? Has no clue about aviation. Rules against all economic logic and is obviously BSL-biased. Not much respect here from my side, you're right. I have learnd the hard way that, opposite to the constitution, the law in Switzerland is only valid as long as it serves the mighty and rich. Little man has no chance against a coalition of money and politics. And in the end our federal counsil can just rule that "the OR is not applicable in this case". Does that make Switzerland a Banana Republic? Maybe so. Judge yourself!

[Iz]

Carefully following the situation from a distance, I cannot seem to shake the impression that people like Skypointer (I really do hope his attitude doesn't represent all OC2 pilots) don't realize their luck.

Whatever happened to the roughly 30% of the ex-Swissair pilots who were not invited back into the new Swiss? I bet many of them are reading Skypointers shamefully arrogant posts and think, Man, do you have any idea what a fool you are making of yourself? You should be glad to have a job at this miserable time in the aviation industry, earning a good wage, flying a nice aircraft.

In ANY seniority-based system, the ones at the bottom have to go, if there are job cuts. If BA, LH or KLM were to suddenly ground all 747s, would the reasonable thing be to fire all 747 pilots? Even though they're more senior than most? Of course not, that is completely ridiculous, in a seniority-based system. So even if regional planes are grounded, the company must make this decision considering type conversions for their pilots and the financial consequences. The last ones on the list should be the first ones to go.

If that means that the majority or even all of the pilots that are let go are from OC2, so be it. I don't wish a job cut even on my worst enemy, but this is how it works.

The whole situation has become a farce. Every job dispute in the rest of the world has people saying "Watch out, you don't want them to pull a Swissair on ya!" Skypointers argument that Crossair wouldn't last as a purely regional carrier is of course complete nonsense. I see the folks of our flag carrier marching into our office building the day after their bankruptcy, claiming that our leisure company wouldn't survive without them long haul aces. Whatever.

All the best to you all, I hope for a fair deal.

[middlepath]

most peaceful and happy days for both parties will be realised once and for all when Swiss runs out of cash by end of the year, Ah men!!

[BlueSky]

Everybody has to give or there won't be a future for swiss aviation. There will be no further chance. Face it.

What did Swissair pilots give ??

Surely not Salary, or a few. This magic 35% is Bull**** as you know, we have both salary list, before and after Swissair... How can you explain that some SR F/O even get an increase of salary ??

Vacations?? No, just the same as before

Aircraft type ??? Doesn't look liike it.

Seniority ?? Well for the time being you're alone in the BGAV

I'm happy to see that in this forum there is some people (aviation specialists) that know the goal and the meaning of a seniority system...

When a Crossair Captain with 15 years of experience on MD80 (old SR aircraft) wanted to join Swissair, guess what, he had to start as copilot on the A320 with the lowest seniority! Can you please explain me why SkyPointer. Do you think he is less safe than a 4 years Swissair F/O ?????

Why don't you just drop your seniority number if it has no importance for you??

I still believe that the Zipper would solve the problem if aeropers is willing to approve it... And by the way, Swiss has to comply with the court verdict... They already gave us the same vacations as SR retroactive to April 1st 2002, Bonus , same salary as MD11 for MD80 pilots and now they request per mail everyday our union to withdrawn the complaint about Seniority!!! Because they know they will have to comply like for the other topics.

I don't see politics telling us that we have to forget about the law, it's not that easy, otherwise why should I pay my tax??

I have nothing against SR pilots, I'm sure there is plenty of you that are willing to solve the problem without any court rulling!

We're ready to give you half of OUR seniority by accepting a zipper, why don't you take the chance??

[Stumpie]

IZ,

You mention the 30% now unemployed pilots in your posting. Are you sure all of these came from the bottom of the Swissair seniority list i.e. - the last in, first out principle? Well, they did not! Half of them were amongst the most senior captains in Swissair. This was wanted by management and agreed to by Aeropers because it would save a lot of money by reducing the amount of training required. I think a similar mindset is likely regarding this latest downsizing at SWISS. The Regional aircraft are the ones being downsized, but if you get your way regarding seniority, then only ex- Swissair pilots will be cut, meaning a lot of expensive training to take place. You are placing all your hopes on the Courts deciding in your favour, but I think it will all come to nothing if the politicians and financial institutions decide otherwise. At the end of the day money will be the only consideration and as it looks now, you had better start preparing for bad news if you are a low seniority Regional pilot in SWISS.

[gofer]

You suggest that LX can run to the end of the year - September is probably as far as they will get.

I caught sight of a comment paper discussing why Dose is a "HERO" and that the staff who survive will be also.

Its the PAX (SLF or whatever you want to call them) who are the HERO's, and unfortunately for Andre, I'm only amongst them when I can't avoid it... The food and service was going to get better - but the buns on EAP-LHR are now 1 per pax not 2 or 3 and forget the salmon, and the other day the brie tasted French not Swiss.....

No Andre, running the airline like you do I'll only fly LX when forced to (like the lowest dumping prices on D class HKG-ZRH return, but AF & LH will match whatever offer you make and even BA is getting close (and they have beds not flying deck-chairs).

The Eurocross idea in BSL brought over 15% more trade and you cancel the flights instead of encouraging the pax to come back - and flying empty A320's costs more than 1/2 full S2000's that are already breaking even at that kind of load... Don't understand the economics of the management who seem, more than ever determined to screw the Swiss Tax Payer. Remember please that there is something called a Directors personal liability in cases of crass incompetence.... (and that looks more than a given from this bystanders view).

Sorry guys, but you need to start bailing out - if you have a job to go to, take it... the end is near, and with the current madness, probably not near enough for the tax payers. Would have loved to help you, but this time management has gone way too far and my miles (between 300 & 500K of them per year and most in Business - which does pay...) are for the most going to the competition, and yes I'm burning my QG miles every chance I get, because I don't want to lose them all. :eek:

[middlepath]

gofer and other colleagues

I am out of there and have safe job but still keeping interest in this forum since been there and have colleagues there. ex-lx pilots ! have a thought will you accept the terms if you were in their (ex-sr)position and similarly wouldnt ex-sr pilot put the same argument if they were in position of ex-lx pilots. pilots job is to fly and managers are to manage not other ways around. CEO of the company is pilot in command of the company and he is responsible for evrything and every one in the company. My quetion is what is the background of the ceo? has he got, MBA in airline business, good accounting knowledge,previous reputation of runing a major airline big as Swiss or is he just a Saab 2000 pilot(smooth talker). What is important is result, and only the end result counts rest are immeterial. The board can always find most qualified for the job in free market before the share holders take matters in their own hand. I am just a aeroplane driver but ceo must know more than me.

[pecs]

SAFETY – WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP

Congratulations Skypointer, you just had to mention Safety.

Hull losses/Significant Accidents:
SWISS: 2002 – Saab 2000
Crossair: 2000 – Saab340, 2001- AvroRJ100,
Swissair: 1998 – MD11, 1979 – DC8, 1970 – Convair, 1967 – Convair, 1963 - Caraville

I won’t bother going into the detail of the relative pax and crew body count.

Please try not to paint the Swissair experience as somehow perfect. Certainly no “professional” airline pilot I have met at Crossair/SWISS has denied that Crossair had problems. Has SWISS learnt anything from this period? Should the current SWISS CEO and EVP Flight Ops as well as other management promoted within SWISS from the former Crossair, have survived this long given their management and oversight of recruiting, selection, training, recurrent training, safety management etc. over this extremely sad period of Swiss and European Aviation History? Just what was the Swiss aviation regulator FOCA/BAZL doing during this time of rapid expansion? Please also remember that it was this same management that allowed over 850 pilots to enter Crossair 31 March 2002 without any selection or screening whatsoever. Oh, it just happens to be same management which gave you seniority and discriminated against its own ex-Crossair drivers. Methinks there might just be the whiff of hypocrisy and double standards at play.

Even post November 2001, safety management at SWISS, even with oversight from ex-Swissair colleagues in Flight Ops and Flight Safety, allowed a totally discredited, illegal and unsafe Screening Version I to develop which greatly set back a necessary Safety Culture within SWISS. This initial Screening process was so unprofessional, biased, ridden with conflict of interest, was against SWISS’s own stated Safety Management System, secretive, and illegal due to abuses of private confidentiality and information disclosure, that it had to be dropped for fear of criminal and legal action, let alone actually reducing safety.

Screening Version II started late 2002 is off to a better start with an openness, transparency, and pilot association input, however suffers again the accusation of a real conflict of interest. Management had the chance to install independent and neutral program leaders but did not do so. So yes, you are right there were and are problems and some of them still remain. Because you simply get the seniority and job security you want, is no justification to provide succour and support for a regime whose safety management record continues to have more than just growing pains or teething problems. But then, as we have established firmly on this topic, self-interest and self- preservation are prime motivational factors of which ex-Swissair drivers do not totally monopolise.

Thanks to Skypointer with some help from Stumpie we at least have your reasons for the current disputed seniority system that is not based on start date within Crossair (now called SWISS):

1. Safety – So its now confirmed and obviously self-apprarent that an Airbus and MD 11 driver is by definition safer than a Saab 2000 or an Avro RJ pilot.
2. One-sided and deserted negotiations – Complete with a management Diktat, my dear fellow, a party cannot negotiate if nothing is offered to negotiate upon. Maybe it might be useful if you re-did your Matura or went through your SLS notes. If you keep repeating the old canard so many times, you obviously think that people might start to believe your fabrication.
3. Investor requirement – try to find where it was written in the Business Plan and this demand has to date never been publicly stated by any government politician or business investor. But give it time, it will.
4. “Its no solution” – Congratulations on the excellent, thorough and detailed analysis and argument having considered all available models and options.
5. Cockpit Gradient Concerns – You have created a very interesting, new and unique world standard. The commander at SWISS shall always be older, wiser, have greater total time and on larger types, than the First Officer. Pity those other International Carriers flying in our same airspace with such dangerous non- conforming cockpits. The commander of an Airbus must be a graduate of the SLS, must be Swiss (minimum C Permit might be considered) and of course has the freedom of association to join only Aeropers.

In the face of such Swissair inspired superior logic, wisdom and argument the ex-Crossair pilots should bow down before you, seek your grace and forgiveness, and offer themselves first for Reduction/Layoffs/Sackings.

Skypointer and Stumpie have pointed out the influence of politics and money. Yes, it is simply a power game, with a fair amount of public emotion, which bears no reflection to running a safe, financially successful and law abiding international airline. Certainly don’t confuse politics and money, with economy or financial competence. By all means keep playing the blame game, and claiming victim status from the Swissair collapse. Yes we are all genuinely sorry for you and especially for your other colleagues early retired at the top and the juniors chopped at the bottom of the SENIORITY LIST. It is perfectly understandable, but never excusable, that you don’t wish to live and die again by the same SENIORITY system, but at least spare us from the sheer cant and hypocrisy.

[Stumpie]

pecs,

I am not a pilot with SWISS so have no fear of losing my job. Skypointers tasteless harping on the poor safety record of Crossair is outdone only by your pathetic tit for tat answer comparing Swissair safety over a period of 40 years, with the last 2 of Crossair. If you consider terrorist bombings and uncontrolled fires in flight to equate to controlled flight into gound as one and the same thing, you are showing even less taste than Skypointer. When it comes to "sheer cant and hypocrisy" you certainly take the cake!

[Robert Vesco]

Stumpie Skypointers tasteless harping on the poor safety record of Crossair is outdone only by your pathetic tit for tat answer comparing Swissair safety over a period of 40 years, with the last 2 of Crossair. You have to be fair and admit that he was talking about the Crossair safety record of the last 25 years. Nevertheless you are right, every crash is one crash too many. :(

For as far as safety and mistakes are concerned within both OC 1 (ex-Crossair) and OC2 (ex-Swissair), we only have to read the SWISS Montly Safety Update that is delived to our mailbox to know that NOBODY is perfect.

As I´ve said before, the effects of the additional Swissair ´knowhow´brought into Crossair after 31-03-2002 are minimal. Little to nothing has changed.

[from A to Better]

SWISS, a BLISS for aviation.


mmm, I am afraid we are already the self-acclaimed benchmark for the airline industry

[Iz]

Stumpie,

I did not mention, nor did I know that the 30% ex-Swissair pilots who weren't re-hired by Swiss, were not 'selected' regarding seniority. It amazes me that they were not. If they fired the guys with the biggest salaries to save money, why did they not simply apply the Crossair salary principles to the newly hired ex-Swissair pilots? This whole story just baffles me.

I don't see the point that some ex-Swissair people want to make, justifying their high salaries and benefits and seniority demands upon the fact that they fly the old (big) Swissair planes.

If our 737-charter company had bought a bunch of ex-Sabena A330's and hired a bunch of ex-Sabena A330 pilots, they'd go right to the bottom of the seniority list. Even if we'd fly them out of Brussels on ex-SN routes.

It's like getting thrown out of your house because you stock plan went bust, a neighbor taking you into his own house and then complaining that your guest bed doesn't have a massage setting and there's no jacuzzi.

Can somebody explain to me the justification of this behavior?

[Stumpie]

Iz,

You say "...if my company had bought a A330.." Herein lies the problem I think. The ex-Swissair guys refuse to accept that Crossair have taken them over because Crossair did not pay a brass bean for the Swissair equipment. It was given to them. They look upon the whole SWISS exercise as a merging of Swissair and Crossair and hence their contention that seniority should be based on entry date into either Crossair or Swissair. Nothing like a merger/takeover or whatever to muddy the seniority issue as I am sure we have all seen in the past elsewhere. Regarding the disparity in salaries - I have no idea. Perhaps a moderate contributor like Rob. V. can answer that one. Both unions are fighting hard for their members - some might say TOO hard. It is a great pity the 2 sides cannot come together, but reading the comments posted here that would be wishful thinking.

[Robert Vesco]

The ex-Swissair guys refuse to accept that Crossair have taken them over because Crossair did not pay a brass bean for the Swissair equipment. It was given to them. Sorry Stumpie, but the ex-Swissair equipment was not given to us. We have to pay leasing fees just like everybody else. However, Swiss claims that it was able to negotiate very good leasing contracts in the wake of September 11th.

For as far as salaries are concerned it´s a direct concequence of the seniority issue. Instead of joining the Crossair salary list (and expanding the already existing Crossair salary list with a long range salary scale back on the 31st of March 2002) the ex-Swissair pilots were able to negotiate a seperate salary list, just for themselfs. This of course was not acceptable to the CCP, because if you are in one company, you should have one salary list (and benefits packages such as vacation) for the same group of employees. This has been explained by people like skypointer as if a Crossair pilot on the Saab 2000 should earn the same than a pilot on the MD11. This is pure nonsence, but we all know what happens if you tell a lie over and over and over... people eventuelly start believing it. It is the CCP´s goal to have one salary scale for the long range fleet and one salary scale for the European fleet.

[Lost_luggage34]

DCS99 - about time you visited the forum ?

[Stumpie]

Dear RV,

Thanks for the reply. I guess the leasing companies are the same or whoever took over after the demise of Swissair.

Salary - not a good sign that your management accepted a deal that benefitted one half at the expense of the other, especially when AD was ex Crossair himself. This does not bode well for the future where huge costs are likely to occur if your version of seniority is enforced. Of course the court ruling has to be enforced first in this case which is not a foregone conclusion in my opinion. I still think, based on past performance, it will be the junior regional guys who are likely to be the losers. Money makes the world go round -especially in Switzerland.

[Momo]

As it has already been proven that a profitable short-haul airline can be created from Basel, it seems to me that it is now time for someone with a lot of courage, not to mention money, to start one, based on what is being eliminated by Swiss. The Basel-based routes, with the exception of BSL-ZRH have never been dependent on hub and spoke economics.

Momo

[Robert Vesco]

Money makes the world go round -especially in Switzerland. Yes, you got that right Stumpie ! Especially in Switzerland. The Swiss have very little respect for international (or national) law as skypointer has illustrated so well in his/her posts. Bending every international law and standard possible has made this country very rich with money from white collar criminals (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/celebrities/bios/213.html), drugs dealers and despots (http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/celebrities/fa.ca.8.html), but it has also led to the current mess within Swiss International Air Lines.

Applying "industry standards" when it suits you to justify the higher MD11, A330 and A320 salaries while at the same time applying "best practice" when dealing with seniority (by shoving roughly 1000 ex-Crossair pilots below you on the seniority list) is a perfect example. :yuk:

--------------------------------------------

Welcome to the Banana Republic Switzerland ! :yuk:

[middlepath]

Dear Colleagues in Swiss

The quickest way to solve all dispute is to ask the present management to tender resignation and have fresh start. Debating in the forum is just for self setisfaction but will not have any end result. Do you agree?

[N380UA]

Sorry middlepath, a fresh start is the one thing we can't have ! It’s do or die now I’m afraid.
As far as the self indulgence on this forum, see it as morphine for the dieing solder.

[middlepath]

Is it not effecting moral of the staff due to this atmosphare of uncertainty ?

[dr yes]

What a shame the reality of the modern world hasn't yet dawned upon these bloated, egomaniacal windbag pilots. Seems to me that we could all play nicely in the sandpit with the other children? Unless.....

Die schweiz ist ein Horterland, das vor lauter Vergangenheit nicht an die Zukunft denkt. Aber es gibt tolle, engagierte Menschen, schöpferische Finder. Leider bleibt der volkskörper davon unberührt.

Oh dear, there is that, isn't there!

.....das vor lauter Vergangenheit nicht an die Zukunft denkt.

Oh dear, oh dear.
:}

[middlepath]

dr yes

Is that the translation in German how the state of the moral at Swiss due to uncertainty?

[dr yes]

Middlepath.

Thoughtless of me not to include an English translation, so here you are. Quite topical, if you ask me......

Switzerland is a land of hoarders who's sense of the past prevents it from looking to the future. But it is also home to many exciting, committed spirits, creative and resourceful. Regrettably, the body of the people remain little affected by this.

CCP.
Your seniority aspirations are ludicrous and unworkable. How much of your current position is determined by bitter and twisted unsuccessful applicants to Swissair in years gone by? No residual ill-will from that, is there? How do you expect your court adventurism to be implemented? Oh, that’s right, not your problem is it. Its management’s problem……

Aeropers.
Time to display some vision, and clarity of forethought. A clear and unambiguous statement needs to be made about cockpit integration and career model. This is central to CCP anxieties and in a post file-screening world, your qualitative objection evaporates. Statements comparing university professors with kindergarten teachers don't help anyone and makes your membership look cowardly and bombastic.

Get on with it, time is running out.

[PorcoRosso]

Hello gals & guys

Pretty hard times for former Crossair crews. My girlfriend recently quit the company to work for AirFrance (she's F/A) and she will really miss the airline spirit (before 11 of sept I mean )
I don't know if it helps, but somebody advertised for Saab positions (340 & 2000) on the "Nordic Forum".
Have a look here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=804151#post804151)