AAI losing pilots [Archive]

canadair

27th Feb 2003, 23:06

411
your memory seems to be letting you down mate, the CAA expressed concern on a Friday aft, and asked AAI to come up with supporting documentation, the audit took place the following monday and all was found acceptable by the CAA, operations resumed.
Agreed that the jobs for both ex Ansett and C3 guys came up with great timing, BUT, these same guys are more than prepared to leave for better opportunities, and continue to do so.
So, is`nt it time for AAI to realise this, and do something to make it a more desirable place to stay? it would not take much, just some form of security, an employment contract allowing for time off, and many would choose to stay. Most agree the work envinronment is good, and the company has a bright future, they just want to know they will be a part of it.

411A

28th Feb 2003, 00:51

canadair

Yes, would agree that with changes, AAI would be a better place to work. Communication with employees was never a strong point, but OTOH, personally know guys that worked there in the early ninetys, and from their comments, not much has changed since that time. They continue to serve a nitch in the market, and probably will continue to do so, so long as they do not go head to head out of their league.
It certainly suits the guys that only want to fly seasonally.

shake rattle n roll

28th Feb 2003, 01:11

Yes Canadair...better conditions like, a recogniseable contract ( not one drawn up by someone who would be better suited as a loan shark)... rosters at least 2 days in advance......basings.......advance notice of your FORCED vacations......spot of leave without going off pay etc.etc.etc.....

jetmaster2000

28th Feb 2003, 10:52

Some great guys to work with but, oh for a roster!

thegypsy

28th Feb 2003, 16:52

Who exactly are these 767 guys going East to join??

shake rattle n roll

28th Feb 2003, 16:56

At present there are numerous Asian operators who are hiring, or so I believe.

abra

1st Mar 2003, 10:36

411A obviously has a little knowledge of Atlanta which is now well out of date.I don't work for them,but a best friend does,and he regularly tells me of the goings on in AAI. It would be nice if AAI's work,particularly on the 767 was seasonal as 411A suggests,as it would ease the leave situation.The only seasonal bit left is the Excel contract which reduced from three to one plane over last winter.Those two spare aircraft were used almost immediately on other contracts which are continuous,and more and more work is appearing all the time.The Ozzies are probably leaving AAI so they can have a small amount of regular home life,as the Far Eastern companies they are going to,are not only based closer to home,but also have a commuting system of rostering.One of the niggles my mate has with Atlanta,which has been mentioned in previous postings,is that if you are Icelandic,you are on a special local 'golden balls'contract..paid year round whether sick or on leave,3 weeks on 3 weeks at home..every Christmas and new year off..pick of the postings ..and so on!The rest of the non Icelandic crews have to run around taking any leftover leave opportunities and doing the s...t contracts,and touching their forelock as they do.No pay when sick,no pay when on leave,no roster or at least inefficient rostering by (said to be)lovely people who have little rostering experience and who frequently leave the company as they find the pressure too great,based miles away from the coal face,monosyllabic communications if any,a contracting company which is owned by AAI and therefore not working for its contractors interests..just AAI's... are just a few of the things my mate tells me about down the pub(my other mates are ex-AFX or still with them,so we have happy evenings together!The AFX crowd seem more cheerfull at the moment..they even buy a round occasionally,so they must be getting paid!)) My mate with AAI,says that the maintenance is fine,and that the decision by AAI to start AAI Europe(or is it AAI uk?)will mean even higher standards being imposed.His worry is wondering if the costs envolved with those higher standards will not bring the whole thing tumbling down.Maintenance,rostering,pay,conditions etc will all have to improve to gain the AOC..and costs will soar...there will be interesting times ahead..and many work jobs created.
But then he is happy doing what he does,even though he's miles from home,so it does suit some.
I flew a Cessna411A once...it was a CofA testflight..and the only way to have got it through would have been to cheat on the single engine climb check..so it failed.Obviously 411A takes his nom de PPRuNe from somewhere else!

411A

1st Mar 2003, 14:08

abra,

Quite the contrary, have owned one for quite some time. In fact, delivered several direct from the factory, flew 'em in charter service in the 60's (along with a lot of other folks, desirable aeroplane then), no problems found. You just have to know how..:)

Most of your comments about the concerned airline are right out of the past...as in, poor scheduling, no/late roster, local favoritism, poor communications...and been that way for a very long time. Glad to hear about the maintenance improvement, guess 1998 was a wake-up call for them. Personally found the seasonal work quite to my satisfaction...don't think I would care to keep up the pace all year 'round. The leave situation apparently hasn't changed either, but personally found that if I told 'em when I intended to go, the roster (such as it was) was arranged accordingly. Worked for me anyway.
Some folks used the inhouse contracting agency, and their pay was always late, sometimes very late. Personally used an outside agency...always paid on time. Much better arrangement.

Thermal

2nd Mar 2003, 03:10

411A said,
“Glad to hear about the maintenance improvement, guess 1998 was a wake-up call for them. “

I hope that this is a wake up call for you, 411A and that you let go of what happened 1998.
Please stop going on about it, there is no need for you to bring it up ad nauseam. Let me assure you that there is nothing wrong with the maintenance these days.

Also 411A said,
“Some folks used the in house contracting agency, and their pay was always late, sometimes very late.”

Would you be able to let go for this one as well, 411A?
My pay is always on time and I am with their in house contracting agency.

In general I am happy to read your comments, but stop dredging up the past, move on......

ABDC

2nd Mar 2003, 10:47

What has been written about AAI is in basic terms right. They are loosing pilots, a fact that will become a very real problem for AAI in the coming months.

Nobody is to blame except the management itself, because they keep their crews working the longest known periods in the business and for very low salary to say at least. Abra comments about “golden balls contract” is both right and wrong. There is a group of people, not all icelanders though, that AA has kept as they need to secure themselves a minimum number of crews at all time. Those (better paid) pilots are make up the base of crews that AA wants to have available long term, sor all year round projects.But there are many icelanders with AAI today that dont work under that “golden balls” contract. In fact, if anything those pilots (most ex-icelandicair) work on ACE lowest scale pay and to top things have to face the most strict tax environment in the world. But for many others I think that ACE deal, given some changes in terms and conditions, could be made to work for us. But surely it must change. Othervise people will just give up and leave.
Air Atlanta has grown immensely. Its a lively work place. The biggest problem is still the same it was 10 years ago. They make good firefighters (dealing with occuring problems on day to day basis). But what needs to happen is preventing those fires (problems) to break out in the first place. One of the first things they seriously need not only to consider but actually DO, is to work out better working conditions for their employees. Should that happen, not only would AA not run into problems like they are doing now but AA would actually be a good place to work. Benefit to both.
:cool:

Whiskery

2nd Mar 2003, 11:04

Poor old 411A - still trying to get mileage out of an audit that was initiated by a false report from a disgruntled sacked lame.
The audit showed Air Atlanta was conforming to CAA regulations and the paperwork was flawless. They (AAI) were never challenged again!

Please get into general aviation 411A or something else to get your mind off not getting a contract renewal by Air Atlanta all those years ago.

Let it go Mate!

411A

3rd Mar 2003, 15:15

Yes, Earl, that be the one.
Can remember folks had to actually call Iceland at least twice a month to chase down their salary, oddly enough even some of the Icelandic F/O's complained about this.

Could be now tho that with enough business, times have changed....or maybe not.

Outside agency always better.

Woodpidgeon

3rd Mar 2003, 18:05

I have just returned home after a very pleasant stay in the Carribean courtesy of AAI and was able to have a chat with the CP. I got the impression that they are aware of the impending problems and, hopefully things may change. Remember there have been management changes and fleet changes in the last 18 months plus a new major shareholder, all of which must put pressure on the old guard to 'smell the coffee'. We will see. Personally I find the job a great deal of fun, especially after years of IT charter.

Woodman

3rd Mar 2003, 18:32

According to internal information the new airline is called Air Atlanta Europe and will start with one 767 with more in the summer. I hear they are looking to offer a core group of 767 pilots year round UK contracts based at Gatwick.

Flybob

5th Mar 2003, 01:21

Totally agree with Woodpidgeon, ABDC and Canadair.
The improvements we have seen over the years seam to be limited in the most part to the MX department, which has made great strides to improve internal quality and personnel relations. It should be noted that the majority of MX are also on a contract overseen by the big A, however they have (through sticking together en mass) managed to negotiate paid days off.
It is sad to see all these good people leaving, but for the want of some simple necessary contractual changes.
I think we are all agreed, but for a few changes this could be such a good company to work for. I just hope they wake up before it is all too late.

411A, You never had your facts right when you went on your first vitriolic hate campaign, shortly after your contract was “not renewed”.
Your tone seams to have softened over the years, but you never managed to get the facts straight.
Still don’t think that AAI will be renewing your contract any time soon.
Was it a good swap the L1011 for the 411A?

411A

5th Mar 2003, 01:37

Flybob,

Have owned my personal aeroplane long before AAI, and have found it quite useful for business...and that business now is recruiting and managing pilots, and yes, with considerable success.
Glad to hear that AAI have improved in the maintenance department, was long overdue. As to the working conditions for the pilots in AAI, wish them well but suspect that not all that much has changed, and from some of the comments on this forum, definately have not. In fact, it may have gone downhill just a bit for when I was there was always paid for off/vacation days...seems that is not the norm now. With the surplus of available pilots now, suspect that will not change either.
Time will tell

Flybob

5th Mar 2003, 01:43

Surplus of Jar licenced and type rated experienced 76 and 74 drivers?

If you make a living out of this and make bland statements like that....well I rest my case.

411A

5th Mar 2003, 03:12

Flybob,

Give a call to one or two reputable European crew agencies and find out the score...you might just be surprised.

BA (just one example) has for many years been a source for experienced guys, and not likely to change anytime soon. Suspect AAI could pick and choose at their leisure for pilots, the only drawback might be the contract/lack thereof, not to forget adequate salary.

Hope you're not thinking of industrial action, old boy.:rolleyes:

Flybob

5th Mar 2003, 12:31

411a.
Your lose grip on reality is slipping.
Firstly, what would you know about reputable contracting agencies?
Secondly, as any one knows who is around what is going on, BA has been a source for retired typed staff, Not only for AAI but for several other as well, but on a minor level only. Not enough to supply and maintain up to 12 classics, 8 x 76 and 3 x 75s.
I would guess at less than a couple of percent at best of retired capts.
We never could tempt their first officers to leave………………..?
As for contracts available:
Please feel free to check out the web sites advertising in Europe for 75 and 76 type rated personnel. (With a JAR licence).
(This would be from your aforementioned reputable agencies)
Supply and demand Old Boy, supply and demand.
I feel sure if you could apply your untold talents into providing AAI with the 40 or so crew they are missing for the summer op then you could well be on the way to making your first million.
Now back to reality…..
Industrial action? That’s your line of work!! Old Boy!

411A

5th Mar 2003, 12:53

Flybob,

Reality? Think yours is slipping.
AAI will have no problems attracting crew for the season, irrespective of the contracts posted elsewhere...and their salaries will not increase much either. Received a CV from one of their 767 guys two months ago, he simply wanted a change. Many to take his place.
OTOH, seasonal work suits some, as you should know.
As the UK division comes on stream, their costs will rise, further holding down salaries.
IF they stick to what they know best, will do OK....we'll see.

B767300ER

5th Mar 2003, 16:32

Where are AAI's 767s based?

How about their 757s?

Thought I saw a TF-registered jet at JFK recently, or MIA. http://www.surfsidehawaii.com/aatwa.gif

Awakevortice

6th Mar 2003, 06:48

I agree with Flybob, firstly in discrediting 411A who is an enduring irksome quirk of pprune, secondly that AAI certainly do not have a surplus of JAR 74 & 76 crews.

I am one who is reluctantly leaving AAI because of the lack of career provided by their non-employment policy. Otherwise, its a great place to work. Incidentally, my new company are having to train pilots off the street. Perhaps they are unaware of this endless pilot surplus on 411a's books.

411A

6th Mar 2003, 12:04

Awakevortice,

You make a common mistake in assuming AAI is a 'career' airline.
Except for the local folks, it is a contract airline, nothing more, nothing less. You are hired for a contract (thru their own agency, bad idea), and when the contract is finished, out you go...and has been that way for many years. Their planned UK operation 'might' be different, but don't think so.
Contract work suits some.
IF you want a career, join a large scheduled airline.
And, if you read clearly, I never indicated that they had a 'surplus'...only that they would have little difficulity in recruiting crews...and they never have.

Flybob

6th Mar 2003, 14:23

I rest my case!

411A

6th Mar 2003, 19:32

Flybob,

Yep, ALWAYS paid, thru an outside agency (vacation, days off, the lot)...and quite handsomely too, as a senior check and training guy.

Personally know several folks who had a very difficult time collecting their dues. Bad reputation in the early days...seems better now, and it will HAVE to be if they are a UK carrier.
You sound rather dis-satisfied...having problems? You seem to have to keep defending yourself, or the concerned company.:rolleyes:

2Bad2Sad

16th Mar 2003, 09:53

Yes in total agreement. Air Atlanta is not a career position.
Another Hajjah finished. Most crews finished 110 hrs plus in less than 28 days exceeding the Jars once again.
Trouble is that it was done in 2 separate months so no OT.
Now we begin our un scheduled vacation for who knows what length of time.
Managment claims no long term contracts for the 747 workers
at meetings held with our crews at various bases.
No representation from the outside crew handling agencies at these meetings either.
Was informed that they were not invited.

2Bad2Sad

16th Mar 2003, 12:33

We are very fortunate for the 767 will do much better in the contract department, length etc.
Poor 747 guys, feel sorry for them, they are getting the short end of the stick.
Disagree with 411 about outside agencies, word has it that Atlanta feels they can obtain all the pilots they need without them.

canadair

17th Mar 2003, 20:37

to the guys on the 76, well great you feel so protected compared to the poor fellows on the 74, but you are no more insulated than the classic fleet.
You are offered the same crap employment contract, on the same terms, with the same complete lack of guaranteees.
If you take it, great, but you are certainly no better off!

millerscourt

3rd Apr 2003, 04:18

NTM Why start another thread about AAI when there is one already just about alive still???

bob_bowne

4th Apr 2003, 11:39

I find it quite irritating to see pilots bash Atlanta, their maintenance is as good as most of the operators I have worked for and I considered it better than that of a major that I was previously worked for.

I was out of work for nine months and Atlanta gave me a start for the European summer. I have now moved on, but I have good memories of my time there and am extremely grateful for the opportunity that they provided me.

The Company exists because of its flexibility and they do not pretend otherwise or for that matter tell you anything different. To those still there on the 767 I hope the summer is an enjoyable one.

millerscourt

4th Apr 2003, 14:03

B_B You say you worked for AAI for the European summer, presumably the Excel contract? Did you declare your earnings to the UK Inland Revenue I wonder??? As this was a 6 month contract you should be paying tax and the only way AAI get these kind of contracts paying crass salaries to their Pilots is because they pay them in US$ offshore knowing that it is not being declared. This is unfair competition under EU rules.

crundale

4th Apr 2003, 21:41

MillersC,
If Bob Bowne is his real name he is not one of the 120 or so pilots who have passed through the Excel contract in the last 18 months.
And I'm sure as a responsible pilot he would have paid tax if he had....
C

canadair

5th Apr 2003, 00:31

hey Miller
what are you jumping all over the guy for? have you ever heard the term
"reciprocol agreement" ?
how do you know he does`nt pay taxes in his home country, which may just as easily have such an agreement, making him completely legal.
Oh, yes I remember now, all those British pilots I see working all over the world must be faultlessly honest about taxes, yes, thats why they always seem to have that halo and holier than thou glow about them!

millerscourt

5th Apr 2003, 02:59

Canadair You don,t know what you are talking about with regard to double taxation agreements between UK and many countries.

What this means is that in B_B,s case as he was working in UK he should pay taxes there and if there is a double taxation agreement between UK and his country then he will not be taxed twice.That is the way it works and not as you suggest.

As for your comments re British Pilots working overseas then provided they are employed overseas they are not liable to UK tax but of course pay tax in the country of their employment. If they work in a country in the Middle East that has no tax then that is an advantage available to all,but of course in reality those airlines pay less in the first place because there is no tax so you are no better off.

Not a question of Halo,s at all

duffuss

5th Apr 2003, 09:07

The grim reeper of normal lifestyle is indeed losing a huge chunk of its pilots these days. In the coming month or so about 10-12 guys will be leaving for the simple reason that they are unable to maintain a normal family life, and well also because another more generous operator is offering them that normal family life.
10-12 pilots from an outfit that is so seriously short of flight crews, that it is barely able to run the show, could ground a couple of aircraft for quite a while. AAI is also running very late in training pilots for the summer, it makes one wonder if it is worth for a company to treat its employees like dirt?!?!
:confused: :confused: :confused:

LGW Vulture

5th Apr 2003, 16:29

Management will soon be looking to fill front seats on the new (old) Bizjet when it arrives soon! ;)

canadair

5th Apr 2003, 20:19

No Miller, sorry mate, you are wrong, if you are willing to sift through the tax issues, as well elicit the services of a good expat oriented tax accountant, and can track your days abroad, then you can indeed live one place, and pay tax in another, which may be more desirable in terms of the paid amount, IE the UK, and Canada, you can pay it in Canada, on your declared income, but be flying out of the UK, of course the ability of residence in the UK is essential.
But what took issue with in your post was the assumption that if a fellow is working for AAi then he "must" be dodging taxes
well I guess that means all the UK based pilots and engineers with AAI are all diligently paying those same taxes, They would never claim to be "retired" would they???
Wake up, this is not a foreign issue, the British are just as likely to manuever around the taxes if possible as anyone else.

2Bad2Sad

6th Apr 2003, 03:35

We should all forget about the tax issue, thats up to each individual employee to satisfy their governments requirement.
What about contracts?
Should they not be followed as each is a binding aggreement between 2 individuals that would be held up in any country or court.
This company has untold of breaches in paying crewmembers as per contract terms. Outside agencies included.
When confronted with these issues the outside agencies claim that Air Atlanta will not pay them so they cannot pay us, Days off due etc. This should be the outside companys loss if they cannot collect from Air Atlanta!
Ground engineering here is excellent, much improved and can be compared to any major carrier.
Contract adherence leaves alot to be desired. Outside agencies in paticular.
Why have a contract if it is increasingly questioned?

millerscourt

6th Apr 2003, 16:42

Canadair If anyone is paying tax on what AAI are paying then it would not be worth turning up to work!!

Sure you can live in one place and pay tax elsewhere but where you work is where you pay the tax,hence the double taxation agreement.I don't know about Canadian tax rules which may be different.

canadair

6th Apr 2003, 19:48

"I don't know about Canadian tax rules which may be different"

no, you obviously do not, but you still felt the need to pontificate about same, regardless.

Oh, and by the way, congratulations on insulting 400 plus pilots and engineers regards their jobs and salary in one go!

does that make you feel better about your job?

B767Longhaul

7th Apr 2003, 02:37

Air Atlanta has been taking advantage of pilots for years, and I doubt that will ever change. It all has to do with inbreeding. :)

The starting pay at Air Atlanta is the same now as it was 5 years ago. Having worked for them on several occasions on both the 747 and 767 I have seen personally the double standard that exists there. Air Atlanta is a stepping stone for those who wish to use them as such, and is also a place to hang out for those who wish to fly now and then and make more than one could changing oil at the local garage.

The double standard exists whereas the Icelandic Union pilots work 3 weeks on followed by 3 weeks off with salary. Plus perdiem during the 3 weeks on.

The have nots,, that being everyone else works 3 months on with a whole 8 block days to go home. And also 8 whole days off per month as well. Sometimes there were more days off during the month, but sometimes they rostered you to work 22 out of 30 days.

Starting salary for a F/O 5 years ago was $5,500 a month, it is the same now. And, no perdiem. They keep that perdiem money that they collect from the contract airlines they fly for. But you do get breakfast should you happen to be in a hotel. If you are in an apartment or house, then pour yourself a bowl of flakes and add milk and sugar. :D

I for one do not wish to see Air Atlanta get an additional AOC since they can not manage the one they presently have. The Vikings should just keep what they have for now and work on getting that house in order before starting this new venture.

Signed,

an ex 767 pilot

:p

2Bad2Sad

7th Apr 2003, 06:45

The bloody one Air Atlanta hired to settle issues made a confusing mess with the matter.
Poor bloke was laughed at behind his back in the pubs.
Overheard the outside agency employees state they have listened to his lies for years prior to employment with Atlanta.
Definitly made things worse.
Yes if not happy find another job, working on it with loads of others.

NTM

7th Apr 2003, 10:04

B767Longhaul said Starting salary for a F/O 5 years ago was $5,500 a month, it is the same now.
How many days do u you have to work to make this ??
I thought AAI paid their F/O 175$/day. So How do you come up with that amount of cash ??? :confused: :confused:
Could you explain that figure you come up with ??
I am going to be out of a job soon so I am just exploring my options. But only if...;)
And regarding the meals. If it is not Breakfast time, Do you have tobring your own meal on the airplane ?? WTF What a deal, I could get started on my diet...:rolleyes:
Later.

3MTA3

7th Apr 2003, 19:19

I worked a year and half with AAI, never had a contract, got paid 175$ a day, I was pushed to fly illegaly (If you don't do it, we send you back home is the standard answer at AAI).
The management calls their pilots the boomerangs (the stronger you throw them, the faster they come back). I made up my mind and quit my job without having anything else in view. I couldn't cope with the spirit, never seen such a bunch of liers.
I'd rather not be flying :E :E :E

B767Longhaul

8th Apr 2003, 08:22

Pilots are toilet paper to Air Atlanta,, they use you and then throw you away !!!

To NTM,

Air Atlanta primarily uses 2 contract agencies, the first is Direct Personnel and the other is ACE, which is owned or controlled by Air Atlanta. ...edited out an unwarranted personal comment. Don't do it again.

First Officer and Flight Engineer pay:
Direct paid $ 5,500 a month salary for 75 hours and ACE paid $175 a day.

Captain pay:
Direct paid $7,500 a month salary for 75 hours and ACE paid $250 a day.

I am assuming that it is still the same.

Good luck.

While there are some good "individuals" at Air Atlanta, the company management remains inadequate. Especially in the Crew Planning department and training department where the department heads are clueless and have no business "trying" to manage these departments.

Whiskery

8th Apr 2003, 19:24

A top outfit if you are into contract flying and working when YOU feel like it. Never been late with the pay and maintenance is excellent (talking 747 fleet).

The Old Man has never been fond of whingers and spoon fed silver tails, so if you think you can do better than Air Atlanta - then hoo roo !!!

3MTA3

8th Apr 2003, 21:16

Whiskery, you will have to explain how you manage to work when YOU want. If I remember, I was only working WHEN AAI NEEDED ME. You are able to say no when you don't want to work (but you shouldn't say it too often because then you don't get called anymore) but you can't decide when you will work, so basically you take the crap they assign you to do and shut up. Some people might like it, as well as beeing away from home for up to 3 month at the time. I made my choice : NEVER AGAIN :E :E

planemad

8th Apr 2003, 21:40

Get a life!

Air Atlanta just advertise positions they do not hold a gun to your head. Nobody has to join.
Atlanta have helped many pilots back to work and have got many pilots off the bread line.
Sure some leave but most complete the contract as offered and many come back.
When many so called BIG airlines just dump their staff, why give stick to one that gives work.

Maybe the new guy is getting nowhere but last week a pilots notice place a date of 1June 2003
for the introduction of a new long term contract. Sounds like progress to me.

Earlier posts refer to pilots laughing behind his back in Pubs. They should just leave or speak up,
but stop crying in their pints.:yuk:

RAT 5

8th Apr 2003, 22:42

Some insight please, and some words from various horse's mouths.

About 2 months ago I had contact from Direct & ACE. Both related to B767 work. UK was mentioned, worldwide was mentioned & even AMS was mentioned. It all sounded like it was happening just around the corner.

I'm type rated and available quickly. No more has been heard.

What is going on? If B767 guys are fleeing the coup it makes you think they need crews, but then again, would I want it. I'm just curious about a seeming lust for captains, then sullen silence.

Gordinho

8th Apr 2003, 23:35

I don't think anyone in the management of Atlanta would try to claim that they are a first choice company for pilots looking for a career. That's not an attempt to defend the laughably bad crew planning (how many years have they tried to improve that mess? How many managers have come and gone?) but just to point out that the company doesn't really have ANY interest in improving conditions for it's crews.

As a lot of you have pointed out, a lot of pilots have successfully used Atlanta the way Atlanta use pilots. Go there, get what you want (or need) from them and move on. Right now they are hiring pilots. Sure the salary and conditions are bad, the management is often completely incompetent and the pay is low but it beats working at Burger King. When the opportunity comes, you move on and if you do it right there are no hard feelings. When either party expects more from the other, that's when the problems arise.

Like I said, I'm not seeking to defend Atlanta or the way they do business but I don't think they go out of their way to hide any of the things people complain about. They pay badly, they exhibit double-standards for non-Icelandic pilots and they will cut you lose with minimal notice but while you work for them they will meet the minimal commitments they make.

The real issues that have to be dealt with are their continuing tendency to undercrew contracts and then pressure people to fly illegally and their sad misconception that their current Modus Operandi will be tolerated by the UK CAA.

2Bad2Sad

9th Apr 2003, 00:01

Yes indeed, Crew requirements are undercut on contracts.
Pilots are expected to fly past normal duty times, rest requirements and the lot!
When refusal of exceeding duty times comes into question you are threatened with termination.
Have seen happen often.
Either move the AC or face termination threats.
Its time for Atlanta to wake up, no longer a flying club, follow the rules, stop threatening crew members.
As far as previous post suggesting finding employment elsewhere
Why should we go, Its up to Atlanta to straighten up fly correct or shut down.
Crew planning is the worse and produce the most threats!

B767300ER

9th Apr 2003, 04:27

AAI is still recruiting for summer contracts, it seems.

Anyone know if they'll have an airplane based in Belfast or Dublin this year?

18-Wheeler

9th Apr 2003, 11:54

Pilots are expected to fly past normal duty times, rest requirements and the lot!
When refusal of exceeding duty times comes into question you are threatened with termination.

That is an outright lie.
I suspect that 2Bad2Sad is a troll from some other company trying to provoke some sort of reaction to get information.
Ignore him/her.

SKI

9th Apr 2003, 15:43

One 767 in Dublin April-October:D

B767Longhaul

10th Apr 2003, 04:00

Hey 18-Wheeler , 2Bad2Sad is correct about AAI crews exceeding Duty times, Flight times, required rest requirements, ect, on and on. Perhaps it did not happen to you, but it apparently did to him,, and,, it did to me as well. So now there's at least 2 of us that agree here.

I know of one Captain that refused to fly a 767 from England to the States since the data base was expired,, and, did not contain any data for the states, at all. Air Atlanta's position was that "the database is not required". So Air Atlanta's crew planning people just got another Captain who flew it with the expired database. Shortly after this, the Captain that refused to take the flight was no longer working for the company. FACT,, not speculation.

There are other truths to be said here. Open up your mind a little.
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that it didn't happen to others.

Or perhaps you were that Captain that took the flight ??

:* :* :*

Ted Hunter

10th Apr 2003, 09:01

767 lLonghaul,sorry to steal your thunder old boy but the data base was replaced by the engineers prior to this flight departing,I do'nt know where they snaffled it from but it was certainly up to date ,although it was a very limited data base without the usual sids and stars.

18-Wheeler

10th Apr 2003, 12:58

I said it was a lie and I stand by that.
I have been in AAI for nearly three years and have never been asked to exceed duty times, etc.
The inferred statement from the troll was that it happens to everyone, and it clearly does not. Hence, it is a lie and he/she is trying to spread a mistruth. You are not helping.
As Ted Hunter said, you are spreading mistruths, I wonder what you two have to gain from it.
Just because it didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that it didn't happen to others.

True enough AAI make mistakes, but name an airline that doesn't.

crundale

10th Apr 2003, 14:28

Guys,
A quick word from the other side of the fence. We here in crewing and rostering ensure that NO Atlanta pilot flies over the max. And thats a UK FTL, as well as the Icelandic - we fly to the more restrictive.
There have been database issues, and the Captain you are referring to from last summer has left the company, but not just because of that one incident.
All i know is crewing / rostering, and I know we stick to the scheme just as rigidly as any other airline, if not more so. Do pilots moan about flying near to the limits? Yes, but when don't they. Nearly every complaint I've ever had from an AAI pilot has been "Please give me more flying." Oh, and all my days off in a row in August please, that's quite common.....
SO feel free to abuse the owners, but we have taught Iceland the joys of acclimatisation, adequate rest, consecutive nights...Now if we could just stop going to Banjul....
:D

Earl

10th Apr 2003, 16:30

Lets all go back to Nigeria!
Free drinks every Thursday night at the hotel!
Nice atmosphere.
Freindly people.
Great local entertainment.
What a great idea!
Anyone interested?

3MTA3

10th Apr 2003, 17:30

18 wheeler, can you tell us what happened to the pilots who had a tail strike coming back on a MOD flight and why?
I was terminated because I refused to fly over the hours in Nigeria. Can you tell me how people can fly legally when the management rosters only 2 f/o by plane.
I wrote a report to the quality manager, and since that I was never called back.

Earl

10th Apr 2003, 17:36

I have been with the company for almost 5 years and have never
been threatened by them in any way shape or form.
I have seen a lack of work due to the down turn of the industry.
This will improve I am sure.
Planning has alway's helped me when I needed it.
I would like to see the old day's where as we all did quite a bit of flying an had the days off to travel home.

18-Wheeler

10th Apr 2003, 18:20

3MTA3 I don't know who was flying the plane on that flight, but it was more complicated that purely pilot error with the tail strike. That's all I can say about that.

I completely refused to go to Nigeria, and I never missed a day's work. They rostered more than two F/O's to go there, but I suspect many like myself refused to go.

3MTA3

11th Apr 2003, 01:28

We had to operate for over a week with 2 f/o per plane in Nigeria and since I refused to go back there and sent a report to the management, I never been called back. During this Haj, a 767 crew had to fly Jedda- Maidiguri (Nigeria)- Jedda in the sale night... Way over duty.
The pilots from the tail strike incident were found over duty. Of course it's not the only cause for this incident, but it's one of them.
The first time I flew for them, my check pilot's words when I complained about being over duty were "if you start complaining about that, you won't last long in this company".
:yuk:
Sometimes you arrive on a nice contract, but most of the time it's a complete chaos organised by some ex Seven Eleven employees thrown into aviation business without even a basic training, and at the end the crews have to pay for their lack of organisation.
These working conditions might suit certain pilots, but flying a JAR registered airplane implies the respect of the JAR rules. Unlike what AAI tells to their pilots, your licence can be suspended in case af illegal actions.

B767Longhaul

11th Apr 2003, 16:29

Hey crundale ,

If you are in Scheduling in LGW then obviously you are doing the Excel crewing. It is so simple to state that you are abiding by the regulations,, but there are some of us that know different since we are the ones that actually experienced the reality of such.

If the CAA would just get off their behinds and investigate,, they would surely find a different story than you portray.

As a Crew Scheduler, I am sure you try to build realistic rosters,, but in reality,, those rosters exceed published limits.

I know for a fact of crews on the 767 flying more than 13 hours block and 20 hour duty days.

Perhaps not something that you had a part in,, but it did happen.

Pull your head out of the sand and have a pint with the rest of us.
:O :O :O

Gordinho

11th Apr 2003, 17:39

Crundale, are you an Excel crew-scheduler? If that's the case you are not especially well qualified to comment on Air Atlanta's crewing practices worldwide.

2Bad2Sad

12th Apr 2003, 02:03

No lies here 18- wheeler,as such all have been subject of mis truths to endure full employment.
Dont think upper management has knowledge of violations of crew duty times/days etc.
Its either complie or goodbye.
We all fancy a check of crew member log books.
Or do you mend yours to show what a great crewmember you are.

abra

12th Apr 2003, 02:07

My mate down the pub says that Atlanta are loosing about a dozen Icelandair copilots at the end of April,as Icelandair's work is picking up and they have all been recalled.But he's sure that Atlanta would have known about this in advance and would have made provision for their loss.He says there are many new entrant courses going on,and that it is probably just as well the war is on and that there is a bit of a down turn or things would be a bit tight.He is not working very hard at the moment and seems to get home fairly regularlyHe's heard that all the 757s are back from the desert and that at least one is fully painted in Excel's colours,but he still doesn't know what the Atlanta Europe's contract will be.He also says the crew who went from Jeddah to Maiduguri and back made a wise choice..as Maiduguri is a tip...oh..and Atlanta are still taking on more Ozzie ex Ansett guys...you'd have thought they would have learned by now!

2Bad2Sad

12th Apr 2003, 02:55

Why did they not augment the crew as this would have made the crew legal for extended duty.
Same old lies, different day.
Anset crews came from a profesional airline,they know the reqiurements/duty times etc.
NO AIRLINE TO INCLUDE AAI IS ALLOWED TO CONTINUALLY VIOLATE THIS!
Then to threaten termination?
Is this a one time occurance? No this is ongoing, perhaps more will speak out soon!
To the proper authorities!

As we all know the cost of bringing this to attention of managment, no work, not called back/terminated etc.
Whats up my gander is they keep getting away with it.
No one, I repeat, no one, seeks to see Atlanta close the doors.
We all seek change.
A happy crew member is a productive one.
Perhaps management should attend the CRM courses.
Follow the crew duty times, stop threatening crews with termination.
You will not get away with this in the UK!

As in the Tail strikeproblem/crew out of duty day plus other factors.
Not just our license involved here, some have been imprisoned for cauising a accident in other countries. Straighten this up now before someone gets blamed.
Want to be professional? Get it together.
We have all had enough!

2Bad2Sad

12th Apr 2003, 06:31

We and the whole lot have been threatened with termination for not exceeding the crew duty day requirements.
Common Knowledge is to show in the logbook less than 1 hour prior to departure to cover the problem.
All flights from lagos to jed were not in compliance and to extend all flights from LOS to JFK were over duty time I am told.
Hajjah fligthts were doctered in log books. After theNigeria contract.
As you say 18-wheeler would you like log book entry page numbers.
Or is your nose stuck up managments back side that you cannot
smell the stinch.
Maybe you have not been threatened with your employment.
This is true facts.
Can you provide information in a true documentation that this is not true, we can.
You are the one thats not telling the truth here not us.
Air Atlanta is not following crew docotorine.
Crew planning is even worse.
Knowledge of this is apparent.
Ask the Captain (IN) JC about his flight from Kuwait/Jed with over 20 hour before hand.
Can name more.
Yes I am an employee who else could state such facts.What is your job? Do you even fly? You have been here 3 years are you not hearing this are have you forgot how to read the OM.
Maybe you shold not be flying since this is widespread and you do no as you claim have knowledge of the facts.

747nopaynoway

12th Apr 2003, 10:38

Many are in the same boat.
Either exceed the normal duty day plus extension or face the unemployment line.
No fiction here, all normal operations for Air Atlanta.
How they keep getting away with it, no one knows.

18-Wheeler

12th Apr 2003, 13:55

Well after nearly three years of being in AAI I say again that I have never ever been asked to bend the rules.
I don't know what's wrong with you blokes that claim that you have, but I think you either have never worked for the company and are just making up stories or are covering up something else that you personally want to hide.
I have flown with some totally incompetant pilots that should not command a paper plane, yet you ask them why they haven't been asked back and somehow it's AAI's fault. (An example, not inferring this here)
I know a lot of people in the company and I know the reasons for virtually everyone not being asked to come back, and cheating on hours & so on has not been a reason for anyone to be let go.

Whiskery

12th Apr 2003, 15:31

3MTA3 - I commute from Australia. I work for 5 months then have two months back home. That's working when I want to !

It has never been a problem for AAI. I do occaisionally get recalled early and sometimes leave London a couple of days late but it has worked well for the past five years.

As for working outside the duty / flying hours - I have to agree with 18 Wheeler - I have never been asked to and / or rostered to exceed these limitations.

bob_bowne

12th Apr 2003, 19:32

How many wingers are there, I did a stint with Excel and Nigerian.

Excel drove us mad with audits and from time to time I had to fill out Commanders discretion reports with both operations but I do not recall exceeding the overall limits by anything excessive.

There is a notice to pilots in the Excel Crew Room stating that your validation may be pulled if you submit too many discretion reports, “have a look in the book!”.

3MTA3

12th Apr 2003, 19:38

my last post dissapeared, is it because I pressed the wrong button or some censorship ????

crundale

14th Apr 2003, 00:53

Mr B767Longhaul,
Dont wish to start a personal argument, but could i just point out that
a) under Icelandic and Uk rules you can actually go up to 14 hours FDP not including discretion
b) as long as the FDP is finished, duty can continue forever, as long as you follow it with an equal rest period.
As I said earlier, if we could sort out the BJL, then this wouldnt happen....
And the CAA do indeed regularly check. Discretion reports are sent to them when things go wrong. They are told, we don't do cover-ups.
Now show me an airline that hasn't used discretion after tech problems, ATC delays, en-route diversions..... I make no claims for perfection, but I think it is unfair to say Excel or Atlanta are any worse than any other airline. And I do know what the Icelandic crew planners have done - positioning from Argentina to London and expect to fly again the next day, return from holiday in Oz to fly the next day in Santa Domingo. All I can say is we are making a lot of progress in educating them, but while daily rosters are done locally by an ops guy then things change very slowly.
I have resigned from another airline in the past by refusing to make an illegal roster - I am sure all Captains would do the same if asked to perform an illegal duty. Surely safety and conscience are worth more than tax free pay?
And 2Bad - surely you know the MOD thing was not a tail strike? If you were that involved with the company you would know what really happened.
Anyway, how about working together, and all trying to improve things? We in ops will try to make life as fair as possible, and when things go wrong, and if asked to someting illegal then you pilots must refuse to fly. After all, someone in ops writing a roster on paper is not illegal, its only when a Captain does it that it become an illegal act.
And as someone said elsewhere - there are other airlines, and no one holds a gun to your head and makes you fly for AAI. The point of this thread was that a lot of guys are leaving. They may not get such well paying jobs again, but they will find something. And well done to them for following their consciences.
Maybe if we could get a universal hours rules set this would stop, as the difference between uk, icelandic, australian, american schemes are huge.
c
ps I do a feel a bit exposed having to defend Iceland on my own, so if you could direct your vitriol to MOS would appreciate it. :D :ok:
pps Mr Longhaul, next time you're in LGW i'll buy the first beer.

3MTA3

14th Apr 2003, 16:34

Crundale, universal hours rules DO EXIST...... they are part of the JARs..... and they are not vey different from the FARs
and, by the way, flight duty period is not the same as block time. When you report for a flight at this flight has a long delay, you often bust your 14hours

crundale

14th Apr 2003, 17:09

3MTA3,
Check your JAR ops manual - section Q, Flight Time Limitations - Intentionally Left Blank. There has been a draft proposal for Europe wide rules, but nothing is in the JAR manual yet. Sooner the better! At the moment every one uses their own rules - hence mass confusion.
And yes, when you have delays, FDPs get extended. Hence the use of Commander's Discretion. But this is only if the Captain agrees, and I myself have never put pressure on a Captain to agree, and would support one who said no. Maybe that rules me out of a job as an AAI station manager?
Anyway, commercial putting pressure on pilots to meet unrealistic schedules - is this really a problem specific to Air Atlanta?
c

Gordinho

14th Apr 2003, 17:47

Crundale there's quite a difference between the way the Excel contract is operated and the way other contracts, like last year's Nigeria debacle for example, work.

3MTA3

14th Apr 2003, 17:49

Commander's discretion also has its limits. Also, when you are asked to perform a duty only 8 hours after a FDP of 30 hours, it's nowhere near any limitations in the world. Or when you're asked to do 2 New York- Athens round trip with 10 hours rest between each leg because some idiot forgot that a crew visa is required to enter the US and haven't checked if the pilots were holding one, this can only happen with Air Atlanta.
I have to say that I enjoyed working one one contract: KL

crundale

14th Apr 2003, 18:44

Ah - now the Atlanta training department...that is a joke, you win there! :D
Discretion does have its limits, and any Captain that flies over them should face the consequences.
Can we all agree then that some like Atlanta, some don't, and that aviation would be a better place if we all had the same rules?
c :)

3MTA3

14th Apr 2003, 23:06

Perfectly OK with that, Crundale . I enjoyed some of my time with Air Atlanta, because some of the crews and some of the ground people are extremely good, but yes, AAI is definetely not for me. My family is my first priority.
But it doesn't excuse the fact that some base managers are pushing you over the limit with some sentences like : "if you don't do the flight, I don't need you, so you're out of the project"
They should follow the rules. By the way, did you check the hotels in Kaduna and Maidiguri? ;)

2Bad2Sad

16th Apr 2003, 02:29

In hopes that this is a wake up call for all blokes that may be involved.
Perhaps next time a crewmember states I am not legal, you all will bend the ear.
Does anyone remember letter placed by management 2 years past concerning exceding crew duty days an FDP.
This was exceded the very next day.
Yes its true if you are not a pilot that doctors the books or exceeds the limitations then you are the one threatened with job loss.
These are not one or two hours past the FDP, some of these are well into 5 plus hours.
Many times to get the plane back, then to only have it happen again.

Crunedale,
Perhaps you seek to change the company, problem is that most base managers do not care about the FDP.
Either complie or goodbye!
For years Air Atlanta Icelanic has covered these problems.
Now it has become a crew safety issue.
Work together as you state?
If all follows the Air Atlanta regulations in Chapter 7 concerning these issues then no question at all!
When do we begin?