Flight Training in the States (FLORIDA)

[Capone]

Greetings current and future aviators from an aspiring pilot,

I intend on pursuing flight training in Florida within the next few months. Could anybody please advise me of reputable flight schools that offer good training at reasonable prices. It seems to me that Comair, FlightSafety, and the Airline Training Academy have outstanding reputations, but I'd say their training costs are very unreasonable. Your thoughts and advice are greatly appreciated.

Thank you much
:confused:

[russellferrier]

Hi Capone

I am in the same boat as you and posted a couple of questions and am asking a lot more yet. What are you being quoted for courses from schools by the way ? My chosen school in San Diego California is quoting $32k for PPL, CPL, Flight Instructor, FI Instruments, inc M1 Visa. But one of the regular contributors to PPRUNE has also alerted me to the existence of a J1 Visa ! Apparently Florida is cheaper than CA too. And now is a good time to bargain I am told. But be careful too, you get what you pay for.

Keep in touch if you don't mind!

[Capone]

Greetings OzAir,

32K for all of your ratings? Does that include accomodation, all flight exams, books etc. If not that price seems to be too high. I've been quoted prices from $15K onwards. A flight school in FL, Debonair I believe it's called, has a $19K training course (total of 280 flt hours and accomodation included). But I don't know what their reputation is like. Another school in Daytona Beach that seems intriguing is Phoenix East Aviation. You get your PPL, CPL, IR, ME and FI ratings for a bit over $20K. Called and it's legit, but the deal is that you only log in about 170 hrs of flight time. But there is the potential of being hired on as an FI when you're done with that phase of training. Check out their website and let me know what you think. www.pea.com (http://www.pea.com)
Best of luck.

[russellferrier]

Capone,

Hmmm.. interesting comparisons indeed.

For my $33k - NO ACCOM is included ! I get PPL, IR, CPL, CFI and CFII in 20 weeks comprising: ground schools / classroom instruction (292 hours); ground flight instruction (30 hrs); Cessna 172 solo/dual (162 hrs); simulator (10 hrs) plus flight/ ground instruction manuals, headset usage, exam fees (not CFI-A/CFII) for $33,000.

I may be in a different boat to you not being a US citizen. Hence Visa types are important. I am told by the SD school that they would enroll me in an ATP Intern Program, where I will work as a flight instructor for a three month trial period 9 months into my 1 year M1 visa. ATP Interns are paid a $ 960.00 per month housing allowance during this trial period. If during this period they decide to keep me on as an employee, the school will become my sponsor and assist in applying for a
two year H-3 Visa, so I can continue working and building hours.

I am still exploring options but I don't see ME experience there either in my SDiego school so it's looking less attractive (and expensive) in comparison with others. But I like the school and San Diego is where I want to be. Hmmm....

I will look at that school site you suggest.
Others I have been referred to that may be worth checking out are:
Flight Safety
Anglo American
Naples Air Centre (in Naples)
ComAir
PanAm
West Michigan Uni

Thanks again. BTW feel free to email me direct if you want. OZ

[FE Hoppy]

You can find some links to schools on www.flightcrewinfo.com (http://www.flightcrewinfo.com) under the training banner.

[Capone]

OzAir,
Email me with you email address; for some reason yours is blocked.
32K seems really steep for no multi engine time and accomodation. What is the name of that school? If that school in question is American Flyers, I'd think twice about going there. If possible, I think it would be wiser to make the move to FL for flight training. I myself live in Orange County and while there are quite a few flight schools out here I think that FL has better deals. I looked into COMAIR and it's about $45K to get PPL, CPL, ME (only 10hrs), CFI, CFII ratings and that doesn't even include housing!!! PanAm and FlightSafety aren't that much cheaper either.
Dilemmas, dilemmas........
Cheers!

[slim_slag]

Capone/OzAir

You get your PPL, CPL, IR, ME and FI ratings for a bit over $20K. Called and it's legit, but the deal is that you only log in about 170 hrs of flight time. But there is the potential of being hired on as an FI when you're done with that phase of training.

For my $33k - NO ACCOM is included ! I get PPL, IR, CPL, CFI and CFII in 20 weeks comprising: ground schools / classroom instruction (292 hours); ground flight instruction (30 hrs); Cessna 172 solo/dual (162 hrs); simulator (10 hrs) plus flight/ ground instruction manuals, headset usage, exam fees (not CFI-A/CFII) for $33,000.

Essentially you cannot teach in US airspace without an FAA certificate. To get that you need to be a FAA CPL (which is possible in 190 hours on a part 141 course. Part 61 is 250 hours). From what you have said, neither of these courses provide 190 hours.

There are ways of getting a job (as a non US person) for a short period as a "CFI" if you go to an approved school. With the current market, there are now more CFIs than jobs, so it might be trickier.

$33k is way too much for all the above. You should be able to do it for $20k if you shop around. I'd say $25k is more likely if you are going to a part 141 school as you have to pay for more compulsory ground. Remember to add accomodation, travel, sales tax if you are flying solo, food, etc etc etc. Flying is a financial black hole.

Also, if you arrive in the US with a cute British accent there should be plenty of opportunities to blow at least another ten grand on a member(s) of the opposite sex :)

Further financial chaos comes from the fact that Yanks don't understand the 'round' system. If you buy them a beer, too many of the %#@^&@@# think it's a gift.

[Capone]

Slim Slag,

I was actually mistaken. It is 190hrs of flight time at Phoenix East. Books, a headset, all flight as well as written exams are included. Accomodation is not included. Training is done in a C-152. All of this for $20,500. What are your thoughts? Sound good, or too good to be true.
Many thanks.

[Capone]

Slim Slag,
oh yeah, almost forgot, and of the 190hrs of flight time, I believe 65hrs are Multi Engine time.

[380]

Go to a small not very known school. I heard that they're the best.

[slim_slag]

Capone

Lets see if I've got this right

190 total time, including 65 multi - rest in C152, all instruction? Less than $21k.

As they say - do the maths!!

Sorbi Flying Club (http://members.tripod.com/altitude95/Sorbi.htm) is the cheapest place I have found in the US. I am sure there are cheaper, but in the decent places to fly out West, this is the best I have found.

65 hours of multi in a Seneca @ $120 / hour = $7800.
Balance, 125 hours in a C152 @ $40 /hour =
C152 = $40 per hour = $5000
Lets say 100 hours instruction @$35 hour = $3500

So that's $16k for the plane @ instructor for your 190 hours including 65 multi.

Jeez, I surprised myself here. That's actually a great deal, I wouldn't have thought that was possible until 10 minutes ago!!!

Sorbi are not part 141 and will not do JAA licences, but it shows its possible to find a plane for those prices. Also as Sorbi flying is a club under California law, you don't pay the approx 8% sales tax if you are solo. I also bet if you were to give him $10k up front he'd do you a better deal yet.

There are plenty of 'overseas' students hanging around at Gibbs and you can get a great deal on some grotty apartment round there, maybe $100 per week or something if you arrange it through Gibbs. Very close to San Diego too which is a great town.

Normally I would expect to pay $160 for a Seneca and $55 for a C152. That puts the totals up to around $21k. I don't think I'd like to do 125 hours in a 152, I'd pay another $15 and get a 172 or warrior.

Remember its the extras that kill you, and you rarely get through any course with the minimum hours of instruction.

Have fun

[leading edge!]

I strongly recommend that you consider Naples Air Center. I learned to fly there last year and consider them to be the best that there is going. I am completely impartial, but if you wish to drop me a line I will let you know costs for me etc. I know that times for F/Schools in the US the going is tough, but they are an excellent outfit. :eek:

[Capone]

Slim Slag,
Thanks for the info.
Sorbi's seemed promising, until I noticed that it was a school run by the Frenchies.
;) However, the prices sure look good. What are their planes and maintenance like?

[apruneuk]

I did my FAA CPL/IR with Naples and found them to be very professional. However, they are not the cheapest and only had one twin (which was U/S due to a wheels-up when I was there). With hindsight I would say that they are best suited for PPL training and do not really have the fleet/personnel for serious commercial training. Naples is also the Monte Carlo of Florida and the cost of living there is very high.
However, like all schools, they are only as good as the instructors/fleet/management at the time and all of these are constantly changing. Whichever school you choose, I would advise you to ask for the details of a couple of recent students who have completed the course that you are considering and get it from the horse's mouth.

[JetMouse]

A word of warning to those aspiring to go to the states for a PPL or other ratings...

Due to the atrocities of Sept 11 all M1 flying visas have been cancelled for AT LEAST 6 months...

I know this as I was about to go to California over xmas for my ppl and was deliberating as to whether to get an M1 visa. I decided to get one as I didn't fancy turning up at immigration on my own with a bag full of flight books trying to explain that i'm just there on holiday to do a bit of reading!

So when I spoke to the embassy (two blocks from where I work) I was flatly refused and told they would be no visas issued "for at least 6 months" – regardless of circumstance...

Now this doesn't mean you can't go but the gamble is all yours when you’re at immigration and if you've ever travelled to the states on your todd, like I have numerous times, you will know they give you a very hard time even when the world isn't trying to kill everyone...

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: JetMouse ]

[DesiPilot]

My advice is talk to the students who are currently studying there or have graduated from the flight school. There are a lot of hidden costs not mentioned by the school represantative.
We hire lots of FI's in our school. All the FI's who came from North American Aviation Institute (NAIA) were very happy with the school. I never had any complaints with the quality of their instruction which only reflects to quality of their training. I believe their website is www.naiasc.com (http://www.naiasc.com)
Goo luck with your flight training.

[slim_slag]

Capone

Slim Slag,
Thanks for the info.

My pleasure.


Sorbi's seemed promising, until I noticed that it was a school run by the Frenchies.


Nah, you must have got that from the web site I cited. That is an outfit run by a French chap who just uses all the planes in the clubs at Gibbs. He makes his money off instruction. There are plenty of instructors you can use to fly Sorbi's planes, or the rest of the clubs at MYF. They just have to be known by the club.


However, the prices sure look good. What are their planes and maintenance like?

I'd check the prices, they might have gone up. Insurance is rocketing almost on a monthly basis, and rental prices are going up too.

As for the planes, I have flown sexier beasts in my time. They appear mechanically sound though and get required maintenance. FAA maintanance standards are very high, weather or fuel exhaustion is more likely to kill you. I think Sorbi does his own maintenance so that will keep costs down.

I think Sorbi doesn't do this for a profit. You will find plenty of places who are in the rental business for the love of it. Others are out to make a decent profit. There's nothing wrong with either approach, but one is going to be more expensive than the other. A rule of thumb is that they want to make $10 per hour profit on the plane, and a bit more on the instructor.

Of course some FBO's also make profit on the fuel if they pump that, and on maintanance if they do that. There is not too much money in FBOs right now, they used to make a good deal of their money on the plane appreciating in value. Those days may be over for some time now too.

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

JetMouse,

Naples Air Center has been issuing M-1 visas without any problems or delays since Sept. 11th. In fact they have been taking on average 5 days to be issued. In the last 4 weeks we have issued visas to the following nationalities:

British
Tunisian
Madagascan
Irish

I would suggest that you check again. You may have spoken with someone at the embassy who was trying to be helpful but does not work primarily with the M-1 visas.

Sincerely,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[JetMouse]

Richard

If that is true I stand corrected and will make further inquiries!

Thanks for the info! :)

[slim_slag]

Naples Air Center has been issuing M-1 visas....

...we have issued visas to the following nationalities:

British
Tunisian
Madagascan
Irish


I'm confused. What is the procedure for a flying school to issue an M-1 visa to a British citizen, and a Tunisian citizen?

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

slim_slag,

I recently posted the M-1 visa application on PPRuNe for anyone wondering what the application entailed.

You can review that post by clicking here (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=011103).

When we receive our completed enrollment form from the prospective student, we issue the M-1 visa application, as referenced above. The application is mailed to the student already completed and signed by our admissions department head. The student takes it to the U.S. Embassy along with the form OF-156 (which is about to be replaced with form DS-156). OF-156/DS-156 is a form which can be downloaded via the internet and needs to be filled out by the student prior to visiting the U.S. Embassy.

The difference in procedure between a British citizen and a Tunisian citizen is the Tunisian citizen does not fill out the OF-156, instead has an interview at the U.S. Embassy and has to show financial viability.

Happy Flying,

Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.

[slim_slag]

Naples,

Thankyou for the link, very informative.

Maybe it's a nit-pick but the Embassy issues the visa, you provide the neccessary supporting documentation. Given the circumstances, I am surprised that they are issuing visas to foreigners to learn to fly in as little as 5 days, but am delighted to accept it's true.

From my interacting with Americans since the attack, it's obvious to me that there are 'good' foreigners and 'bad' foreigners. That may be unfortunate but it appears to be the case. I would imagine that the British citizen would obtain a visa in a lot less time than the Tunisian. I would also imagine there would be a difference in welcome at the flight school. Brits are especially favoured right now by Americans. I think Tony Blair is better received in the US than in the UK :) and that cruise missile we fired on the first day was diplomatic money well spent !!

I suppose the difference in approach towards nationalities is already proven by the fact that some nationalities require visas to enter as a tourist, and others do not.