Need advice from European pilots

[ArcherII]

Hi,

I'm currently studying Aerospace Engineering in central Indiana, USA. I'm in my third year. I'm just about to earn an FAA PPL, and i'm in an instrument ground class and will be getting my instrument rating next Fall. Upon graduation, I have two choices. Get a Masters, and become an engineer. Or, invest in flight training in Florida, get FAA and JAA licences and find a flying job in the US or Europe.

I'm not intersted in airlines, but corporate flying, or even flying small piston twins for whatever job, as long as I can make good money.

I would appreciate any advice, and an introduction to the JAA system...and how the flying in Europe is different from USA.

Archer

[FlyingForFun]

I'm not intersted in airlines... as long as I can make good money.Well, the only way I know of to make good money in this industry is ni the airlines. And even then, it's not exactly easy...

That aside, do you have the right to work in Europe? If not, not point in getting a JAR license.

Once you've got that hurdle out of the way, an aeroplane flies exactly the same way in America as it does in Europe. JAA is a little different to the FAA system in places. The ground-school is much tougher, for a start. As far as terminology is concerned, you'll hear people talking about a "frozen ATPL", "ATPL(F)" or "fATPL". This is the equivalent of an FAA CPL/IR - might be a little confusing if you heard the phrase and didn't know what it meant.

From what I can gather, there are more regional jobs in the US than in Europe, which means there's a more definite career-path. Over here, a very small number of people get airline jobs immediately, but most people scrape around trying to find work instructing or flying for one of the few turbo-prop jobs, or head off to other parts of the world where there are more piston jobs, while they build up hours.

The biggest piece of advice I can think of, if you're aiming to get FAA and JAA licenses, is to look into the regulations regarding which order to get the licenses. I suspect you'll find that the total cost and effort will be less if you get your JAA license first, then convert to an FAA license. Converting to a JAA license is notoriously difficult.

Not really sure what else to tell you. If there's something specific that you want to know, then ask away...

FFF
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[witchdoctor]

Archer

Situation in Europe is very different to US (must be an echo here I think). Most corporate jobs require at least as much experience as the airlines anyway and are equally difficult to get into. As for other flying, most of it is very badly paid and there are only a tiny percentage of the numbers of light twins over here as there are over in the US. The geography over here doesn't really make aviation a necessity so we don't bother - much rather sit in a traffic jam or get delayed on the train:)

[scroggs]

Corporate aviation is far less developed in Europe than it is in the US, with the possible exception of the UK. A brief check of the number of corporate aircraft registered within the various countries will show the scale of the divide - it's huge! Similarly, air taxi and regional turboprop operators are relatively rare. Despite Witchdoctor's little quip, surface transport within Europe (even in UK) is way, way better than in the US, and carries a lot of the traffic that is carried by air in your country.

Consequently, there aren't many jobs, and what there are aren't very well paid. Having said that, a regional pilot in Europe is probably paid better than his equivalent in the USA, where derogatory wages are the norm in anything other than the majors. Now the US majors are in commercial freefall, the salary comparison between US and EU jet operators is beginning to look a little more balanced as well. However, the cost of living, at least in northern Europe (UK, Benelux, France, Germany) is considerably higher than in most of the US.

Your first priority should be to ensure that you have the legal right to live and work in the EU. Without that, you're wasting your time. Similarly, you should get a JAA Class 1 medical, which is more stringent than the FAA equivalent. Thereafter, there are plenty of JAA FTOs in the US, but you really need to take a long visit to your intended country of residence to determine whether or not you can live with the weather, language, culture etc. Training here would be a way to achieve that. Lastly, unemployment among pilots is high worldwide; don't expect any miracles by aiming at Europe.

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[ArcherII]

I thought I had mentioned it, but I didn't.

I have Italian citizenship, and thus can work and reside anywher ein the EU.

On the othe hand, I have no US citizenship or residency, thus my reason for considering Europe.

If I had a residency in hand already, I wouldn't bother looking at Europe, as I've already started down the FAA path, and know the system here in the US.

I would have gotten JAA PPL and IR licences for personal travel in Europe.

But I don't have residency in the US, and I don't know if I'll be able to get it.

My main concern is the difference of the JAA system from the FAA, the difficulty of converting from FAA to JAA, and the difficulty of ground schools and the JAA system in general.

I heard ATPL ground school is 5 days a week, many hours a day, for a year! That's insane!

Here in the US you study on your own for your PPL, do some 50 hours, get it, go on to IR, Commercial is just like the PPL, just a tiny bit different, and then get your CFI (which is easier I heard than JAA FI) and MEI/CFII ratings in no time.

Then comes the hour building endevour...up to 2 or 3000 hours, compared to the 500 in europe that I'm hearing.

Florida is full of JAA/FAA training places...for example EFT (European Flight Training)...and they have very structured ways of getting both licences as quickly, efficiently and lowest cost possible...

So flying in Europe is not very common eh?

GA is not common I'm guessing? people owning and flying little piston singles around?

I heard about the Corporate market being much smaller than the US...

Archer

[FlyingForFun]

Yes, you are right Archer, the ground school here is much harder. It's a 750-hour course. The recommended method of studying is to attend a full-time school for several months. If you can't do that, you can do a distance-learning course and study at home in your spare time, in which case the length of time will depend how much time you can devote to studying - it's taken me a year, using this method, including holding down a full-time job at the same time.

As for "people owning and flying little piston singles around", I don't know of anyone who flies a little piston single around for transportation purposes. I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them. Everyone I know who owns an aircraft uses it purely for pleasure. Which makes hour-building very difficult.

If you don't have residency in the US, then forget about getting your FAA CPL/IR. I'm not an expert on license conversions, but my understanding is that you'd have to do the entire groundschool, a full CPL course, and a 15-hour IR conversion course - in other words, you'd have to do practically the whole lot again - to convert to JAR. Just stick with JAR, and you'll save a lot of time and money.

FFF
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[ArcherII]

Well the thing is, if I stay here for a Masters, that's another 3 years from now, and I would want to be able to fly around the US under IFR.

So I think I'll go up to FAA PPL/IR single engine...and then see if I can get a residency or a job flying or as engineer...

I'm really in a difficult position...I'll have trouble find jobs in the US as a pilot or engineer...and Europe has smaller markets for both of those careers, and I got to get JAA licences if I decide to fly.

I do think that the definite way would be to go to Florida and get JAA and FAA licences

cheapest, most comprehensive training.


So what's the deal with this frozen ATPL stuff? is it not the same licence as an FAA ATP (which comes after CPL).


Yeah, the conversion from FAA to JAA is horrible...might as well start JAA.

though FAA PPLs can fly in the UK during the day (as you'd require a night qualification for night flight)...I don't know if other countries allow this too.I heard they do.

How is it talking to ATC in Europe? does each country have it's own accent? do they all use same phraseology?

how are Instrument procedures? and is there a unified "sectional" for each country...same symbols and all?

Archer

[FlyingForFun]

Much easier when you ask specific questions!So what's the deal with this frozen ATPL stuff? is it not the same licence as an FAA ATPNo.

FAA CPL/IR = UK ATPL(f)
FAA ATP = UK ATPLHow is it talking to ATC in Europe? does each country have it's own accent? do they all use same phraseology?Yes, of course they all have different accents, but that shouldn't be a problem. They should all use the smae phraseology, as specified by ICAO, in theory - they'll certainly understand you if you use ICAO phraseology, and reply appropriately. Some smaller airfields might not speak English - unlikely to be an issue for commercial aviation, but for private flying if you want to go somewhere a little more interesting you may need to learn some foreign ATC phrases first. I haven't been to anywhere like that yet myself, though.how are Instrument procedures? and is there a unified "sectional" for each country...same symbols and all?I'm not instrument rated yet, so not really certain - I'll let someone else have a go at answering that. As far as VFR flight is concerned, though, there are some minor differences between charts for each country, but nothing that can't be sorted out by spending an hour or two looking over a chart before you go to the relevant country.

As I said in my first reply, "an aeroplane flies exactly the same way in America as it does in Europe". It sounds like you've found the most appropriate route for you - so now just go and do it!

FFF
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[superpilot68]

no job in the US for low time pilot.
no job in europe ,no job for Eu citizen with FAA
no job for Eu citizen with low hours and JAA license.
no job= no building time=no experience=no money=do something else!!!!:mad: