Oxford standards slip

[slugman]

I was wondering if anyone else is in a similar position with regard to Oxford as my experiences so far have been less than reassuring. I am due to begin full time ground school in April and several things have begun to concern/annoy.

- They have increased the price of there full time ground school without actually telling anyone, including those who have paid and have received invoices for £1000 more than the course is marketed for. (admittedly this includes £700 of exam fee’s) but it is nevertheless taking the p*ss !

- Then there are the small things which on there own are insignificant, but do begin to mount up and look seriously unprofessional ! Phone numbers on their documents are incorrect - which makes phoning them up to ask why the price increase amongst other things v. annoying. - Also, responses on the phone were ‘snotty’ without a hint of an apology ! And the ‘test’ question paper they sent out contained errors ! Need I continue !?!

- On top of this there is the general BS they continually come out with, which is almost laughable and ultimately it gets boring - “we know everyone and can get you a job blah blah”. I understand that Oxford have to market there products but I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound ?

I’m know this post may make me sound like a picky person but god forbid any of us who don’t dot our ‘i’ s and cross our ‘t’s (difficult not to on word processor I admit !) on any applications, letters etc in this industry ! Any info/feedback appreciated.

Cheers
Slug :=

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Why don't you call them and ask them to tell you all about any change in charges?

I wouldn't worry about a wrong number on out of date stationary.

Geez! I know its a lot of money but you ain't buying a Mercedes Benz. OATS like all schools will be making a tiny profit on your year with them.

WWW

ps I toned down your thread title.

[clear prop!!!]

I have to say that slugman has a very valid point in my opinion.

From 1st hand experience (all be it some years back), Oxford offers excellent standards of instruction and course material.

However, to use the car analogy, Oxfords marketing department would take issue with the Mercedes reference, as hey claim to be the Rolls Royce of FTO’s.

Now any company (regardless of profit margins!), who aspires to be the best, has to make the effort. They are asking for a lot of your hard-earned cash and should appreciate what that means to you.

That goes for the smallest detail, the right telephone numbers, keeping their clients informed (even of bad news) and treating them as valued customers. Now THAT is where Oxford continues to let itself down. An arrogant and inefficient marketing department is dragging an otherwise good organisation into a very vulnerable position.

Others WILL, or should, try harder, ‘cos it’s tough out there and your business is needed, and should be appreciated.

To a professional pilot the smallest details matter. You will be taught that from day one. ….Schools should practice what they preach.


Good luck

[slugman]

WWW

I have called them which is why I know about why there was a price rise (they have just gone up - no real reason given). It was not so much the that they upped the price but the lack of professional business courtesy to inform me of the rise. I don’t really care about the stationary, phone numbers etc, but as I said the small things began to mount up (all of which I did not list) and these things became a frustration more than anything else.

As for them making “a tiny profit” - they are the most expensive !! - But I am not concerned about their profit margins, what I am concerned about is the general service so far ! I know I did not state it in my last post but I had planned to complete all my training at OATS, maybe I need to reconsider ?

Moderators in this forum are quick to point out accuracy, shinny shoes, speakin propa etc - are important in this industry which I don’t have a problem with just lets have some from the side providing the training !!

As for not buying a Merc - I think I could get one for around 30K !!

Cheers
Slug :=

[dontdoit]

Slug <<Moderators in this forum are quick to point out accuracy, shinny shoes, speakin propa etc - are important in this industry which I don’t have a problem with >>

As important as any of that is knowing the difference between "there" and "their" when you start writing your letters to prospective employers...not having a go, just FYI.

[slugman]

Dontdoit

Please can we get away from this - ok ok so I spelt something incorrectly (cut and paste error !) We are in an informal setting , I am not writing a CV, I am not filling in an app etc ! The point I was highlighting was the standard of service given. Large sums of money are involved, not to mention time and effort required to train - why should I accept a poor service ? I don’t have oodles of cash and I have worked really hard to get the money together (I’ll break out the violins in a mo ! ). Not having a go..just FYI!

Slug:=

[scroggs]

There is no reason to accept poor service from any supplier. You are the customer, not Oxford. If any part of their service is unacceptable, complain. If the answers to your complaints are inadequate, take your business elsewhere.

You are spending a very great deal of money. You are entitled to good service and value for your not-yet-earned dosh!

Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]

[No. 2]

slugman,

You are quite right to be concerned over the level of customer service you have received. As pointed out by scroggs you are investing a great deal of money. The theory training may be relatively small financially, compared to the rest of the training, but never lose sight of the fact that it's still in the order of a few thousand pounds. This is very easy to do with the sums of money involved in flight training.

What concerns me most is the school's response to people's queries regarding their chances of employment post graduation. Some of them are quite simply shocking and, in my opinion, border on being morally wrong. No doubt someone will point out the fact that they are only a business, but trying to encourage someone with very little experience of the industry to part with £60k on the 'good chance' of having an airline position immediateley after graduation is worrying. Yes, most schools try and play up your chances after qualifying but Oxford appear to take this to a whole new level.

Good luck with your studies.

No. 2

[badattitude781]

Hi Slugman,

Regarding the question you posted. I have copied the following text from a a posting I wrote yesterday. I hope this helps!

"Hi all,

In response to the original question:
I completed the Integrated ATPL course at Oxford quite recently and am now flying B757.
Yes, they got me through my exams and SOME of their instructors are first class and my fellow students were some of the nicest people I have ever met. However, our course made formal complaints against the school on more than one occasion due to the unsatisfactory standard of service. I have spoken to other students since my time at Oxford and I have heard of similar discontent. It appeared that the problems stemmed from the middle management/CGI.

The second point is whether having the Oxford 'name' on your CV will put you in a better position for employment. I imagine this comes down to the indiviual who is doing the recruiting but most people in the industry seem to indicate that as long as you have the relevant qualification that is all that matters. The same applies for a Modular or Integrated course. Holding the JAA license is ultimately the only thing people look for.

I'm sorry to be so derogatory but I would hate to see anyone else pay the significantly higher fees that Oxford require only to be disappointed."

[captainkilner]

The problems don't stop there.

I e-mailed Oxford regarding MCC prices and course dates about 4 weeks ago and still haven't got a reply, needless to say i am now looking for another MCC provider. :confused:

I did my ground school elsewhere, for a fraction of the price Oxford were asking but if i was paying all that money i would be expecting a higher standard of admin than what is currently in place.:mad:

Hope things work out

CapK

[D McQuire]

I am astonished that Oxford are still treating people this way. I ran into their high handed **** like attitude two years ago when I was trying to figure who I would go for: Oxford or WMU or BAE. Then they had lots of BMI, BA and Aer Lingus cadets so yes they were coming from a strong position but I still found their attitude to self sponsored people totally unacceptable.

In my previous career as a electronics engineer I dealt with many different suppliers of products and services. The services were usually to do with training and bloody expensive they were too. Around about 1500 quid a head for a weeks training was pretty much the norm in that industry. However when I dealt with these suppliers they were (for good reason) extremely courteous, efficient and communicative.

The contrast between that professional way of doing business and the high handed, inefficient and often uncontactable Oxford could not have been greater. I formed the opinion that as much as I might have wanted to go to Oxford they simply did not want my business. So I talked to WMU and BAE and decided in the end on BAE. And very glad I did too. I have found the initial customer care (Mary Jo) every bit as good 7 months down the line here in Jerez. Thoroughly professional.

I am not plugging Jerez over Oxford as I havent been to Oxford. I hear only good things about the training standards there but they really want to get their front of house **** sorted out.

[slugman]

CaptK

I may, as you have done look elsewhere - unfortunately the small matter of my non-refundable ground school deposit is at stake ! Anyone know a way out of this ?

Looking at the bigger picture - I had planned to keep my modular training in one place and get through it with the least amount of delay. The simple reason being that a recognised school, continuity and good passes (hopefully !) would help my chances in the future. I have a slight worry that if I were to change to another school after the ATPL grounds it may not go down as well in the future. I do know that employers like to see continuity - so am I right to be concerned about this or just a little naïve to the world of the airline employer ?

Slug
:=

[duir]

I recently went through a phase (as most of you probably saw!)of posting a lot of questions on this site about training and particularly Oxford. I eventually decided to go with them for distance learning ATPLs. After a personal visit I still had a few enquiries. During 2 phone calls I was passed on to a lady that I can only describe as Very Rude Indeed. Guess people can come across all wrong sometimes so didn't worry too much. Finally they passed me to a very pleasant chap who sent out an enrollment form to me so all systems go. Only one problem!
Its two weeks since I sent it back and as yet I have not recieved a reply by phone email or post.
Disgraceful.

Conclusion - I am now taking my buisness to Bristol GS (where i should have gone in the first place). I have already had 3 emails and 2 very pleasant prompt and polite calls from them and I feel like the customer again

UNDER NO CURCUMSTANCES should a customer be treat as anything less whether spending £2000 or £60000


Do Not put up with it folks

[Piece of Cake]

Hi Slugman,

Are you starting the full time modular ground school at the end of April? Just wondering as I will be starting the course then as well.

I have just checked their website and they are still advertising the course price as £5,495 excl emam fees. If the price has gone up by a £1,000 and £700 is CAA exam fees (fair enough you have to pay them sometime) what is the other £300 for? Just curious as I haven't received the receipt yet as I have just sent my deposit back.

One of my friends who I work with has just done his Phase 1's through the Oxford Correspondance and brush up course and he spoke very highly of their ground school. That's one of the reasons I chose their course.

Rgds

PoC

[slugman]

Hi PoC

The extra £300, good question - I wasn't given a reason - apart from “err…yes there has been a price rise“. It was not so much the money, but the way they just sent the invoice with the extra £1000 required upfront ! The course is still advertised and was sold to me at the lower price and it is precisely this which p*ssed me off. In fact I’m not even sure that is legal ! (although upon signing up for the course it is probably stated in microscopic print that they can do as they please).

Anyway enough ranting !! My reasons for choosing Oxford, are similar to your own - good reports on the standards of ground school ( may reconsider for the rest though ). Will send you private msg thingy and can chin wag about the place if you like ?

Cheers
Slug
:=

[witchdoctor]

The quality service doesn't finish there either. Apparently OAT have just chucked out a couple of students pretty close to their IR because they felt like it and stitched them up for more money in the meantime. If you get out at the beginning, on current performance I would consider it a lucky escape.

Now I never thought I would ever say that about OAT.

[Piece of Cake]

Slug,

Ok try sending a private message sometime. Won't be able to check it until later on in the week as will be on days off from the airline I work for now from 7am Monday morning so won't be able to check pprune.

Witchdoctor,
I'm sure Oxford will have had a reason for binning the students close to their IR, I'm sure they didn't do it because "they felt like it", it would be very bad for their business if they did,and I'm sure they are not that stupid (I hope not anyway!). (Maybe they were sponsored cadets who didn't make the grade, that is pure speculation on my part though)

Brgds

PoC

[tonyblair]

www you said OATS will be making a tiny profit. However, they charge £thousands more than their competitors (something like £12,000 more for their integrated course).

I conclude they are either making a massive profit or their senior management are incompetent.

[FlyingForFun]

As scroggs said way back at the top of the thread, and others have already agreed with him - if you're not happy, go somewhere else! There's plenty of choice out there.

I'm a little confused, though. I've been reading this forum for a while, and, with the odd exception (and there will always be one or two people who aren't happy), everything I've ever heard about Oxford has been good. Then I read this thread, and find not just an isolated case of an unhappy customer, but a whole thread full of people complaining. What's happened?

(Incidentally, I recently e-mailed a number of schools with some queries about a CPL course. I heard back from all of them except one within 2 days. The exception was Oxford - well, Tyler, actually, but I gather they are one and the same - who I still haven't heard from a full week later. So please add my name to the list of those who are not happy with their current level of service!)

FFF
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[Fogbound]

Before I start I am obliged to say that I work in sales and marketing for Bournemouth Commercial Flight Training Centre (BCFT)

It is interesting to read of the frustrations of students and prospective students alike. I felt the same when I was undergoing my training and empathise with those of you going through this.

In defence of the price rises there are a few points which may have led to these. I speak from my own experience here and this may not be the case for Oxford. With the events of the past 12 months, as you can imagine the industry has had to make some changes. Insurance has risen somewhere in the region of 24%, fuel and oil prices have increased (and if the tension in the middle east continues to escalate these are likely to rise further) also increased security measures, all add to the overheads of the company.

As for the high price of integrated courses, the paperwork involved in setting up and maintaining integrated courses comes at a high price to the company. This is why full time modular courses are becoming increasingly popular.

You should always take a magnifying glass to any paperwork you are shown. The small print can sometimes be very very small. To avoid any extra costs at a later date check that VAT, Fuel and ALL Approach and Landing fees are included. on a more surreptitious cost addition, check to see how many students are scheduled per instructor and per aircraft, also if you are mostly with the same instructor or if policy is to change each flight. These are things which can and do add to the cost and reduce the quality of the instruction received. At the end of the day a good name on your cv means nothing if you went hugely over on your training hours and failed each flight test/ground exam numerous times!

I take great pride in the work I do and enjoy meeting and talking to people who are interested in aviation, in all its shapes and forms. I base the way in which I conduct my work on the example which was shown to me by the company I conducted my training with, and try to provide the opposite! (naming no names). Unfortunately a lot of people do not take the same pride in their work as it is 'just a job'.

Every call, e-mail or visitor is important and if a company loses sight of this fact it is then that threads/gossip/rumours like this one begin.

It takes decades to build a good reputation in this world and only a few moments to destroy it.

[witchdoctor]

Might apply for the pilot training advisor job at OAT. Seems I could leave my scruples at the door, be slightly economical with the truth, dodge the tricky questions, pocket a fat wad of cash and get one hell of a suntan. Beats the hell out of flying at the moment.;)

[rattlesnake]

FFF

I've spoken to the sales guy at Tyler and he says he has no outstanding e-mails but not knowing who you are he don't know whether he has heard from you.

Try [email protected] and I think you'll get a quick reply.

[Send Clowns]

I must add the same caveat as fogbound, working for BCFT (I teach groundschool in fact).

You say slug that you have paid a non-refundable deposit. Since then they have changed the conditions. In that case whatever it says on the contract I suspect you can get your money back if you do wih to change. It might be an idea to at least threaten it even if you decide to continue with Oxford - you might grab their attention, and they may start to treat you like a client.

If you are not satisfied act like a good consumer - go elsewhere. There is no magical "Oxford dust" that makes you pass exams. That takes hard work. Oxford groundschool is good but so are most of the groundschools in the UK as far as I can ascertain, having given private tuition to struggling students who have sat courses in most of them. Of course we are the best ;)

[FlyingForFun]

Rattlesnake,

Thanks - can't remember off the top of my head what address I sent my mail to. It would either have been the address on the CAA's list of schools, or one I got off the website, though. When I get home tonight I will re-send it to the address you've give me. Check your PMs!

FFF
----------------

[T-key]

Reading through the above there seems to be a general thread of lets have a moan - but slugman have you spoken to the Modular team?
When I dealt with Oxford the sales team were useless, but talk directly to the Modular Instructors and they will solve your problems.
I studied with Oxford, and once you got past the sales team the service was excellent. Slugman - You say you are registered with Oxford, so why are you still dealing with the sales team? As a registered student forget sales and go direct to the instructors. In my day the number was 01865 840 334 - I don't suppose its changed.
Good luck with the course

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Ok, I'll try and give some info on all of my experiences at OATS. Firstly, I must say I have no bad feeling toward Oxford or anyone there. I had overall a pretty ok time, passed everything first time but had to fight my way through the Oxford system pretty damn hard.
Groundschool went smoothly, CPL in Tyler went smoothly too, my problems started with the commencement of my IR training. Lack of aircraft, tech aircraft, aircraft being taken offline to be sent to Tyler, too many students per instructor etc etc.
Im not saying that these problems are unique to Oxford but it was the way they dealt with the problems that for me, made them very unprofessional.
Now I knew for a fact there were some instructors with 4 and even 5 students, now there were many other problems that I noticed at Oxford which if ya'll want I will write and go into detail later. When I had an arranged meeting with Mr Langley, he denied this and his words were that it was "impossible" that some instructors had more than 3 students. Well I can tell you that they sure as hell did.
Basically, without going on and on the way the whole place is managed is a joke. Now I come from 6 years experience in a management role with a major carrier and I can tell you it is a shambles there.
Granted they are trying to sort it all out but maybe you can ask them if their fees have risen to cover the cost of their "new company image" which for those of you there know has meant new uniforms, name badges, decor, glossy marketing adds and the like.
Now as for them getting you a job..........make up your own mind regarding that one!

One last thing i'd like to add is that you all have the right to pick and choose who to pay your hard earnt (or borrowed) cash to and train with.
In my opinion there is no ideal FTO. When I was deciding who to train with I visited them all, spoke to them many times, spoke to current students etc.
The advise I have to all of you deciding who to train with is this.......
Thoroughly evaluate all your options, make your choice and go for it but do expect problems and hurdles and deal with them, do not let any company take you for a ride.

Cheers

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The school I went to for Multi and IR had 4 instructors and 5 aircraft. Thats a good ratio!

The CFI's office was next door to the students recreation room and his wife manned the front desk and took the money as and when.

The CFI was in the habit of talking to every student at least once a week and would walk every one over to the CAA test centre.

It was excellent for me - who by this time had 1,000hrs instructing. They had a naff A4 folded pamphlet for advertising. Were housed in a circa 1950's asbestos roof old shed with moss on the walls. Instructors wore a broad spectrum of pilots uniforms.

It was excellent.

It was cheap.

It was small.

It was overlooked by hundreds of people each year who chose a much flashier FTO on the same airfield with cool brochures, free coffee and swish looking livery on both their aircraft and their instructors.

I only mention this as an illustration of how difficult it can be to find an FTO that will work well for you. Only a year earlier I went to a FTO for a BCPL and FI rating that was poor value, gave poor service and suited me not at all. I have no monopoly on flight training wisdom.

Suffice to say, time spent in reconnaisance is rarely wasted.

Good luck,

WWW

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Oh an I forgot one thing..........if your account is not £1000 in CREDIT at OATS then your banned from flying until it is resolved, weather its your first flight or your IRT. Now thats what I call customer service!!!!

[slugman]

Result…I think !?

Oxford have been in touch and have apologised for the error. They have explained that there will now be no price rises for their modular courses and that the only change is that the CAA Exam fees are payable at the start of the course to ensure that the exams can be sat at Oxford.

T-key

It was never my intention to moan, just to try and understand for my self what the situation was/is & not get taken for a ride. I know it’s easier for people to be negative about FTOs and as WWW said what’s right is different for everybody. All of this said -will be keeping an eye on the situation v. closely.

Cheers all
Slug
:=

[badattitude781]

Wee Weasley Welshman,

Perhaps you could tell the other's what school it was that you went to?! As you said, it doesnt matter what the buildings/books were like - it is more the quality of service etc that matters in my view.

Thanks,

Mike

[superpilot68]

heared only bad things about Oxford, expensive, service sucks, plane are crap,...and the list is long.
Bristol is the best, 24 hours answer, binders sent the next day, good price and their success rate is around 100 first pass.

BRISTOL GS is No1 in PILOT TRAINING

[FlyingForFun]

Superpilot,

You can't compare Bristol and Oxford in this context. Bristol offer an excellent distance learning ground-school course, I agree - I passed all of my exams with them.

Oxford also offer a distance-learning ground-school course, which I have heard good things about. They also offer a residential course, and flying training, and integrated courses - none of which are offered by Bristol.

So, unless we are specifically talking about distance learning groundschool, any comparison between the two schools is meaningless.

FFF
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