Ryanair moves goalpost for Buzz. Surprise!!

[doggydogtrained]

Latest letter from KLM>

21 Feb 2003

Dear Colleague

I wrote to you on 31st January 2003, to advise you of the announcement of KLM to sell its shares to Ryanair with effect from 01 April 2003.

As you are also aware some changes were required by klm uk ltd in order to achieve this sa;e. Specifically, we needed to set up a new company, buzzaway ltd, and to transfer assets and all our staff into this entity by 31 march 2003. We have been working closely with your representatives on the consultation process required in this TUPE transfer. As the transfer from klm uk ltd to buzzaway ltd, does not in itself mean any changes to terms and conditions, understandably most of the focus of the two consultation sessions to date, has been on the intentions of ryanair post the purchase of the company. We are required under the TUPE process to disclose information, where it is available from the new owners on what the intentions are likely to be. To date we have provided that information within the questions and answers sent to you on 14th feb and within the consultation meetings.

You will recall that at the session on monday 4th feb in the sessions with Michael O'leary he intimated that subject to the due diligence process, ryanair would operate 12 aircraft and make in the region of 100 staff redundant.

I must now advise you that in a communication received early yesterday evening from ryanair that previous information has been substantially altered and the situation has significantly worsened.

Ryanair have confirmed that the restructuring of buzz is likely to include the following-

THE GROUNDING OF ALL BUZZ FLIGHTS FOR AT LEAST THE MONTH OF APRIL 2003

THE TERMINATION OF 10 BUZZ ROUTES FROM 31ST MARCH

THE BUZZ FLEET WILL BE REDUCED FROM 12 TO 8 AIRCRAFT, 6 737 AND 2 146.

THERE WILL BE UP TO 400 REDUNDANCIES IN BUZZ POST GROUNDING FROM MARCH 2003

THE REMAINING 200 OR SO STAFF WILL BE OFFERED INCREASED PAY AND PRODUCTIVITY ALLOWANCES.

Basically KLM have sold them down the river. Does anybody remember good old AIR UK before the dutch got involved, Stansted should have been full of union jacks not harps.

Lets just hope the take over doesn't meet regulatory approval!!

I fell sorry for the staff that have worked so hard to make a go of buzz, to now be sold off.

Thanks KLM

[Dewdrop]

If had been such a success KLM would never have sold it. You can't blame Ryanair for fighting to keep at least keep some of the jobs. The blame has to lie at the door of incompetant Buzz/KLM management.

[noblues]

Blimey - I really feel for the people of Buzz .....
I left them 2.5 years ago (having joined Air UK then KLMuk..), if only it had remained as AirUK .......
Plus now KLMuk pilots who were offered transfer back to the UK (Buzz) are stuck working for a tiny outfit flying a handful of Fokkers that KLM will doubt shaft a similar way to Buzz in the future .....
All very sad .....

[timzsta]

Once again it was on teletext before the letters arrived from KLM. Seems to be a recurring theme. I dont think anyone thought it would turn out how it now appears it will.

Good luck to everyone at Buzz, wherever your destiny lies over the coming months. As they say, as one door closes another opens...

[Anti-ice]

Check this out :

sky news link (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30400-12252738,00.html)

How nice .:rolleyes:

[Leclairage]

Thanks for that Anti-ice
What choice is there really for the travelling public in the face of beancounters making these decisions?
Or reward for the loyalty and commitment of crews and staff manifested in job security?
After all RyanAir seem to go from strength to strength financially.
What opportunities do they have now in an already troubled market?
A Very Poor Show.

But. Until they, the beancounters are held to account, they will continue to Stuff their staff for as long as they please.

I may come across as militant (which I am not) but given seeming union weakness, the guys and girls must find a way to deal with these decisions, if only by confronting those who make them.
Otherwise it is BA swallowing B Cal, DanAir, et al all over again.

[Mindthegap]

how the f..k do u guys know how it is to work for Ryanair. If U search hrough the forums U wont find 1 pilot who speaks badly or in a negative way about Ryanair. All pilots that I work with are contempt, happy, well pay´d, and dont want to move. So how do U get off talking about Ryanair like that. It is a disgrace how U try to make your "brothers" who work for Ryanair look bad. I must speak out now because im appalled that peple who doesn´t know anything about Ryanair feel they have to say anything they heard on the corner bar or what a friend of a friend said. Its all roumors and nothing is substantial for any allegation. I am very happy with Ryanair and so are all my co-workers. The Buzz guys will be very weel pay´d, forseeable Roster and with a moneymaking company, what more do U want. And Im sure if there will be any union action MOL will close the company down. It is as simple as that, because he has alredy got what he wants and anything else is a bonus.

[flyhalf]

Sad news for the Buzz contingent. The only potential light on the horizon is that if Ryanair is dropping routes to "high cost" airports, then it doesn't necessarily mean that the routes themselves were unprofitable and there is hope for another carrier to come along and take them over.

Mindthegap, judging by the distressingly poor standard of spoken English over the PA on some recent Ryanair flights on which I have travelled, I would be pleasantly surprised if anything approaching a majority of Ryanair pilots could actually conduct a written discussion on PPrune in English.

[sum41]

Flyhalf
That just goes to show you how well the Ryans treat there guys
if so many from europe and other parts of the world want to fly
with them

[Leclairage]

Thanks for your views Mindthegap. Alas you seem to have missed the thrust of my point.
All the Buzz guys and gals who ae lucky enough to be re-hired by Ryanair may well have a fantastic time.
I am more concerned with the 400 out of 600 who, it appears, will not be so lucky as to transfer to the new owners.
'I'm all right, Jack' is exactly the attitude the beancounters seem to exploit, and you would appear to fit into this category. I am not really sure how you actually display your apparent concern for your 'brothers'

[maxy101]

Sum41 ....Or it could be that there are not enough flying jobs in their countries? Let's not forget which country is the most economically dynamic and open in Europe as well as welcoming non incumbents with relatively open arms.

[timzsta]

Mind the gap - I sympathise with a lot of what you say, there is a lot of rubbish said about Ryanair. But like many of my colleagues I face the real prospect of collecting my P45 next week and being unemployed.

I may only be a humble check in agent and "wannabee" but I have bills to pay, things like my car insurance and tax, exam fees to the CAA, rent etc. It is all very well when you have, as you rightly say, a good job, well payed in a profitable company. When you have the very imminent and real prospect of no job, bills to pay, families to support things are a bit different. Please learn to look at things objectively - I thought that was a quality required in abundance of an airline pilot.

[Dewdrop]

I'll try saying it again, the problem with buzz was with its own management and that of KLM. They thought they knew how to run a low cost operation.... they didn't. So let aim the bullets where they are deserved, not at Ryanair who are at least trying to salvage something !

[Few Cloudy]

Lengthy quote from the Evening Standard finance bit - 4.Feb!...

Ryanair slashes routes and jobs
Malcolm Withers, Evening Standard 4 February 2003

RYANAIR chief executive Michael O'Leary is to slash his airline's destinations across Europe in an attempt to beat off rival easyJet in a battle for supremacy of Europe's budget airline market.


The cuts are likely to hit 21 airports across Europe as Ryanair withdraws or cuts staff while O'Leary tries to squeeze a profit by April out of Buzz, the loss-making budget-airline offshoot of Dutch carrier KLM he bought last week for £4m.


O'Leary said he will meet Buzz staff this month to tell them that at least 100 of its 500 employees will be made redundant. He also threatened to close Buzz immediately, while retaining its airport slots, if its remaining staff fail to adopt Ryanair's labour practices.


Ryanair and Buzz currently duplicate on three destinations - Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Paris - while Buzz also services a series of secondary French destinations such as Limoges, Poitiers, Caen, Brest and Dijon, which have proved popular with Londoners travelling to their second homes in France.


Margins have come under pressure as growth rates fall from their previous highs in the rapidly maturing European budget airline industry.


Ryanair's move for Buzz, which adds 23 destinations to the 32 airports Ryanair currently serves across Europe, is vital to compete with easyJet, the rival airline founded by Stelios Haji-Ioannou, which itself bought Go last year.


Following the Buzz acquisition, the two groups are head-to-head to dominate the budget airline skies over Europe. Ryanair expects to carry 16.5m passengers in the year to 31 March against the 17.2m travelling with easyJet.


Buzz will be rebranded Ryanair by 1 April, and O'Leary forecasts the cuts, improved marketing, efficient aircraft turnarounds and giving Buzz an all-Boeing 737 fleet will turn this year's expected e30m (£19.7m) Buzz deficit into a e10m profit within 13 months. The market was not convinced and Ryanair shares were down 23p at 416p.


Ryanair also announced passenger traffic in the third quarter ended 31 December grew 46% to 3.9m. Profit after tax increased by 50% to e43.1m on sales up 37% to e185.9m. It predicts full-year income of e235m, up slightly from the e230 forecast in November.

©2003 Associated Newspapers Ltd. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use

[Final 3 Greens]

BEagle

I dare say many of the hundreds of ex-buzz passengers from the Friday night UK2294s will be doing the same thing.

But sadly, not from STN, so Fr's route enjoys less competition.

Business is a ruthless world and I just feel very sorry for the people at Buzz and their families who will be feel the effects of these events, however smart the decision may be at a strategic level.

[Long Haul]

I don't really follow the logic of how it is KLM's fault that Ryanair is making people redundant.

[Wet Power]

Senior Buzz managers went to KLM asking if they could organise a management/investment company buyout (similar to what Cassani did at GO).

The Dutch were not interested.

MoL's actions are unfortunate and very hard but the blame is totally at the door of KLM for their gross mis-management of Air UK Ltd since the takeover.

[doggydogtrained]

obviously a couple of you have missed the point here, people are more P!$$£d off with the fact that KLM were apparently going to make a go of BUZZ and then suddenly a major u-turn resulting in 100's of job losses.

Dewdrop: As far as staff were aware, Buzz was fast approaching breaking even point, so yes i agree it is a management problem, unfortunately since KLM bought AirUK they have supplied Dutch management that do not know thew british market, bring back Andrew Grey.

Mindthegap: Luckily some of us dont work and indeed dont want to know what it is like to work for a company where the command of english is as well used as professionalism. By the way the word contempt means:a strong feeling of combined dislike and lack of respect, STUPID! go back to school!!


On a more serious note as this is what this forum is about, I feel sorry that some 400 people will lose there jobs.

[banditland]

Where has the KLM statment letter gone?
Spare a thought for the handling agents around Europe.

[buzz boy]

Longhaul:

I seem to remember your comments when the whole KLMuk split whas first talked about some time ago.

The reason this is all KLMs fault is because of gross mis management and because of the damndright sefishness and inflexibility of the VNV and KLM mainline pilots.

The employees of KLMuk were made promises of investment and careers in BUZZ which was obviously a blatant LIE. This kind of sale and pull out doesnt happen overnight, it was only three months after the split of the workforce. Most KLCuk pilots had bid to transfer to BUZZ after the VNV and KLM mainline pilots stole any carreer prospects from them. As has been said many times before we have people with up to 30 years service in AirUK/KLMuk, the blue side of the operation provided 26% of KLMs longhaul passengers keeping you and your fellow mainliners in jobs, what were they offered? IF they were below the age of 46 and passed a file check they could go to the bottom of the mainline seniority list, and after a short time DEMOTED to a position that was in line with their new seniority!! No wonder 80% of KLCuk pilots bid to transfer to buzz and out of 230 odd KLC uk pilots only 21 took the mainline option.

The pilots that were already in BUZZ had to make their decision whether to transfer to KLC uk by 1st November last year, given the promises of investment and careers in BUZZ nearly all decided to stay. Dont you think this is some kind of constructive dismissal?

The only thing that does make me smile is the egg on the face of the VNV!! They had promised F100 commands to their pilots as they almost guaranteed that most KLCuk pilots would be moving to BUZZ, now those KLCuk pilots will not be going so none of our commands for you!!

Can i ask what kind of support you and your fellow mainline pilots will be offering to your fellow KLM employees at BUZZ? I suspect nothing....... however dont ever assume this will not happen to you!! The BA merger talks havent gone away then just maybe you will be forced to come down off your mantle and think about your career and where you will fit in the combined airline, you and the VNV have set the ground rules... you may find you have to live by them.

Longhaul and all KLM mainline pilots..... its not to late to help here, the BUZZ pilots are a loyal and good bunch who need support, perhaps now is the time for you to show your solidarity with them and force KLM to employ them within the KLM groupAS PILOTS.

[Dewdrop]

DogyDogtrained - Buzz made a 30 million loss last year and was fast approaching a loss of 30 million this year, it was no where near making a profit. Gone are the days when large national carriers could hike up prices to make badly run airlines make money. KLM were way out of their depth, in a game where they didn't understand the rules.
The two biggest low cost carriers are Bl***dy good at what they do, we should recognise that. Buzz was an accident waiting to happen, our thoughts go out to all those who may lose their jobs.

[freightdoggy dog]

Dewdrop,
I may be wrong, but looking from the outside in, Ryanair looks like a classic South-Sea bubble. It has to keep expanding or the concentric circle will end up in a big black hole devouring all around? Evelyn Waughs' novel Decline and Fall is spot on with all that Mill Owner Leary is achieving, I just hope he has read the last chapter! It is obvious that they are good at being cr@p Dewdrop, because no punter expects anything else when they pay ****** all to fly to nowhere. Tough on Buzz employees but if you haven't got the message, all he wants are your slots at STN and the aoc for eastern europe, not you. Sad but very true in the world that MOL lives in.:yuk:

[Dewdrop]

Yea 20 million passengers a year, name me another airline that wouldn't like to be that crap. Wake up !!!!

[AJ]

Au contraire Freightdoggy, I think the bubble which has burst is that of the US majors and their extremely high labour costs (yes, that includes the bubble of extraordinarily high flightcrew pay at the higher end of the scale). There's one hell of a bubble burst (esp.United) if ever I saw one.

There are plenty of opportunities left out there for the low-co's - the party hasn't even started yet. Wait until the centrals & Baltics join the EU club in 2004 - easyjet & co are going to have a field day. Provided they tread a cautious path, the future looks reasonably bright. The Southwests, Jetblue's and Airtran's are still going strong.

As Rigas Doganis says, the low-cost airline, is the airline of the future. Yes, I'd agree there's also a bit of a low-cost bubble at the moment, and we've already perhaps seen that starting to burst, what with the demise of Go and buzz (and Debonair too, let's not forget...)

Mr O'Leary may not be the popular one amongst some circles, but he can run an airline - whatever anyone says. As for the "from the outside" comments - well, that's just it, isn't it? Most ppruners only see the airline from the outside. The contrast in attitudes & comments between those ppruners (and other commentators) who don't work for the airline, and those that do is rather telling I think (read some of the comments from the FR pilots on pprune; I have to say I'm surprised they even bother to log-on here, given the comments written about them, and from a point of complete ignorance too....)

It's too bad for the buzz employees - appears they've been shafted more than once. I totally sympathise with their predicament. Unfortnately, life's cr*p, and it's especially tough in this industry. One has to move on, and get on with life - that's the reality. This isn't going to help those who now face redundancy, but mouthing off and firing angry shots at Ryanair won't help either. As someone pointed out above, buzz were a sinking ship from the start - what were the alternatives? It was going to go down at some stage - at least not everyone will go down with her now.

Best of luck to all buzz employees - it's a raw deal - but look up, and continue to pursue your dreams! ;)

[ORAC]

The Times:

THE holiday plans of more than 100,000 people have been thrown into disarray because Ryanair is tearing up the schedule of Buzz, the rival budget airline that it took over last month. The Irish airline has cancelled all Buzz flights in April and is poised to cut key holiday destinations from the summer timetable.

People who bought cheap tickets in advance will now have to rebook more expensive ones or accept an alternative Ryanair flight to a different airport. Thousands of families, who bought properties in remote parts of France served by the Stansted-based Buzz, such as Bergerac, Limoges, and Dijon, may find their airports deleted from Ryanair’s schedule.

Several of Buzz’s 21 routes, including Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt, are likely to be dropped permanently............

A Buzz spokesman said that passengers would receive a refund if their flight was cancelled but claims for compensation would be rejected. KLM, Buzz’s Dutch parent company which sold it for £15 million, advised passengers not to book Buzz flights beyond March until Ryanair had revealed which routes would survive. It described Ryanair’s failure to inform passengers of its intentions as irresponsible.

Only 55,000 people who had booked with Buzz from Bournemouth have been told that their flights are definitely cancelled. A group of these passengers is planning legal action to recover losses on hotel and car hire bookings.Buzz refused to give any details of how many passengers had booked tickets for April, saying that Ryanair now controlled the release of all information.

A Ryanair spokesman said: “You will have to speak to Buzz. We will be announcing details of the reorganisation before the end of February.”

Meanwhile, union leaders representing 570 Buzz employees consulted lawyers yesterday after the Irish airline indicated it would make 400 staff redundant. Michael O’Leary, Ryanair’s chief executive, had promised earlier this month to save 400 jobs at Buzz. But the GMB union said that Ryanair was now planning to remove a quarter of Buzz’s pilots, 80 per cent of the cabin crew and half the ground services staff.

[sum41]

FROM THE FIRST OF APRIL BUZZ WILL BE FLYING ON RYANAIR ROUTES. THE 146 WILL FLY ON SOME OF THE 200 ROUTES LIKE KIR, LDY, DNR ETC FREEING UP SOME OF THE 200 FOR THE NEW ROUTES AND A THIRD AIRCRAFT FOR PIK. IT IS VERY SAD TO SEE SO MANY PEOPLE LOSE JOBS BUT IF THE BUZZ GUYS AND GIRLS WANT TO MOVE TO THE RYANS THEY CAN. WITH SO MANY NEW AIRCRAFTS ON THE WAY THEY NEED DRIVERS FROM SOMEWHERE.
LETS HOPE THEY DO MOVE OVER AND KEEP THE QUALITY OF LIFE THEY ARE USE TO.

[ghost-rider]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2800471.stm

Good luck to all 'ex'-Buzz staff ! Looks like you'll need it ! :(

RYR strike again ! :rolleyes:

[flaps8]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Worry not lads, BALPA will save the day!

[19F]

Go and read everything direct from the horse's mouth at: http://www.ryanair.com/press/2003/feb/stm-en-260203.html

[Ringo]

Rayanair claim that up to 80% of buzz cabin crew are to be made redundant, to be replaced with Ryanair cabin crew, is this legal?

I thought the job had to be redundant not the person.

[Slim20]

I hope all the boys and girls at the airline formerly known as Go are reading this. I bet your now thanking your lucky stars that Easyjet got there before ryanair.

They may be cut from the same cloth, but easyjet are disorganised rather than ruthless. It just leaves enough room for doubt that they might not really hate us after all......

[brabazon]

Cyrano

I think Ryanair have been somewhat economical with the truth when it comes to their frequency and fare comparisons. According to "Working Lunch" on the BBC yesterday, Buzz were none too happy with the use of winter schedule frequencies in Ryanair's comparison and the fact that some of the Buzz fares quoted were far higher than those currently available.


Can someone answer a few quick questions. Have Ryanair actually paid anything to KLM yet? Do they own Buzz? If not how can they announce all these things in advance of owning the airline. Also do any lawyers out there know how they stand with respect to TUPE - do they not have to respect workers' terms and conditions. As someone pointed out can they make Buzz cabin crew redundant and then use Ryanair crew in their place?

[Config]

I don't know if anyone else will join me in saying that nearly all Ryanair threads become so boringly repeatative. Maybe I am fuelling the point myself by mentioning it. We hear the HHN arguement everytime (boring!) Who cares whether you are not going to use this service? Thousands do, and will come back and use it again. Comments like this are such an insignificant waste of time on a thread.

Back to the point... It is very sad that some employees will be laid off. It seems to me from the constructive information on the thread that allmay have lost jobs if Buzz had continued as they were. Who knows? I hope that anyone having to walk out the door may have the opportunity to walk into Ryanair. They are certaining recruiting on mass at the moment. I know MOL does not understand this language, but it would be a good will gesture on Ryanair's part. Having said that, those concerned may not want to join Ryanair, but at least it will pay the bills for a few months until something better comes along.

Some worrying times ahead... Good luck to all...

[XSBaggage]

I agree with Config, this thread was about the situation at buzz, and has become another repetitive debate about FR. I succumbed to the temptation to join in this argument, but I do wish everyone at buzz well.

It seems that people are talking about the low cost sector becoming saturated. MOL himself said he saw only 2 low costs (FR and EZY) surviving, and that was a few years ago. Hopefully Jet2, MYT Lite, bmibaby etc have got their sums right and no more jobs are put at risk.

[AJ]

Config & Xcess, I totally agree.

Ryanair's style is aggressive; that suits some pple, not others. All airlines will inevitably get some flak - rightly so, as no one's perfect.

Ryanair aren't perfect either, and yes, I think some of the flak they get is deserved; I know the pple at Ryanair read pprune, and hopefully they will go away with some idea of their weaknesses.

On the other hand, a lot of the ranting is unjustified and based on "I have a friend who is a Ryanair pilot, and apparently".......I think you'll forgive me if I say that sounds just a *little* superficial.

It's a tough cop for the buzz folk, but this sort of thing will not go away; the EU is determined on creating a free market in all areas, including aviation. That means more consolidation in this sector is inevitable. I'm afraid we will be seeing more job losses in the future (though perhaps those jobs may well be (in part) re-absorbed by the replacement company).

This industry is extremely capital intensive; it is mighty difficult to make money in the airline business, and margins are crap even at the best of times. Until we have a truly liberalised air mkt, and consolidation has taken its fullest toll, we're still in for quite a ride.

I'm not trying to be a merchant of doom, or depress anyone out there who is thinking of joining the industry, but it pays to face the reality of the situation. I'm not confident all of Britain's low-cost carriers will survive. Ezy and Ryan are riding high, but things can & do go wrong. Let's tread with caution....

[Alberville]

I wish all the real workers at buzz the best of luck for the future.

I worked for Air uk/KLM uk/buzz from '97 - '00 and can honestly say that i had the plesure of working with some of the best guys in the business.

All you Muppets in Endevour House are getting good at screwing over your "Dear Colleagues"!

[timzsta]

KLM re-introducing a STN-AMS shuttle is, perhaps not surprisingly, being rumoured.

Firstly they p*$%£d a lot of passengers off when they axed the route and had Buzz operate it. And I mean quality passengers, the Royal and Silver Wings.

Secondly a lot of KLM Uk crew position to AMS with Buzz as they did on the KLM Uk F100 before October. If they went on the Norwhich on London City routes the sheer number of them would make these routes unprofitatble. Some flights the reach double figures. You just cant take that many of the seats away on the Fokker 50's out of City and still have a profitable route.

On MOL plans, he will do what he says he will do. Anyone who things the Unions/Lawyers can stop him is naive. He would not have embarked down this route without having got advice from his legal team that what he is proposing will stand up in a court of law. Its sad for us Buzz employees but thats the way it is. Congrats to these who have already got employment elsewhere.

[birdshit]

Big shame for the decent ground staff, cabin crew and some very good pilots at Buzz.

But at last the fatcats at the top of the most holy seniority list are finally getting a taste of unemployment, which is entirely what they deserve!!... Talk about a wake up call, just you guys remember the ATR people a few years ago who you could not have cared less about when they were facing unemployment, or the shafted direct entry TP captains who all you 'sky god' SFO's refused to fly with if they were promoted to the jet - well, a fokker 100 anyway!

Well, good luck with your unemployment lads and I just hope none of you Fecks end up in my sim because you're humbling is only just beginning....

Failte to Ryanair


:cool:

[Herod]

Well, now there's a balanced attitude; a chip on both shoulders. Yes, I'm facing being out of a job, yes, I'm near the top on the seniority list, but I can proudly look back on some twenty-four years working for buzz and its predecessors. Some of us were probably building this airline by digging Air Anglia's Friendships out of the snow while you were still wearing nappies. Don't worry about the simulator; if you're as bitter as you sound I will be walking out anyway.

[G SXTY]

Best of luck to you Herod. I always looked forward to flying with Air UK / KLMUK / Buzz, something I couldn't say about Ryanair.

You guys deserved better.

[unwiseowl]

Quite a spectacular first posting from bird****. It would be nice if he couyld also make it his last.

[ramsrc]

G SXTY

Here here!

Couldn't agree more.

[Aaron G. Stryngge]

"Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome aboard Yellow Airways for our flight today... Should any of you have any concerns about our takeover by Harptailed Air, you will find our Chief Executive sitting in Row 3C, so please feel fee to ask him any questions you like. I would, however, caution you not to believe a word he says, since he dumped on us from a great height. Enjoy the flight!"

:eek: :eek: :D :D

[Captain Rodders]

Missed the bit about arriving at the aircraft by taxi.

Remember what goes around, comes around.

Cap

[brownstar]

Bird**** - with that attitude you realy shouldn't be in aviation, if indeed you are a pilot!

[Dewdrop]

This arguement keeps going around and around. Buzz may be losing 400 jobs but FR are saving 200 of them, KLM would have ditched the lot !

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Ryanair may still ditch all buzz jobs.

So far Ryanair have said they will buy buzz, although no money has changed hands. Since the beginning of Feb, their press releases and plans for the company have well and truly sunk any chance of buzz being able to opreate on it's own. As an independant brand it is worthless.

MO'L can turn around tomorrow and say no deal, and guarentee that buzz will fold within a few weeks. One less competitior, and a pool of type rated pilots that he can then employ on his T&C's. And it won't have cost him much.

[Final 3 Greens]

Timzsta

Firstly they p*$%£d a lot of passengers off when they axed the route and had Buzz operate it. And I mean quality passengers, the Royal and Silver Wings.

How true.

I was a Silverwing holder, on the cusp of Royal. STN/AMS was a great way of connecting for me as I live nearby and changing at AMS was no more inconvenietn than havng to get to Heathrow of Gatwick.

I couldn't believe it when the route was handed over to a point to point airline, severing connections.

Being forced to fly via LHR or LGW was really annoying and I have not taken a KLM flight since, because (a) they have seriously annoyed me (b) KLM cannot compete with BAs route network out of LGW/LHR (ie no connection required.)

In the last month I have booked 8 business class sectors around Europe.

[Dewdrop]

A very civil pilot - Do you really think Buzz were a serious competitor to FR ? Its a sad situation, but Buzz was only bought because KLM were desperate to sell it, you can't blame FR for trying to tidy up the mess, any pain caused has to lay at the door of KLM.

I can hear the responses now, "great airline" "great people" etc, etc and I'm sure they are all true, but as a business it was C%?p.

[eng123]

Very civil pilot,I can tell you for a FACT that what you are suggesting is not the case.

[A Very Civil Pilot]

No I don't consider buzz to be a threat to FR, but since KLC was split off in November there were big intentions to expand 4-fold over the next few years, in a market that FR had very little prescence (France). If low cost operators are creating a market simply by the cost of their tickets, someone flying to France with buzz for a cheap weekend away, is not doing the same with FR. Now if you want to do it, you are more likely to fly with FR.

As for pulling out of a deal, I certainly hope that is not the case. M O'L has stated he will possibly shut down buzz if the unions don't agree with his plans; it will be far cheaper from his point of view to walk away now, than have to face the legal cost of buzz closing.

I'm hoping for a positive future, but am still planning for the worst, as I await for my redundancy notice to arrive.

[Dewdrop]

A very civil pilot - I don't think MOL is worried about legal costs but the delay in implementing his rescue plan would be a concern.
As a pilot your chances should be good aren't they, do you fly 737 or 146. If the opportunity comes grab it !

[buzz boy]

Bird****, u really are an a$$hole!

I cannot believe that someone relishes so much in other peoples misery and misfortune, these people have families to support etc.....

get a life......

[A Very Civil Pilot]

M O'L doesn't have a rescue plan as such. He wants to take over the company, and use it's assets for his own ends- UK AOC for non EU flights, or else shut it down.

As for a job with them, I don't know where I stand. I'm a 737 pilot, but am expecting a P45. Those of us that will be offered jobs are being seriously coerced to accept new T&C or else face the sack.

UK employment law is being ignored, but if M O'L has to abide by it, may well be enough for him to walk away from the deal.

[doggydogtrained]

WELL LETTERS ARE IN THE POST TODAY APPARENTLY TELLING US OUR FATE!!

Is it a coincidence that they have sent the letters out on a friday again so everyone has yet another crap weekend, and cannot speak to anyone.

[stormin norman]

My sympathy goes out to everyone at Buzz.A great bunch of people doing a great job.

Mo'L has not the slightest interest in anybodies welfare except
his own, and at some time in the future he'll sell Ryanair staff
down the river as well, just give him time.Reminds me of some greek bloke in an orange outfit who's now done a runner.

Bring back Freddie laker !

[timzsta]

My letter arrived in the post this morning. My services are not required any longer. Luckily I have been offered a job elsewhere at STN with another company, but will still be taking a significant cut in wages. No redundancy entitlement. Many of my colleagues dont have a job to go to. We are all devasted. The numbers involved are far worse then invisiged. I will miss you all at Buzz. See you all at the massive party at the end of the month. Ryanair may have taken my job but you will never get my memories.

[Stosser]

Timzsta

I am truly sorry for your colleagues and you.

Having been a regular pax with Air UK from the early days, through KLMuk to the present times, I can never think of an occasion where CC or flight deck were anything other than pleasant and helpful - never patronising; Often it was above and beyond this level.

Those of us who knew you all as frequent flyers will miss you and I'd like to wish you well in your new job and hope that things work out well for you and your colleagues.

[Dewdrop]

Timzsta - I think you'll find that it was the poor performance of Buzz that cost you your job. If it had been profitable and well run KLM would still be in charge ! Hope it works out in the future.

[Wet Power]

Dewdrop

With respect to your comments about Buzz it is obvious you haven't got a clue on the subject or it's history.

Stick to your specialist subject - Ryanair.

[AJ]

Wet Power, there is no great mystery to the history of buzz. It made massive & unsustainable losses. End of story.

[BEagle]

Good luck to all buzz staff who will be voting today - and even better luck to the GMBU's action next week which might perhaps stop O'Leary trying to behave like some 19th century mill owner and instead face up to 21st century UK employment law....

Good to see how low the fares on British Midland, British Airways and even LH now are on weekend flights to Frankfurt. Real Frankfurt-am-Main, of course - not where-the-hell-is-Hahn. Hahn Airport is located approximately 124 km west of Frankfurt City in the Hunsrueck region. The airport is not connected to the public transportation system (however, it is served by a regular bus shuttle from Frankfurt-Main central station - about 2 hours.....) Try typing 'Hahn airport' into a search engine like Google and you'll find what people really think, not just RyanSpin.

[Dewdrop]

Let's hope they make the rignt decision (whatever that may be !)
Its hard when you are put in a position like this, loyalty to work mates, loyalty to family. The bottom line is usually that someone has to put food on the table.

Good luck to all involved.

[Freeway]

Can I just add to what has been previously said about the Buzz staff.
Nobody deserves to be treated and threatened the way these people ( yes Michael they are people ) have. Ryanair are guilty of intimidating and threatening the Buzz staff with redundancy if they make a stand for what they believe is only decent. What ever happened to serious and constructive negotiation.
Good luck to you all at Buzz!! Make a stand!

[Mishandled]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/03/18/nryan18.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/03/18/ixhome.html

I guess the goalposts are moved again. Could this be good news?

[Dave T-S]

Another classic MOL tactic re the landing charges - give me what I want or i'll take my ball home (remember him advertising last year for 100 or whatever secondhand 737's, getting offered around 1000 of them or something silly like that by plane brokers, then taking that as a stick to beat Boeing over the head with to get the price of new ones down, which he intended to buy in the first place:D)

[JW411]

Dave T-S:

I am somewhat puzzled by your posting. Surely the deals that MOL has done show shrewd business sense. Are you really suggesting that he should pay whatever price nice Mr Boeing asks for his product?

Do you always pay the original asking price when you buy a house or a car or have you been known to haggle?

[Dave T-S]

JW411
Sorry, didn't explain myself. It's classic MOL tactics for getting what he wants.

I *do* admire MOL in a business sense for the way he runs his airline, but won't forgive Ryanair for the fact they lost our skis for 12 days outbound and said kiss off when I claimed legitimate expenses for replacement ski hire/phone calls - within the baggage compensation limits. Ryanair are great when it all works, hang you out to dry when it goes wrong.

Unfortunately his ruthless streak in running his airline extends to the way he treats people, luckily I only had £260 at stake, the Buzz staff have their jobs at stake:(

[JW411]

Dave T-S:

No, you didn't explain yourself. I see from your profile that you are in the insurance business and now you tell us that what you are really pissed off about is that Ryaniar lost your skis for 12 days and failed to pay you handsome compensation.

Surely, as an insurance expert, you read the small print before you went?

The impression that I am getting is that you resent the fact that MOL has outsmarted you (as he has with many others).

Read the small print!

[Dave T-S]

JW411
I don't want to get in a slanging match over this.......:(

The point is I do not feel MOL plays fair in any aspects of business, certainly not where "doing the right thing" is concerned and particularly not where human beings are concerned. Personally, in the case of our skis, Ryanair had a duty of care to deliver them to our destination. They didn't. We ran up various expenses as a result of this and claimed them back from Ryanair as we were entitled under whichever baggage convention it is as printed on the tickets.

Despite the claim being legitimate, backed up by receipts etc and within the baggage compensation limits, Ryanair wrote back and said tough, not our problem, claim from your holiday insurance. I would have taken the issue to the small claims court but did not have the time to do so (this would have cost me even more).

Ryanair know this so just bluff it out with people so they give up, go away, and claim from their insurance.

As you say I am in the insurance industry (but i'm not sure what this has to do with it) however insurance is not a dustbin for all the ills of the world. If primary responsibility laid with Ryanair to make good our loss, as legislation said they were, then they should do so and not leave it to us to have to claim from our insurance. No wonder everyone pays so much for holiday insurance.........

Anyway, back to the topic, this isn't a rant against Ryanair just because they lost our skis. I live locally, see what happens with Ryanair, have Buzz employees in the family, and think it is a shame as to how Ryanair, or particularly MOL since he is Mr Ryanair, treats people in general.

Buzz was an ideal opportunity for MOL to purchase, get rid of a rival, asset strip, and close down if necessary.

All in my humble opinion, of course:D

[JW411]

I do not work for any of the parties involved but it was my understanding that it was KLM who left Buzz out to dry. Was it not KLM who stated that the pilots could go to the bottom of the Blue list or go to Yellow but, if they went to Yellow, they could not then go back to Blue?

Did KLM not make a statement that they intended to build Buzz up into a 20-aeroplane airline? This must have persuaded a lot of folks to bid for Yellow.

Was it not KLM that then pulled the rug from under them and left them to be picked off by whichever hyena happened to be circling the flock at the time?

[A Very Civil Pilot]

JW411

You are correct in stating that KLM management took buzz to the situation it was in when it was put up for sale. However since Ryanair offered to buy the airline, there has been a total disregard for the law in their treatment of the staff. We have been bullied and intimidatewd into signing new contracts, with the threat of losing our jobs if we don't. This is against the law. Ryanair have decided what they want to do, and have no care if it is illegal or not.

[JW411]

A Very Civil Pilot:

If Ryanair are in flagrant breach of TUPE then you should have no difficulty in proving your case. Sadly, there will be a time factor to be considered. In any case, I wish you luck.

On the credit side, at least you are being offered a contract (however bad it may be) to keep you going for a while. That was a luxury that was not on offer to us when Lord King and his merry men did for me and my Laker colleagues.

[Dave T-S]

A very civil pilot


However since Ryanair offered to buy the airline, there has been a total disregard for the law in their treatment of the staff. We have been bullied and intimidatewd into signing new contracts, with the threat of losing our jobs if we don't. This is against the law. Ryanair have decided what they want to do, and have no care if it is illegal or not.


I think you've said what I was clumsily trying to say.

Unfortunate the hyena circling had a harp on its tail.......:(

[eng123]

BEagle,
90% of the BUZZ pilots who have been offered a contract [on more money by the way]have agreed to joining RYR.If RYR had not bought them out,by KLM's own admission,they would have shut the airline down.Surely RYR have SAVED jobs,not lost them.
This same old argument about HHN is tiresome.Not everyone want's to go to Frankfurt city centre.The surrounding area is a wonderful part of the world.Even if you do wany to go to Frankfurt,the local public transport is scheduled to depart the airport co-inciding with RYR arrivals so you can be in Frankfurt within an hour of boarding the bus.

[Alloy]

When times change how many of those 90% will stay with FR? Good luck to all the Buzz crew.

[Herod]

If 90% of the pilots have agreed the new contracts, why is it that pilots made "redundant" are being asked to come and sign a contract ?

Perhaps time for a few facts on this thread. KLMuk is transferring pilots to buzzaway, under TUPE regulations, which means all contracts stand. Ryanair is buying 100% of the shares in buzzaway, which is still an independent legal entity, which means all contracts stand until a NEGOTIATED and MUTUALLY AGREED change. Ryanair, who will not have any legal standing with the pilots until 1st April, are illegally imposing new contracts. Among other things:

One year's probation, with one month's notice. Some pilots have been with the company over 30 years.

Lay-off without pay at any time for any reason.

Change of base at any time, anywhere in Europe, at the pilot's expense.

No union recognition.

So much for negotiation. I know people will argue that MOL is saving a dying airline, but by doing so he is tearing up the rule book of employee rights. Watch this very carefully, I'm sure your employers are and you could be next.

[herodotus]

What about the main T&C's? Pay, rosters - how do they compare with RYR "mainline" and how do they compare with the present pay - did MOL go for a cut?

[bullseyecontrolla]

Having been informed that I was to be made redundant on 31 Mar, I was fortunate enough to be offered another job. I left within a few days to start my new job. I have since received correspondence from KLM Uk stating in failing to give 1 month notice I had breached my contract of employment. I have not received my final wages nearly 3 weeks later. All very interesting.......

[ShotOne]

This is bad news for all flight crew -not just those in buzz. If ryanair get away with this then none of our contracts -including pension provision,medical and health agreements are worth the papre they are written on.

In business it sounds like a contract is a contract -but not if you're called ryanair.

[Dewdrop]

You can't say Ryanair haven't honoured contracts they enterd into. You can't expect them to take on another, failed company's liabilities. Perhaps KLM could give financial support to allow them to do so !

[A Very Civil Pilot]

Dewdrop

You can expect one company to take on anothers liabilities when it is purchased - it is the law.

I have a contract that Ryanair are buying, which on April 1 still stands and is legally binding. Ryanair have said thay will not honour it, (by insisting that I have somehow dismissed from the company before they have bought it) and only a new contract with them will be valid. This is all totally illegal, against both UK and EU employment law.

[Dewdrop]

A very civil pilot - I think you need to be clear what it was that FR bought, my understanding is that it merely purchased the assets of a defunct airline. Glad to see you got a position with the new operation though.

[brabazon]

Have Ryanair actually "bought" buzz yet, I thought the contract was due to be signed off on April 1?

[Jetbore]

Dewdrop
Ryanair have not actually bought Buzz yet, but your understanding is wrong. FR has made an undertaking to buy Buzz, an operating airline with a UK AOC, STN slots, goodwill and many staff. Buying the company means taking on all the assets and liabilities of the company, that includes the contracts of employment of it's employees. Buzz is not defunct yet although it will not recover from this episode on its own. Since the sale has been announced FR has completely undermined the business of Buzz. It may be true that Buzz is loosing money at a terrific rate, but this has mainly been brought about by recent publicity.
If FR is merely buying assets it would not be a take-over. The law is clear, present contracts of employment continue under the new ownership, they may be changed through negotiation. Any argument suggesting the law doesn't apply in these circumstances is nonsense since the law was written for exactly these circumstances.

[Dewdrop]

Jetbore. I think you're talking about a different Buzz. I'm talking about the one that has made €60 million in losses in the last two years. As far as what was purchased, I don't know the details but suspect that your assumptions are a little nieve to say the least. I don't think I suggested that the law does not apply in this case , if it was broken I asume the authorities will take appropriate action.

[In trim]

Dewdrop,

As per the other posts above, my understanding is that Ryanair have bought (or are in the process of buying) the company as a whole.....and yes that does include any debts, contracts, liabilities, etc.

Similar to BA years ago when they bought Dan-Air for £1.....but inherited all that went with it in terms of debts and liabilities.

The other posts above are correct....it is the law and those guys have legally binding contracts.

All the best to all affected.

In trim.

[unwiseowl]

Ryanair could walk away from the deal at this stage, having effecively destroyed a competiter at no cost to themselves. He wouldn't be that devious, would he?

[Earthmover]

Rather ironic that the last 'GO' flight, and the last 'buzz' flight will occur on the same day. What a shame these two didn't get together.

[PFD-Blind]

Itis amazing, how unknowingly many of you guys are bashing someone you actually do not know or not even have heard talking.

He, MOL, highly values pilots, saying that they rather want to be flying instead of hanging around on the ground (short turnaround), be at home every night (stable rostering), and well paid (look at the numbers on their web). And, he clearly said in an interview, pilots and their costs are not the problem, its how you sweat the assets. And with all respect to pilots, they make planes fly safe, but do not make them earn money (and shouldn't, to not compromise safety).

The problem is that most (mainline) airlines are indirectly run by the unions, and that does not work. Workrules are just ridiculous, impossible in most other industries. And, hey, United was employees-run, wasn't it?

And customers want to fly these airlines, the crap you get on the mainlines, like food?, is not worth the difference. Anybody who pays for his own flying, is not going to pay Euro 700 and more for BCN-LGW, when easyjet and the like are flying for Euro 100 (same airports, same airplanes, right?!).

And he is not bashing at pilots as such, he is challenging the airlines and their management, and, for sure, the unions.

(Just before you complain, I am a pilot, have an MBA, flown frequently on BA and easyJet since the early days, I am not related to neither FR nor MOL).

[Herod]

PFD's post is also the start of a new thread on Terms and Endearments. Perhaps he's being paid by the word ?